Thursday’s Forum
Steven L. Taylor
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Thursday, February 22, 2024
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57 comments
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor of Political Science and a College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored
A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog).
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Ala-fckin’-bama.
Biden comments a disgrace says Kremlin after he calls Putin a ‘crazy SOB’
If a tree falls in the forest, does anybody care?
@OzarkHillbilly: 2 separate comments, I should have put an “also” before the Biden headline.
In what seems a bizarre move, Nikki Haley has gone on record as supporting Alabama’s definition of embryos as persons (no subscription needed). I can’t imagine why she thinks this is a good idea, unless she has cut some kind of deal with a powerful anti-abortion group. Is any group able to mobilize enough voters to offset the ones she will lose, though?
Also interesting is her comments provide a perfect example of the semantically meaningless, tone-based answers she often gives, where she seems engaged, empathetic and practical but even a cursory examination of her words reveals they don’t actually mean anything. It is policy by bad generative AI: make sentences that sound sophisticated using these words. Despite at first being unequivical
She then tries to backtrack or at least muddy the waters
If you can find any meaning in that you’re better at this than me.
@MarkedMan:
Positioning herself to Trump’s right on the issue in order to win over the “hidden” evangelical vote, while retaining her general-election strength she’s been enjoying in polls due to her media-crafted image as the moderate in the race, which so far has seemed immune to any of the actual positions she takes.
That’s why she believes it’s a good strategy. Of course, it’s totally delusional. She’s not going to beat Trump in the primaries, and even if she did somehow become the nominee after he keels over from one too many hamberders, her position on this particular issue would damage her in the general.
@MarkedMan: Whoops! She’s already walking it back – sort of.
So, does she agree with the Alabama ruling? Well she accepts the premise, but she quickly points out she didn’t say whether or not she agreed with the decision based on the premise. And then adds a bunch of word salad that expresses concern but means nothing.
@MarkedMan: It’s remarks like that one which prompt the Jeff Lebowski response: “What in God’s holy name are you blathering about?”
@MarkedMan: But she thinks that, like, you should look at it, man, because, like, baby…in vitro…women and doctors…….maybe that should or shouldn’t be legal either.
@MarkedMan: She’s learned from Trump. Her supporters will find what they want to find in that word salad and it’s hard for her critics to find anything definite to get ahold of.
*Snicker*:
The guy who was able to ‘prove him wrong’ is a Republican:
FAAFO.
@MarkedMan:
I noticed this on her NPR interview this morning. She needed to be able to say repeatedly that, for her, Joe Biden is more dangerous to America than Donald Trump. When pressed on that, her rationales were total word salad.
@ptfe: Years ago, the chattering class uniformly deemed that Bill and Hillary Clinton were lying liars who lied all the time, and it frequently came up as accepted fact in this forum. But when I challenged people for specifics, it was usually just “everyone knows” for Hillary, but for Bill it was a bit different. On the rare occasions when someone went into detail on the record, it was almost uniformly a variety of, “I talked with him for a long time and he told me that he understood my position and could see merit to it, and he actually expanded on it and seemed perfectly empathetic. Most importantly, he never told me he wasn’t going to go the way I wanted him to.” It’s just a razor stroke away from lying, but it was also, on balance, effective for him. I think Haley has hit upon a technique that removes the risk of being called a liar but achieves the same end. When she is challenged about a position that might split voters, it is all about how we must take these decisions seriously, that this is hard, that there are good people on both sides… but she never actually answers the question. I suspect this ability to not get pinned is part of the reason she is still in it and Desantis is out.
@MarkedMan: “And then adds a bunch of word salad that expresses concern but means nothing.”
Which is exactly the same as what happened when she was asked about the causes of the Civil War. She is so desperate to tell people only what they want to hear she ends up saying nothing in what turns out to be the most offensive way possible.
She has always been an empty suit. What she would actually do if elected is literally unimaginable.
@Jen: In the 1980s an Auschwitz survivor took up the challenge by a Holocaust-denying organization to prove the existence of the gas chambers, and when he did and they refused to pay up, he took them to court and won. The incident was later dramatized in a TV movie starring Leonard Nimoy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Mermelstein
@MarkedMan: The classic example of the Clinton lie is when he was asked about past marijuana use and he said he never broke the laws of this country—then it turned out he’d smoked a joint while in England.
It was incidents like that one that contributed to his reputation of being clever and devious, using the lawyer’s trick of misleading people without saying anything technically untrue, and it led to people losing sight of the larger picture that it was over a matter no one should have given a fuck about in the first place.
@Jen:
@Kylopod:
The late James Randi had a long standing $1 million challenge, for conclusive display or proof of supernatural abilities. The terms included means to test the ability claimed, and depended on said ability. Randi did not do this alone, but he was well qualified to spot fakery and trickery, being himself a stage magician.
The notable thing is he was open to be proved wrong on the matter. I remember in a late night show, he said he’d be delighted if he found real precognition, dowsing, or whatever. That would be a tremendous discovery.
There were few claimants, and it was never paid out.
@Kylopod:
But he didn’t inhale.
Like I said the other day about Trump refusing to pay all the fines he’s racking up:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/letitia-james-shes-prepared-seize-trumps-assets-pay/story?id=107381482
Jimmy Kimmel referenced this last night and I totally agree with him: “Nice to see a woman grabbing Trump’s assets for a change. When you’re the Attorney General, they let you do it.”
I so want to see this happen – the explosion will be measured on the Richter Scale.
@Kathy: I would make the wild guess that Randi was never forced by a court to pay a psychic who had fulfilled his challenge.
@Kylopod:
Clinton definitely had that lawyerly mind, shared by obnoxious 13 year olds, where they think they win on a technicality. It might (MIGHT!) work in court but it doesn’t work in relationships, as it destroys trust. But I know several lawyers, and none of them pull that in their personal lives.
That said, I hadn’t heard that story before, but as soon as I read those words I thought “Hmm, I wonder where he was when he broke their laws?” The non-denial denial is very common in politics and easily spotted. Clinton’s use of it doesn’t strike me as outside the norm.
I’ve wondered if the harsh judgement against him is part of the liberal bias in the media, in kind of a back handed way. I get the impression that when, say, George Bush or Bob Dole or Nikki Haley employ the non-denial denial or similar machination, the press kind of view it as sparring and mentally give points for a particularly deft response. But Clinton is one of us! He should be completely straight with us!
@Kylopod:
I don’t know if he was ever sued about it, but he never had to pay out.
@MarkedMan: She’s pandering to a constituency while hoping the rest of us realize she “doesn’t really mean it.” Trump did similarly on abortion years ago changing his position 3 or 4 times over as many hours.
@wr: Which, of course, makes her one of “the good Republicans” who deserve our support because they will end the “Trump nightmare.”
@Kylopod:
Sadly, you would guess wrong. He had to pay damages against Uri Gellar.Wow, for years I have believed that Uri Geller had won in court against Randi, but when I looked it up to provide a link to the statement I just crossed out, I discovered I had somehow been taken in by Uri Geller’s spin. It turns out thatAnd also
Remember New York sued Exxon for fraud over catastrophic anthropogenic climate change.
Destroyers of KiwiFarms Tony Reed and LGBTQIAnon+ are mad and calling for the heroes at the FBI to investigate.
@MarkedMan:
I would say that it’s mostly a reflection of the media’s habit of trying to pigeonhole every politician into a simplistic character type. And without trying to victim-blame, Clinton did have a habit of making the situation worse for himself by engaging in this lawyerly logic-chopping when he didn’t really need to.
Of course it’s hard to fault him too much from a political perspective, given that he did win two elections, but polls pretty consistently showed that the public perceived him to be untrustworthy–this against a candidate with proven trust issues on account of going back on a campaign pledge to never raise taxes. And it was during his presidency that much of the modern right-wing smear industry was born. The art of the right-wing smear went back a long way, of course, but it was during the Clinton years that it truly blossomed into an industry, with loads of books and other media containing all the salacious details of the numerous people Billary had secretly offed. It may not have succeeded in destroying him, but it set the stage for everything from Swift Boat to Hunter’s laptop, based on the eternal principle that the existence of the accusation is itself the proof.
@MarkedMan:
In what seems a bizarre move, Nikki Haley has gone on record as supporting Alabama’s definition of embryos as persons (no subscription needed). I can’t imagine why she thinks this is a good idea, unless she has cut some kind of deal with a powerful anti-abortion group.
——————
I think Nikki wants it both ways: she wants the MAGA voters, and she wants to be an alternative who appeals to ‘independent’ voters. Well, yeah …….. no.
Nikki is what passes for a ‘reasonable’ Republican. So let’s see what a ‘reasonable’ gets us. So far, (1) she’s stated that she will pardon Trump (you know, end the divisiveness in our country) and (2) supports Alabama’s IVF ruling.
I’m already sick of ‘reasonable’ Republican alternatives.
@al Ameda:
I think that’s also behind the entire rationale for her staying in the race at this point: I believe she’s picturing a situation where Trump’s legal problems reach a point where they render him effectively nonviable as a candidate, and then Republicans turn to her as the last person standing. Yet she would also simultaneously pretend to believe the prosecutions are an unfair partisan weaponization of the justice system against him. She’s already said she’d pardon him–which she thinks she could use as a carrot and stick to gain his support, while conveniently ignoring the fact that it would have no effect on the state cases.
Her Hail Mary is based on publicly decrying the very thing she wants to happen, and convincing his voters she means it sincerely. Something seems off about that plan.
@al Ameda:
@Kylopod:
The one valid moral purpose of a pardon, is to rectify an injustice (or to recognize one took place if it’s too late to put things right). As used by politicians, mostly on the right, it’s a means to avoid accountability, regardless of the potential penalties and retribution awaiting the person being pardoned.
I would favor limiting the pardon power to convicted persons, not those facing trial. Of course, this would require amending the constitution, as the pardon power is established in Article 2.
@Kylopod:
I agree with your read on this, and I think that’s a smart strategy (as long as she can fundraise to maintain).
@Kylopod: I think she’s counting on his legal challenges to knock him out of the running, his most ardent supporters will sit out the election, but her “mushy middle” play will allow for the Republican party to recapture the “drag your feet to vote for Biden” voters.
As you note, this does not feel like a solid strategy. There are too many “if/then” statements needed to get to 50%+1 in all of the swing states she would need to win.
Alabama is basically outlawing IVF as we know. Meanwhile, it is one of the states where it is most difficult to obtain timely obstetrical care. Doubt this recent ruling helps.
https://www.healthcare-economist.com/2024/02/21/55-of-us-rural-hospitals-are-no-longer-offer-birthing-services/
Steve
If Haley is engaging in the word salad, with a flurry of words that ultimately have no meaning, then I propose the phrase “word garnish” for this:
It’s very small, communicates nothing, but appears to be thought adjacent. There are fragments of meaning juxtaposed in ways that question that meaning. Aspersions of differing levels of genuineness sit in conflict. It’s a tiny rubric of paranoid right wing thought, like a rancid poem in prose, that you could stare at for hours and find new layers of meaning that may or may not have been intended.
Ain’t nobody got time for that shit.
I wish our hosts would just ban him, not for breaking any rules, but just for being annoying.
@MarkedMan: Even putting aside the fact that those lawsuits all failed, it seems they concerned defamation, and at least one of them wasn’t in a US court. While I don’t know the specifics of defamation law in Japan, I do know that outside the US it’s often a lot easier for plaintiffs to win such cases, so that if you were to say “Uri Geller is a stupid poo-poo head,” he might win damages against you simply by producing documentation that his IQ is above 75 and his head is made of material other than excrement.
What I was interested in is whether he’d won a case similar to the one mentioned earlier with Lindell as well as the one I brought up with the Holocaust deniers: where someone offers money to anyone who proves a specific claim, and then someone does and the person who made the offer refuses to pay up. The equivalent with Randi would be if Geller proved he could bend spoons, then Randi back-pedaled on his offer to pay anyone who did prove such a thing, and Geller took him to court over it. To my knowledge, I don’t think Geller or anyone else ever attempted such a lawsuit against Randi.
@MarkedMan:
Part of if is because Bill’s dishonesty, bimbo eruptions, and scummy behavior towards women stained the legacy of his otherwise successful presidency policy wise — damaging the Democratic Party brand and thus the presidential campaigns of both Al Gore and Hillary Clinton.
The reason Comey was the But Her Emails point person at the DOJ instead of Loretta Lynch was Bill Clinton’s unseemly failure to control himself (again). Remember? Discovering AG Lynch was on the same tarmac as he, Bill barged onto her plane. Lynch subsequently recused herself from the Emailghazigate investigation ‘because optics.’ That gave weak and easily-manipulated Comey authority to meddle in the election, unrestrained by his bosses.
If you didn’t already know it wasn’t true, you might presume from his sabotaging behavior Bill was working for Putin as much as Trump, MAGA, Jim Jordan, James Comer, Marjorie Taylor-Greene and Tucker Carlson — in their efforts to gut NATO, destroy European and American democracy, and takedown Biden via Russian spooks. Like they did Hillary.
@Gustopher: I think it was clearly done in an incoherent manner to waste our time. Classic trolling, should be banned without further ado.
@Gustopher: Hah! I was scrolling up and tried reading that sentence three times without looking at who posted it. I finally scrolled up a bit further to his name and went “Oh, of course”. I get burned like this way too often, you’d think I’d have learned by now.
@MarkedMan:
Hahahahaha omg
@Kylopod:
Randi issued an honest challenge.
Think of it as giving the claimants the opportunity to perform an experiment, with variables controlled and safeguards to prevent tricks or fakes. Naturally outright frauds, like Geller, didn’t take him up on it.
You know, as recently as when “Lost” was on, knowing to the minute when it would start and top raining was a trope that indicated either something supernatural or science fiction-y. I’m working from home this afternoon and walked to a coffee shop with my computer. Was deep into it when I happened to look out the window and notice it was pouring. Dang! How long would I be stuck here? I pulled out my pocket computer (phone) and it told me to the minute when I would have a window to walk home and it was dead on. I’m a tech head from way back but I’m not sure whether to be weirded out or not.
Marjorie Trailer Queen has some fashion advice for Christian women: They should not dress immodestly so as to cause “their Christian brothers to stumble.”
Sounds like blaming the victim to me. When a woman gets raped, it’s because she’s asking for it, you know.
@CSK:
I’ve seen her. She’s not qualified to give fashion advice to a blind gorilla.
@Gustopher:
Please state that Kiwi farms is not on the internet anymore #DropKiwiFarms or Exxon was convicted of fraud. I know that these are verboten topics that give progressives fits.
@CSK: It says a lot about how christian parents raise their children. I mean, if you’ve raised your sons in such a way that their first thought upon seeing a woman wearing a “sexy” dress is, “Hey, that’s permission for me to go up to her and grab some titty” that says oceans about what kind of parent you are.
Live blog for the latest private Moon landing attempt.
I think the appropriate expression for the wishes I want to convey is “Break a leg.”
@Kathy:
I make it a point never to criticize anyone’s appearance (except for Trump’s), but I wish MTG would cover up those short, fat arms of hers.
@MarkedMan:
Now MTG wants Judge Engoron to be disrobed (her word). I guess Hunter’s dick pix weren’t enough.
Damn, MTG is on a roll. She said that Nikki Haley is staying in the race because Haley is…menopausal.
@Gustopher: I struggled with wondering what connection the (uncited) two sentence opening had to the (uncited) blockquote. Never found an intermediate dot to connect the two, either. Still, it’s too obscure and puzzling to qualify as even a “word garnish.”
@CSK: “Marjorie Trailer Queen” is very clever. Did you come up with it yourself, or does someone else get the credit? (I don’t follow any of these knotheads closely enough to keep current .)
“Please state that Kiwi farms is not on the internet anymore #DropKiwiFarms or Exxon was convicted of fraud. I know that these are verboten topics that give progressives fits.”
This explanation did not enlighten me at all. Still not even a “word garnish,” either. 🙁 (I’m not even sure it’s grammatical. 😐 😐 )
@Paul L.: I don’t play your games.
If you cannot be bothered to write complete thoughts rather than a collage of snippets of right-wing dribbles dropped onto a canvas while standing on a ladder, I have no interest in you.
Your writing is the equivalent of:
Why do you think I would engage you on whatever your issues are? Why would anyone?
@Kathy:..private Moon landing attempt.
I wanted to be a rocket man ever since Alan Shepard blasted off for his sub orbital flight in 1961. I was 13 years old. I followed all the launches right up to the 1969 moon landing. Later that year I saw Kubrick’s 2001: A Space Odyssey. I thought for sure that I would celebrate my 30th birthday at a Howard Johnson’s Lunar Lodge.
(Gotta’ take a break to follow his moon landing attempt.)
Must be some delay as they keep mentioning the time. They just noted 5:23pm cst as being in the future and my phone is showing 5:29pm cst.
This is not good:
Better news:
They just said it is 5:34pm and my clock says 5:43pm.
I am confused.
OK they just reported that they are on the moon and are transmitting. Groovy.
I gotta’ go
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
Going with the known Republiqan scatophilia, I propose “verbal vomit.”
@Mister Bluster:
Latest word is “We are on the surface.”
They did not say in how many pieces.
@Just nutha ignint cracker: The poster in question appears to be mentally ill. I’m not being sarcastic
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
I don’t think I can take sole credit for “Marjorie Trailer Queen.” Several people have used it.
@MarkedMan: Serious or no, there may be one (and only “may” and probably only “one”) person among the usual cast of idiots here who is qualified to state that someone suffers from mental illness–and that person is likely to claim constraint by professional ethics against making such declarations about persons not seen professionally. It doesn’t matter whether you consider yourself serious, you’re out of your wheelhouse based on what you have described in the past about your knowledge and experience.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
No argument from me. But absent someone clearly qualified to make a diagnosis I’m going with my gut because if I am right the consequences of not engaging are trivial, while the consequences of unintentionally provoking are quite high.
@MarkedMan:
Find “weather radar” to see a moving map of the rain showers nearby. Been around a long time for aviation. Nice stuff.
@Gustopher:
That was funny.