LGBTQIA2+
An acronym has slowly morphed into a mnemonic device.
The CNN Business headline “Starbucks workers at 150 stores go on strike over Pride decorations” caught my attention but the story was something of a nothingburger: workers at some locations say corporate has restricted decorations celebrating Pride month in some locations and corporate says it has actively encouraged Pride celebrations in all company-owned stores.
I did note, however, that the workers’ statement complained of “hypocritical treatment of LGBTQIA+ workers,” while the corporate statement declared, “We unwaveringly support the LGBTQIA2+ community.”
We’re officially at the point where the understandable impulse toward inclusion has gone so far that, not only do we no longer have consensus on what the acronym is anymore but, I’d wager, most well-read folks who generally support letting others live their lives in peace have no idea what all the letters and symbols even mean. Given that language is supposed to communicate, that strikes me as a sign we need to rethink the nomenclature.
And, no, this isn’t some cheap “LGBTQLMNOP” joke.
I’ve seen us go from “gays and lesbians” to LGB to LGBT to LGBTQ. And I’ve seen variants from there, notably LGBTQ+. Hell, I use those acronyms with some frequency here. From a cisgender perspective, one would think the Q would have covered all of the bases no already hit with LGBT. And, certainly, the + should have done so.
The only other example of this phenomenon that I can readily think of—and the one that long ago caused me to coin the phrase “what was once an acronym has become a mnemonic device”—is one in military circles that took a similar evolution for similar reasons.
What was once command and control, or C2, evolved over a period of decades into C3 (command, control, and communications), C3I (command, control, communications, and intelligence), C4I (command, control, communications, computers, and intelligence), C4ISR (Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance), and C5ISR (Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Cyber, Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance). I’ve seen instances of C6ISR with “combat systems” as the 6th C and some attempts to add “space” in as an extra S.
At a macro level, all of the additional letters simply add nuance to the original C2; they are simply mechanisms for commanding and controlling or domains/tools in which commanding and controlling take place. At the same time, each additional letter/number adds useful nuance. But we’ve long since gotten to the point where the acronym has lost utility as an acronym—it’s too much of a mouthful to be useful in conversation. And we got there the same reason as we’ve gotten to LGBTQIA2+: stakeholders successfully lobbying for their niche to be acknowledged.
Returning to the LGBTQIA2+ acronym, we’d likely be better off adopting “queer” or some new coinage altogether to encompass all the non-vanilla flavors of sexual identity and orientation. But, rather clearly, nine letters and symbols is too unwieldy for conversation. Not only is that a lot to remember, there just aren’t a lot of nine-syllable words in routine use.
I can’t help but think of the protests I’ve attended in the Mall (the D.C. one, not a shopping center) and at Annapolis since Trump was elected. However well organized they are logistically, they are an absolute mess when it comes to the speakers. Hour after hour after hour of everyone under the sun, getting “their turn” to represent a group. You find yourself becoming dead to yet another story of determination overcoming discrimination and circumstances that, if it were told in isolation, would otherwise be incredibly moving. An hour and a half in and the audience (at least the ones in the range of sound system and Jumbotrons) does little more than look up when the speakers change to see if it is someone famous, and then go back to chatting or dozing or picnicking.
A few years back my wife participated in a walk for breast cancer in NYC, a marathon and a half in length, during an unseasonably hot spell, leading to a whole lot of the walkers ending up in medical tents. At the very end they herded all the remains walkers into an open cement area, sun blazing down on their heads, and sent speaker after speaker up to yammer at the participants about how moving their (the speaker’s) story was. This went on for almost an hour and half and by the end I was exhausted, hot and sweat soaked, and all I had done was make my way to the occasional street corner along the route so I could cheer her as she went by. I can’t even imagine what the people who had walked 39 miles in the heat were thinking.
The other problem with the acronym is it puts the focus on the subidentities within the community and even encourages some to start arguing that certain letters don’t belong.
One of the arguments for just sticking with queer is that it makes divide and conquer strategies harder and increases solidarity.
About 5 or 7 years ago, a gay friend told me he’d stopped using the LBG… acronym and simply used queer as a descriptor of the community. That was also about the time that he stopped going to his city’s pride events, saying that they’d stopped being celebrations and had become a dirge of grievance letting.
Yes, as someone who’s disposition is to let people lead their lives in peace, I have no idea what the IA2+ plus means and to be honest, I don’t really care.
What does the IA2+ stand for?
@Jax:
Intersex? I think the A is for asexual.
Any of you old enough to remember the turn of the millennium no doubt experienced the tedious prigs who lectured everyone around them that “well, 1999-2000 wasn’t actually the turn of the millennium after all and we should all be celebrating 2000-2001 instead”. This has a bit of that flavor to it.
Are we tentatively moving toward criticism of how the movement has managed its messaging? Do I still get to play the villain for having harped on this too soon for the room?
@MarkedMan:
Lousy, interminable speeches are one of the reasons I avoid protests. Going all the way back to an anti-Vietnam demo on the steps of the Iowa capitol building when I was 15 and my father was actually over there. And then again, same year, in 10th grade when I organized my school’s first ever Earth Day and made the mistake of getting college activists to speak. Several kids lapsed into coma. Most just wept and cried, ‘make it stop, for the love of God, make it stop!’
@Michael Reynolds: You sir, are a villain.
@Michael Reynolds: The chants are nearly as bad and tedious as the speeches.
It’s either a lame call-and-response thing, or it’s “Hey Ho, Hey Ho, Donald Trump has got to go!” (Repeat 50 times)
By the time I leave, my attitude changes to “meh”.
@Michael Reynolds:
Moving towards criticism? Lol when did old white men ever stop trashing, smearing, bashing, voting against, and pompously lecturing the queer community and minority groups, loudly insisting they know it all and know better as they always have and always do?
Since we’re now stereotypically lumping together entire demographics for critique, when do we start moving towards criticism of how old white men have mismanaged their image and messaging?
@Jax:
The 2 stands for Two Spirit, the collective term for the various indigenous cultural traditions for third genders that exist outside the western concept of transgender
@Michael Reynolds: It’s such a waste. The energy of the Woman’s March after Trump’s election was astounding. I’ve never been in a crowd that big in my life, so big that we actually couldn’t march because the entire route was full, with hundreds of thousands more spilling over into the surrounding areas. And the energy and determination! That enthusiasm could have survived the 4-5 hours of droning on, but by then the leadership had devolved into ugly petty battles over whether how much or whether the original two organizers should be on stage since they were white heterosexuals and which group should have the leadership instead. There were over a million people ready to be organized and led, high on shared anger and shared experiences and then… nothing. No follow up. The original organizers bowed out and those who took their places were more interested in airing internecine grievances then in actually getting stuff done.
(Smartest and most effective micro-group I saw? Fifteen or twenty women and teenage girls in hijabs with a few jump ropes and a hand lettered sign that said “Jump Rope With a Muslim!”. Lines all day long. I saw a middle aged Midwestern type having a blast despite obviously not having jumped rope for a couple of decades or more and having a lot more poundage to get up and down since then. I imagined her as from some small town in Iowa and I bet to this day whenever some neighbor makes a disparaging comment about Muslims she tells that story with delight and shining eyes.)
Oh great, another circle jerk of cranky old men crankily complaining about the gays and the kids.
Productive.
@DK:
Fair.
but there’s only two of us!
@Jax: In my never-ending quest to always provide TMI, I offer this article. The best that I found this time around. In a previous exploration of this question for my own curiosity, I encountered an exhaustive (more than 20, IIRC) list of various permutations of sexual expression that occur in the population not all that infrequently. It persuaded me to consider the possibility that there ain’t no normal in sexuality out there to begin with. Everybody has something about who they are and how they relate to others that makes relation…
…problematic.
(Of course, that can’t possibly be true, because if everyone has something
non-standardwrong with them…)@Michael Reynolds: You can be the
asshovillain if you want to. Nobody cares who the villain is when it’s not Trump or DeSantis.@Just nutha ignint cracker:
The difference being that they’re villain because they’re wrong. I’m a villain for being right too soon. Also, for having such a humble demeanor.
@Michael Reynolds:
You are worse than a villain, you’re a heretic. As an old white man, your role is to be an intellectual
allyvassal and nothing more.@Andy: Ha. Poor old white men. The martyred, voiceless victims of American society.
Some commenters here carry tedious, whiny self-pity to new levels of silliness. Embarrassing.
@Michael Reynolds: No moustache to twirl though. You’re not living up to your responsibilities.
@Sleeping Dog:
Thank gawd some people don’t have meltdowns over one sentence in one statement from some Starbucks workers, like the extremely-online Pavlovian dogs who’ve never encountered outrage bait they couldn’t be manipulated by.
What a concept.
@DK:
In the past month, I’ve seen both Douglas Murray and Andrew Sullivan make sharp comments on the co-opting of their hard fought wins. Both are old, perhaps cranky, white men but also were forces in the Gay marriage efforts as gay men. Both spoke of the difference between sexual attraction and gender identity. And both commented on how the push to rush children into irreversible Trans “treatment” looks a lot like an effort to erase gay boys and girls.
That is where your pushback is going to come from.
@DK:
What self pity? Your are projecting I think.
What’s embarrassing is how you consistently turn to calling people names and disparaging them in racist, sexist, and ageist terms whenever they disagree with you. MR only really disagrees with you on tactics, not goals, and yet you go out of your way to make him an enemy with your dumb name calling.
@JKB:
We need a word for the queer equivalent of a Kapo
@Andy: Although I thumbed up your comment, DK was at least justified in calling me cranky. In talking about the Women’s March I crossed the line from, “It was an incredible organizational success. The organizers weren’t able to turn that into organized followup actions, perhaps because…” to “Wah, wah, wah it didn’t turn out like I wanted it to so I’m going to trash the organizers.” The easiest form of commentary is complaint, followed by insult, but it is shallow and useless and tiresome.
@Stormy Dragon: What’s a Kapo?
@DK:
I think it’s more cluelessness. Being addicted to factionalism is one of the a priori properties of the left. This is what people on the left do, and especially what people who enjoy organizing do. When Americans complain about this, it’s because America is not a political country. The only kind of leadership we have is the corporate/branding/message type.
@MarkedMan:
The Jewish people who helped the Nazis opress other Jewish people in exchange for better treatment
@JKB: Color me shocked that Andrew Sullivan has taken a break from arguing how IQ test results mean blacks are genetically less intelligent than whites to peddle radical right exremist fearmongering bullshit about children being rushed into irreversible trans [scare quote]treatment[scare quote].
This month alone:
June 3 – US District Court blocks Tennessee drag ban as an unconstitutional violation of the 1st Amendment
June 6 – US District Court blocks Florida law banning gender-affirming care for minors
June 16 – US District Court strikes a Utah city’s refusal to grant drag show permit as an unconstitutional violation of the 1st and 14th Amendments
June 20 – US District Court blocks Arkansas ban on gender-affirming care for transgender minors as an unconstitutional violation of the due process and equal protection rights of trans minors and their guardians, and of the 1st Amendment rights of medical providers
June 21 – US District Court strikes Florida law banning Medicaid payments for trans healthcare
June 23 – US District Court blocks Florida drag ban as an unconstitutional violation of the 1st Amendment
These rulings join a surprisingly unanimous consensus by both Republican- and Democratic-appointed judges that have previously blocked similar laws banning trans healthcare in Alabama and Indiana.
Freedom, liberty, equality, science, and US Constitution is where your pushback is going to come from. As well as from the supermajority of youth voters who are quickly rising into the electorate and who despise today’s lying, hatemongering, homophobic, bigoted, science-denying, medically-illiterate “conservative” movement.
@DK: @DK: I don’t see anyone having a meltdown. The OP, at least, is perfectly understanding of why the initialism has expanded but argues that it’s now simply unworldly and 9 letters and symbols.
@James Joyner: [Removal of unhelpful sarcasm towards someone (not James), which makes me wish I believed in heaven so I could collect the points]
Good point James.
@Michael Reynolds:..Earth Day 1.0
I was allegedly in college for the first Earth Day. One of my roommates was an organizer so I was obliged to attend. All I really remember about it were the frisbees and lots of weed.
Just weeks later innocent citizens were murdered by the Ohio National Guard at Kent State and Nixon bombed Cambodia. This place came unglued. Demonstrations against the war and the draft erupted into riots and anarchy. One night the main business district was trashed and every storefront window was broken out as the Illinois State police tried to disperse demonstrators with teargas and billy clubs. Hundreds of National Guard with fixed bayonets patrolled the campus as the Illinois State Police tear gassed and billy clubbed anyone they saw. After days of continued turmoil 6000 people marched down the main drag to the University President’s house and demanded that the school shut down. After several hours the Chancellor of the Campus declared that the school was closed. The crowd went wild! The celebration that followed on the streets in town went on till dawn.
Best party I’ve ever attended!
Within a day everyone left and the town was empty.
The war lasted another five years.
@Andy: You’re full of crap I think. The pretense anyone here has experienced racism in this comment section when accurately described as an old white male is pathetic. The problem is many white men like to think of themselves as identity-free, because they are used to being treated like the default. And when reminded it ain’t necessarily so, some can’t handle it. Your discomfort with seeing the words “old” and “white” written down does not make you a target of ageism and racism.
And the pretense that MR, of all people, is above name-calling is laughable. I’ve been called all sorts of names by him and others in here. The difference is I don’t whine about it or even point it out, I just punch back — unlike those who start crying and playing victim when you get back what you dish out.
Y’all have no problem singling-out entire communities, whether that’s bashing “progressives,” or lecturing “queer/LGBTQ+++.” By your own standard, this should be homophobic. Otherized groups are always fair game to be lumped together, stereotyped, then pathologized and critiqued. But when the tables are turned, let’s cry racism and ageism. Chile please. I’ve seen you multiple times talk about how today’s youth are entitled. Why do you get to do “ageism,” but nobody else does? Spare me this phony hypocrisy.
If y’all can’t stand the heat, don’t start a fire. Suck it up buttercup.
@JKB:
There is a tiny percentage of the vanilla gay community that buys into TERF shit in hopes that it will give them greater acceptance. These are the Log Cabin Republican types who have always been hated by everyone including the right wingers they desperately seek approval of.
Real Ernst Röhm types.
Holding them up as an example of gay folks is like holding up Candace Owens or Clarance Thomas an an example of Black folks. Yes, you found the outlier.
Whenever I see all those clumps of letters I’m reminded of (IIRC) Enrico Fermi’s comment made after yet another subatomic particle had been discovered: “If I could remember all those names, I’d be a biologist.”
I work for the U.S. government, so the “diversity” stuff gets shoved at us thick and fast. Which is ironic, because I’ve noticed those of us who don’t fall into the male WASP bin aren’t very interested in participating in any of the events thankyouverymuch and could you just leave us alone and let us get back to working and attaining quota PLEASE.
And given the inevitable crappiness that will fall on all of us if Trump gets re-elected, it seems to me that’s a far more important issue for any group on the left to worry about, not what mixed jumble of letters is the “correct nomenclature”.
For a while I’ve preferred “queer folks” in most of my writing and comments, after deciding that “LGBTetc” was a bit too condescending, even for me. Plus, I’m not that big on labels for myself and generally use the umbrella term queer because I don’t think the distinctions matter — we would all get the same pink star in the concentration camps.
But, as our trans friends are under attack, I find myself using some variant of LGBTQIA+ more and more often to very specifically include them. It’s a big, ugly, stupid acronym, but it has the advantage that no one can claim that the trans folks aren’t part of the community.
I have similar feelings towards the Progress Flag that adds the arrow for brown, black and trans folks. It’s ugly. It’s shitty flag design. But at this point it’s basically a battle flag, explicitly including the folks under attack.
Good to see- The Gang’s is all Here (40s movie reference). Sometimes I wonder if JJ is just trolling (probably not but the number of letters in an acronym is not the biggest issue). Anyways, I recommend for everyone to read Andrew Sullivan’s column yesterday. Whether one agrees or disagrees, he has articulated what the issues are on TG (yes including the showering situation). Flame away.
Also, James, you may want to be cautious about moving towards “queer” in your usage. It’s a 90% reclaimed slur, and you’re going to run into people saying that cis het people aren’t allowed to use it blah blah blah*. Especially when there’s a wave of anti-queer legislation.
“Queer community” will get less pushback, but leads to the problem of what you call individuals in the queer community if “queer” is off the table.
We need a quick, easy word. We don’t have one without baggage and any new term is going to go down the “people of…” rabbit hole, so I think we’re a decade out on that.
——
*: I bounce back and forth between thinking the complainers are annoying, and thinking that they have a reasonable point. Probably both.
@DK: Yeah, but all you do is lash out. I get, that’s your thing. But you never have anything else to say. Just anger and insults.
@DK:
Pointed and stared at on the street? Check.
Had children cower behind their parents upon seeing me? Check.
Had parent ask if they could take a picture of their kids with me (to show off to all their friends)? Check.
Had people shout racial epithets at me on the street? Check.
Had people reach out and touch me as if they were imagining me? Check.
Had people frequently look into my shopping cart at the supermarket to see what the laowai eats? Check.
Had prices at shops multiplied by 10 when I ask pricing? Check.
Had taxis start to pull over, see my face, and drive off? Check.
But I’m guessing you don’t count any of that because “only white people can be racist”. Right?
Here is Andrew Sullivan on May 19 writing about the topic
@MarkedMan: One, that’s a lie.
Two, when I see you complain about MR having nothing to offer but anger, negativity, and crankiness, I’ll take seriously the reasoning behind the lie.
But I’m not going to be constrained or self-censored by the American adoration of having one standard for angry old white men and another standard for angry young black gay men. F*** that.
This is not my first rodeo. I know how y’all like to do. It’s “telling it like it is” when folks like Trump and MR do it, it’s problematic “lashing out” when we do it.
Miss me with your hypocrisy and selective standards. Uninterested.
Three, I don’t care what you or any other faceless internet stranger I don’t know and will never meet thinks about how I choose to express myself. I didn’t ask for your approval, nor do I crave your good opinion. ::shrug::
@Mu Yixiao:
My commentary specifically referenced what’s going on online this comment section, not what’s going on in streets and supermarkets. So I’m guessing you can’t read, right?
You can go on ahead and put the words you desperately and lamely attempted to put in my mouth (to falsely insinuate I made a point I didn’t make) back in your own mouth.
If you you’d like to discuss what I actually wrote rather than your non sequitur strawman argument, I might be willing to do that. But I’m not here for the BS today. Sorry!
1 + 1 = 2.
It does not matter in the least whether that statement is made by a White or Black or Asian person. Doesn’t matter if it’s said by a gay or straight person. Identity does not trump reality. Facts are facts, regardless of their source. 1 + 1 = 2 in every nation, every race, every religion and in every epoch.
It is a fact that LGBTQetc… messaging and tactics have been catastrophically bad. When you’re losing you can’t really make the case that you’re doing everything right. And the movement is losing. Like Yankees at the first Bull Run. Hopefully not like Hannibal at Cannae.
How to fix the problem and stop losing? Step One: admit the truth. There is no way to repair a muffler without admitting the muffler is broken.
Gustopher points to one of the habits of mind that handicaps progressives. Can James use ‘queer’ without being canceled? No one knows. How the hell does one plan a messaging campaign when the groups involved cannot agree on what to call themselves short of an endlessly-expanded string of letters no one can even remember?
DK’s insistence – shared widely in progressive circles – that no one who is not X has a right to an opinion about X is absurd on its face. The group whose opinions we are trying to change cannot offer suggestions on how to go about changing those opinions? WTF? First, we outlaw market research! This is not a serious approach. And this lack of seriousness signals weakness, insecurity and superficiality which discourages allies without apparently doing anything to stop the fratricide in progressive groups.
But then what right do I have to claim that 1 + 1 = 2? I mean, I have White skin and a penis.
@JKB: There’s dozens reasons why I guess that most of the gay community does not take folks like Andrew Sullivan seriously. Add to the list him being quoted approvingly by folks like JKB. Being agreed with by MAGA cultists is not a flex.
Instead, what the most gay community will continue to do is:
1) Encourage the court system to keep protecting the 1st and 14th Amendment rights of trans kids, their families, and their attendant medical professionals — a cohort which does not include medically-illiterate, bigoted Republican politicians who ban books, deny climate change, block gun control, cut food stamps, peddle sore loser election lies, and ban drag shows.
And 2) Tell meddling big goverment “conservatives” to butt out of how parents of trans kids — a cohort which does not include Andrew Sullivan — raise those kids and protect them from suicide.
@Michael Reynolds:
Contrary to this fake fact, it is an actual fact that the gay community is on a near-uninterrupted winning streak of court victories affirming their constitutional rights and batting down rightwing homophobic overreach — some of which I just detailed above. Per usual, the whole truth is more complex than cheap, lazy, black-and-white narrative of winning or losing.
But some stubborn, dishonest, arrogant old white men who think they know everything cannot admit when they’re wrong apparently don’t know the difference between winning and losing. We’ve seen it with Trump’s sore loser election lies, and now we’re seeing with you.
Except I never wrote these words and insisted nothing of the sort. But when you can’t refute the actual points being made, you have to lie and make things up.
Your insistence on lying signals weakness, lack of intelligence, and moral turpitude. And you lecture about unseriousness? Holy lack of self-awareness Batman.
When you’re not a member of a community and you want to comment on that community without being called out, you should inform yourself before speaking out and revealing you don’t know what you’re talking about. The problem minorities have is when people who belong to demographics that swear they know it all run their mouths and say things about us that are not true. Like for example, not knowing about the current string of pro-gay court victories and then and making dumb, childish, simplistic pronouncements about losing.
That’s where the pushback comes from. It’s not the mere fact of commenting. It’s failing to educate yourself about who you’re commenting on before you open your mouth, because as an old white guy you already think you know it all and assume you don’t have to.
Meh. Told my daughter a while back that I am stopping at LGBTQ. It’s too unwieldy and I am not that interested in learning all of the special terms. We will love her and support her in her choices. She said she was OK with that and mostly agreed with us.
Steve
@Mu Yixiao:..Southern Illinois parenting in the good old days.
Back in the early 70’s a married couple that I knew relocated from their hometown of Chicago to Hurst, Illinois. 1970 population 933. They said they wanted a change of pace. She got work cleaning houses and he gave guitar lessons.
One day there was a knock on the front door. New guitar student?
When he opened the door there was a local woman standing there with two young kids.
“Children,” she said, “This is what Jews look like.”
@DK:
Okay….
The wording wasn’t necessarily that specific, but I’ll give you that I misinterpreted what you wrote.
If that was how you meant it to be read, then… I have no clue what you’re going on about. Or why you’re going on about it. Why you would focus on “old white men” being subjected to racism in the comment section of one blog is… oddly specific.
And you seem inordinately angry and belligerent about such an oddly specific point.
I’m not going to argue with you. It’s pointless.
I will say that, twice, I found myself in a place where I was acting out in the same way that you (to me) seem to be. Both times I was in a bad place in my life.
The first time, the solution was to stop drinking. I was sober for 5 years (to the hour)*. I was able to do it on my own, without any groups, but I would definitely support anyone who feels that a group will help them get to where they need to be.
The second time was my first year in China. I was making $10k/year, I was cut off from all my family and friends (and I’m a hermit!), I was in a culture I didn’t understand, and… I had Facebook (via VPN; it’s banned in China). I took out all my frustration, my anger, my feelings of powerlessness, on my friends–and not a few random strangers. I “blacklisted” friends that I’d known for up to a quarter of a century–a couple of whom had been the closest of friends that I could have.
I’m not going to engage in any further “debate”** with you.
I am, however, going to–politely–suggest that you reach out to a professional who might be able to help you address the issues you’re facing, and give you guidance on how to navigate the path to feeling better.
Better Help
Unless you’re just a troll–in which case… I’ll still recommend all of the above, but just ignore you.
===
* I’ve written about my epiphany here. Y’all can search for it if you’d like. (I’d suggest searching for “epiphany”. I doubt that word is used here much.
** It’s not a debate. It’s you tossing out insults and replying to replies with more insults.
@Mu Yixiao: Lol wut? Imagine falsely insinuating that I’m an alcoholic — an oddly specific assumption — because you don’t like me boldly and blunty stating my opinions without genuflecting, and then unironically lecturing me about insults lolololol.
I’m not even going to dignify this kind of bizarre nonsense — except to say that I also have no idea what you’re banging on about. Thank you for admitting you misrepresented what I wrote, my friends (and family) are fine, and I’d encourage you to take your own advice about seeking professional help. Good grief.
@DK:Me: Yeah, but all you do is lash out
I mean, come on, you have to see that’s a little on the nose?
Look, I don’t get mad very often because of some exchange I have on the internet. I’ve been at this long enough to know that trying to get your real intent through in written comments is very difficult, and then trying to get your tone across is even harder. When I made the comment about lashing out it wasn’t because you got my goat or because I think you are a terrible person. You may be, or you might be a wonderful person that uses the internet to vent your frustrations. I come here primarily to shoot the shit and sometimes to engage in debate. Heck, after all these years it’s also about just checking on people that have become a part of my day. I don’t pretend to know why you come here, but I do know we are at cross purposes. But you don’t owe me anything and I don’t owe you anything, so it turns out that’s perfectly OK.
@DK: FWIW, I agree with you that Michael’s belief that trans folk are on an epic losing streak is viewing things from the worst possible lens. (I don’t think he comments much on how the gay community is doing, I think that given his situation his focus is on trans.)
@MarkedMan:
Ah. So “lashing out” and “venting frustrations” in your parlance is being succinct and direct. Okay, lol, we all have opinions.
Yeah, when people say things that they must know are not true, I respond, “That’s a lie.” Seems simple enough, even boring. I’d wonder what you call it when people actually lash out lol
@MarkedMan:
Since he’s repeatedly saying something that isn’t accurate, I get the need to whitewash or try to explain what he actually means (similarly, we’ve seen Trump’s friends do this on his behalf). But “It is a fact that LGBTQetc… messaging and tactics have been catastrophically bad” is not trans-specific, not that this statement would be fully true if it were. And the same oversimplistic falsehood has been repeatedly propagated about Democrats/liberals more broadly.
If bluntly stating “That’s a lie, and the bevy of stubborn old white men here need to stop lying about the gay community” is lashing out, an insult, a sign of insecurity, belligerent, unseriousnes, trolling, projection, racism, ageism, a sign of alcoholism, etc etc (notice there’s no insults or name-calling here, of course, from those so apoplectic about name-calling and insults) then okay. Whatever they need to tell themselves to focus on attacking the messenger.
But, no, I’m not going to stop calling lies what they are. People should stop saying things that aren’t true about communities whose current events they aren’t fully paying attention to.
@DK:
Okay. That actually made me laugh.
I’m an arrogant asshole. I’m blunt in a local culture that is blunt. I go head-to-head with Michael Reynolds–because we’re both making blunt points that we believe should be heard.
You’re just insulting people and insisting it’s “being honest”.
And… no. I didn’t say you had a problem with alcohol. I said I used to. I also said that I had a problem with social isolation when tossed into China.
I don’t know what your issue is… but you’ve got one.
I know from blunt. I know from brutally blunt. Been doing that for the better part of a quarter century. You kicked in the NOx and left that a half mile in the rear view mirror, and are going pedal to the medal into Troll Town.
You think you’re okay? Okay. But it seems that most of the people you interact with here disagree. [shrug].
And I’m sure you’ll validate my point by lashing out at me once again.
So… again.
There was a thread a couple weeks ago where DK made about a comment about having actually experienced racism in America. The response was not exactly generous or understanding or even non-horrible. It was more along the lines of: America is the least racist country on earth and DK needs to get out some more, and really the real issue is being called a racist. You can’t act like that and expect it not to stick on you as who you are.
@DK:
.
The point is that you are attacking people using racist, ageist, and sexist language. The fact that you use this often when you “disagree” with me is not bothersome to me at all – merely annoying – as is speaks to your character and behavior and not mine.
You’ll note that I don’t respond to you (or others here) with that kind of invective, nor do I dismiss what you have to say with a handwave about your skin color, age, gender, or sexual preference.
Again, it’s not discomfort – it’s more amusement and annoyance that your method of “debate” very often involves just insulting people.
The irony here is that MR has called me (and others) basically the same thing, though I think his phrasing was something like “white men of a certain age.” In fact, Michael and I have been debating here for probably about 15 years, and over that amount of time, he has said some very nasty things to and about me, much worse than the fairly pedestrian “old white man.” And yet somehow I’m still able to have a conversation with him, agree or disagree with him and even defend him on occasion. The idea that I’m suggesting that MR is above name-calling is laughable, so it’s curious how and why you came to the conclusion that was my argument.
Well, that certainly does tell us a lot about you. How did MR, in this thread, “punch” you specifically that required you to “punch back?” MR made a general point- one he’s made many times before, and it’s you that punched first.
I’m not whining about it, but just pointing out your bad behavior here, your general unwillingness to engage in actual debate instead of name-calling, etc. At most it’s tiresome, but – and you can as the regulars here – I have a long record of calling out this kind of bullying behavior here.
Who is “y’all” exactly? “Progressive” is not a community that can be singled out, it’s an ideology. Where have I “lectured” queer/LGBTQ+++ people about anything?
So because some people (certainly not me) otherize groups, that gives you the moral authority to turn the tables and attack people on the basis of their race, age and gender?
I have said on occasion that some youth are entitled and IIRC I’ve done so with a lot of qualifications. A better example are probably my comments about the Boomers, especially those that watch cable TV. I’m willing to admit, however, that this is a bias I have and one that is very likely unfair.
But, unlike you, I have not used that to attack others here, I’ve never suggested that your views, whatever they are, are the result of your skin color, youth, gender, etc. Meanwhile, the reverse is your MO. You talk about “punching back” but you are usually the one throwing down first. The hypocrisy here is with you.
@DK:
Does this apply to your certainty that you understand the real motivations of old white men?
Anyway, the reason I’m pointing all this out is that a comment section that consists of people “punching,” calling each other liars, impugning motives, and utilizing childish name-calling is not something I’m interested in. The internet is full of that kind of “debate.” OTB has long been a place where that kind of behavior is rarer than the median, and it’s the reason a lot of us have been here for so long. So this isn’t a question of anyone having to “suck it up buttercup” to accommodate your pugilistic desires, but of trying to ask for a little more restraint and maybe trying a bit harder to treat others as you’d like to be treated.
@Modulo Myself:
Except I never denied the legitimacy of DK’s personal experience, nor did I insult him, nor did I claim that racism wasn’t a major problem in America. Moreover, I was and remain perfectly fine with people disagreeing with my opinion that, on average, America is one of the least racist countries on the planet. I made my case, I presented my evidence, and I am fine if people disagree.
@Mu Yixiao:
Oh no, how will I ever pick up the pieces of my life and go on. /end sarc
No, I don’t “think” I’m okay: I know I’m okay. ‘Blessed and highly favored’ as the old church folks back home used to say.
And I know some people here are hypocrites who love to fling insults while attacking others for insults, love to think that they know everything about everything including about internet strangers they’ve never met, and love to think the world revolves around them and their comments on this blog they take much too seriously, but my world does not revolve around your opinion, boo. I don’t care what you think of me.
And I know you’ll continue to validate my point about what a hypocritical phony you are, by continuing to complain about insults while you insult me with your nasty, vicious, stupid, half-baked mental health assessments that merely show your lack of expertise in the field.
So as an owner of a masters in clinical psychology: seek the professional help you suggest to others. Real intervention, not lame links to lame websites you found on Google, that no serious clinician with actual experience in treating mental illness would ever suggest. Better Help? Gurl, bye.
@JKB: Should I be assuming that Sullivan has become the house queer for the conservative movement?
@Modulo Myself:
The response, from the usual suspects, was flat out gross. My response was not to whine and cry about insults and name-calling, I merely continued to assert my blunt opinion without apology and without playing the victim. And I intend to keep doing so.
I’ve been shaking my head at people like this my whole life, and I’m still going from strength to strength. I will not be bullied into silence or self-censorship by hypocrites who can’t handle the truth and who think only their opinions and insults are valid (when they’re not lying about flinging insults in the first place, or counching their insults in thin gentility). They can say “Amen” or say “Ouch.” Whatever.
@JKB:
Free Child Cancer! Leave their broken bones alone!
It’s a medical decision that should be treated like any other medical decision that affects kids. Educated guesswork (like all medical decisions) based on the best information available, made between the parent and the kid*, taking medical guidelines as a strong guardrail.
And, that means grudgingly accepting the decisions of other families, even if they aren’t what you think you would do in their situation. Just as you have to grudgingly accept the choices of adults.
What’s next, banning birth control for kids because you don’t like it? Or mandating abortion for pregnant teens because I don’t think a teenager can be an effective parent?
I don’t think kids should go to church until they are old enough and well educated enough to make their own choices on the matter. Let’s legislate that.
What Sullivan is missing is that the current wave of right-wing backlash started with attacks on garden variety homosexuals like himself — Florida’s “Don’t Say Gay” bill, “groomers” and the like — and then shifted to anti-trans because the plain anti-gay wasn’t gaining enough traction.
The right wing will get back to trying to legislate anti-gay bigotry. Anti-trans bigotry legislation is just the easiest step.
—
*: obviously, the input the kid has is likely different at different ages.
@DK: My thought was “lemme guess, you were in China at the time, n’est pas?” but am not interested in taking up the hoo been mo disst cudgel today.
@Michael Reynolds:
Have they? Garden variety homosexuals have gained rights faster than any group in America. Fast enough to generate a backlash, sure, and that backlash is targeting the most vulnerable populations because that’s what backlashes tend to do (and the “even boring gays are groomers” doesn’t resonate)
We’ve pretty much won the argument of “people should be free to love who they want” argument. That’s massive.
It’s the “people should be free to be visibly queer” argument that is struggling at the moment. And it’s happening at the same time as “we should learn a little bit about history from the perspective of Black folks” is also struggling.
Its the same argument. It’s plain white folks attacking everything that isn’t them. It isn’t about the minority messaging being bad so much as white grievance messaging having gotten better.
We’ve gone anti-CRT, “Don’t Say Gay”, “trans people are monsters” in breakneck speed as they settle on which plain white grievance resonates most.
@Raoul: Hey there buddy you doing okay? Haven’t seen you since the last post by James involving LGBT people. We’re still waiting on your citations for the claims you made. Interesting how you just vanished from that thread only to re-appear in the next post by James involving LGBT.
Andrew was only a friend to gay marriage because it affected him personally. Like a good Republican once Andrew got what he wanted he said fck the rest of y’all and abandoned them immediately. I would like to think that people on the gay marriage side saw Andrew as the fair weather “friend” he is and expected this. I also didn’t want Andrew involved because he’s had a lot of questionable posts and obsessions over the years…
@Michael Reynolds:
As much as we love Dr. Joyner, we also know that he wanders through these delicate minefields with the grace of drunken water buffalo. I was trying to be a little delicate.
He should not use “queer,” it will just cause him more problems than it’s worth.
It’s not as bad as the n-word, but everyone recognizes the n-word trap. Black folks can use it, but us white people should default to not, even if you think you’ve found the one reasonable workaround that will let you get away with it.
“Queer” is similar, but also pops up in spots like “queer studies” etc where it’s fine (there is no equivalent “n-word studies”). The set of cases where it is and isn’t going to be fine is complicated.
A well-meaning drunken water buffalo in a mine field should just not when there’s any other choice. And definitely not as a noun.
@DK:
I was going to write a long response, but here’s the thing: you insist on treating as an enemy a man who has always supported LGBT rights. I’ve demonstrated, I’ve contributed money, I’ve used my Twitter to defend trans rights and attack Rowling for her positions. I have a trans daughter. But I’m your enemy because you are not playing the game of politics, you’re still looking for a daddy to yell at. Well, I’m not your daddy, and I am certainly direct and occasionally cutting, but if I’m the enemy then trans rights are fucked, because about 90% of the voters in this country are to my right on trans issues. If anyone who criticizes tactics and strategy in pursuit of a common goal is the enemy, then, frankly (and cuttingly) you’re a child and not a serious person. At least not serious when it comes to politics.
@Matt: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12000615/Wisconsin-high-school-fire-trans-woman-18-exposed-genitalia-freshmen-girls-shower.html
@Michael Reynolds: “Enemy” is your chosen descriptor, good Mr. Reynolds, not mine. Thank you for your work on behalf of the gay/queer community.
Please stop ignoring basic, factual examples of the community’s ongoig wins — legally and otherwise — to propogate a false, oversimplistic, negativistic, demoralizing, and destructive narrative that says the LGBT community is catastrophically losing. That is not the truth.
Stubbornly repeating something that is not true when you’ve repeatedly been given factual evidence to the contrary is called lying. This is not complicated.
@Michael Reynolds: a victimhood fetish and a deep need to be seen as absolutely right are not always a good combination. You started on this thread desperate for someone to argue with you, and DK took the bait, and if that’s all fun and games for each of you, go for it. I’m not here to kink shame.*
But, Mr. Words-Are-My-Bread-And-Butter, if you think the messaging is so awful, what would be better?
Also, if there were an Mighty Morphing Middle Managers** reunion book that weaseled that better messaging in, it would have a better chance of percolating into the collective vernacular than people arguing on OTB.
——
*: Even if being kink shamed is your kink, I’m not here for it.
**: That’s just a bit of anti-SEO. I have no idea if people are searching for any mention of your nom de non plume and the actual series, and whether you would care.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
I chortled. A literal LOL.
@Gustopher: To be clear, I’m not proposing that I’m going to start using “queer” as a substitute. I’m suggesting that the ever-expanding acronym isn’t working and that, logically, “queer” actually works as an umbrella term. I’m happy, within reason, to accept whatever simpler
Term the community comes up with. But a nine-and-growin-syllable mnemonic device isn’t working.
@Andy:
But you aren’t fine when people disagree, otherwise you wouldn’t be on here talking about how Michael is a heretic (a real word with actual meanings none of which apply in this case), or how being called a racist is this terrible, terrible thing. And your evidence was more like a bad alibi for a crime, and it was completely insulting to anybody with a brain. You act as if having one’s intelligence insulted is not a thing if you are the one doing it.
I don’t know whether the acronym is too cumbersome or not. Then again, this isn’t my war and I’m not interested in dying on this hill except to the extent of trying to remind all y’all that sometimes your positions are aiding and abetting the “push the Xs under the bus, they’re a small minority anyway” camp.
But go ahead and keep talking tactics if you want. There certainly HAS to be an “ultimate gotcha” that will just explode everybody’s heads and create the “permanent leftist majority” that Superdestroyer was worried about. It’s your destiny, after all.
@DK:
I was upset about how bad that exchange was, to be honest. It was horrible, and you handled it well.
@Michael Reynolds:
If anyone who criticizes tactics and strategy in pursuit of a common goal is the enemy, then, frankly (and cuttingly) you’re a child and not a serious person.
Thanks for annotating the cutting nature of your completely generic insult. It would have gone over our heads, otherwise.
@Michael Reynolds: I’m not sure anybody is saying that you’re an enemy as much as if you’re the friend…
@Gustopher:
You think only White people are anti-trans? The danger ahead is not White people, it’s that anti-trans and anti-gay may become a unified, cross-racial position. Hispanics? Blacks? You think they’re allies? The pro-trans movement consists of trans people, some gay people, and White liberals. And that opinion is not at all solidified. This is an issue we may yet lose, and will lose if we keep being stupid. Danger, Will Robinson.
But hey, apparently there’s no reason for concern. After all: gay marriage. So, that’s a relief. A dozen states have passed anti-trans laws but la di da. It’s not like repealing laws is hard or anything. After all, the Supreme Court. . . oops.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
A friend is someone who warns you when you’re driving off a cliff, not someone who tells you you’re a great driver. An ally who won’t tell you when you’re wrong is not an ally.
Women, gays, trans, all have lost ground. A lot of ground. And very damn quickly. But we’re doing everything right and all criticism is treason.
@Michael Reynolds:
“There’s no reason for concern” “We’re doing everything right” = Dishonest strawman arguments that nobody but you made. Again, when you have to repeatedly lie and make things up rather than argue against the point actually being made, it’s a sign that your argument is weak, that you’re not nearly as smart as you think you are, and that you have problems with basic decency and morality.
“Treason” “enemy” = Self-pitying, melodranatic weasel words nobody used but you, so that you can portray yourself as a victim. An ally that is dedicated to dishiesty because his main concern is not helping others but portraying himself as a martyr is not an ally.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
Nobody called him “an enemy.” He made that up. Predictably untruthful, childish, and unserious.
@James Joyner:
Then just keep using LGBT like most people rather than acting like one statement from Starbucks workers is signals a crisis. Honestly, it’s not that difficult.
Some blacks use black, some African-American, some people of color etc. The sky hasn’t fallen because of it. Since when has the English language been expected to have one word for things? Some use “gay community,” some use queer, LGBT, LGBT+++. Big whoop.
@Matt: “I also didn’t want Andrew involved because he’s had a lot of questionable posts and obsessions over the years…”
You mean like calling everyone who opposed W’s Iraq War a member of a fifth column trying to destroy America from within? That was the last time I bothered with anything Sullivan said, and I’ve never understood why anyone who doesn’t subscribe to The National Review would, either.
@Michael Reynolds:
I think they have very little power, and those that do have political power are either the three token Black conservatives, or aligned with the Progressives on enough issues that they aren’t going to split on something they don’t care about.
And the campaign of boring-white resentment is being created by white men. The same white men. specifically a small, nameable number of white men who are focus grouping resentments to see what plays.
Gallup says that support for marriage equality is at 71%. The Supreme Court can fuck with the legal issues and make things harder, but they can’t change the culture.
The reason there was a shift from “gays are groomers” to “trans people are mutilating our precious children” is that there is enough support for garden variety homosexuals that it just came off as bigotry.
@wr: Let’s not forget how Sullivan insisted for years Sarah Palin had faked her pregnancy and that Trig Palin wasn’t her child, an elaborate coverup involving McCain staffers — which is barely a step up from the ramblings of homeless schizophrenics.
I disagree often with the National Review, but I do read it. Its columnist are frequently wrong in my view, but they are at least serious and sober. Sullivan, on the other hand, would be considered a lunatic if he weren’t erudite.