Friday’s Forum
Steven L. Taylor
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Friday, February 16, 2024
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86 comments
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor of Political Science and a College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored
A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog).
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Greece becomes first Orthodox Christian country to legalise same-sex marriage
Good.
I had in fact read of Beyonce’s latest release (still haven’t heard it), but as one who is often way behind the curve on “the latest greatest,” I can buy that. It’s happened to me so many times I no longer get embarrassed when somebody looks at me with incredulous eyes and says, “Say WHAT??? You don’t know about….?”
Not that the country music scene isn’t still racist as all F.
The headline of the day- Deputy scared by an acorn hitting his cruiser opens fire in street
@OzarkHillbilly: So when will we see My Big Fat Gay Greek Wedding?
@Kylopod: HA! I love that movie. Makes me laugh every time.
Russian opposition leader Alexey Navalny has died in prison.
From The Guardian:
SF writer John Scalzi responds to the news.
@Mikey: Dead of natural causes, causes that are natural to incarceration in a Russian gulag.
Democracy takes a hit:
I can’t blame him, he wants to live. What is more he wants his family to live.
Did not have this on my 2024 Headline Bingo card: Man who mixed own sperm with dad’s will not have to take paternity test
Taylor Swift donates $100,000 to family of Kansas City Chiefs parade shooting victim
Sooo woke! Just disgusting.
From Navalny’s 2022 WaPo editorial about Putin’s invasion of Russia:
@Kingdaddy: I think you misspelled Ukraine in your header. 😉
@OzarkHillbilly:
On the other hand, Russia is the one country Mad Vlad has managed to conquer.
@OzarkHillbilly: Doh! Sorry about that.
@Kingdaddy: Well, in a way Putin did conquer Russia…
@Kingdaddy: Just poking a little fun at you. I do that sort of thing so often, it’s kinda nice to see I am not alone in that.
Question:
If you read a science fiction novel that does massive world building, but has a rather weak story, and a deus ex machina resolution that wasn’t even hinted at, do you feel it was worth reading?
@OzarkHillbilly: I definitely took it in that kind spirit.
Meanwhile, in the UK.
Conservatives lose two seats in by-elections.
Wellingborough, swing of 28.5 points.
Kingswood 16.4 points.
Bothe were fairly safe Tory seats, with Con vote shares of around 50 to 60 percent in recent elections.
Conservative held Wellingborogh since 201, and for most elections since 1968.
Kingswood a bit more prone to shifts, but held since 2005.
The Conservatives are trussed up and ready for roasting.
@Kathy:
You mean like 95% of the most beloved sci-fi that exists?
@JohnSF: “The Conservatives are trussed up and ready for roasting.”
And yet in the run-up, the NY Times was hyperventilating over how huge splits among Labor voters over Gaza might allow the Tories to squeak through.
I think that’s about as likely here as it was there.
Joe Manchin announces he will not run for president
I am also announcing that I will not run for President.
@Scott:
Yeah, me neither.
Isn’t Judge Engoron going to hand down his verdict today in Trump’s civil fraud trial?
I think that anyone who wishes to read this should be able to do so:
http://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/us/politics/trump-republican-party-establishment.html
@Kylopod:
More like 85%.
But specifically I mean “A Deepness in the Sky” by Vernor Vinge.
@Kathy:
Back when I played role-playing games, there were a lot of RPGs with very deep world-building. The publishers would pump out book after book of background. A lot of the ideas were really interesting (personal favorite was Runequest, a very nonconformist fantasy setting), but the books were not, by themselves, interesting reads. They existed to serve the plot — not the one that a single author created, but the one that multiple authors around the table collaboratively generated. Some people ate up these setting books, on their own. Not so much me.
I hope that’s a useful analog to what you’re asking. I feel the same way about science fiction and fantasy. World-building by itself is not a good justification to write or read a book. Exposition dumps, whether in a book or a game, are just boring.
@JohnSF:
I see what you did there.
@Kingdaddy: Orson Scott Card created a system for categorizing all stories (not just speculative fiction), called the MICE quotient: Milieu, Idea, Character, and Event. For example, classic murder mysteries are Idea stories, meaning they focus on finding the answer to a question or solution to a problem, and criticizing those stories for having paper-thin characterization is missing the point. That’s not what they’re about.
Similarly, fantasy stories (particularly High Fantasy) are typically Milieu stories, where the focus is on the created world of the story, and these types of stories often lack not only strong characterization, but tightly constructed plots. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, as it’s not what the readers who come back to these stories are looking for–which is really all that matters, right?
While I’m usually skeptical of inventing classification systems like this, I must say I’ve always liked the idea implicit in this one that we shouldn’t judge all stories according to the same measuring stick.
@Kathy: Poor story with a rushed ending out of nowhere seems like a lot to overcome, but I would ask whether it changed you, or whether it was merely clever?
One of the greatest powers that science fiction has is the ability to change the fundamental assumptions of the world we live in, and get us to look at things “fresh” in a way that slips past our preconceived notions.
If it can do that (not just try to do that, but succeed), despite the plot and resolution, then it’s a really good book.
(Fantasy can, in theory, do the same thing, but it’s usually just wildly inaccurate Middle Ages with dragons and magic and maybe dwarves or something)
Professor Steven Taylor et al.
What book should I read to learn about Political Science?
Foundations of Political Science by Rodgir Cohen
Introduction to Political Science
Whataboutism
A racist, a rapist and a thief walk into a fancy restaurant.
Maître d’ says, “Party of one, Mr. Trump?”
@Gustopher:
If that’s a joke of your own devising, I take off my hat to you.
Navalny was in good shape yesterday, there’s video of him joking and smiling. He didn’t die of starvation or an illness, he was murdered. Why yesterday? My distrust of Putin runs deep, and I’m wondering why he felt this was necessary NOW. We have the issue in the US Congress–that weird “Russia is doing something” flap. We have the use of a missile in Ukraine. Russia just put Estonia’s PM on a wanted list a few days ago, and tensions have been rising between Russia and Baltic leadership. Anything else? Has Putin been seen publicly today?
Just to watch the flip flop, John Norman’s Gor books should be nominated for a Hugo award and put in school libraries.
Treasure of Gor (Gorean Saga) to be released on March 26, 2024.
@Paul L.:
By that standard, the Gor movie should win Best Picture. In other words, let’s not do these things.
@Kathy:
It depends on how weak, and how massive. I thought Clement’s Iceworld was worth reading, and will probably read it again. I thought Hardy’s Master of the Five Magics (fantasy, not science fiction) was worth reading for the cool concept and premise, but not worth re-reading. I would probably put Vinge’s A Fire Upon the Deep in the “relatively weak story and ending, awesomely cool world-building” category, and it’s a classic.
@Kathy:
LOL, I had not yet seen that when I replied above.
I actually thought the plot and ending were stronger in ADitS than in AFutD. Your mileage may vary. (And hexapodia is the key insight.)
@Kingdaddy:
I’ve never played an RPG. But I’ve seen The Big Bang Theory, and read Dream Park, I gather the plot is determined by the person running the game.
@Gustopher:
I sometimes think some writers get carried away with world building, or with characters, and realize they’ve got a very long book, so they should end it now.
@Kylopod:
Asimov’s Robot novels are mysteries. The protagonist in the first three is a police detective, and all stories involve solving an impossible murder (ie, a murder that no one ought to have been able to commit). They also involve a fair bit of mostly sociological world building, and decent characterization.
And this is what makes categorization difficult. The square pegs keep finding ways to fit the round holes.
Today’s Good News
@Kylopod:
I wouldn’t go that far. I would say that a story can have value without being strong in all dimensions. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t better to be strong in all dimensions. Gaudy Night is a classic in part because it’s a fine mystery and a fine romance and an excellent exploration of feminist themes and modernization.
The Nero Wolfe taxonomy was:
That’s a pretty good set of criteria, any one of which is sufficient to make a book worthwhile.
Eric Walker’s version is (was?):
@Kathy:
Not if they’re good at it. In the best RPG experiences, the setting and rules of the road are established by the GM, but the plot is a collaborative effort of the players, the GM, and the dice. When the GM drives the plot, there’s no point in playing.
I had a friend who was a professional RPG designer. He and I had some long talks about the mechanism of collaborative storytelling, and what kinds of rules best allow creativity to flourish.
@Kathy:
I wonder how long he can drag out the appeal, which is probably being filed as we speak.
New York judge orders Donald Trump to pay $354 million in real estate fraud lawsuit.
Do they take post-dated, third party checks?
@DrDaveT:
I’ll take your word for it.
Come to think of it, spoiler alert, at the end of Dream Park, one player complains how hard the last level was. The guy running the game tells them they were supposed to use a tool or potion found earlier in the game to pass it, not fight a horde of zombies.
@CSK:
I vaguely recall reading Lardass has to deposit or pay a bond while the appeal takes place or something.
Either way, the joy I feel now cannot be defeated by anything short of a personal tragedy, or some insane Hell Week project.
Oh, wait.
@Gustopher:
You win the internet today.
@CSK: Apparently, the NYT disagrees with you. Not to worry though, I got enough from the headline and subhead to get the point.
@Scott: What the hell, I’m also announcing that you and Joe Manchin will not run for President!
@Kathy:
I think it’s five million, though I could be wrong.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
Sorry about that.
@Paul L.: “Just to watch the flip flop, John Norman’s Gor books should be nominated for a Hugo award and put in school libraries.”
I suppose that I shouldn’t be giving you troll lessons, but honestly, if you begin a troll with “I’m saying something deliberately outrageous so you’ll get mad,” it’s rare you’ll get any kind of response at all.
@DrDaveT:
I was presenting Card’s taxonomy quickly, so I definitely oversimplified; his essay is more nuanced. He acknowledges that a story of one type can be strong in terms of those other elements. He argues, however, that it doesn’t have to be in order to have value, and that in some cases can even be a hindrance.
@Kingdaddy:
Scalzi:
This is the biggest reason we have refused multiple invitations to participate in UAE (and IIRC the wife had an invite to the PRC) literary events is precisely this. We don’t want to feel obligated, or encourage others to see the Emiratis, or any other oppressive regime, as more advanced than they are. Don’t make nice with thugs, not even when they offer first class on Emirates Air.
@gVOR10:
LOL.
In all honesty, it was unintentional, though accurate
Only realised the horrid pun after posting.
@Kylopod:
He would.
Lots of authors have no problem squaring that circle. China Mieville and Daniel Kraus come to mind.
@CSK:
I wonder how Eric is going to come up with that much.
I suppose he could ask his wife.
@Kathy:
@CSK:
Via the NYT:
And, the best part:
LOL. They cannot stand her:
@CSK: No problemo. I was reading something this past week on the same theme. The thought isn’t new to me.
Asking for a friend who has an annual investment portfolio strategy meeting with her advisor about tolerance of risk over the next year.
Any suggestions within the context of political turmoil over the next few years? For example, stay the course (balanced between stocks & bonds, shoot for the moon in terms of returns, or put her money under the mattress?
@Jen:
Does this work like a bail bond? That is, if they skedaddle, does that leave the bond issuer with a $350+ million debt to NY?
As to the monitor, I’m confident Judge Engoron would consider appointing someone else. For instance, I hear Hillary Clinton is available.
@Kingdaddy:
No Hercules, Star Wars or Star Trek movie ever won Best Picture and they had a larger budget.
@wr:
I want see those here protesting “Book Ban” scream how damn you compare Gor to Books like Gender Queer and All Boys Aren’t Blue.
@Kathy: If the idea of playing a story telling game with other people isn’t your fancy, there are solo “RPGs” as well. Just think of them as creative writing tools. Here’s a review of them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COJcWFf0H3U&t=448s
I haven’t played it, but I hear good things.
@DrDaveT:
Spoiler alert.
I found most of the Spider plot interesting. The rest, Pham keeps plotting without letting us, or Ezr, in on his plans, Nau plots and plans and grows more disgusting in every page. The one really intriguing character was Anne, and we got only a little from her when she confronts Pham in the attic.
BTW, I just read it, so it’s all still fresh. I think if I read the above paragraph a year from now, I’d have little idea what it meant.
@Paul L.: I don’t think that any Hercules movie deserves the Oscar…But I think the MST3K episode with “Hercules Against the Moon Men” does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSPAHuvnuwA
Regarding the death of Navalny, that’s the exact thing tfg argued in court that he could legally do as president. Funny that. Coincidence? I bet he says nothing about it.
@Paul L.: “I want see those here protesting “Book Ban” scream how damn you compare Gor to Books like Gender Queer and All Boys Aren’t Blue.”
Why? Would that make you happy somehow?
Is that really all you’ve got in your life?
@OzarkHillbilly:
I don’t generally watch the Grammys, but we were at my mother-in-law’s that night, and she wanted to watch them. So, I caught Jay Z’s comments, which more or less stated that Beyonce – the top Grammy winner of all time – has not won enough Grammys.
Between them, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Elton John, The Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, The Doors, The Who and The Grateful Dead have won 26 Grammys.
You can make a very, very strong argument that The Beatles’ recorded body of work is both the best and most consequential in the history of recorded music. Their cultural impact is absolutely unmatched. And they won only 7 Grammys.
Beyonce has won 32 Grammys. I have trouble with the concept that she has somehow not received the recognition she is due.
That being said, I can’t see any good reason for a country station to refuse to take a request for a country song by Beyonce. I can’t name a single song she has done, but she has a solid reputation for being able to work successfully across different genres.
The Guardian has some info on what financial travails await Lardass A. Drumpf.
This link is provided for sheer enjoyment.
@Skookum: In my seventies. My primary goal is asset preservation but I’m also looking for moderate growth. I’m mostly in bonds, bond funds, and have some mutual funds with modest equity components. My adviser is optimistic that bonds will start to be better income producing investments now that interest rates are creeping up.
Ultimately, your friend’s decisions depend on degree to which he or she is risk accepting or risk averse and when and what the money is needed for. Being candid with the advisor will help in coming to the best decision. Hope this helped.
@Paul L.: I’m wondering who here has been advocating banning Gor books. Don’t recall it coming up, and most of us seem to oppose banning books. Perhaps you should be asking this question to the people the Wikipedia article I read claimed were advocating restricting access to these books.
@wr: Your answer is probably better than mine on many levels.
Question and a rosy scenario:
During the trial, either Lardass or his lawyers made a point that the banks and insurers they defrauded had no complaints. Now, I assume banks and insurers are supposed to perform due diligence, but one thing I’ve learned lately is how eagerly institutions like these will throw money around without much thought or scrutiny.
So, can a bank or insurer claim they just realized how badly the Drumpfs screwed them, and then file suit for damages?
I suppose a bank can’t legally complain if their loans were repaid.
But lately lawsuits against Lardass A. Drumpf are paying off big time.
BTW, regardless of what campaign finance laws and state laws say, I think Lardass should spend all the campaign money and superpac money he wants on legal matters. he should even take campaign money to pay off the judgments arising from lawsuits.
Why? Well, that’s the more less money he’ll have available to actually campaign. And if he breaks dozens of laws in the process, he’ll have more chances to go to prison. Win-win.
@CSK: It’s being drawn up but it won’t be filed until the last possible minute,
@Paul L.: Gor who?
@wr:
I think @Paul L should write up a treatment. You know people, I know people, Eddie knows people, I think if Paul wrote up, say, a brief 40 page treatment, and of course agreed to any necessary revisions, we could reach out to our respective agents.
No, never mind, I shouldn’t even joke about it. He’d write 40 pages of gibberish, as a goof we’d circulate it and the fucking thing would be picked up and become career-defining. All that would be left then is whiskey.
@OzarkHillbilly:
That’s what I was wondering.
That is not what he was complaining about. He was very specific about the fact that she had never won “Album of the Year” which, as you yourself noted, she is “the top Grammy winner of all time.” Seems to me a rather egregious oversight, and I am a person who really doesn’t pay much attention to new music one way or the other.
Still, it does seem rather negligent on their part to me and I certainly can’t blame the man for pointing out the obvious slight to his wife.
FTR, I come at this issue as a person who may very well have never heard a Beyonce song and has no knowledge of the level of her talent outside of the accolades the music industry has laid at her feet in grateful appreciation of the billions she has made them.
All that being said, country music appreciator that I am, I think I’ll go listen to “Texas Hold ‘Em”, just for the hell of it.
@OzarkHillbilly:
Yeah, I got that; I’m being a bit tongue-in-cheek. The fact that she has a truckload of other Grammys does not necessarily mean she deserves one for Album of the Year. The knock on her albums is that they have 2/3 outstanding singles, but are not strong end to end. That was very common before the rise of AOR, but since then quite a few artists have made albums where every track is a winner.
I’m not seeing the slight. What’s Going On, arguably the greatest album of all time did not even get nominated for AOY, much less win. Abbey Road, another strong GOAT candidate, did not win. Neither did Crosby, Stills & Nash, another, no doubt about it all-time classic in the same year. The Rolling Stones had an insanely great run from Beggars Banquet to Exile on Main St. Not an AOR to show for it. Or even a nomination.
The staff at the record store I frequent are all 20-30 year olds, and much more plugged into what is happening today than I am. The consensus among them seems to be that Beyonce, Taylor Swift, Adele, Harry Styles, et al are badly overrated, and that the best music is being made by people most of us will never hear of.
Until You Come Back to Me (That’s What I’m Gonna Do
If we are going to talk about real greatness…
This is rich. Air Canada claims the chatbot on its website is “a “separate legal entity” and thus was responsible for its actions.”
Given we often hear that developers of AI “deep learning” software don’t know how their own creations actually accomplish their tasks, I can see this defense, such as it is, may be brought up a great deal in the near future.
I can also envision some judge or jury agreeing with it. Or some legislature passing a law declaring AI to be “separate legal entities.”
Wonder what happens then?
@Beth: Wikipedia knows stuff, even if the stuff is unimportant. I’d never heard of Gor either until I looked it up today. Apparently, it’s a series of SF/Fantasy books written by a pronouncedly misogynistic philosophy professor (???–can’t remember whether it’s professor or just philosophy degree holder).
@anjin-san: And unless Wikipedia is wrong (which is certainly possible), she’s never won AOR either.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
AOR? My AOR reference is to “album oriented rock”.
Vanity Affair reporter given huge access to folks in the nuclear deterrence world. Real decent article as one who used to work in the field. But the question is, who is the intended audience? There is a message being sent. Twenty minute read. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/life-aboard-a-nuclear-submarine
@Kathy
There are some folks that are just good writers. Twenty years ago my daily newspaper had one such covering the local art world. I would read her articles on stuff I normally would not care about. Ditto with Sci-Fi writers. Of late the field has turned into making points about today rather than being somewhat independent of the current world, or at least that was what is being promoted – the year 2500AD is all about Trump – or escaping Global Warming. Tedious, and not going to last in the long term. As for Vernor Vinge, his Rainbow’s End is prescient. I like CJ Cherryh but her Cyteen books have you cheering for the enslavers (= great writing). Huge world building, but by the 15th “-er” (Destroy-er) book the stories are lagging. Meanwhile there is the SCI-FI Hugo scandal, can’t offend the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) mentioned above Scalzi (self-censoring, for fear of something).
@anjin-san: ” and that the best music is being made by people most of us will never hear of.”
That is the consensus of every music store employee in the history of recorded music.