Monday’s Forum
Steven L. Taylor
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Monday, June 27, 2022
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98 comments
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor of Political Science and a College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored
A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog).
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Shirt! You’re early folks, I haven’t had my first cup of coffee yet. Pull up a chair and let’s see what the $##@€¥ are up to this week.
Shipwreck of US destroyer ‘Sammy B’ becomes deepest ever discovered
I can hardly believe they found the Sammy B (actually a destroyer escort, so an even smaller ship). I had missed their finding the Johnston which went down in the same battle. Their story is best told in the book “Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors,” which is a great read.
“This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can.”
-Lieutenant Commander Robert W. Copeland
Gold miner in Canada finds mummified 35,000-year-old woolly mammoth
Chaplains are obligated to serve all members of the Armed Forces no matter what their faith and beliefs are. This is another example of the extreme radical Christian nationalism infiltrating our military.
Army chaplain applauds Roe v. Wade decision ending ‘murder of millions’ in mass email to soldiers
For a change, let’s begin the day with hopeful news:
Flu Vaccines Associated With Reduced Alzheimer’s Risk
Given flu also is known to kill the elderly more than other people, the next flu shot campaign could include a line like ” Get vaccinated wo you don’t wind up like Donald Trump.”
Of course, that would be malicious in the extreme.
Among a bunch of legislation that DeSantis signed into law recently was a “grandparents’ rights” bill making it easier for them to forcing visitation rights. Note – not custody rights but visitation so they are essentially whining they don’t get to see the kids when they want. Besides the fact that there is no such animal legally or socially (ESPECIALLY in the conservative world where the parents’ word is law), it’s interesting to contemplate just why you can’t see your grandkids at all. I mean, if you need to push for a law to make it easier to force your kids to let you see their kids, you likely aren’t on good terms with them are you?
I’m willing to bet some serious cash a lot of the complaining grandparents were toxic or terrible parents and their now-adult kids want nothing to do with them. Wanna bet they were also the kind that thought they knew best and nobody, not doctors teachers or government, could possible know better? Now that the power is out of their hands, they’re pissed they can’t impose their will on the next generation. Nursing homes are full of parents complaining their ungrateful brats never come or call without stopping to think that’s probably for a good reason. Now DeSantis has given them a tool to attack their own children and force an interaction against the guardians’ will – something that would have conservatives shrieking about big government if FL wasn’t God’s Waiting Room.
I never thought I’d get to live in a dark age. Now I’m sure I will.
Come, we all know what needs to be done, and that it won’t be.
The Democrats should get rid of the Senate filibuster, and pass new civil rights and voting rights legislation, to secure rights for abortion, sexual diversity, gender identity, etc., to correct defects of the 1960s civil rights and voting rights acts, and to make voter suppression extinct or at the least very difficult. Then they should expand the judiciary, including packing the SCOTUS.
And we know none of that will happen.
Next best thing is to try to reduce enthusiasm on the right by pointing out they’ve essentially won and can go home to enjoy their victory, while promoting voter turnout for Democrats. If they can keep the House and Senate, there is some slim hope of doing something past November 22.
And that won’t happen either.
I’ve gotten to one of the rare points in time when I don’t want to know what happens next.
@Scott: When I saw his last name, I wondered if he was related to Billy James Hargis–a conservative Christian televangelist of the 50s and 60s, but Wikipedia noted that both of his male sons died either in childbirth or infancy.
(Yeah. One thing I do know is who my forebearers in Christian extremism are. We watched and listened to all of them. My mom still did til her dying days.)
@KM:
Since FL is often described as Heaven’s waiting room, this is a simple scam for votes. Hard to see how it is enforced and whether it could withstand a court challenge.
@Kathy:
We go into some of the states that are just R+2 or 3 or 5 and flip them. Flip Texas and the Right takes a massive hit and the GOP never elects another president. We need to start changing hearts and minds, and we have an opportunity to do that with abortion and guns and other imperiled rights.
Seriously, I really wish Democrats would pull their heads out of social sciences long enough to learn some history. Ebb and flow. Move and countermove. How the hell are we so defeatist when the people are on our side and we own the broader culture?
Oh noes, the Japanese sank our battleships, what are we gonna do? OMG did you see Bull Run, we’re done for! The British have burned Washington, let’s surrender!
We need to focus. We need to stop making asses of ourselves renaming schools and canceling comedians and become what we used to be: the people’s party, the welcoming party, the fun party. We need to use this opportunity to reach out to suburbanites in Houston and Dallas, in Atlanta and Orlando and Raleigh-Durham. We need to build a new underground railroad for women who need abortions. We should look at using federal land to provide health care for women in chattel states.
It’s not like we’ve decided to declare our independence from a superpower despite having neither and army or a navy. It’s not like we’re setting out in covered wagons across a thousand miles of brutal terrain and weather and very unhappy locals. What are we, French?
Just want to point out that ugly divorces happen and that in addition to the children, grandparents get caught in the crossfire.
For certain sure, it happens, and probably not as often as it should. My sons have been very forgiving of their mother’s sins, up to and including Munchhausen by proxy.
@KM:
I hear what you’re saying. And I agree that this is a likely dynamic.
I also think the reverse is likely. That is, if many past generation parents were/are awful, then it holds that many current generation parents were/are awful. And so it goes.
I have empathy for children of awful parents. And I also have empathy for parents of awful children.
I don’t know the details of the bill you reference. It may be terrible. That aside, what (legal) recourse, if any, should grandparents have in this context? To me, that is the difficult question.
Right now there is none. It’s been litigated and denied. As far as Florida law goes, I am as ignorant as you.
@Mimai: In most states, “grandparents’ rights” don’t even start to be a topic of discussion until a) one of the parents is dead or otherwise unavailable b) the grandparents have already been taking care of the grandchild. Both conditions need to be satisfied. It’s to keep a relationship intact, not to create a new one. If both parents are alive, taking care of the kiddo, and neither of the grandparents have ever met the child, there’s no relationship and nothing to argue for.
“Grandparents’ rights” is the unicorn of family law.
I feel I’m reduced these days to escapist entertainment. So I watched the latest Doctor Strange (for some reason, it’s not Dr. Strange) movie on Disney+. It was a good choice, as nothing that happens in it has any connection with reality whatsoever.
It wasn’t bad at all, but seeing as it is a multiverse romp, I have to give it a barely passing grade. the fun in parallel universes is to show different versions of known characters, and/or different versions of society.
On the first, this movie has an extended sequence showing some different versions of MCU characters (no clue whether they appear in the comics or not; I don’t read comics). I’ll just mention one, because she was in a streaming animated Marvel show called “What If”: Captain Carter, the First Avenger.
On the latter, not so much. I mean, sure, the red light means go, but very little else is different, or we don’t get to see it. here I may have been spoiled by “Sliders.” IMO quest shows are never much good, as they often turn away from an interesting plot in order to continue the quest (see others like Time Tunnel, Voyager, etc.) And so was Sliders. But they showed some rather interesting takes on alternate versions of late 20th century societies: Communist America, Royal America, Mexican California, and more.
As to characters, I was hoping/expecting something more along the lines of Into the Spider-verse. And not necessarily with a bunch of different Doctors Strange. I don’t want to spoil the plot, so I can’t go into detail, but I kept expecting alternate versions of another character to step in and play a major part. This never happened.
So, an ok movie I may never see again.
SCOTUS just gutted the separation of church and state. Formally overruled the Lemon test and endorsement test.
Expand the High Court. It’s the only way America survives.
We’ve allowed the Democratic Party to be defined by the San Francisco city council, Brown University faculty and whatever Hollywood airhead has the most Instagram followers. We have stopped being the easy-going, everyone-in-the-pool party and become the party where no one can speak for fear of some assistant professor of fuckwaddery lecturing us on our many sins. People don’t want to join a party where they have to walk on eggs. White people don’t want to join a party where their race is seen as a pre-emptive indictment. Men don’t want to join a party where they’re seen as suspects. In short, by virtue of our humorlessness and condescension and stifling puritanism and hair-shirt wearing we’ve become deeply unattractive and thus unable to reach out beyond our little silo. Not that we even try.
Being tendentious, scolding, joyless assholes is – surprise! – not a great way to attract support. And it matters because of times like right now when we need to look like the party of freedom and the future.
@Kathy: I was really impressed by Xochitl Gomez as America Chavez. Hard to believe she’s only 16.
The movie itself was fun, good escapist entertainment as you said.
@Mikey:
As I’ve mentioned before, I wasn’t raised in any religion, but isn’t there something a bit tacky about praying aloud on the fifty-yard line?
@Mikey:
Oh, yeah, she was really good.
@Kathy: “And so was Sliders. But they showed some rather interesting takes on alternate versions of late 20th century societies: Communist America, Royal America,”
Hey, I wrote that Royal America episode of Sliders!
@CSK: I’m pretty sure Christ had something to say about the Pharisees who prayed loudly in public. He wasn’t in favor.
Ugh, today’s SCOTUS ruling on school/coach prayer…we are approaching if not already in a Gilead/theocracy.
I’m quite sure that they aren’t going to be as willing to hear a coach lead a prayer to Allah, I mean these are the same people protesting yoga in schools.
Democrats had best get their effin’ act together and vote for any Dem on the ballot. Turn out. Vote. No purity tests, literally the only consideration should be if there’s a D by the name.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/more-than-1-million-voters-switch-to-gop-in-warning-for-dems/ar-AAYTKxY?
@Michael Reynolds:
Pearl Harbor is a bad example.
That was as much as the Japanese navy could manage to do. In contrast, shortly after the US Navy launched the Doolittle raid. It wasn’t much, but it dropped bombs on Tokyo. And that was not as far as the US Navy could manage, rather they were just getting started.
So, is overturning Roe as far as the illegitimate Court can go, or are they just getting warmed up?
@wr:
Good work.
At that, the casual reference can mean two eps. One where the US is independent but a monarchy, and one where it still is a British colony. Both were good.
@Jen: Every single person I know in my local area who is/was registered as a Dem, or supports Dem policies, has registered as a Republican or plans to before the midterms, just to try and keep the crazies at bay. Plus there are very few Dems to vote for here. Some races go uncontested. I suspect that may be partially what’s in play with the party switching.
@Kathy:
The point is not ‘what can they do?’ the point is, can we fight? Or are we going to curl up in a ball and whine?
You want rights? Fight for them.
@Kathy:
I thought it might be because he was “Doctor Strange” on the comic book covers, but it turns out that the comics were not consistent on that point.
@Jen:
Perhaps they’ll be replacing pep rallies with prayer rallies.
Progressive Democrat canvasses a suburban dad.
PD: Hi, I’m here to talk to you about Candidate X.
SD: Oh, I like him becau–
PD: Them. You like them. Candidate X uses gender non-specific pronouns.
SD: Um, OK. Well, as a man–
PD: You mean as a cis male.
SD: Did you just call me a sissy?
PD: I was just correcting you.
SD: Uh huh, well I guess my biggest concern is my kid’s school, Thomas Jefferson High. The thing is–
PD: I get it. You’re upset that your kids’ school is named after a slave owner.
SD: I don’t really care about that, it was more that–
PD: You don’t care because of White privilege.
SD: Oookay, gonna close the door now.
PD: Micro-aggression! Micro-aggression!
@CSK: I WAS raised in a religion (and a very separatist one at that!) and even I think that praying on the 50-yard line is strange. (But was okay when we did it for church league/YMCA events. It seems more appropriate there because of the–supposed anyway–common bond of faith.)
@Michael Reynolds: Is that scene what YOU do when you go canvas? Is it something that YOU’VE SEEN often happening in real life? Or is it just something you pulled out of your
assfertile writer’s brain?@Michael Reynolds: This is EXACTLY how the feminist movement finally went off-line: a handful of women in black turtlenecks and jeans sitting around a table in NYC arguing about who was purer than whom.
I suspect we’ll have to go through another swing further to the right before everyone discovers that Puritans on the right are just as obnoxious as Puritans on the left and stampedes away from the god-botherers with equal amounts of pissitude.
Remember what happened after Cromwell died in England….
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
Well, it’s one thing if it’s a religious group. But this guy was a coach in a public school. He’s imposing his beliefs on others.
@OzarkHillbilly: Allow me to second your recommendation of reading about the Battle off Samar. I haven’t read Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors, which I should, I hear is very good. I’d add a recommendation of the third volume of Ian Toll’s Pacific War trilogy Twilight of the Gods, which covers a deal more ground, the last year of the war in the entire Pacific. And well told.
Those unfamiliar with the history may remember that in The Hunt for Red October the Alec Baldwin character mentions he wrote a book about Admiral Halsey and the Sean Connery character replies the book is wrong, that Halsey acted stupidly. The result of Halsey’s stupid decision was that a group of small ships found itself confronted with a battle group of the most powerful ships in the Japanese fleet, including the super battleship Yamato. The ensuing fight is an incredible story of American bravery and devotion to duty. Plus a fair amount of confusion to the enemy. An unbelievable story if it weren’t well documented. This is why I read little fiction. (Sorry Michael.) There are better stories in history, with the fillip that they aren’t just made up.
@OzarkHillbilly:
So do half-siblings, aunt, uncles, cousins and step-everything but nobody is pushing for them to have legal access. It is an extension of the parent-as-owner concept that you have some god-given right to visit with the youngest generation even though you have no formal legal relationship that grants it. If the argument is blood ties or familial affection, it would “extended family rights” not “grandparents rights”. It’s not a coincidence it’s the parents of the parents trying to essentially invoke a modern paterfamilias and argue that they have rights in perpetuity over what their creations have created.
@Mimai:
Again, why exactly should they have recourse when no other family member does? If a toxic parents keeps a beloved child away from you but you’re only the cousin, why should the grandparent get to see them and not you in this context?
My point is the people pushing this are not asking for access for the whole family who’s lost something like the grandparent has. They’re pushing a specific sentiment and want it enshrined in law. I would understand if it was “don’t cut kids off from their family as they have rights too”; it’s “how dare you keep MY grandkids from me!!!” energy.
@CSK:
Pubic prayer and corner proselytizing have always been uncomfortable for me. (Although I spent a lot of time growing up in an area where blue laws were religiously enforced.)
Public prayer for what, coach? Victory? No injuries? A drink before dinner? Inquiring minds want to know.
My darling daughter once started chanting, “double, double, boil and bubble, fire burn and cauldron bubble” in her kindergarten class. To her teacher’s dismay, we encouraged her.
I think particularly in school football games, whenever there’s a show of prayer, it should be mandatory to read Twain’s The War Prayer aloud as well.
@Michael Reynolds:
Indeed! Let us cleave to the impressionistic.
@Steven L. Taylor: Not to mention that the idea that our politics are rife with the social sciences is another laugh line in and of itself.
@Mimai:
My mom considers my partner and I to be very toxic, ungrateful people. I’m sure she tells everyone that will listen that we are keeping HER grandkids away from her. My mom is an abusive, narcissist nightmare. If she were to get access to my kids, she would use it as a weapon against my partner and I. Also, to be clear, my dad is just as abusive, but he is only interested in trading off my identity to get credit cards.
Another issue is, “Grandparent access” is frequently weaponized against LGBT people when one of the partners dies and the grandparents want to take the kids away from the survivor because “they don’t agree with their lifestyle.” My MIL has not accepted me post transition. She plays nice for the sake of my partner and so that she can see the kids. I could see her trying something if my partner died. It’s a huge fear of mine.
@Flat Earth Luddite:
Any five-year-old who can quote Macbeth is tops in my book.
@grumpy realist: Thanks for that. And especially the bit about the unicorn….didn’t see that coming at all.
@KM: I agree with your point about where to draw the line (aunts vs. cousins vs. “cousins” etc). I don’t have grandkids but many commenters do, so I was wondering if that first-hand experience changed the (moral if not legal) calculus for folks.
@Beth: You don’t need my solidarity and support, but it’s coming your way nonetheless.
@Michael Reynolds: Dude, if you’re going to make up crazy ass shit, make up better crazy ass shit. Take some pride in your work.
It reads like the humor in the Babylon Bee.
@Mimai: It doesn’t surprise me the politicians are carrying out “grandparents’ rights” legal flapdoodle in Florida, which is, of course, “God’s Waiting Room”.
What this means, of course, is if you have toxic parents, never, ever, ever allow them to meet your offspring. Stay as non-contact as much as possible. Make sure your parents are not allowed to pick up your kids at school or anywhere else. And for heaven’s sake, make sure you have a will&testament drawn up so that if everything DOES go wrong and you and your partner die, you have already designated other people to take over the care of your kids. Because if it’s left up to a judge, yeah, he’ll hand over custody to “other members of the family”.
The Jan. 6 Committee has just announced a hearing for tomorrow. This is unexpected, the committee wasn’t supposed to reconvene until next month.
Announcement states that it is to cover “recently obtained evidence.”
Curious.
@Michael Reynolds:
It worked for the pro-life movement. They went from basically nothing to dominating a political party and then getting their policies put into place by being a bunch of scolding joyless assholes.
They’re not fun people.
@Jen:
Well, they recently received footage and testimony from a British documentary filmmaker who covered Benito and spawn pre and post election, I think past January 6 as well.
I’ll spare a photon of hope for some major revelations. Just one photon. We’ve been disappointed before.
@Gustopher: True, but a wildly different audience. “Joyless scold” is easier to sell to the “money/guns/Jesus” crowd.
@Jen: The god-botherers are a pretty tiny subset. Guys with guns like to have fun — their idea of fun involves shooting things and making racist jokes, granted, but it’s fun for them — and they’re all in on pro-life now.
The big difference I can see is how the moderate left and right treat their fringes, not the annoying quality of the fringe. Republicans welcome their more extreme members (Reagan’s 11th commandment), while Democrats go through performative hippie punching.
And by that, I would say that MR’s whinging about anyone more than one step to the left of him is almost certainly counter-productive.
You want lefties to turn out to vote for the center-left Democrats. Maybe don’t keep insulting them, and instead try to get them into the coalition.
@Michael Reynolds:
So, I was going to tease you about this, but then I remembered something similar that actually happened to me. It was bonkers, but not bonkers like this,
I think it was 2016, not 100% certain, anyway, it was a young woman and a young man who were out canvassing. The young woman asked who I was voting for and when I said her candidate, she said thank you and prepared to walk away. Turns out the dude was a Bernie Bro and he put his foot in my door and proceeded to lecture me about Bernie and how I HAD TO VOTE FOR HIM! I proceeded to tell him to perform several impossible sexual maneuvers on himself and was barely able to keep my rage in check. This was in the before times. The young woman looked pained through the whole thing and apologized profusely.
My partner said she would have launched through the door at him.
@Gustopher:
Actually, I’ve heard exchanges almost this bad.
@Kathy: I did the colony. With the Robin Hood’s merry men
being the Oakland Raiders. (One of my favorite jokes in the episode.) And the Sheriff being basically Rush Limbaugh…
It was actually the first freelance script they commissioned, even before there was a showrunner.
@grumpy realist:
I can definitely see the cynical angle to this. It’s probably even true.
I do wonder though about the moral implications of the inverted situation. Eg, let’s say that the grandparents are “normal” (ie, not toxic) and the parents are the toxic ones. In fact, let’s say that the parents are Q involved. And they don’t want their precious children infected with the lies of the non-Q grandparents (and their fellow scoundrels).
It sounds like the grandparents have no legal standing, assuming there is no frank abuse going on. And it is this that makes me sigh a heavy sigh.
@Michael Reynolds: Hmm. Could have sworn I read a message from you saying that this was time for the Dems to stop forming circular firing squads. Guess I misread — sorry!
@CSK: And I’m not disagreeing.
@Gustopher:
When I worked in Republican politics, this was certainly the case. The moderate Republicans–and there were a fair number of them back then–politely accepted the fringe candidates and activists because frankly they would work their @sses off campaigning. Everyone kept focused on the #1 job: getting Republicans elected. The state-level party recruited candidates for every seat possible, and they found candidates who matched the district (Dem-leaning district in North County, heavily union–they found a Catholic candidate, union member Republican who hammered on those issues).
There was always some talking behind backs, particularly directed at the pro-choice Republican candidates, but it was rare that anyone would run to the right against them. They just kept slowly clocking up the wins until they had the majority, and then they gerrymandered the districts to lock in their wins. Very disciplined.
@Beth: Good to know that it’s happened once anyway.
Wow. Did you just pull that out of your ass? Because it sure as shit has nothing to do with anything I said, which was “Just want to point out that ugly divorces happen and that in addition to the children, grandparents get caught in the crossfire.”
And I said it in response to this one very narrow point you asserted: “it’s interesting to contemplate just why you can’t see your grandkids at all. “
Maybe you suffer from a lack of imagination and can’t imagine a grandparent investing considerable time and effort into their grandchildren. Maybe you can’t imagine the pain of having that relationship severed for reasons that have nothing to do with you. But I can, I’ve seen it happen. Not to me thank god but it does happen. And when it does it sucks. And that is all I’m saying. It sucks.
So, take your own advice and contemplate the many, many reasons why a grandparent would be denied the ability to see their grandchildren and the fact that some times there is no good reason for it.
Just ftr, this has nothing to with any of the legalities or lack thereof involved. I purposely stayed away from that aspect. But if that’s the strawman you want to engage with, you can leave me out of it.
@Mimai:
So I did some digging on this and it looks like the Markel Act is related a murder case and the custody/visitation fallout from that. Dan Markel and Wendi Adelson were divorced in 2013 – she is implicated in his murder in 2014 but not convicted. From what I read, what kicked off the whole mess was she wanted to move with the kids to Miami from Tallahassee and his family fought her, saying they had to the right to keep them close and it was only 50/50 custody. Her family lived down there and she wanted to move near them. The ex had won a court order preventing the move, prompting the plot to remove him. Interestingly, it seems that the same grandparents that pushed for this law to allow for more visitation rights for grandparents were the same ones to help advocate her mother – the other grandmother – from seeing the kids via court order.
May 15, 2014 — Hearing scheduled for motion to prohibit Adelson’s mother from seeing grandchildren unsupervised is continued without a new hearing scheduled prior to Markel’s death.
In other words, a lot of this seems to be have been motivated one side of the family using the law to force closeness and visitation, driving the other to violence as a solution. After the death of the son, the grandparents still tried to keep the kids close to them and now have a law of their own to back it up. Was the wife’s family toxic or dangerous to begin with? IDK but from the timeline, it looks like a lot of the legal challenges of “you can’t go” came from his side, not hers. Anyone more familiar with this case that can provide details?
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
I had the rep of a well known pop star try to reprimand me for calling her by her name, Demi, rather than “them”. So it’s not too far fetched. At WB, almost every executive has, as part of their signature at the bottom of every email, their preferred pronouns. “Sally Doe (She/Her).” John Doe, (They/Them). It turns more people off than that it does creating allies. My mother is a lifelong Dem, who has voted GOP last two elections because of what she calls “Democratic crazies.” She wouldn’t vote for Trump, but she voted for GOP candidates locally and statewide. She’s a first hand example of Dems losing Latinos to the GOP, and I’ve been saying it since 2016, when I warned that Hilary was ignoring the Latinos in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, not to mention Florida. We’re a 55-45 nation that seems 50-50 due to gerrymandering, but Dems only need to switch 2-3% in several states to have an electoral lock for a long time. It means finding the Testers and Browns in red states that can win by speaking that language, not the language of AOC or Pelosi.
@EddieInCA: I’m genuinely sorry that your mother is apparently an idiot in your telling of the story.
(I suspect that she has been veering in the Republican direction for a while, and is using “San Francisco values” or whatever as an excuse to do what she wanted to do, but if she’s actually so bothered by they/thems or whatever that she’s willing to embrace the party of Jewish space lasers… she’s really a colossal moron.)
@gVOR08: And there is a good bit more about Halsey and his performance in the Pacific in Evan Thomas’s Sea of Thunder.
@Gustopher:
When I look at the history of the GOP Party I see more a group of glibertarian billionaires using the scolding joyless assholes to secure their own power. The Federalist Society was stood up and still financed with Kochtopus money. You hate what they’re doing on guns, abortion, and now school prayer? Wait to ’til you see what they do to corporate, financial, and environmental regulation. And voting. I was about to add money in politics, but I’m not sure there’s much left undone on that agenda.
Now they’re in danger of the inmates taking over the Party. That would be fun to watch, but we’re all going to have to go along for the ride.
@Gustopher: No edit button, but I just wanted to add — if someone is so irked by the left fringe that they don’t mind the right fringe, there’s something else going on.
And your story doesn’t do your mother any respect by leaving the rest of that out. Maybe she’s pro-life, or craves lower taxes, or wants more police presence in her neighborhood…
… or maybe she just really hates gays, blacks and Jews, and has found Q. I’m hoping it’s the taxes or police, for her sake and probably yours as well.
@gVOR08:
Isn’t that ruling literally supposed to come today? I’ve not been watching the court that carefully this term but I’ve been seeing people rumbling about it.
@Gustopher: That really should have been a reply at least in part to @EddieInCA.
Competence is not my strong suit.
@CSK: Except that HE didn’t ask ANYONE to join him. Players asked if they could. They may have been sucking up or trying to. Don’t know. Don’t care. When somebody shows me that he made the starting lineups (fat chance of that as an assistant coach) based on who did/didn’t stay, we can talk again.
And I still agree that such public displays are distasteful–at best. But if your side is gonna make up accusations to support your beliefs, you’re in for a long fight. You’re dealing with “take over the world for Jesus” Dominionists. They’re praying that you’ll show up to oppress them.
@EddieInCA: Hey. I can’t help that your side are touchy assholes. Sorry. And I see the same stuff in postings that I get from people. I shrug and hope that I’ll remember to get it right if I need to. I think it’s all silly to, but I don’t think I would if I were Beth, for example, and I certainly don’t use it as an argument about who I’m not going to post my non ballot for. No dog in this fight, but I don’t care for hyperbole disguised as argument.
@Gustopher: I’m sure WR appreciates your insights about his mother’s motivations. You, of course, would know better than him.
@OzarkHillbilly:
Wow – I pointed out other family members exist, may love the kid just as much and should have the same right to see them as grandparents in contested situations. And you’re getting upset that I’m not emphasizing the specialness of the grandparent and their bond? That grandparents keep insisting their love is more and that’s why they need legal rights others don’t have?? Yeah it sucks but let me tell you – it sucks just as hard to help raise a nephew and then lose them when the divorce happens and have even less social clout to complain with since nobody seems to care about us. People commiserate when “I’m kept from my grandkid” gets trotted out; “I’m being kept from my nephew” doesn’t seem to evoke the same level of understanding. Maybe get off the high horse and take your own advice to consider others pain, hmm? It’s not just about grandparents – they just the ones society takes somewhat seriously
I didn’t say grandparents might not care or love the kids. I said grandparents are trying to insist they have a right in the law based on the concept that their kids had kids and thus that gives them legal standing – an ownership based concept considering their kids are adults and separate legal entities. Otherwise any other relative can make the type of claim but that’s not how it works, is it? It’s not my fault that’s the logic being used. America runs on the nuclear family model and invests a lot of power in parents. Parents are little dictators under the law, being able to make judgements for children based on their whims and beliefs not what’s best for all involved. It’s not my fault that when you get down to it, grandparents are insisting they have a right on seeing another person’s child (potentially against their will of the legal guardian) solely because of lineage and it’s social implications – it’s THEIR grandchild, not their adult child’s child. That they are insisting the power they had before holds still some sway over an independent adult and can mitigate their wishes based solely on that relationship. Not my fault it gets weaponized a lot and sounds terrible when spelled out.
Don’t get mad the law doesn’t take love into account when it defines things. Don’t get mad when someone points out others in a family love kids too and are being kept out of the conversation in favor of a specific socially preferred relationship. Don’t get mad that sadly while parents can be douches to separate kids from grandparents, it’s more likely it’s because the grandparents were the problematic ones. In the end they’re not your kids and you don’t have the rights to them their parents do. That’s how it’s been for a long, long time and the way to change that is to weaken parents rights – not gonna happen in this day and age. Is it cruel they can keep the kids away just because they don’t like you? Yes but as long as parents are the final judge, that’s how it is.
@MarkedMan: “I’m sure WR appreciates your insights about his mother’s motivations.”
Wait! Not my mother! My mother is about as far from Hispanic as you can get — German Lutheran converted to Judaism because it was the last bit of control my father’s mother could exert on him, having failed to get him into med school — and even further from ever voting for a Republican. Berkeley liberal and proud of it!
I think you’ve confused me with Eddie. We’re both in the biz, true, but he’s much younger and more good looking.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
It’s the ostentatiousness of the gesture to which I object. That’s all. By “imposing his beliefs,” I meant doing it so publicly.
@Mimai: Well, until we start thinking that kids have a right to not be raised by batsh*t parents more than crazy parents have a right to have kids….
Most of the cases where I’ve seen the (non-toxic) grandparents take over, it’s been because the mother is a druggie/with a personality disorder/only wants to party/doesn’t want the kid.
(As I’ve gotten older, I’ve come more and more to believe we should have licenses for parenting affirming at least some level of parental ability.)
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
@Gustopher:
https://www.axios.com/2022/06/27/republican-party-voters-democrats-midterms
https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/many-more-dems-switching-parties-than-republicans-during-last-three-months
@wr:
Not that much younger. I think it’s only one year. And as for the better looking, no. Just no. Remember, as I like to say, I have a face perfect for radio.
@MarkedMan: It is Eddie’s mom, and I think I am being generous ascribing a different motivation than the one that he reports — if his story is accurate and complete, his mother is willing to vote for radically different policies and views on government just because the language of the far left bothers her.
She would have to be either wildly ignorant, or comically pig headed and willing to excuse all sorts of shit that she previously objected to.
The fact that she wouldn’t vote for Trump suggests she’s not completely ignorant. Presumably she did not hear Trump saying that the Proud Boys should stand down and stand by and say “Boys really should have more pride, but I disapprove of this particular guy.”
@EddieInCA: I don’t doubt that there is a shift — I just doubt that it is because someone said “LatinX” or had novelty pronouns. I know that it is generally a mistake to make a broad general statement about a group that large, but I don’t think Latinos are that fucking stupid.
Nor do I think your mother is that fucking stupid.
Clumsy outreach and minor irritants are far more likely to depress voter enthusiasm than switch votes.
If I were to hazard a guess as to what is going on, there would be three big reasons:
– a practical pulling away from people attacking the police, as even if you believe the police are awful, they are almost always less worse than no police.
– the beginning of Latinos being considered white. Even White Supremacist groups are becoming tolerant of Latinos and Asians.
– Democrats having little to offer middle class Latinos who have been here for generations, and focusing entirely on immigration issues and poverty.
Tester is great. Brown is awesome. We need more of them. You’ll also notice that neither of them spends much time complaining about the left or addressing them or their language or their silly hair and pronouns at all — they swing straight into common mainstream concerns any time they are mentioned.
On Sherrod Brown, I was disappointed that he didn’t (seriously) run for president in 2020, and my main concern about him in 2024 (assuming no Biden) is that I don’t want to give up that Senate seat.
I expect that the health care plan that he doesn’t pass would be a bit less generous than the healthcare plan the progressives won’t pass, but that seems like a minor price to pay.
Personally I’m startled (I suppose I shouldn’t be) that anyone here thinks it’s correct or useful to trash someone’s mother and their motivations.
Honestly the whole ascribing motives aspect of our politics is one of the most poisonous things about them in the modern age. It’s probably fine (or at least normal) at the top-I’m plenty willing to assign some very negative motives to the Carlson’s and Cruz’s of the world. But some random stranger or their mom? We can’t just say we disagree or point out why they are wrong, we jump to calling them BAD PEOPLE for disagreeing?
Ugh. And again, even if you really think they are bad people, I very seriously doubt calling them or their family members such will be very persuasive.
@Michael Reynolds:
Is this self-therapy?
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
Doesn’t have to. His position of authority makes it coercive, pressuring, and thus inappropriate.
From a parent at the school in question:
Or they used to, before SCOTUS’s radical right extremists decided to turn the US into a theocracy.
Yeah, wow. More strawmen. You can’t even acknowledge the very narrow point I am making.
No, I am not. I am referring to your denigration of such relationships.
I never, NEVER said any such thing. In MY F”N REPLY, I specifically mentioned that I was NOT referring to ANY KIND OF LEGAL RIGHTS!!
No shit, Sherlock.
Jesus H f’n Christ, what the fuck is wrong with you??? I never said any such f’n thing. I know you aren’t stupid, but why in the f’ can’t you stick with the words I am actually writing???
TO REPEAT myself: “Just want to point out that ugly divorces happen and that in addition to the children, grandparents get caught in the crossfire.”
Except for the fact that I NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING. What I did say is that sometimes grandparents are victims too, in response to your original statement that
I don’t. Why do you think I do?
I don’t. Why do you think I do?
I don’t. Why do you think I do?
No shit Sherlock. Where did I say otherwise?
No shit Sherlock, I never said otherwise.
Once again, no shit Sherlock. Do you actually think you are telling me things I don’t already know? I who have spent way too much time in family court for just a dumb ass carpenter.
You know what? Your condescension is way over the top. You obfuscate left and you obfuscate right, all just to avoid acknowledging the fact that sometimes grandparents get hurt too. And that sometimes they sue for what they believe are their rights. Whether they have any rights or not. Why?
Because they are human too.
I am done. You can’t even address the very narrow point I was making without dragging a whole bunch of other things into the discussion that I never said. So, just to repeat my original statement,
Everything you have said in response to that one simple statement has been absolute bullshit, never addressing the very human response.
Common scold laws stayed on the books until 1972 in New Jersey.
I had not been aware that it could be a crime. Nevertheless it bears remembering that nobody likes scolds.
@wr: Sorry-o. And as for looks, on the OTB comment section we truly all look exactly alike.
@Gustopher:
Yeah, duh, which works for them and not for us. Because they’re them, and we’re not. Kind of the point. You know, contrast? They’re the miserable sods so we aren’t supposed to be? Is this confusing for you?
We have two camps upstream here in comments: the facetious, and the easily discouraged. More snark, more impotence, more misplaced self-confidence. That’s how you win a war. No matter how often we lose, we’re right! And nothing needs to change! Cause we’re already just so right! People love us and we make friends everywhere! Please clap.
And yet hardly a day goes by here where someone doesn’t say we oughtta be doing the same kind of stuff that they do. Hmmm…
Sooooo…..what’s everybody drinking? Anybody watching Umbrella Academy?
@Jax:
Blanton’s Special Reserve Bourbon.
https://www.frootbat.com/product/4538476/Blantons-Special-Reserve-Bourbon-700ml-Bottle/United-States?gclid=CjwKCAjwquWVBhBrEiwAt1Kmwpb76B3Sl8O4p4T5vhAEpYPbCaXfTVrBrf63cpDTDdqAuhfdaDG24BoCP9oQAvD_BwE
Watching “The Old Guard” on Netflix. Damn good so far.
@EddieInCA: I’ll have to try that, if I can find it around here! I’ve been nursing some Maker’s Mark with two ice cubes. Umbrella Academy was quite entertaining for the first episode we’ve seen since pre-Covid!
@Jax:
Blanton’s Special Reserve is an odd one. You need to “know a guy”, if you know what I mean. It’s made in the USA… strictly for import. So a friend buys it for me when he goes to the UK and brings it back. About $50. Well worth it. Best $50 bourbon out there, in my opinion. I still like my Weller and Willet much better, but the Blanton is very, very good for the price. The Weller runs about $200 and the Willet goes about $100.
@EddieInCA:
Ugh. for EXPORT, not import.
@Jax: I binged the new Season of Umbrella Academy since it’s too hot out to be outside.
Perfectly adequate!
No idea what people consider spoilers, and a lot of the show runs on the freak factor of weird crap happening, so I won’t say much other than I’m getting used to their level of weird crap, so it doesn’t feel as weird as previous seasons.
@Michael Reynolds: I don’t think you make a good case for that Democrats are underperforming because our fringe is more annoying than Republican fringe.
Finge folks are irritating. I’d say that’s a constant on both sides.
Meanwhile, the alternative explanation, that the regular hippie bashing divides our party and depresses turnout across the left, is at least as plausible. And it’s a huge difference in the parties — we don’t do as good a job at pulling together.
Going back to 2000, Nader got more votes than the difference in Florida. More recently we had BernieBros sitting out in 2016 (one of near countless factors that flipped the election). 2020 was high turnout for both Democrats and Republicans and it was damn close.
It’s a center-left, pro-civil-rights, pro-middling-social-safety-net, pro-corporate party. The progressives aren’t a great fit. They’re not going to vote Republican (except for a few really fucking stupid ones*), but they might not bother to vote. How do you get them to back a boring, standard Democrat when we run one (and that is what we tend to run for most offices)?
Does attacking them get more votes than it loses? Does your beloved circular firing squad help?
——
*: Trump ran on a mixture of anti-corporate and burn-it-to-the-ground populism in 2016, and yes some BernieBros fell for it. He didn’t govern that way, obviously, but he was speaking to the Bernie supporters in a way Clinton wasn’t. Trump gave them a promise of something to vote for — the first major party nominee in their lifetime to actually echo any of the anti corporate rhetoric, while clearly not being a traditional Republican.
@Gustopher:
You’re asking this of a scold who has somehow convinced himself that everyone is a scold except him, the King of Winning Friends and Influencing People. Delusional lol
That’s a question better directed at someone with a minimum level of self-awareness, no?
I guess my main thesis is this: the people who get all worked up over the Novelty Pronoun Patrol and the like aren’t really bothered by the pronouns. They just hate trans people. You’re not getting their votes one way or the other.
Even if you throw the trans folks under the bus, and have a national platform that says trans folk are icky, those people will just hate the gays and refuse to vote Democratic anyway.
You wouldn’t pander to someone who says “I’m not a racist, but…” and attack the Black folks for being so very public about wanting to be treated well.
Pander to someone whose vote you might get. Or at least don’t drive them away.
(And Eddie’s mom is most likely a “why are they focusing on Latinx and not A, B and C. At least the Republicans are talking about C”… the progressives are more of an easy excuse than anything)
Posting to yesterdays forum so tomorrow we can argue about something new and exciting.
(I’m not a racist, but the capybara is the world’s largest rodent)
@KM: The bill DeSantis signed is limited to the unusual and awful situation “where the living parent was found culpable by a criminal or civil court for the other parent’s death.” It allows a grandparent to petition for visitation in that situation. Florida remains more restrictive than most states where grandparent visitation litigation is concerned. I’m afraid that misleading discussions and publicity about this new law will lead grandparents to threaten lawsuits that any competent judge would dismiss.
@EddieInCA: Around here at least, it’s damn near impossible to find Buffalo Trace products anymore. Even their mediocre namesake, which goes for around $30 a fifth, is allocated. I used to buy regular Blanton’s with some regularity in Weller Antique went for something like $37 for a handle in 2013 or so. It’s been impossible to find since.