Friday’s Forum

Steven L. Taylor
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor of Political Science and a College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog). Follow Steven on Twitter


  1. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    0130 PDT. Been at the ER with daughter’s fiancee since 6pm. Apparently an episode of AFib. Hoping they’ll have him stabilized and out soon. Dentist appt in 9 hours for me. Think I’ll skip work tomorrow/today.

  2. Bill Jempty says:
  3. Bill Jempty says:

    @Flat Earth Luddite:

    0130 PDT. Been at the ER with daughter’s fiancee since 6pm. Apparently an episode of AFib.

    I have been dealing with Afib since May. Cardioversion didn’t work with me. I spent 3 days in the hospital just before Labor day. Good luck to you and your family.

  4. Bill Jempty says:

    Wife still feeds the feral cats at our condo building. She is out walking at 5 am and somebody else in the household is playing strat-o-matic baseball or reading outside the beltway.

  5. Bill Jempty says:
  6. JohnSF says:

    UK opinion poll news, latest from Deltapoll:
    Con 23% (-5)
    Lab 47% (+1)
    Lib Dem 10% (-)
    Other 20% (+3)

    Inject Me!

    Not exactly news in itself, but key is it shows roughly exactly the same figures as in July by YouGov. Zero recovery by the Conservatives, despite the hopes that Sunaks (relative) competence would win some back after the chaos of Truss and Johnson.
    Instead he keeps making clumsy political errors, largely because he’s scared of the right wing rebelling.
    Conservatives who look to be pegged back to their core vote; and even that has been peeled at the margins by Reform (effectively, heirs to UKIP) and by former liberal Cons shifting to the LibDem camp.

    I feel safe in my (hardly genius level) prediction: come the election, the Tories are going to get hammered into the ground like f’in tent-pegs. 🙂

  7. OzarkHillbilly says:
  8. MarkedMan says:

    @JohnSF: I would assume this means there is no chance they call an early election? If so, when is the latest Election Day possible?

  9. OzarkHillbilly says:

    A good doggies story:

    A two-year-old girl who walked away from her home in Michigan’s Upper Peninsula alongside two family dogs was found in the woods hours later sleeping on the smaller dog like a furry pillow, state police said.

    “She laid down and used one of the dogs as a pillow, and the other dog laid right next to her and kept her safe,” Lt Mark Giannunzio said on Thursday. “It’s a really remarkable story.”

  10. MarkedMan says:

    I highly recommend this Atlantic piece about General Milley and his term as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs under Trump. It’s a lengthy read and while the stuff about him personally is interesting enough, it serves as a reminder of just how unfit Trump is, in every way imaginable. Yes, the Republic held, but those doing that work to keep us from, literally, nuclear annihilation, were for the most part gone by the end of his term, replaced by a collection of loons and schemers, as unfit and incompetent as Trump himself. A second term would start off with such trash in the top tier positions.

  11. JohnSF says:

    The last possible an for an election is 28 January 2025.

    But odds against that are overwhelming: UK electorate traditionally hate winter polls, and tend to punish a government that goes for one.
    And experience is that every time a government leaves things to the last, something unexpected turns up, and they lose all control of the agenda.

    In practice, the last realistic dates are October 2024.

    There is some chatter that they might bite the bullet and go in May, on the basis that nothing is going to get better, and some things (e.g. rise in migrant Channel crossings in summer) may get worse.
    I’m doubtful.
    I think they expect falling inflation and interest rates to ease some of the economic pain from now onward, and will want to give that balm time to soothe the burns.

    Also at this point the main thing is how the Conservatives shape their strategy. I think anyone sentient at Central Office can see they’re heading for a shoeing. The need is to limit the damage enough to make a return to power after one term a possibility.

    Their problem is the rise of Reform (UKIP mk.2) has peeled off around 5% ? of votes they might expect otherwise.
    So, do they tack right, shore themselves up to 30% hopefully. There is going to be a lot of pressure from the Tuton tanks, the backbench right, party activists and the “party in the press” to try this.

    Mistake, IMO, because they will also alienate the remaining liberal Cons and undecided floating voters, and end up marooning themselves with unrealistic policies, tied to a demographically shrinking core vote, and give Labour chance to form a new governing consenus that can appeal to a 60% center/left total vote!
    GB News, the Daily Telegraph, and a party of pensioners, will be weak reeds to cling to in the face of that sort of tide.

    But in the words of Napoleon: “Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.”

  12. OzarkHillbilly says:

    ‘Feels horrible to say no’: abortion funds run out of money as US demand surges

    Three-quarters of US abortion patients have incomes below the federal poverty line. The cost of an abortion, meanwhile, has perhaps never been higher: more and more people have to travel for the procedure, buying flights and gas, booking hotel rooms, taking time off work. More than 60% of people who have had abortions have already given birth before, so they may also need to secure childcare.

    Although the vast majority of US abortions take place in the first trimester of pregnancy, abortion fund callers are more often in their second trimester, according to a study of callers to the National Network of Abortion Funds between 2010 and 2015. Post-Roe, people who work at abortion funds told the Guardian that they are now seeing even more people who are later on in their pregnancies – which becomes a problem both for abortion seekers and the funds, because abortion becomes more expensive later in pregnancy. It also becomes harder to find – not every clinic will perform abortions into the second trimester – so people often have to travel even further.

    From July 2021 through June 2022, the Missouri Abortion Fund spent about $235,000 helping people get abortions. Between July 2022 and June 2023, they spent over $1m – but they only helped 300 more people than the previous year, said Jess Lambrecht, the fund’s executive director. The typical client used to cost less than $1,000; now, they frequently cost multiple thousands of dollars.

    “Basically, our budget tripled, but so has our cost,” Lambrecht said.
    For now, the Mississippi Reproductive Freedom Fund’s phone line is still open; the organization is redirecting people towards other, open abortion funds. But the phone line will be shut down entirely for the month of December.

    “I know we are making the right decision, but it feels horrible to tell people no,” Roberts said. But, Roberts added, “If we’re not making strategic plans to make sure that we’re sustaining ourselves and sustaining fundraising, we’re not gonna make it. We won’t be here next year and we won’t be here the year after that and I want to make sure we’re still here. There’s not less of a fight to fight. It’s just getting more intense.”

    They are all in trouble.


  13. de stijl says:

    I inadvertently bought turkey pepperoni. Hormel. Didn’t notice until I opened the package. I was truly super bummed out and disappointed, mostly in myself.

    The only other instance I’ve eaten turkey as a substitute for other, better meats was one time I decided to try turkey bacon on a whim, almost a self-dare. That expirement failed terribly. Turkey bacon is inherently unsatisfying. It’s un-bacon-y.

    The turkey pepperoni isn’t half bad. I was shocked. Very pleasantly surprised it did not suck. If you eat a slice directly out of the package it tastes exactly like what you expect pepperoni to taste like – the texture is a wee bit off, not enough fat, but it is perfectly serviceable and adequate. Hormel nailed the taste profile.

    On a pizza it looks a bit odd when baked, but it tastes fine.

    I’m not going to buy it again, but it is a fine product and doesn’t suck.

    Side note: nearly everyone says Hormel as if it were vaguely French hor MELL, but a lot of the locals in Austin, MN (the headquarters and at least three separate processing plants) say Hormel like it rhymes with normal.

  14. Kathy says:

    @de stijl:

    Turkey bacon is more like Canadian bacon than real bacon.

    I use it now and then in some recipes, but I’ve never been under the illusion that ir can sub for actual bacon. In fact, soy based imitation bacon bits, for use as salad topping, tastes more like bacon. Nowhere near the same, but it’s marketed honestly as an imitation.

    At that, cured, maybe smoked, processed turkey flesh would be a hard sell.

  15. MarkedMan says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Thanks for sharing this. I just sent them a donation. Here’s the link for anyone else interested in helping.

  16. MarkedMan says:

    This Politico pundit agrees with those of us who were commenting that Murdoch’s “retirement” is a sham.

    The idea that Murdoch would give up power before he dies defies everything we’ve learned about him. The idea that he would give up power even after he dies is equally preposterous. Murdoch didn’t build his media empire only to have his children piss it away after he passes. The only way the announcement makes sense is if he’s designed it to boost the status of his chosen heir, son Lachlan Murdoch, the current executive chair and CEO of Fox and now sole chair of News Corp., so he can motor it further down the path Rupert charted.

  17. Scott says:

    I’m glad the Justice Department is “weaponized” against conservative Republicans:

    Sen. Bob Menendez charged with taking bribes to help business cronies, Egyptian government

    A federal grand jury in New York indicted Sen. Bob Menendez (D-N.J.) and his wife, charging the two with bribery in connection with their relationship with three New Jersey businessmen, according to an indictment unsealed Friday.

    Federal prosecutors accused the couple of accepting hundreds of thousands of dollars in bribes in cash, gold, a luxury vehicle and home mortgage payments in exchange for using the senator’s position to benefit the businessmen and the government of Egypt. The two were charged with conspiracy to commit bribery, conspiracy to commit honest services fraud and conspiracy to commit extortion.

    Best outcome is the Menendez resigns immediately so a replacement can be made.

  18. de stijl says:


    Turkey isn’t bad per se. It’s just uninteresting. It is basically flavorless lean meat protein that takes up flavor well. Smoked turkey is awesome.

    It’s so lean you need to spice it hard, smoke it, or sauce it to make it less boring. Maybe all of the above. The thighs are the best part. The thighs are always the best part of any fowl.

    Pan fried turkey breast cutlets with salt, pepper, a bit of cumin with a blueberry/rosemary sauce is sublime.

  19. becca says:

    @Flat Earth Luddite: has your future SIL had Covid recently? My husband developed Afib during a bout with Covid. He’s waiting to be scheduled for cardioversion. Really sorry it didn’t work for you, but I sure hope it works for him. Did you undergo ablation?

  20. Rick S says:

    @de stijl: I grew up believing that breast meat was the best part of chicken. I became an adult and learned that I had been mistaken.

  21. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @MarkedMan: I’m going to set up a monthly donation. It won’t be for much because I am definitely not rich, but over a year it will add up.

  22. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Scott: I was just about to post that up. Good news indeed, long overdue. Somebody else was saying they didn’t think he would resign as he beat the charges the last time around and will probably think he can do it again.

  23. Kathy says:

    Next day reply @Erik.

    My problem is that things happen regardless of perception. Maybe I’m just getting things wrong. If it’s the space between galaxies that’s expanding at near light speed, then maybe neither galaxy is moving away from the other, it just seems that way. That I can almost grasp.

  24. MarkedMan says:


    est outcome is the Menendez resigns immediately

    Remember, though, this dirtbag was tried and should have been convicted once before, until a bizarre Supreme Court ruling on another case that basically said we must accept it when a Politician says something was just a gift from a personal friend unless the tit-for-tat is put in writing, and so the legs were kicked out from underneath the prosecution.

    I remember wondering how the Supremes could be so incredibly naive, but now we know it was their own corruption that led to that ruling.

  25. Beth says:

    @de stijl:
    @Rick S:

    I can’t eat poultry thighs. I think they are incredibly gross and slimy. I could happily eat chicken breast sandwiches every day for the rest of my life.

    I’ve come to realize that I’m a somewhat picky eater. I suspect it has something to do with my parents forcing me to eat things that hurt me; an incredibly spicy for a child vindaloo that I won’t touch to this day, liver & onions, fish. I just can’t handle a lot of foods. Lol, I joke that my digestive system faints at the sight of water it’s that weak.

    I suspect that this is also related to my absolute refusal to fight with my own kids about food. As long as they have something “nutritious” and aren’t eating candy all the time I won’t fight with them. At all.

  26. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Jason S. Campbell

    Matt Walsh rails against universal voting rights: “It’s not fundamental to your human nature that you automatically are entitled to have a say over the political system in your country”

  27. Beth says:


    I just saw another petition for cert that takes that even farther. Basically arguing that all anti-corruption laws are unconstitutional. That will probably be successful.

  28. Beth says:


    I just saw another petition for cert that takes that even farther. Basically arguing that all anti-corruption laws are unconstitutional. That will probably be successful.

  29. Beth says:


    On a fundamental level the anti-trans bigots like Walsh are anti-woman. That’s their actual end game. They prime the pump by being anti-trans as a ruse to win support. “Oh, we’re just protecting women from those evil vile trannys.” And the next step will be forcing women into “biological clothing” and then out of society. We’re just the canaries in the coal mine.

  30. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Beth: My folks had a rule that one did not have to eat everything on the plate, but one did have to try it, even if one did not like it the last time they had tried it. Then if you still didn’t like it, OK but you aren’t getting anything else to replace it.

    Over time I found that things I hated as a child, I now like very much: Cheese, asparagus, Brussel’s sprouts, grapefruit, and more. I still hate KFC. That stuff is just vile.

    So I’ve ended up with a very adventuresome palate. I did the same with my sons and they are the same way.

  31. becca says:

    @Flat Earth Luddite: disregard the part about you having Afib. I hope your FSIL is doing better. @Bill Jempty: hoping you are doing well, too. Did YOU have ablation.
    I need more coffee…

  32. Rick S says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I learned to like a lot of things as an adult that I hated as a kid. I also learned that my mom is not a very good cook. I always had an adventuresome pallet (which sucked when I was forced to eat from the kids menu).

  33. Beth says:


    I don’t think that’s bad. Sometimes you need to push to expand your horizons a bit, nothing wrong with that. It’s the overwhelming force brought to bear against a child that’s bad. YOU WILL EAT THIS OR ELSE is what screws people up.

    The try one bite also has two lessons, 1. Try things you might like it, 2. People aren’t here to cater to you. If you don’t like it fine, but I’m not expending more if my time to make you something special.

    I really wish people would stop thinking if their kids as objects they own.

    Also, my mom loved to make this really gross boogery asparagus. I hate asparagus so much to this day. I’ll eat it when my partner make its only because she makes it better and it makes me laugh when my pee smells funny.

  34. MarkedMan says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: With our kids, we went the “No thank you bite” route. If you wanted to say, “no thank you, I don’t want to eat this” you had to take at least one bite, however small, before you could duck out. If we served that again in the future, they wouldn’t have to repeat it.

    What fascinated me was when they were really little and for months they would only eat, say, chicken nuggets dipped in blue applesauce, and we would wait for sales and buy great quantities of the stuff and then one day out of the blue they would take a look at their plate and announce, “I don’t like this!” and boom, it was dead to them forever.

  35. CSK says:


    Those doggies deserve some nice kuicy steaks.


    Yes, yes, yes. I had recommended this piece yesterday. Glad to get some back-up. It really is outstanding.

  36. gVOR10 says:


    I remember wondering how the Supremes could be so incredibly naive, but now we know it was their own corruption that led to that ruling.

    The Federalist justices were installed with Koch money for the purpose of enabling Koch money. And they have handlers who dole out Koch money to keep them on board.

    Sen. Whitehouse gave quite a speech on this. At the end he was wondering how much of this friendly hospitality got written off as business expenses. Interesting question I hope someone pursues.

  37. Scott says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I think people genetically have tastebuds that react differently to different foods. As a kid, my basic rule was don’t eat anything green. OTOH, I liked beets, squash, any kind of root vegetable. I also liked liver and onions. Mom made occasionally beefsteak and kidney pie and oxtail soup. And as a solid Mid Westerner, mayonnaise (in the form of Miracle Whip) was a staple. Peanut butter and mayonnaise sandwiches favored.

    As an adult, my spice cabinet is full of formerly exotic spices and could eat Indian and South Asian food everyday.

  38. de stijl says:


    My mouth rebels against sour. Vinegar especially, white vinegar. My tongue cannot cope. It refuses. I do the suck a lemon face, I wince, I want to spit it out, it registers as sharply painful in my brain core. I’m pretty sure my sour taste buds are calibrated wrong. And ethnically I am Swedish, and Swedes traditionally pickle everything. I am a genetic anomaly.

    I can handle citrus with basically no problem, but white vinegar provokes a profound, unbidden rejection response. One time I spat out food at a fairly formal and polite party. Didn’t mean to – it just happened. I was so embarrased! It was an autonomic response.

  39. Mr. Prosser says:

    @Rick S: I also discovered, as I grew up, that my Mom was less than a mediocre cook. No spice or herb sense, just bland and slap dash preparation. Eating meals at friend’s homes was a revelation.

  40. de stijl says:


    Personally, I don’t get how a chicken thigh is greasier than any other part, but I get where you are coming from. Sometimes our brains just decide something is gross really without our conscious input. It just is.

    I’m that way with asparagus. If this were post-apocalyptic wasteland and I were near to starving and happened upon a field of grown asparagus I would walk on without a second thought. Yeah, I’m not eating that. I’d rather starve.

    Taste quirks are interesting.

  41. CSK says:


    Menendez has gotten away with this crap twice before, so he probably figures he has a license to steal.

  42. just nutha says:

    @MarkedMan: Wow! It’s almost as if societies that have policies that limit the degrees to which people are “citizens,” and thereby limit the rights they have are on to something. I dunno. Then again, I’ve always wondered if letting just any cracker vote wasn’t a questionable proposition.

  43. CSK says:

    @de stijl:

    I like asparagus AND chicken thighs, but I’m certainly not going to dump on anyone who doesn’t. As you say, tastes differ.

    I can’t eat Lima beans. I never could. They make me gag. And I find sugary ham repellent. I’m not crazy about Indian cuisine, though I love Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, and Vietnamese.

  44. Kylopod says:


    On a fundamental level the anti-trans bigots like Walsh are anti-woman.

    One clip I’ve seen from his “What is a Woman?” documentary says it all. He goes up to his wife, who’s in the kitchen chopping vegetables. He asks her the title question, and without missing a beat she says “adult human female.”

    The subtext of this scene is very telling. The wife is busy with her household wifely duties while Matt is out doing the work of supporting the family financially. And she’s the one to give that no-nonsense, woman’s-intuition response.

    It’s practically a case study in the reactionary right’s outlook. A great deal of the assault on LGBT rights comes down to a belief that gay and trans people upset the traditional gender roles that should be set in stone. I’ve heard that the TERF phenomenon is more common in Britain than the US, and even though I question whether those like Rowling (who has effusively praised Walsh) are truly liberal or feminist in any way at this point, in America these arguments are loaded with old-fashioned, Phyllis Schlaffly-tier antifeminism, where the conservatives are “protecting the women” in order to enable them to fulfill their true destinies as mothers and homemakers.

  45. Michael Reynolds says:

    When we were living in France my mother got a copy of Larousse Gastronomique. The LG is not one of those perky, reader-friendly cookbooks, it’s the Old Testament of cookbooks. The result was some horrifying food, including a savory gelatin mold involving cucumbers.

    I was required to eat everything on the plate because children were starving in India, which was my fault. This led to a multi-year war of attrition during which time I became very adept at sneaking food off my plate into a paper napkin and disappearing it. I voluntarily ate Campbell’s bean soup and grilled cheese and that was about it. Flash forward a couple decades and I’m a restaurant columnist expounding on sweetbreads and morels and Beluga.

    Flash forward another couple decades and my kid who would voluntarily eat only buttered pasta and Nutella – who I did not require to eat everything but goddamit try it, we’re in Italy FFS – now proses on about nigiri and oysters and caviar.

    My conclusion is that a foodie develops later than convenient for parents. Might as well just let ’em eat Nutella.

  46. de stijl says:


    I’m making a big batch of red curry with a pound and a half of chicken thighs later today. That’ll last me a week at least. Over rice or with naan, or both.

  47. Kathy says:

    @de stijl:

    I do see oven roasted turkey as overrated in the same way I spoke about steak. It’s nice, but honestly I like oven roasted chicken better.

    We get a turkey at work around Christmas (sometimes we get a big chunk of pork leg). I give it to my mom, who cooks it sometime between March and April (no particular reason). I often take leftovers to use in chilaquiles, enchiladas, or in a stew. This improves it a lot.

  48. CSK says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    Speaking of French food, one of the funnier disputes is the long-running one about what constitutes a true cassoulet. The disputants seem to get hysterical with rage.

  49. MarkedMan says:

    @CSK: Hah! When I saw it in The Atlantic this morning, I said to myself, “someone recommended that piece, I should read it.” I guess it was you!

  50. Scott says:

    @de stijl: That’s the way I would eat if I were by myself. But the wife likes variety. So we evolved to this compromise: On Saturday she makes up the menu for the week and buys the groceries for it. I cook. Usually about 4 different meals with a couple of leftovers.

  51. CSK says:


    I’ve sent it to a couple of friends. Glad you enjoyed it as much as they and I did. It’s a stark warning–as if we needed one–of what will happen if Trump is re-elected.

    The Oil and Gas Workers’ Association has endorsed Trump.

  52. just nutha says:

    @Kathy: I’ve eaten smoked turkey–an emulsified, sausage-like product on the order of bolognaise sausage (aka bologna or baloney)–and found it to make adequate lunchtime sandwiches. But it’s definitely not turkey in the conventional sense. I’ve also eaten smoked whole turkey–Swift makes such a product–but don’t recall it at all, either favorably or unfavorably.

    ETA: I’ve eaten smoked duck in Korea. It was delicious!

  53. de stijl says:


    I live alone. I eat odd stuff at odd times of the day. It is not at all uncommon for me to eat pork tacos with chips and salsa for breakfast and a waffle, bacon, and a sunny side up egg for dinner. Or at 3 AM. Whenever. My sleep schedule varies a lot.

    My mother was not a particularly good mom, so I learned to fend for myself at a really young age. She, often, couldn’t be bothered to cook a meal for me and bought ingredients and reckoned that if I was hungry enough I would figure it out on my own. I ate a lot of cereal and PB&Js. As I grew older my palate opened up. She inadvertently forced me into learning a very valuable life skill.

    When I was a kid, there was a grade in HS where you had to choose between Home Ec or Shop. Sophomore year, I think. I ultimately chose shop which was a mistake. I learned nothing remotely useful. Shoulda taken Home Ec instead – that would have been infinitely more useful. I could’ve hung out with girls.

    Please tell me they don’t make kids do that weird dichotomy choice anymore. I imagine not; the insurance liability alone would be astronomical.

  54. Michael Reynolds says:

    The ATACMS are on their way to Ukraine, and the M1s are on their way to the front. The ATACMS have up to 190 mile range which means Sevastopol and most of Crimea will be in reach.

    Late, but welcome nevertheless.

  55. de stijl says:


    Who cleans up?

  56. Kathy says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    The war should last at least until November 2024. That’s when Putin will learn who wins the US presidential election. If Benito wins, and is still alive, he’ll hold on til 2025 to get the US to pressure Ukraine to give up even more territory than Russia now holds, probably the whole Black Sea coast.

    If Biden wins, he won’t be able to do that. a lot then will depend on how well Ukraine does in taking back stolen lands.

    While I worry about Ukraine should Biden lose, I worry about the Baltics a lot more. Should El Cheeto win, it’s very likely he’ll want to pull out of NATO. I don’t see how the alliance withstands such a loss, epsecially with countries like Hungary and Turkey which seem far more sympathetic to Putin’s brand of authoritarian, Stalin-lite rule. Nothing would prevent Mad Vlad from gobbling the Baltic states then.

    Or from trying to. He might get a Ukraine-size surprise if he tries.

  57. Jay L Gischer says:

    @Michael Reynolds: But, but, but… I thought any attack on Crimea would result in a nuclear exchange. That’s what Elon Musk said the Russians told him, right?

    Does Musk object to getting played? I would think he does. I hope so.

  58. Scott says:

    @Michael Reynolds: The latest security assistance package includes AIM-9M missiles. Those go on F-16s for air to air combat.

    BTW. These are missiles that are in inventory and first delivered in 1983. Also adopted by many other countries/aircraft.

  59. Scott says:

    @de stijl: Weekdays. Mostly me. Wife works. I don’t. I’m the domestic god and all around trophy husband.

  60. DrDaveT says:


    Matt Walsh rails against universal voting rights: “It’s not fundamental to your human nature that you automatically are entitled to have a say over the political system in your country”

    I actually agree with him (and Churchill) on that. Democracy and universal suffrage is the correct choice for various contingent reasons, not an axiom or Categorical Imperative. It’s not a fundamental human right; it’s a smart governance decision.

  61. DrDaveT says:


    What fascinated me was when they were really little and for months they would only eat, say, chicken nuggets dipped in blue applesauce, and we would wait for sales and buy great quantities of the stuff and then one day out of the blue they would take a look at their plate and announce, “I don’t like this!” and boom, it was dead to them forever.

    Bread and Jam for Frances is a classic.

  62. DrDaveT says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    My conclusion is that a foodie develops later than convenient for parents.

    There’s a lot of variation there, too. My best man’s daughter grew up eating polenta and paté as baby food and was addicted to blue cheeses and adult olives* by the time she was 8.

    *Kalamata, oil cured, Castelvetrano, Picholine, …

  63. DrDaveT says:

    @just nutha:

    I’ve also eaten smoked whole turkey–Swift makes such a product–but don’t recall it at all, either favorably or unfavorably.

    My father used to smoke a dozen turkey breasts every fall, to give away as gifts to various friends who eagerly looked forward to them every year.

  64. steve says:

    “I’m making a big batch of red curry with a pound and a half of chicken thighs”

    I am doing a massaman curry with beef short ribs. Always wanted to try making my own massaman curry paste. I am making side by side batches with my own homemade and a store brand curry paste. So far it looks like the store brand might win. Oh well.


  65. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Scott: I love the smell of liver and onions. Never acquired the taste for it. My old man loved it, so it got served up more than a little. Many’s the time I made up for the lack of protein by eating extra salad (which I’ve always loved).

  66. CSK says:


    I asked for my own personal jar of olives for Christmas when I was nine. I get them. This last XMass, I received a jar of giant green olives stuffed with bleu cheese. Ecstasy.

  67. just nutha says:

    @de stijl: In the districts I substitute teach in, both industrial arts (all the various shop classes) and home ec (now called Home and Family Life) are in CTE–Career/Technical Education and are open to all comers of all genders (fixed, fluid, and transitional alike). The “cooking class” part has transitioned to culinary arts and is more restaurant industry oriented and the HFL part appears to be mostly childcare and daycare/ECE oriented.

    Sewing, as a skills set, is available at one middle school (0ut of 5 across 2 districts). And in the district with two high schools, only the school originally reserved for the “(paper) mill kids” has shop and home ec (type) classes. The other school has “building trades” classes and welding (but only half days for each). That school is also the only one remaining that has a general industrial arts intro class that virtually every student takes. Most kids in both districts have no required IA or HE classes to take in high school, but that was the case at my high school in Seattle 55 years ago, too. (We were too busy creating all the engineers Boeing was churning through and shop class was the place where “the dumb and lazy” kids were stored until time to go to Vietnam.)

  68. Kathy says:

    The Guardian reports the vast majority of NFTs are worthless.


    On kids and food, my parents had three terrible habits that should be outlawed.

    On not liking something, one was not allowed to try a few bites. No. trying meant eating a whole serving. And woe be unto the child who expressed disgust at having to choke down something they found disgusting.

    One also had to eat every last morsel on the plate, whether one was full or not. This caused a lot of problems. I think to this day I don’t feel full unless I eat past feeling full.

    Three, it was an affront to ask “what’s in it?” The reply was “try it!” Sure, when one has to eat a whole serving of who the hell knows what’s in it? No thanks. This was a really sore point when we tried Chinese food*, as it’s hard to tell sometimes what’s in it.

    Past that, my mom in particular believed no one had a valid reason for not liking any food. One time she said that, I asked her to eat a plate of raw onions, which she doesn’t like. She slapped me.

    *I got past that pretty much only when I found the take out menus, I must have been 10 or so, and discovered each dish listed all the main ingredients.

  69. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @CSK: The Oil and Gas Workers’ Association has endorsed Trump.

    That’s because climate change is fake.

    eta: I can’t help wondering if they are a front for oil and gas companies.

  70. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @DrDaveT: It’s not a fundamental human right; it’s a smart governance decision.

    Gonna have to disagree with you on this. Everybody should have a say in how they are governed. The fact that so many do not is a denial of that fundamental right.

  71. CSK says:


    According to the OGWA, “Trump has been the most pro-Oil and Gas Workers president ever.” The oil tycoons themselves would prefer someone other than Trump.

  72. MarkedMan says:


    So far it looks like the store brand might win

    40+ years ago a roommate taught me to make a killer pasta sauce. Took all day, ingredients costed a fair penny, and required two (or optionally three) types of cheese in the sauce itself. Delicious and wonderful but so much work. But the alternative was Hunt’s Spaghetti Sauce in a tin can. Ragu came out and I tried it, much better than the can, but no way. Prego was a bit better, but I still made a huge pot once a month or so because it was so worth it. But then the jarred sauce got a lot better. Heck, Newman’s own is cheap and does a perfectly fine job. Haven’t made that sauce in decades.

  73. Beth says:


    Hoocoodanode! indeed, lol.

    I hate all three of those habits and think they are abuse.

    One also had to eat every last morsel on the plate, whether one was full or not. This caused a lot of problems. I think to this day I don’t feel full unless I eat past feeling full.

    My SIL and her husband are big in this. I hate it. Her step-son goes along with it though cause he craves stability and order. She became a mom of a 8 year old overnight and the poor kind had a bit of a chaotic background with his bio-mom. The kid is great, but it makes me so sad that he has to deal with that.

  74. MarkedMan says:

    @Kathy: Is Mexican Chinese food like American Chinese food? I mean, is it “Chinese” in name only, or does it bear any resemblance to food that might actually be served in China?

  75. Mister Bluster says:

    @just class was the place where “the dumb and lazy” kids were stored until time to go to Vietnam.

    The Vietnam Conflict Extract Data File of the Defense Casualty Analysis System (DCAS) Extract Files contains records of 58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties of the Vietnam War.

    As far as I can tell this count does not include a friend of mine who was drafted out of high school. The war finally ended for him when he died a few years ago from what he believed to be the exposure to Agent Orange.

    Steve Blake

  76. DrDaveT says:


    Always wanted to try making my own massaman curry paste.

    My father, who grew up in a part of the Midwest where “spicy food” meant both salt and pepper, learned from friends in grad school to make an East African curry* from scratch. The curry paste alone had 14 different ingredients. It’s… daunting. I have the same problem with Indian and Thai curries, and find the commercial pastes to be perfectly satisfactory substitutes.

    *I’ve almost never seen this style in restaurants, but I adore it. It’s served as hot meat in sauce over hot steamed rice with a wide variety of diced refrigerator-cold fruits, nuts, and vegetables. Banana, mango, cashews or peanuts, tomato, bell pepper, green onion, apple, … oh, and chutney.

  77. Jen says:

    Ha. David Brooks really stepped in it yesterday. He xweeted (whatever) a picture of a burger and fries with the caption “This meal just cost me $78 at Newark Airport. This is why Americans think the economy is terrible.”

    The restaurant (probably not wanting to be ID’ed as a place w/$78 burgers) clapped back and pointed out that 80% of his bill was booze.

  78. Beth says:

    What’s on everyone’s friday night agendas? I’m dragging a friend out to a rave to see Basement Jaxx. This has been a great year for seeing acts I never thought I would. I get to see them twice. They were amazing at Movement in Detroit. If you have Apple Music I suggest checking that set out.

    The extra fun part of my night is that he’s already complaining about it starting “late” at 9pm. I was like, that’s not late, that’s early and you’re not dead yet. He kept complaining. I don’t get why so many otherwise healthy 40 year olds decide they’ve past some magic barrier and they are actually done with life.


    I am not a fan of American Chinese food. It’s so slimy and gross. So much of it is just devoid of flavor other than slime. It’s like if we’re stuck with Taco Bell and thinking that was “authentic”. I’m also getting a front row seat to that changing. My neigborhood has a large influx of wealthy (or becoming wealthy) Chinese immigrants. The White People chinese place still does a brisk business, but all the new places advertise regional cuisine over “Chinese”.

  79. Kathy says:


    Mexican Chinese food is Mexican food.

    She said deadpan.

    Seriously, at the turn of the XX century, many Chinese immigrants set up cheap restaurants that served quick Mexican food, like quesadillas, tacos, and the like. They also served coffee with milk. This is a mix of concentrated brewed coffee (it’s deep black, and flows a bit thick) and hot milk*.

    Things changed in time. You find a lot of Cantonese style food, which is mostly chopped everything in some kind of sauce, and fried rice mixed with vegetables on the side, and spring rolls and dumplings as starters. Eventually other types of regional Chinese cuisine began to crop up. The older Cantonese places began to copy some of their dishes.

    Last I heard Panda Express moved down here, too. I’ve never tried it.

    *It’s better than it sounds. In fact, it’s quite good. It’s served in a tall glass, and poured at the table. One can get what concentration of coffee vs milk one wants. The milk is poured from high up, so as to foam somewhat as it aerates the mix.

  80. CSK says:


    I wonder if he was still drunk when he TXweeted this.

  81. Kathy says:


    He xweeted (whatever)

    I think the correct term is Xitted.

  82. Mister Bluster says:

    @Beth:..friday night agendas

    I am going home tonight and since Summer will end with the Autumnal Equinox at 1:50am (CDT) tomorrow I will attempt to sleep until June 20 next year. The Summer Solstice.
    I have heard that Social Security will still be paid out even if the government shuts down so I don’t have to march on Washington to demand my benefits.

  83. DrDaveT says:


    Heck, Newman’s own is cheap and does a perfectly fine job.

    I saw a hilarious YouTube video that featured an Italian man (possibly from Naples) and his American wife tasting jarred grocery store pasta sauces, and comparing them against a couple of Italian brands. It was clear by the end that the reason he loathed Newman’s, and Rao’s, and every other decent US brand was that they had something in them besides tomato. His idea of the ideal pasta sauce was straight tomato paste.

    I’m guessing pineapple on a pizza would put him in the hospital…

  84. de stijl says:


    A lot of times store-bought is is better than I can make, way less of a hassle, more economical, and a huge time saver.

    I’ve out-sourced so many things I could potentially do on my own. Pasta sauce, salsa, baked goods. The cost / benefit ratio isn’t worth it to me. All my baked goods and pastries come the bakery down the street about a 6 minute walk away. I’m a rank amateur and they are pros. Their product is way better than I could do. That is an easy decision.

    My curry recipe isn’t a recipe, it’s a vague outline. I eyeball everything. Curry paste and powder. Grated ginger, about a dozen various spices and herbs, tomatoes. Sometimes pineapple. Sometimes peanut butter.

    I could grow veggies and herbs. I choose not to. I did an interior windowsill herb experiment one year. That was a bust.

    If it’s a hassle and a pain in the butt, then don’t do it, is my take. If you enjoy it and find the process fun and fulfilling, then do it.

    Marginal utility and enjoyment.

  85. Kathy says:


    I’m not sure I’d call it abuse. I do know my siblings took very different tacks with their children. It was not pleasant to eat with my parents, I know that.

    As to Friday plans, I expect to spend too long a time in traffic, watch the latest Lower Decks, have dinner, then collapse.

  86. CSK says:


    Pineapple on a pizza would put me in the hospital. That’s one really disgusting custom we imported from the U.K.

  87. gVOR10 says:


    I actually agree with him (and Churchill) on that. Democracy and universal suffrage is the correct choice for various contingent reasons, not an axiom or Categorical Imperative. It’s not a fundamental human right; it’s a smart governance decision.

    I upvoted that because I think “Natural Rights” is a silly concept. It’s like believing that Section 3 of the 14th Amendment is self executing.

    Rights are privileges we have agreed to grant each other.

  88. Michael Reynolds says:

    The only disgusting custom from the UK? Are you forgetting Benny Hill?

  89. CSK says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    Not at all. I don’t think I said that pineapple pizza was the only disgusting import.

  90. JohnSF says:

    @Michael Reynolds:
    My books of prophecy:
    – Larousse Gastronomique
    – Escoffier The Complete Guide to the Art of Modern Cookery
    – Elizabeth David’s French Provincial Cooking
    – Delia Smith (various)
    I was (un?)fortunate enough to get introduced to good food and wine at an impressionable age.
    Lacking the finances required to dine at Michelin starred restaurants on a regular basis, I have had to develop an ability to cook. And to use the money saved to purchase decent, if not extravagant wines.
    It keeps me amused, at any rate.

    BTW, ever come across a Californian wine called “Hands of Time”? If so, is it worth the money?
    I ask because the local wine dealer has some in.
    It’s not ultra big bucks, but then I’m a poor and parsimonious sod. 🙂

  91. Kathy says:


    I’m used to having pineapple mixed wit entrees. Not many, but enough. Tacos al pastor are sliced pork served in a tortilla with cilantro, onions, and pineapple. The various sweet and sour meats in Chinese restaurants come with pineapple, carrots, and cucumbers*. So having it on pizza along with ham, cheese, and tomato sauce isn’t a leap at all.

    Calling it Hawaiian pizza might be.

    *They’re seeded and sliced, but with the skin still on. However they get cooked, they’re soft as browned onions, and go well with the sweet and sour sauce. What’s odd is they’re neither particularly sweet, like carrots and pineapple, nor sour.

  92. JohnSF says:


    “Pineapple on a pizza … imported from the U.K.”

    No sir, indeed not sir!
    We deny all responsibility for such outrages!
    Surely it is termed Hawaiian for a reason?
    My seconds await your indulgence, sir. Flintlocks, or rapiers?

    Perhaps, once, when rather off my face, I did indulge in such depravity, and even said, in my intoxicated state: “Yum!”
    But I plead beer in mitigation!

  93. CSK says:


    John, they were serving pineapple pizza in Scotland in the 1970s. I know. I saw it.

  94. JohnSF says:

    Just another example of CIA subversion of Scottish cuisine!
    Would the nation that invented deep-fried battered Mars bars ever contemplate such a thing?
    Sneaky US agents spreading out from Holy Loch, without a doubt.

  95. CSK says:


    Chinese sweet and sour is considerably different. For one thing, the pineapple isn’t combined with tomato sauce and cheese.

  96. CSK says:


    And who takes the blame for haggis?

  97. just nutha says:

    @steve: Are you including the ground peanuts in your spice mix? (The fact that I can’t predict when peanuts will show up to trigger my worst food allergy is why I don’t do Thai food. ☹️)

  98. CSK says:


    Deep-fried Mars Bars is yet another culinary abomination.

  99. JohnSF says:

    Last man standing. 🙂
    But if you think haggis is objectionable (being as its not that different from Midlands faggots, which I know and love) just try French andouillettes.
    Perhaps Michael Reynolds can relate an experience with same?
    (NB: they are not the same as Cajun andouille. Trust me on this. LOL.)

  100. just nutha says:

    @Mister Bluster: My condolences.

  101. Kathy says:


    Did you know those things aren’t even made on Mars?

    Back to pineapple, there’s a version of pastor made with cheese and wrapped in a flour tortilla. It does come with pineapple. The salsa has tomato in it, though I wouldn’t call it tomato sauce.

    So there 😉

  102. JohnSF says:

    On that I can heartily agree.
    As can most of the British Isles.
    Pretty universal reaction in England, Wales, Ireland, and indeed, tbf, much of Scotland:
    “Deep-fried f’ckin’ Mars Bars? WTF? WTFF?”

  103. just nutha says:

    @Kathy: You can buy a liquid coffee concentrate in British goods stores where I’ve lived, too. Most common brand is Camp.

  104. Michael Reynolds says:

    If my daughter had developed her palette earlier, I’d still have my hair.

  105. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    Thanks everyone for the kind thoughts. After 6 hours in the er, they gave him a shot and sent him home and said to make an appointment with his cardiologist asap. I would note that he’s 45, has an artificial heart valve for 25 years, a rebuilt aortic arch, and is on permanent blood thinners. The fact that he’s nearly 25 years younger than I am and in way worth worse health cardio-wise is an eye opener.

    On the other hand, the 2 hour dental appointment this morning was an unpleasantness. Out of 32 teeth, eight are missing, and 14 are cracked either down to or past the gum line. This is going to be expensive and painful is the best I can say about it. Happy Friday indeedy do.

  106. de stijl says:


    Oh, man Basement Jaxx! I don’t know their oeuvre, their back catalog, but Red Alert and Where’s Your Head At? freaking rock. I’m slightly jealous. Have a great, epic night! Do something slightly stupid.

  107. Michael Reynolds says:

    I can cook, as in I am able to execute a recipe faithfully and usually get decent results. My wife can make coffee. But I cannot create, which frustrates me and limits my commitment.

    I spent about a decade in sheer restaurant indulgence. Trotter, Achatz, Ducasse, Senderens, Rostang, Mina, Savoy, Tramonto, Bayliss, Ramsay, Gagnaire, Arun, Robuchon etc… Went through the whole tasting menu phase and some of it was life-altering. But after way too much money and way, way too much time, I have not yet had a better meal than a soft-shell crab sandwich on the Ocean City boardwalk, or a couple pintxos and cold beer in San Sebastian. Though I do love caviar.

    I used to know about wine, I had a decent palette, but that’s mostly past tense as I glide into my single malts from the islands, and small batch bourbons, phase. My nightcap is often a snifter of Four Roses single barrel and half a Cadbury bar. You people ruined me for American chocolate.

  108. de stijl says:


    I use fruit based sauces on meat all the time. It used to be bog-standard normal in European cooking and still is in South Asian and South East Asian dishes, but has fallen out of favor in standard Western day to day cooking. That’s a shame – the contrast works really well.

    I really like the sweet + savory thing.

    I find blueberries especially useful in almost all sauces. Tart and sweet. Pineapple, cranberries. Raisins add a bit of umami.

  109. DrDaveT says:


    What’s on everyone’s friday night agendas?

    Relaxing Like Old People at the end of a crazy week.

    I made pulled pork soft tacos for dinner — pork simmered in salsa verde, corn tortillas for me and flour for the wife. Simple, but hit the spot. Now it’s time to enjoy a lovely glass of rye with 43 and amaro.

  110. DrDaveT says:


    BTW, ever come across a Californian wine called “Hands of Time”?

    Hands of Time is a blend of cabernet sauvignon and merlot. It is a less-ageworthy red produced by Stag’s Leap Cellars, which was one of the handful of wineries that put American wines on the map back in the 70s by winning blind tastings in France against real Bordeaux. Stag’s Leap makes excellent wines, but (1) they are a bit overpriced in general due to the cachet of the name, and (2) I have not had that particular wine.

    My semi-informed guess: If it’s 25 pounds or less, it might be a good deal. If it’s more than that, you can probably find a Jumilla from Spain or a southern Italian red to scratch the same itch. Michael might know more.

  111. JohnSF says:

    @Michael Reynolds:
    Amongst my best meals ever: fresh caught crab sandwich (the crab not the sandwich, LOL) and a pint of draught Bass in a pub in south Devon.
    Up there with bistecca fiorentina in a restaurant outside Florence, and some restaurants in Bruges.
    Four Roses? Hmm. Interesting.
    Currently occasionally using Sazerac to make Manhattans, on the basis that it’s autumn and something warming is required. 🙂

  112. DrDaveT says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    You people ruined me for American chocolate.

    Did you ever have the original version of Scharffenberger? I had the pleasure of attending a tasting hosted by John Scharffenberger at the Smithsonian, maybe 20 years ago. He explained in detail exactly why Hersheys, Cadbury, Lindt, and his own brand taste the way they do. It’s all in the treatment of the milk — deliberately soured for Hersheys, caramelized for Cadbury, minimal manipulation for Lindt, secret sauce for Scharffenberger. The differences in milk overwhelm the differences in sourcing and treatment of the actual cacao.

    I would rather have Ghirardelli than Cadbury — I hate that caramel undertone — but I’d rather have Lindt than either.

  113. Gustopher says:


    Surely it is termed Hawaiian for a reason?

    Because it is Canadian!

  114. Michael Reynolds says:

    I still have a fondness for the chocolate of every American airport, See’s, but that’s apples to oranges, See’s is all about the variety, less about chocolate qua chocolate.

    And I have a tendre for peanut M&Ms. When I’d tour the UK (book tour, not fun time tour) I joked on some radio show that I was on the minibar diet: Scotch and peanut M&M’s, the two things in every minibar on earth, and my lovely fans would be at the next bookstore (not school) with a pint and a big yellow bag.

    ETA: I’m really not suited to be a kid’s book author.
    ETA 2: Scharffenberger, eh? Now I must have some.

  115. JohnSF says:

    Thanks. Its at £20, so maybe worth a try (when my monthly salary relives my current indigency, LOL)
    I suspect that better Riojas or left-bank Bordeaux might beat it in vfm, but the Atlantic Alliance and all that. 😉
    Lately I developing the opinion that some of the worlds best quality/price ratio wines are from South Africa. If you ever get the chance to try something from Rustenberg’s , or Journey’s End Vineyards, give it a go.
    Mind you, I’ve no idea what the pricing might be in the US.

  116. Mister Bluster says:

    @just nutha:..condolences.

    Thank you.
    Not long after I moved to Carbondale in 1968 to finish college I met a guy at one of the swill holes that I frequented. He was on the GI Bill as he had returned from Vietnam after both his legs were blown off in combat. He would talk about the war some. All I could do was listen.
    After awhile he got into heroin. When I went over to his place he was gone. No one knew where he was. I never saw or heard of him again. He’s another guy that I think of whenever that war is mentioned.

  117. JohnSF says:

    Belgium. Trust me on this.

  118. steve says:

    just nutha- No ground peanuts in the paste but I do throw some peanuts in while finishing the curry.
    None of my curry recipes call for ground peanuts. Pretty much limit them to sauces and some marinades and desserts. None of our close friends or family have peanut allergies thankfully.


  119. DrDaveT says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    Scharffenberger, eh? Now I must have some.

    Beware. There is a chocolate producer of that name today, but it is not the same product — I believe JS sold the name when he switched to making sparkling wines. I have no idea what the current Scharffen Berger tastes like, but I am not encouraged by the fact that it’s vegan.

  120. DrDaveT says:


    Lately I developing the opinion that some of the worlds best quality/price ratio wines are from South Africa.

    I tasted a lot of pinotage a while back, and some of them were excellent, but too many of them have an odd chemical solvent undertaste that I don’t care for. South African chenin blanc, on the other hand, is one of the white wine world’s best kept secrets — great QPR.

    I would expect that in Britain at the moment the best red wine deals would be Portuguese and Spanish wines. Monastrell, which is what the Spaniards call Mourvedre/Mataro, makes some scrumptious and affordable wines in Jumilla and Yecla. Portuguese grapes are much more confused, and it’s harder to guess at the quality from looking at the label, but there are some great bargains to be had. (And for white wine, albarino/alvarinho is another great qpr option.)

  121. de stijl says:


    Wheat flour tortillas are way better at the cohesion, not randomly ripping and falling apart thing, but are the most bland of the options. Acceptable.

    Yellow corn tortillas are the tastiest, but are most prone to disintegrating like prison grade toilet paper under the most minimal amount of stress. You look at a yellow corn tortilla and it splits and falls apart. After the first bite it’s basically knife and spoon. Yummiest.

    White corn tortillas are my taco delivery system of choice. The best of both worlds. Relative structural integrity and taste. Optimal.

  122. JohnSF says:

    Pinotage is umm, divisive. LOL
    Def. agree on the good SA chenin; a varietal I developed a taste for on holidays in the Loire region of France.
    SA Bordeaux cabernet/merlot/cot blends can be very good, IMO.
    Portuguese: yes, some excellent stuff if the buyer picks a good ‘un.
    Like a lot of European appellations, the grape varieties aren’t often specified. As long as they are within the local definition rules, it’s not considered necessary to be specific.
    Which often works fine.
    Dao, Douro reserva.

  123. de stijl says:

    @de stijl:

    When I said “Western” earlier that was entirely too broad. I basically meant Anglo American. Swedish cuisine fairly routinely uses berries in savory dishes, for example.

    In the US I can think of two dishes that pair fruit and meat: pork chops and apples. For Freya’s sake do not buy applesauce in a jar. Buy a freaking apple, split it, core it, slice it, leave the skin on, throw it in a low medium hot pan with a bit of butter, the key is a smidgen of salt. Cinnamon and cumin if you’re feeling frisky. Maybe rosemary. Takes 8 minutes tops and is easy peasy and a million times better than applesauce out of a jar. Any idiot could do it.

    The other is cranberry sauce on Thanksgiving turkey. Do not buy the crap in the can. Just buy some actual cranberries and do a super simple reduction.

    The third other other is tacos al pastor. Pork and pineapple perfection. Not “American”, but has found a welcoming second home. Certainly North American.

    Sweet + savory rocks. Berries and meat go together better than peas and carrots.

  124. Pete S says:

    For sure, Lindt is my favourite of the mass market chocolate. Kind of wish the closest store was more than 10 minutes from my house so it would be a little harder to acquire.

    Do you mean the “Canadian bacon” that is sold in the States? Tried it once and was not impressed. The real local bacon we call peameal is actually more like ham coated in cornmeal. Sliced thick and grilled it is amazing.