Sunday’s Forum

James Joyner
About James Joyner
James Joyner is Professor and Department Head of Security Studies at Marine Corps University's Command and Staff College. He's a former Army officer and Desert Storm veteran. Views expressed here are his own. Follow James on Twitter @DrJJoyner.


  1. Teve says:

    Sunday, November 22, 2020 at 04:13
    Alice Wu:

    A note from abroad: Realizing now that I’ve been 5 days out of US that many folks back home don’t realize how other countries might be living with the ‘Rona. Here is what it was like to come to Taiwan. I think we could maybe learn a coupla things… /1 #COVID
    Upon our plane touching down in TPE, we were immediately placed in two lines: one for folks with a working intl cell phone, one for the rest of us (to buy a very affordable local SIM card.) The government is then able to track us while we are in the country /2 #ContactTracing
    Once through immigration and baggage, we are required to take govt-approved covid-safe cars to our quarantine hotels. (If you are a local, you can self-isolate at home.) No leaving your room (or home) for 15 days. Not for walks- nothing. /3
    At the hotel: meals are left outside your door three times a day. There is no contact with anyone. Every day, you get a call from the health department asking if you have any symptoms. If so, they will immediately rush you to the hospital for care. /4

    As a sidebar, I have discovered that I am weirdly okay having all my daily living decisions made for me. Have not yet gone crazy confined within four walls. Perhaps I would have made a good housepet. /5
    Never mind about domesticity, after 15 days, you are free to go. For 7 more days, you are required to check your temperature every morning (they actually gift you a thermometer) and someone calls every day to make sure you’re okay. /6
    Because most local citizens have voluntarily signed up for contact tracing (and all of us foreigners are required to opt-in) should a case break out, anyone who was in significant contact would be notified, then required to self-isolate for a number of days. /7
    At any point, if you break quarantine – which they can tell by the movements of your phone – you could be fined 10-30k. They are quite serious on this point. Then again, they haven’t had a case in 200 days. And everyone has been living their lives freely since February./8
    A note on contact tracing: I’m no expert, and historically a proponent of privacy, but if you have a credit card, or downloaded any number of apps, it seems “they” already have your info. So in a gosh-darn pandemic: sign up for contact tracing! /9
    Again, not an expert. But again: EVERYONE IN TAIWAN HAS BEEN LIVING THEIR LIVES FREELY SINCE FEBRUARY! I mean yes, people voluntarily wear masks in public places, but otherwise, restaurants, subways, etc are packed. So…. /10

    I guess this could have been our lives too? Food for thought… /end

  2. Teve says:

    “If President Trump comes out and says: ‘Guys, I have irrefutable proof of fraud, the courts won’t listen, and I’m now calling on Americans to take up arms,’ we would go,” said Fryar, wearing a button-down shirt, pressed slacks and a paisley tie during a recent interview at his office.


  3. Teve says:


    Remember a few weeks ago when we were like oh my God how can so many people vote for Trump, and now we’re like oh my God how can so many people threaten to burn this country down for Trump

  4. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Bill Pascrell, Jr.

    I’ve just filed legal complaints with the AZ, MI, NV, NY, and PA bars against Rudy Giuliani and 22 other lawyers seeking their disbarments for filing frivolous lawsuits and trying to help Trump steal the election and dismantle democracy.

    Bill Pascrell, Jr.

    Here is a copy of my complaint to the New York State judicial conduct body calling for Rudy Giuliani’s law license to be stripped. Similar letters were sent to four other states against Trump lawyers.

    A guy can dream, but if he’s up to date on his dues, there’s no way.

  5. Teve says:


    Huge loss for Trump in the big federal court challenge. Scathing opinion. Calls it meritless. This thing is way over.

  6. OzarkHillbilly says:

    I am reading Judge Brann’s decision from the US Middle District of PA.

    Brad Heath @bradheath said,

    A federal judge has dismissed President Trump’s lawsuit seeking to overturn the results of the election he lost in PA. The decision is pretty brutal. He sums up Trump’s case as “strained legal arguments without merit and speculative accusations.”

    I have to say it is brutal, Parscell is right, the Bar should throw these guys out for the mortal sin of filing this joke to begin with.

    Plaintiffs’ only remaining claim alleges a violation of equal protection. This claim, like Frankenstein’s Monster, has been haphazardly stitched together from two distinct theories in an attempt to avoid controlling precedent. The general thrust of this claim is that it is unconstitutional for Pennsylvania to give states discretion to adopt a notice-and-cure policy. Invoking Bush v. Gore, Plaintiffs assert that such local control is unconstitutional because it creates an arbitrary system where some persons are allowed to cure procedurally defective mail-in ballots while others are not. Apparently recognizing that such a broad claim is foreclosed under the Third Circuit’s decision in Bognet, Plaintiffs try to merge it with a much simpler theory of harm based on the cancellation of Individual Plaintiffs’ ballots in order to satisfy standing.37 Because Individual Plaintiffs’ votes were invalidated as procedurally defective, Individual Plaintiffs argue, for purposes of standing, that their claim is based on the denial of their votes. But on the merits, Plaintiffs appear to have abandoned this theory of harm and instead raise their broader argument that the lack of a uniform prohibition against notice-and-cure is unconstitutional.38 They assert this theory on behalf of both Individual Plaintiffs and the Trump Campaign.

    That Plaintiffs are trying to mix-and-match claims to bypass contrary precedent is not lost on the Court. The Court will thus analyze Plaintiffs’ claims as if they had been raised properly and asserted as one whole for purposes of standing and the merits. Accordingly, the Court considers Plaintiffs as alleging two equal-protection claims. The first being on behalf of Individual Plaintiffs whose ballots were cancelled. And the second being on behalf of the Trump Campaign and raising the broad Bush v. Gore arguments that Plaintiffs allege is the main focus of this lawsuit.39 The Court analyzes both claims separately for purposes of standing and the merits analysis.

  7. OzarkHillbilly says:

    And then there is this:

    This is precisely the situation presented here. Individual Plaintiffs have adequately pled that their votes were denied. As discussed above, the denial of a vote is a highly personal and concrete injury. That Individual Plaintiffs had their ballots cancelled and thus invalidated is sufficiently personal to establish an injury in fact. It is of no matter that many persons across the state might also have had their votes invalidated due to their county’s failure to implement a curing procedure. Accordingly, the Court finds that Individual Plaintiffs have established injury in fact.


    However, Individual Plaintiffs fail to establish that Defendant Counties or Secretary Boockvar actually caused their injuries. First, Defendant Counties, by Plaintiffs’ own pleadings, had nothing to do with the denial of Individual Plaintiffs’ ability to vote. Individual Plaintiffs’ ballots were rejected by Lancaster and Fayette Counties, neither of which is a party to this case. None of Defendant Counties received, reviewed, or discarded Individual Plaintiffs’ ballots. Even assuming that Defendant Counties unconstitutionally allowed other voters to cure their ballots, that alone cannot confer standing on Plaintiffs who seek to challenge the denial of their votes.

    Second, Individual Plaintiffs have not shown that their purported injuries are fairly traceable to Secretary Boockvar. Individual Plaintiffs have entirely failed to establish any causal relationship between Secretary Boockvar and the cancellation of their votes. The only connection the Individual Plaintiffs even attempt to draw is that Secretary Boockvar sent an email on November 2, 2020 to some number of counties, encouraging them to adopt a notice-and-cure policy.
    Further, that this email encouraged counties to adopt a notice-and-cure policy does not suggest in any way that Secretary Boockvar intended or desired Individual Plaintiffs’ votes to be cancelled. To the contrary, this email suggests that Secretary Boockvar encouraged counties to allow exactly these types of votes to be counted. Without more, this Court cannot conclude that Individual Plaintiffs have sufficiently established that their injuries are fairly traceable to Secretary Boockvar.56

  8. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Neither of these orders would redress the injury the Individual Plaintiffs allege they have suffered. Prohibiting certification of the election results would not reinstate the Individual Plaintiffs’ right to vote. It would simply deny more than 6.8 million people their right to vote. “Standing is measured based on the theory of harm and the specific relief requested.”58 It is not “dispensed in gross: A plaintiff’s remedy must be tailored to redress the plaintiff’s particular injury.”59Here, the answer to invalidated ballots is not to invalidate millions more. Accordingly, Plaintiffs have not shown that their injury would be redressed by the relief sought.

  9. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Actor calls out director for criticizing his ‘tiny’ apartment during Zoom audition

    At the start of the clip, which has racked up more than 4m views, Gage is fixing his hair when a voice with a British accent quips: “These poor people live in these tiny apartments like I’m looking at his, you know, background and he’s got his TV and his, you know …”

    Gage, smiling, tells the director: “I know it’s a shitty apartment. That’s why give me this job so I can get a better one.”
    When the director apologizes, Gage adds: “I’m living in a four-by-four box, it’s fine, just give me the job and we’ll be fine.”
    “I’m mortified,” the director says as someone starts to laugh in the background.

    Kevin McHale

    Thank u @lukasgage for posting this. Actors have to walk out on the plank and be open and vulnerable in an audition and too often the people on the other side have 0 regard for what that takes and how personal it is. fuck ’em. (also that room is nice & u handled that v well)

    ETA Speaking only for myself, it looks like a pretty nice place to me, nicer than a lot of places I lived in. As far as size goes, can’t really tell how big it is but I’ve lived in shoe boxes.

  10. charon says:

    I have been deep diving AZ Covid data. Cases up 42.6% in last 7 days, that rate if exponential pretty grim.

    7-day rolling avg of cases per day and rank per this site:

    Rt and 7-day pct gain from this:

    AZ CD-8   42.6/100K:  #188

    AZ —     40.6/100K:  #32  11-22-20  Rt=1.13

    Pct increase in 7 days:  42.6%:

  11. charon says:

    Deep diving Covid data at this site:

    7-day rolling avg. new cases/100K:


    0 days ago: 51.4/100K  

    7 days ago: 44.1/100K

    14   days ago    33.1/100K

    21 days ago   24.2/100K


    U,S. Midwest states:

    0 days ago: 91.3/100K
    7 days ago: 88.4/100K

    14   days ago    62.2/100K

    21 days ago   44.3/100K


    U,S. West states:

    0   days ago: 44.0/100K  

    7   days ago: 33.8/100K

    14   days ago    24.4/100K

    21 days ago   18.5/100K



    0   days ago: 43.7/100K

    7   days ago: 30.8/100K

    14   days ago    22.4/100K

    21 days ago   18.5/100K

  12. charon says:

    If you look around the map of states here, new cases seem to be past a peak and declining in the midwest.

    Some big states are currently showing rapid increases including CA, FL, VA, PA, NC, GA plus some of the smaller ones.

  13. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @charon: Misery still has a test positivity rate of 20.8%, our case #s continue to grow at a rate of 3,510/day. Our hospitalizations have gone from 1,632 on 11/1 to 2,851 on 11/18 and our ICU availability is down to 29%.

    Needless to say I’m not feeling quite so sanguine this week of the coming super spreader event called Thanksgiving.

  14. Teve says:

    Kelly Loeffler quarantined with the Rona.

  15. gVOR08 says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: A bit in Slate reminded me to look further ahead. Christmas is going to be worse than Thanksgiving. In addition to ‘I wanna see my family’ we’ll get ‘those libs are using the virus to attack religion and take Christ out of Christmas.’

  16. CSK says:

    Mr. Director may live in one of those 40,000 square foot mausoleums of which some Hollywood people are so enamored.

  17. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @gVOR08: Guaran-fn’-teed.

    @CSK: Maybe not, he’s a Brit.

  18. Mike says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I wonder when folks will start believing in science again. In my limited experience w the COVID deniers – there seems to be a direct correlation w overall health. Most deniers I know are, exactly who needs to take precautions. Old, or obese or no exercise routine ( this century) or all the above. Generally the folks I see who take care of themselves, diet, exercise, and don’t resemble a basketball shape, tend to take precautions Merica

  19. CSK says:

    Oh, I know. But he could still live in Hollywood. Or even some vast pile of his own in England.

  20. CSK says:

    Newsmax told Sidney Powell that what she’s alleging “is, frankly, nuts.”

    My word. When you’ve lost Newsmax, you know you should throw in the towel.

  21. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Mike: A lot of folks never have believed in science. They think it’s all magic.

  22. charon says:

    Thread with several interesting maps:

    Covid Epi Weekly Thread: Worser and Worser, Every Week

    Cases increasing exponentially in most of US; current epicenter including increasing hospitalizations, deaths is in midwest. Likely half million new infections/day. In Dakotas, an estimated 1 in 11 people have Covid.

  23. Mu Yixiao says:


    From what I can see in that photo, that’s a nice looking apartment. I lived in one place where my kitchen was literally a closet. 4×8 feet, a shelf along one side with a 12″ sink in it. My clothes hung along the back wall–next to the antique fridge I rented from the lady next door. For two years I did all my cooking with a hotplate and a toaster oven.

    Another time, I lived in company housing–which was a converted medical clinic. My room was the surgery. 🙂

  24. charon says:

    Posting here because the relevant thread kinda dead.

    LGM discussing what is Trumpism.

    Before answering it, we need to have some idea of what “Trumpism” even means.

    As to the latter, here’s what seems to me to be Trumpism’s most salient characteristics:

    *Open white supremacy

    *Open nativism

    *Open misogyny

    *Open contempt for experts, intellectuals, universities, etc.

    *Open embrace of reactionary Christianity as the informal state religion

    *Open hatred of independent journalism

    *Open authoritarianism

    *A cult of personality organized around a celebrity

    The key concept here, obviously, is “open.” With the partial exception of the last item in this list, Trumpism is simply movement conservatism with the mask ripped off. But the latter point is absolutely crucial: The whole appeal of Trumpism to the Republican base is precisely that it’s an open rejection of progressive shibboleths of every kind.

    I’ve long believed that the central organizing principle of movement conservatism was a wholesale rejection of “political correctness,” now rebranded as “cancel culture,” and “social justice.” Trump provided an 180-proof version of this.

  25. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Rex Chapman
    Horse racing

    Never forget that we’re all in this together. Spread the love.

    Be kind. It ain’t hard…

    I sure wish whoever is cutting onions would open up some ventilation in here.

  26. DrDaveT says:


    I’ve long believed that the central organizing principle of movement conservatism was a wholesale rejection of “political correctness,” now rebranded as “cancel culture,” and “social justice.” Trump provided an 180-proof version of this.

    Who would have guessed that the thing Evangelicals can’t stand the most is being preached back at?

  27. charon says:


    *Open embrace of reactionary Christianity as the informal state religion

    I would personally quibble with that word informal. As CSK pointed out re the commenters at, plenty of people feel entitled to an actual de jure Republic of Gilead. (Consider David Barton’s “history”).

  28. DrDaveT says:


    I would personally quibble with that word informal.

    Agreed. Take Hobby Lobby, for instance. Does anyone really believe it would ever be used to protect the rights of Muslim or Buddhist or Jewish business owners to impose behaviors on their Christian employees?

  29. Jay L Gischer says:

    @charon: I have a bit of a quibble with that LGM piece. I think this is not sufficiently general:

    I’ve long believed that the central organizing principle of movement conservatism was a wholesale rejection of “political correctness,”

    I think the central organizing principle of the Conservative Movement is “I hate liberals”, whatever that means to you. It might mean, “I want less regulation for my business”. It might mean, “I want lower taxes”. It might mean, “I hate cancel culture”. It might mean, “I hate affirmative action”.

    Ronald Reagan stitched these all together with, “government isn’t the solution to the problem, government is the problem”. This is how a party dedicated to reaction, to stopping people from doing things, works.

    The primary thesis of the piece – that Trumpism will still be thriving – is pretty solid. Although I note that Trumpism has shrunk the Republican Party, and will probably continue to do so.

  30. Michael Cain says:

    @charon: Trump may run a good revival preacher style rally, but he isn’t up there selling religion explicitly.

  31. Teve says:

    Rep. Anthony Sabatini


    Real Tweet.

  32. Kurtz says:

    What is it about Ophthalmology that attracts idiots?

    I just linked the good doctor’s Twitter TL. But he keeps bleating about this study, which was rejected by other prestigious journals before being published in Annals of Internal Medicine.

    At the link, there is plenty of commentary discussing hiw the study is flawed, and thus why it the other journals were justified in declining publication. But forget that for a second. I’ve attached some quotes from the study itself at the bottom. Decide for yourself.

    Before that, I have to point out a couple things.

    -For a group of people who spend their time denigrating expertise, they sure love credentialed people who agree with them.

    -The screening process for medical schools seems inadequate for detecting people who are pursuing medicine for money/prestige rather than intrinsic human and scientific interests. Whether it adequately screens for intellectual skills rather than standardized test/scholastic prowess is also questionable.

    On to the quotes:

    The recommendation to wear surgical masks to supplement other public health measures did not reduce the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers by more than 50% in a community with modest infection rates, some degree of social distancing, and uncommon general mask use. The data were compatible with lesser degrees of self-protection.

    Although no statistically significant difference in SARS-CoV-2 incidence was observed, the 95% CIs are compatible with a possible 46% reduction to 23% increase in infection among mask wearers. These findings do offer evidence about the degree of protection mask wearers can anticipate in a setting where others are not wearing masks and where other public health measures, including social distancing, are in effect. The findings, however, should not be used to conclude that a recommendation for everyone to wear masks in the community would not be effective in reducing SARS-CoV-2 infections, because the trial did not test the role of masks in source control of SARS-CoV-2 infection. During the study period, authorities did not recommend face mask use outside hospital settings and mask use was rare in community settings (22). This means that study participants’ exposure was overwhelmingly to persons not wearing masks.

  33. Teve says:

    Seen on Twitter

    “Lil Wayne is what you get when you pour Four Loko on a gremlin.”

  34. Kurtz says:


    I second that, except I don’t think it’s a quibble. If anything, Protestantism has been the informal state religion for a long time. They are not after the de facto status they’ve long enjoyed; they seek de jure status.

    A non-trivial chunk, including some elected and appointed officials, seem to be actively trying to bring about Armageddon via foreign policy. The rest are merely trying to make sure they remain the dominant cultural force. The latter is a threat to many people. The former is a threat to the whole planet.

  35. Michael Cain says:

    @Kurtz: If anything, Protestantism has been the informal state religion for a long time. They are not after the de facto status they’ve long enjoyed; they seek de jure status.

    And so they’ve installed a Supreme Court that is overwhelmingly Catholic and Jewish to deliver it for them.

  36. Sleeping Dog says:


    I maybe wrong about this, but isn’t the mask recommendation based on limiting exposure to covid by reducing the transmission of the virus from infected individuals, i.e. the mask reduces the expulsion of moisture droplets that carry the virus, rather than an individual inhaling the virus.

  37. charon says:

    @Michael Cain: @Michael Cain:

    but he isn’t up there selling religion explicitly.

    Except I was describing Trumpism, not Trump himself.

    Trump has a transactional relationship to the theocrats, but the Trumpist voters are preponderantly evangelicals, traditionalist Catholics, other traditionalist or Bible literalist Christians and ultra-orthodox Jews e.g. the Hasidim.


    They are not after the de facto status they’ve long enjoyed; they seek de jure status.


  38. charon says:

    @Sleeping Dog:

    i.e. the mask reduces the expulsion of moisture droplets that carry the virus, rather than an individual inhaling the virus.

    Giving people that impression that masks only protect other people was a big mistake considering how selfish many people are. Masks also provide substantial protection to the wearers.

  39. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @CSK: Two comments: 1) No kidding! 😛
    2) Newsmax a site that does journalism? Didn’t see that coming. I always thought that it was simply a conservative–subsequently Trump–propaganda organ. And that was from day one when, while I still was willing to buy a conservative world view, I thought, “Finally! A news site that tells things from MY perspective.”

  40. Mister Bluster says:

    @charon:..(Consider David Barton’s “history”).
    Consider Mike Huckabee’s threat to kill American Citizens if they don’t follow Barton.

    HUCKABEE: I don’t know anyone in America who is a more effective communicator [than David Barton.] I just wish that every single young person in America would be able to be under his tutelage and understand something about who we really are as a nation. I almost wish that there would be something like a simultaneous telecast and all Americans would be forced, forced — at gun point no less — to listen to every David Barton message. And I think our country would be better for it. I wish it’d happen.

    Some commenters on these threads claimed that he was “joking” when he said this.
    I think that Citizen Huckleberry was serious. “I wish it’d happen.”

  41. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Michael Cain: That’s understandable, though. Public service isn’t where the money is at all, and evangelicals seem all about the Benjamins–it’s the tangible sign of God blessing you, donchakno? In my lifetime, I’ve known exactly ONE evangelical lawyer whose pro-bono service was noteworthy. I went to school with him, and when we read an article about his pro-bono work–which he took sabbaticals from his firm periodically to do–his fellow classmates and I agreed: We definitely hadn’t seen that coming. Not at all!

  42. CSK says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker:
    Apparently during this interview Powell claimed that Bernie Sanders actually won the 2016 Democratic primary, but was paid off by Hillary Clinton supporters to concede. Clinton also used Dominion software to cheat Sanders out of the win.

    In the same interview, Powell also claimed that Dominion paid off Brian Kemp as part of the conspiracy to defeat Trump. (This strikes me as slander; she’s accusing Kemp of a crime without any justification for so doing.)

    This woman IS nuts. “N-v-t-s nuts,” as Ron Carey said in History of the World, Part One.

  43. Michael Reynolds says:

    @Mu Yixiao:

    I believe I have you both beat. Katherine and I spent about five months living in a room the size of a walk-in closet. Not one of those Hollywood walk-in closets, more like a nice suburban walk-in closet. Single bed. Tiny sink in one corner. Tiny black and white TV, no cable. Bathroom down the hall. No kitchen. And the door was slatted, so no privacy.

    I’ve told this story before, but prior to the closet we’d been living in in a shabby hotel on the boardwalk in Ocean City, MD, where we covered the night shift. Got into a dispute with the owner, an Italian guy, who made the mistake of telling my wife, “I don’t talk to no woman.” To which (future beloved children’s book author and Newbury winner) Katherine said, “You’ll talk to this woman, motherfucker.”

    We were fired and ejected. Hence the five months in the closet.

    My house now is right at 2000 sq. feet. It’s never been about size for me, it’s always view/location. I can see both sunrise and sunset, as well as the Griffith and the Hollywood sign. Would not mind an extra bedroom/office, but I’ll take view any day.

  44. Michael Reynolds says:


    Giving people that impression that masks only protect other people was a big mistake considering how selfish many people are.

    The bigger mistake was harping on the disparate racial impact. I groaned when I started hearing that because I knew that to Republicans it would be a feature not a bug. A disease that kills off Black people, Native Americans and Hispanics? That’s a conservative’s dream come true.

  45. Teve says:

    @CSK: the hand count in Georgia matched the software count to within 0.1%. Trump gained like 1250 votes out of over 5 million cast, which would change the final result by 0.025%.

  46. Flat earth luddite says:

    As a semi-retired paralegal of many years experience (I like to think of myself as Della Street in drag lol), this is generally the kind of cobbled together crap we’d see from 2nd year associates in a last minute filing, not experienced senior level attorneys. Rudi, at al, if this is the best you can do, retire!

  47. CSK says:

    It’s hard to keep up, but isn’t the Trump campaign demanding yet another recount?

    Sidney Powell is promising a lawsuit of “Biblical” proportions.

  48. dazedandconfused says:


    “If President Trump comes out and says: ‘Guys, I have irrefutable proof of fraud, the courts won’t listen, and I’m now calling on Americans to take up arms,’ we would go,” said Fryar, wearing a button-down shirt, pressed slacks and a paisley tie during a recent interview at his office.

    If my only sources of information were ONAN (sic) and QANON I’d probably step out too. Likely there will be individual self-starter terrorists here and there but all the guys standing by for Trump to put his own neck on the line? They will always be waiting.

  49. Kurtz says:

    @Michael Cain:

    And so they’ve installed a Supreme Court that is overwhelmingly Catholic and Jewish to deliver it for them.

    I’m not sure of your point here.

    Historically, Catholics were marginalized in the US. It wasn’t until the late 60s and early 70s, when the move to the current political alignment started, that se Catholics moved to the GOP. Nixon increased his share of the Catholic vote by more than 20 points between 1968 and 1972.

    Catholics are split almost evenly between the parties, at best a slight lean to D. But Catholics seem to swing a bit in elections. My guess is it’s turnout related rather than actual swing voters, but that’s just a suspicion.

    One confounding factor is race: Hispanic Catholics are much more Democratic than White Catholics.

    Ragerdless of the raw percentage, conservative Catholics are critical to the GOP at this point, given electoral margins.

    Only about 25-30% of Jewish people are Republican/lean Republican.

    Leaving all of that aside:

    Given their overwhelming support for Trump, White Evangelicals don’t seem to have a problem voting for or with groups they dislike, if it serves their policy goals.

  50. Kurtz says:

    @Sleeping Dog:

    Yes. That’s my understanding as well. The study explicitly states in multiple places that it didn’t test for source control, i.e. masks reducing spread from an infected person.

    The Twittering Ophthalmologist either didn’t read the study, read it and didn’t understand it, or is lying about what it says. None of those are good.

  51. Kylopod says:


    Catholics are split almost evenly between the parties, at best a slight lean to D.

    Except for 2000 they’ve been a bellwether in presidential elections since the birth of exit polls. They even voted against John Kerry, the first Catholic nominee since Kennedy. But they voted for Biden this year, after voting for Trump last time.

  52. gVOR08 says:

    @Kurtz: I wasn’t sure of Michael Cain’s point either, but there are Catholics because it is the norm for nominees to not discuss possible cases, so Catholicism became a dogwhistle of reliability on abortion for Republican Justices and similarly made confirmation a little easier for D Justices.

  53. OzarkHillbilly says:

    For James: Goodbye To All That

    So yeah, I changed. Trump’s win forced me to get outside of my bubble a bit and try to understand his appeal outside the urban pockets of fabulousness I inhabited. It opened my eyes to the lasting structural racism and resentments that still plague our polity. It made me recognize that a lot of the oppo research drops I had specialized in and that I thought were just part of “the game” contributed to a toxic media disinformation stew that was driving parts of the country off the deep end.

    It made me prioritize a bunch of issues that I never really saw as being up for debate between the parties—free and fair elections, pluralism, freedom of religion, the rule of law, welcoming immigrants, basic competence, governing for all Americans regardless of whether they voted for you. As it turns out, my old party was on the wrong side of basically all of those. Meanwhile I deprioritized a bunch of things I used to really care about.

    I’m just being real here: Who gives a fuck about the top marginal tax rate and WOTUS regulations when our actual democracy is under threat by a sitting president who is simultaneously trying to overturn an election and actively exacerbating a pandemic that has killed 250,000 Americans on his watch by holding insane superspreader rallies and peddling anti-science nonsense? Not me.

    Throughout the last five years, my alienation from the party has been apparent to anyone who suffers through my tweets. But getting out of a toxic relationship is hard. You take one step. Then there’s backsliding. Then you take another step. So while I’ve known where this was going for a while—I voted for Hillary, for godsakes—I still held out some hope that the relationship was salvageable. That it was worth fighting for.

    Sitting here today watching these Republican assholes sit silently while the president trashes our democracy with preposterous conspiracies and becomes the first modern president to refuse to concede an election, it’s clear that any hopes for reconciliation were folly.

    In short: It’s me. But it’s also you. It’s over.

    And to be honest for all the non-Mitt and non-Larry pols who stuck around, I don’t think we’re ever going to be able to make up.

  54. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @CSK: True enough, but it’s not like Newsmax has ever been a beacon of reason in a confusing world exactly, either. Still, when Newsmax thinks you’re unhinged, that’s gotta be waaaaaaaayyy out there. As Tyrell might say, “so far out in left field that she’s not even in the parking lot anymore.”

  55. Kylopod says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker: Well, Tucker Carlson stepped in it. He did a segment where he pointed out that Powell had no evidence to support her claims. After right-wingers in his audience started blowing a gasket on social media, he quickly backpedaled, saying she has not yet presented her evidence.

  56. charon says:


    % infected by counties, etc.

  57. Michael Cain says:


    I’m not sure of your point here.

    It was an (obviously unsuccessful) attempt at humor. Evangelical protestants want their religion to be, at least unofficially, the state religion. I found it amusing that the SCOTUS they will need to make that happen is almost exclusively Catholic or Jewish, not protestant.

  58. charon says:


    Catholics are split almost evenly between the parties, at best a slight lean to D

    My view that split is largely traditionalist Catholics one way, more pragmatic ones the other.

  59. Kylopod says:

    @Michael Cain:

    I found it amusing that the SCOTUS they will need to make that happen is almost exclusively Catholic or Jewish, not protestant.

    The Jews on the SCOTUS (Breyer and Kagan, the recently deceased RBG) are solidly on the Democratic side.

    I have my doubts a modern Republican will ever select a Jew to be on the Court; even if he’s very right-wing, he’s likely to be wobbly on abortion (from their perspective).

  60. Sleeping Dog says:


    Catholics are the R idea of an acceptable minority.

  61. CSK says:

    Vladimir Putin says he will not acknowledge Biden as the winner until Trump does.

  62. Jax says:

    I guess the Parler crew is ACTUALLY threatening a Georgia runoff boycott. I would soooooooo LMAO if they actually did and both seats went Dem!

  63. Matt says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Remember when Bush v. Gore was supposed to be a single use decision never to be referenced or used as precedent? Yeah I’m still “butt hurt” over that travesty of a ruling…

    EDIT : wow edit worked for the first time

  64. grumpy realist says:

    Mr. 9-1-1 is now claiming that Sydney Powell isn’t on the POTUS’s legal team.

    So what is she doing making noises in front of the TV cameras? As a lamprey hanger-on? And who’s ego is shoving her off the team? Trump’s or Giuliani’s?

    (I’d be more worried about the results except indeed this is the team that couldn’t shoot straight.)

  65. Teve says:

    @grumpy realist: came here to post that. The three stooges are down to two. 😀

  66. sam says:

    Hungadunga, Hungadunga, Hungadunga, Hungadunga & McCormick is looking for a junior partner, I understand.

  67. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Matt: Remember when Bush v. Gore was supposed to be a single use decision never to be referenced or used as precedent?

    Yeah, we all knew that was bullshit.

  68. Jay L Gischer says:

    Andrew Donaldson airs it out here:

    Andrew is a lawyer in Real Life ™. He begins:

    There are important subtleties to knowing when one is getting wet from the rain, and when one being relieved upon by a person loudly pretending that it is only rain. This knowledge is so important, in fact, that the old saying “Don’t pee on my leg/back/whatever and tell me it’s raining” has traditionally been the final warning and last available exit in a dispute before things get truly heated. The old timers understood that while you tolerated the rain, there was no tolerance for malicious interpersonal tinkling under the guise of precipitation.

  69. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @CSK: When I programmed that information, my DGAFivac 2020 just spit the card back out without processing it, but the item made me laugh at least.

  70. dazedandconfused says:

    @grumpy realist:

    It should be clear by now Rudy is out to corner the batshit-crazy market, and Sydney busted a move in him. It was either up his game or “sweep the leg”.

  71. Kurtz says:

    @Michael Cain:

    Ah, okay. I was confused.

  72. Jax says:

    Good news….the County Health Department already notified everyone and my brother did his sermon remotely.

    Whew. Now I only have to worry about the little girls my nieces played basketball against and might have spread it to before showing symptoms.

  73. CSK says:

    Team Trump has canned Sidney Powell.

  74. Mister Bluster says:

    @CSK:..Team Trump has canned Sidney Powell.

    Just as President Pud can’t have any competition for attention Rudy can’t have anyone crazier than him stealing the spotlight.

  75. CSK says:

    @Mister Bluster:
    The Trumpkins are going insane trying to figure out if this is 64-dimensional chess.

  76. DrDaveT says:


    The Trumpkins are going insane trying to figure out if this is 64-dimensional chess.

    …when it’s really 64-IQ chess.

  77. charon says:
  78. CSK says:

    That’s for sure.
    Haberman has pretty good sources.