Wednesday’s Forum

FILED UNDER: Open Forum
Steven L. Taylor
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor of Political Science and a College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog). Follow Steven on Twitter

Comments

  1. Teve says:

    electric vehicles close to a tipping point of mass adoption:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/22/electric-vehicles-close-to-tipping-point-of-mass-adoption

    I live in BFE Florida—but somewhere near both I-10 and I-75 with a Tesla charging station—and 5 years ago spotting a Tesla was worth pointing out. Now it’s a weird day if I don’t see a dozen.

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  2. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Fox hosts accuse media of ‘gushing’ over Biden – after four years of fawning over Trump

    Sean Hannity, Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham comments have raised eyebrows and struck many as hypocritical

    Fox News on Media Bias: Then and Now | The Daily Social Distancing Show (2:19)

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  3. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Portland mayor pepper-sprays maskless man after Covid rules confrontation

    The mayor of Portland, Oregon, pepper-sprayed a maskless resident who confronted him about the city’s Covid-19 rules after a meal out. Ted Wheeler, the Democratic mayor since 2016, had been dining with a former mayor, Sam Adams, when the two were confronted by a man carrying a video camera on Sunday evening outside a local pub, according to a police report obtained by Oregon Live.

    The man accused the pair of dining without masks, according to the report. Wheeler reportedly told the man the pair were dining in a tented area and so did not need to cover their faces under current regulations. The man closely followed the mayor as he walked to his car, according to the report.
    ……………………
    “He had no face mask on and got within a foot or two of my face while he was videoing me,” Wheeler told police. “I became imminently concerned for my personal safety.”

    He added: “I clearly informed him that he needed to back off. He did not do so I informed him that I was carrying pepper spray and that I would use it if he did not back off. He remained at close distance, I pulled out my pepper spray and I sprayed him in the eyes.”

    The mayor gave the man a bottle of water to rinse his face, according to the report.

    Ted Ted Ted… That is not how it’s done. First you pepper spray him in the eyes, then you kick him in the nuts. You don’t help wash his eyes out.

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  4. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Marjorie Taylor Greene indicated support for executing prominent Democrats in 2018 and 2019 before running for Congress

    (CNN)Republican Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene repeatedly indicated support for executing prominent Democratic politicians in 2018 and 2019 before being elected to Congress, a CNN KFile review of hundreds of posts and comments from Greene’s Facebook page shows.
    …………………………………..
    In one post, from January 2019, Greene liked a comment that said “a bullet to the head would be quicker” to remove House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. In other posts, Greene liked comments about executing FBI agents who, in her eyes, were part of the “deep state” working against Trump.
    ………………………………..
    After CNN reached out to Greene, her personal Twitter account posted a statement in which she did not deny that she liked posts and replied to comments but claimed that many people have run her Facebook page. “Over the years, I’ve had teams of people manage my pages. Many posts have been liked. Many posts have been shared. Some did not represent my views. Especially the ones that CNN is about to spread across the internet,” she wrote.

    Yes, “teams of people”, because construction company VPs are just too busy to manage their very very important facebook accounts which are very central to the business.

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  5. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Teve: Did you see this the other day? Electric car batteries with five-minute charging times produced

    Batteries capable of fully charging in five minutes have been produced in a factory for the first time, marking a significant step towards electric cars becoming as fast to charge as filling up petrol or diesel vehicles.

    Electric vehicles are a vital part of action to tackle the climate crisis but running out of charge during a journey is a worry for drivers. The new lithium-ion batteries were developed by the Israeli company StoreDot and manufactured by Eve Energy in China on standard production lines.

    StoreDot has already demonstrated its “extreme fast-charging” battery in phones, drones and scooters and the 1,000 batteries it has now produced are to showcase its technology to carmakers and other companies. Daimler, BP, Samsung and TDK have all invested in StoreDot, which has raised $130m to date and was named a Bloomberg New Energy Finance Pioneer in 2020.

    The batteries can be fully charged in five minutes but this would require much higher-powered chargers than used today. Using available charging infrastructure, StoreDot is aiming to deliver 100 miles of charge to a car battery in five minutes in 2025.

    “The number one barrier to the adoption of electric vehicles is no longer cost, it is range anxiety,” said Doron Myersdorf, CEO of StoreDot. “You’re either afraid that you’re going to get stuck on the highway or you’re going to need to sit in a charging station for two hours. But if the experience of the driver is exactly like fuelling [a petrol car], this whole anxiety goes away.”

    “A five-minute charging lithium-ion battery was considered to be impossible,” he said. “But we are not releasing a lab prototype, we are releasing engineering samples from a mass production line. This demonstrates it is feasible and it’s commercially ready.”

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  6. CSK says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    People who want to believe that MTG had “teams of people” managing her FB account will purport to believe it.

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  7. Teve says:

    I’ve thought for a while now that the right-wing information bubble has put American democracy in peril.

    Kevin Drum argues that it’s not really all that bad

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  8. CSK says:

    The number of Trumpkins who are busy trying to convince themselves and others that the Capitol Building invasion and takeover was a “false flag”operation by Antifa and BLM is growing by leaps and bounds.

    At first they claimed it and took pride in it. Now? Not so much.

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  9. gVOR08 says:

    @Teve: Drum sometimes bends over backwards to be “reasonable”. He didn’t directly address RW misinformation, but pointed out, rightly, that the system held, that election officials did their jobs and judges threw out the nonsense lawsuits. And he’s right, democracy is strong, and it held. But I can’t help but feel in the back of my mind that democracy will continue to hold. Until it doesn’t.

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  10. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @gVOR08: Drum sometimes bends over backwards to be “reasonable”.

    And drives me nuts with it sometimes.

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  11. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Registration cards of Dutch Holocaust victims to go on display

    Nearly 160,000 registration cards belonging to Dutch Jews and people from other persecuted minorities, many of whom were destined for Nazi death camps, will be put on display for the first time in the National Holocaust Museum in Amsterdam after being handed over by the Red Cross.

    The cards include name, address, date of birth, profession, marital status, family composition and, in three out of four cases, the date of their transport to a concentration camp written in red pencil. They ended up with the Red Cross after the war and were used to locate missing persons.

    Jews in the Netherlands had been forced to register by the German invaders from 1941. The collection is believed to be the most comprehensive record to survive the second world war.

    The Dutch Red Cross has passed ownership of the records to the Jewish Cultural Quarter of Amsterdam, an umbrella organisation of several institutions, including the Dutch National Holocaust Museum.
    ……………………
    The index will go on display next year when the museum reopens after renovation works are completed. In a statement, the Red Cross said the collection was “of great value not only as an archive but also as a museum monument and a tangible reminder of the Holocaust”.

    Anne Frank’s card.

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  12. Teve says:

    @gVOR08: @OzarkHillbilly: i just came from FB where some Trump boot-licker was claiming Trump should get the Nobel Prize in Medicine for his heroic work on the vaccine.

    Some of these people are delusional.

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  13. OzarkHillbilly says:

    The edit function is borked in a major way this AM.

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  14. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Teve: Some of these people are delusional.

    And the rest are racist pos.

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  15. CSK says:

    @Teve:
    I wasn’t aware Trump had invented it.

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  16. gVOR08 says:

    @CSK: We aren’t up to Dr. Crusher’s med lab, where she could sequence the DNA of an alien bug and brew up a vaccine that afternoon. But the speed with which we were able to create not one but several vaccines (most of which Trump had nothing to do with) speaks to us getting pretty good.

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  17. Kylopod says:

    @CSK:

    At first they claimed it and took pride in it. Now? Not so much.

    It’s not different from people who deny the Holocaust happened while simultaneously trying to justify it or imply something like it should happen again.

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  18. CSK says:

    @Kylopod:
    Well, it is different in the sense that the Trumpkins aren’t denying the Capitol invasion happened; they’ve just decided to deny taking part in it, whereas at first they were proud to take credit for the mayhem. After all, “their” president told them to do it.

    It will be interesting to see how they persuade themselves that that nitwit realtor from Texas was in fact a BLM operative.

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  19. Tyrell says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Have you seen the new Ford Mustang Mach E ev? Hot, hot!
    0-60: 7 seconds, top speed 111 mph, 266 hp. Not bad for an Eveready machine.
    The price comes in at a whopping $43,995. I doubt you will see one of those on Price is Right!
    The only problem is it will not have that Ford V8 sound!

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  20. Kylopod says:

    @CSK:

    Well, it is different in the sense that the Trumpkins aren’t denying the Capitol invasion happened; they’ve just decided to deny taking part in it, whereas at first they were proud to take credit for the mayhem.

    And Holocaust deniers don’t deny that the Nazis murdered many Jews. They deny the scale of it, and they deny there was a systematic attempt to wipe the Jews out. The objective is to make the Germans out to be guilty of no more than ordinary war atrocities, so their “side” can be defended more easily.

    It can’t be an exact analogy because we’re talking about two very different sorts of events. The commonality is an attempt by advocates of the beliefs that led to the event trying to wash their hands clean of responsibility for what happened, so they can go on promoting those same radical, murderous beliefs without the shame arising from the consequences.

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  21. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Tyrell: While I hope my wife’s next vehicle will be an E-car, I doubt it will be one of those. Tho it would be fun.

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  22. @Teve: I will have to read his whole piece in greater detail later, but the beginning sets me off a bit

    How is democracy faring these days? The conventional wisdom is that it’s doing pretty poorly, and not just in the US. Look at Hungary and Poland. Or Brazil.

    The thing is, it is not just “the conventional wisdom” that is concerned about democracy globally. A lot of very serious, knowledgeable political scientists have been concerned about democratic erosion for several years now. Poland is a clear case (as it Hungary).

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  23. Kathy says:

    @CSK:

    “Victory has a thousand parents. Defeat is an orphan.”

    And in the Trump and post-Trump eras, it’s acceptable* to defend the brave patriots who did as their fuhrer told them, while condemning the whole thing as a false flag operation to tarnish said fuhrer.

    *For trumpers.

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  24. Teve says:

    @Steven L. Taylor: he makes some good points, but it’s not hard to imagine Jan 6 going differently with a smarter, more capable asshole in Trump’s place.

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  25. Kathy says:

    @gVOR08:

    We’re almost there.

    My understanding is that the design of the Moderna vaccine took all of two days.

    There are plenty of caveats, though. First, the mRNA technology took years to develop. Second, the design was that fast only after the SARS-CoV-2 genome was worked out, which took more than two days. Third, testing for safety and efficacy took months.

    Now we know the mRNA technology is generally safe. But we still need to determine, in future vaccines, whether the protein they induce cells to produce is 1) also safe, and 2) is effective. So, the need to hold testing trials will mean months from outbreak to vaccine. But the speed at which they can be developed means also that testing can take place soon after the outbreak.

    Oh, and fourth: as we are learning, mass production and distribution of vaccines is still a problem.

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  26. Sleeping Dog says:

    @Kathy:

    Production and distribution will always be a problem as long as the default is efficient supply chains. If the decision is to build (expensive) added capacity that won’t be used production and distribution will be a bottle neck. Pfizer closed a production plant in Belgium(?) to retool it for increased production of the vaccine and while by years end, that facility will produce more vaccine than if they didn’t retool, it the short run that is exacerbating shortages.

    A few weeks ago there was an article on why California hospitals are struggling so badly and one of the things it pointed out is that Cali has one of the lowest bed to population ratios in the country. That makes care more cost effective, but now they don’t a place or staff to put all the patients.

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  27. MarkedMan says:

    @Sleeping Dog:

    Production and distribution will always be a problem as long as the default is efficient supply chains

    I’ve actually been wondering about this. If we can cut down the time to develop vaccines and get the cost down, we may develop vaccines for a lot more things. I could envision a quarterly jab to get protection against the latest cold, flu, etc. Capacity would naturally go up and the same mechanism and delivery points could be used for emergency vaccinations.

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  28. CSK says:

    @Kathy:
    It takes a far greater capacity for cognitive dissonance than I have to be able to do that.

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  29. Sleeping Dog says:

    @MarkedMan:

    Long term demand will increase production, while short term demand normally simply increases prices. If mRNA vax achieve the promise, then we may have lots of vaccines for stuff we don’t bother with now and that would result in increased production capability that potentially can be switched when the next covid-19 like pandemic occurs. The question then becomes how easy is it to adapt a production facility for a different vaccine? Knowing nothing about the production of mRNA vax, I’ve no idea.

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  30. Teve says:

    Some dude on a NYT podcast said the best estimate is that 1/3 of the US population has been infected with Sars-cov-2. I waited to post about this until I talked to my friend Tara who is an epidemiologist, and she said no it’s probably more like 1/4. JFC.

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  31. William Burt says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    36 years ago when I moved here, I became convinced that Portland’s unofficial motto should be “Things sure are different here”

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  32. Teve says:

    For people hoping that Qanon would end with the inauguration, keep in mind the Millerites, who kept revising the day of the end of the world over and over. They’re still around, 176 years later.

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  33. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    Well yes, that’s how it’s done…here.
    I moved here 36 years ago, and quickly realized that the city motto* should be

    Portland – Things sure are different here

    *And the state motto should be “xenophobes unite”

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  34. CSK says:

    @Teve:
    It’s difficult to keep up with these loons, but I believe one of their latest “beliefs” is that President Trump will be inaugurated on March 4.

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  35. Teve says:

    @CSK: I’m 44. So I will probably go to my grave with QAnon still extant.

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  36. Kylopod says:

    @Teve:

    For people hoping that Qanon would end with the inauguration, keep in mind the Millerites, who kept revising the day of the end of the world over and over. They’re still around, 176 years later.

    First of all, I’m not sure who claimed QAnon would go away after the inauguration. It isn’t the first time they’ve had to revise their predictions: they also did it after Mueller ended his investigation without an arrest warrant for Tom Hanks.

    That said, it’s not always easy to tell how much life crackpot movements have left in them. After the killing of Osama Bin Laden there quickly arose a conspiracy theory that he wasn’t really dead. That theory is still around today (Trump tweeted about it last year), but it turned out to be much, much more minimal than I expected. I thought it was going to be something at least as big as the moon-hoax theories. Apparently, the crackpots overall simply lost interest in OBL.

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  37. Kathy says:

    On yesterday’s topic about lies, I got to thinking the Constanza maxim “It’s not a lie if you believe it.”

    If you’re deluded about something, that nevertheless seems true to you, it feels true. So propagating a delusion is not, strictly speaking, a lie. But it does require to ignore or rationalize away a great deal of contrary evidence, where such exists.

    Consider Linus Pauling. there’s no question the man was a brilliant biochemist, who made significant contributions to the field (he won a Nobel prize in chemistry, and later one for peace). But he then took up the cause of mega doses of vitamins as a cure-all.

    Significantly, when faced with contrary evidence in the form of peer reviewed papers in reputable journals (like the New England Journal of Medicine), his reaction was to threaten to sue the journals and the papers’ authors.

    What does that mean? To me, it means Pauling knew he couldn’t refute the evidence or the studies, so he resorted to threats. Surely he knew a legal ruling is meaningless in scientific matters. If every court in the land declares Pi to be equal to 3, the fact remains the ratio of a circle’s diameter to its circumference remains 3.14159 etc.

    Next he tried to rationalize things away. If a study claimed high doses of vitamin C did not affect the course of cancer, he claimed the results were tainted by also treating the patients with radiation or chemotherapy.

    I see a level of doublethink involved. Pauling believes mega doses of vitamin C prevent and cure all sorts of diseases, but at some level he realizes this is not so. and yet, he clings to the delusion. I won’t speculate as to why, but it’s instructive to see this can happen to a brilliant scientists, well acquainted with scientific standards of evidence.

    I have little doubt Trump is not merely claiming the election was fraudulent. That is to say, in his own mind he’s not lying, he really believes it, and no amount of contrary evidence will change his mind. But at some level he knows this is not so.

    His enablers are far more guilty. They know he’s lying. Some might have deluded themselves by now, but I don’t think so. I mena people like Hawley, Cruz, Paul, Rubio, etc. Even those merely asking for assurances about the election, they know that’s based on a lie.

    And then there are the Trump cultists and other supporters. They may believe the lie. People believe big lies more readily. For whatever reason, they trust Trump, and think he’s telling them the truth. Add the long term baseless claims of fraud prevention by the GOP, and why should they doubt it?

    Now, trump may not be capable of changing his mind due to mere evidence, but he does know he cannot refute it. So he resorts to threats. And he may think, delusionally or not, that he can convince enough people of his belief to overturn the results.

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  38. Jen says:

    In case anyone didn’t think that covid screening could somehow be worse, China says “Hold our beer.”

    China rolls out anal swab coronavirus tests, saying it’s more accurate than throat method

    Just don’t mix up the testing equipment.

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  39. CSK says:

    @Jen:
    And a hearty “amen” to that.

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  40. CSK says:

    Per CNN, Melania Trump is said to be seeking office space “in the Palm Beach area” to continue her “Be Best” initiative. I guess Ma-a-Lago isn’t big enough to accommodate her and her husband’s offices. Either that or she’s preparing to move out completely and divorce the creep.

    Maybe she could call it “The Office of Vacuity and Self-Absorption.” I’m not sure what else she has to contribute to the national dialogue, other than: “I really don’t care, do u?”

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  41. Sleeping Dog says:

    Palm Beach conducting a ‘legal review‘ of the loser using Mar-a-Lago as a residence.

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  42. inhumans99 says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Holy cow, that then and now youtube is awesome. There is a whole lot of projection going on at Fox News right now as you can tell the FOX critters are straight up bummed that Fox will no longer be the go to source for news for Biden and his team.

    TC and Hannity loved that even though everyone kept saying that yes, Fox News is the king of the cable news channels, this still means you are reaching a fairly small percentage of Americans who watch TV, but over the past 4-6 years (also during the time Trump was making noise about running for office) Fox would say something nasty about liberals, and instead of preaching to the choir (their TV watching audience) they knew, again, they knew that the audience who would see/hear their words was much larger than what was reported in the ratings due to amplification from Trump and his team in the White House.

    Now, they are back to preaching to the choir which kind of sucks. Fox finds themselves in the odd position of now having to figure out how to worm their way back into the White House press room or suing for access to White House briefings, something that must drive Hannity and TC a bit nuts if we are being honest.

    They had a President who would just out of the blue call into their shows and chat with them on air, you do not get anymore direct access to the President than that…as much as they slam Biden and his administration, both Hannity and TC would love it if Biden called into their shows to chat, they lost a friend when Trump was not re-elected and are probably still experiencing the withdrawal symptoms that accompany the loss of direct access to the President of the United States.

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  43. Kylopod says:

    @Kathy:

    On yesterday’s topic about lies, I got to thinking the Constanza maxim “It’s not a lie if you believe it.”

    I’ve got a confession to make: I’ve never watched more than a few episodes and a smattering of clips from Seinfeld. I’m unfamiliar with most of the references, and I don’t know the original context of that quote. I always see it invoked sarcastically, as if it represents a deluded rationalization people make for lying. If so, I disagree. Or, rather, I agree with Costanza!

    It indeed is not a lie if the person believes it. Now, I realize there’s somewhat of a gray area when it comes to self-deception. If you convince yourself of something by telling it to yourself often enough, then probably deep down you know the truth. So therefore, it is a lie even if you appear to “believe” it on the surface. As long as there’s any level of awareness that it isn’t true–even if subconsciously–I can see an argument for calling it a lie.

    That’s what’s tricky about Trump. But what I think some people get wrong is failing to understand that the engine behind narcissism is in fact deep self-hatred. Trump knows he’s a pile of human garbage–an utterly worthless excuse for a human being. He’s known it his entire life, for as long as he’s had any sense of self. His entire purpose in life–what he obsesses on every waking moment–is a pathetically obvious and transparent attempt to erase that self-evident reality in the minds of others by screaming at every opportunity that he’s the most awesome godlike being ever to grace the planet. There are actually many narcissists walking around who share these traits. What sets Trump apart is that he never developed the social intelligence common to most people over the age of 4 on how to persuade people effectively. The only technique he knows is the Jedi Mind Trick–insisting on something that conflicts with people’s eyes and ears and then simply attempting to make people believe it through sheer force of will. The trouble is, this technique does have a certain influence on the weak-minded.

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  44. Owen says:

    @Tyrell: I don’t know if they still do it, but a couple of years ago Ford wired the sub-woofers in certain models to “enhance” the exhaust note. I’m sure they can do that with the Mach e as well.

    It would be like the 1980 movie “Airplane” though, where the engine noise soundtrack of the jet Boeing 707 was from a multi-engine prop plane (I’ve wondered if that engine noise was captured from the 1957 movie “Zero Hour” that “Airplane” was a parody of).

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  45. CSK says:

    @Kylopod:
    Trump once said that he never looked inside himself because he was afraid he might not like what he saw.

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  46. CSK says:

    @Sleeping Dog:
    He probably doesn’t want to lose the rental income on the three adjoining properties he owns.

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  47. Sleeping Dog says:

    @Tyrell:
    @CSK:

    For years BMW has played exhaust, engine sounds through the audio system on a few models, the 6 series cars in particular.

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  48. Sleeping Dog says:

    above should be @Owen:

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  49. Tyrell says:

    @Owen: Yes, and the volume and tone is adjustable. I had a Chevy Impala SS. I took off the stock mufflers and put on some Pacemakers. It had a nice, throaty sound. But few would be the Ford Boss 429: 600 horsepower. Just hearing those things startup quickens one’s pulse.

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  50. JohnSF says:

    @Owen:
    The 2013 to 2019 version of the Renault Clio had a whole variety of fake engine noise that can be played via its sound system.
    I think it got dropped from the current model due to general sniggering.

    I have vaguely heard of enterprising, if daft, car sound system enthusiasts rigging up massive boot sound systems to direct the noise outside the car. People amazed as a Clio hatch goes past sounding like a Nissan GT-R on full chat. LOL.

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  51. Kathy says:

    @Kylopod:

    I’ve got a confession to make: I’ve never watched more than a few episodes and a smattering of clips from Seinfeld. I’m unfamiliar with most of the references, and I don’t know the original context of that quote.

    Sacrilege! 🙂

    I don’t recall the exact context, but it involved George advising Jerry on a lie, ending with the maxim “It’s not a lie if you believe it.”

    I’ve made up lies I came to believe, as I’m sure most people have. Just never something that big. Things like “traffic was murder” when I show up late somewhere but traffic was actually normal. After you offer the excuse to several people, you’re convinced traffic was backed up for miles.

    Bigger likes, like why you didn’t study for a test, are also repeated. But I know t it’s a lie and while I may wish it were true, I don’t really believe it. I assume it works that way with others.

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  52. JohnSF says:

    @Teve:
    IIRC current UK new car registrations have electric and hybrids at between 20% to 25%.
    Numbers have exploded over the past 5 years.

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  53. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Kylopod: It indeed is not a lie if the person believes it.

    To which I want to politely reply by saying, “Bullshit.”

    false·hood
    /ˈfôlsˌho͝od/

    noun: falsehood
    the state of being untrue.

    One’s understanding does not, can not make a falsehood true, ergo it is still a lie whether the person who utters it is aware of that fact or not.

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  54. DrDaveT says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    One’s understanding does not, can not make a falsehood true

    If every falsehood were a lie, this would be a conclusive argument. A lie is a deliberate falsehood.

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  55. Kylopod says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    @Kylopod: It indeed is not a lie if the person believes it.

    To which I want to politely reply by saying, “Bullshit.”

    false·hood
    /ˈfôlsˌho͝od/

    noun: falsehood
    the state of being untrue.

    One’s understanding does not, can not make a falsehood true, ergo it is still a lie whether the person who utters it is aware of that fact or not.

    I didn’t say anything about the definition of falsehood I was talking about the definition of lie. Here is Merriam-Webster:

    lie verb (2)
    \ ˈlī \
    lied; lying\ ˈlī-​iŋ \
    Definition of lie (Entry 3 of 6)
    intransitive verb

    1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
    She was lying when she said she didn’t break the vase.
    He lied about his past experience.
    2: to create a false or misleading impression
    Statistics sometimes lie.
    The mirror never lies.
    transitive verb

    : to bring about by telling lies
    He lied his way out of trouble.

    lie noun (2)
    \ ˈlī \
    Definition of lie (Entry 4 of 6)
    1a: an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to be untrue with intent to deceive
    He told a lie to avoid punishment.
    b: an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writer
    the lies we tell ourselves to feel better
    historical records containing numerous lies
    2: something that misleads or deceives
    His show of remorse was a lie.
    3: a charge of lying (see LIE entry 3)

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  56. Mu Yixiao says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    lie verb (2)
    intransitive verb

    1: to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive

    There’s a difference between saying something that is false, and telling a lie. That difference is the knowledge/intent.

    If asked, most people will say that 46 people have been sworn in as President of the United States. These people aren’t lying. They believe what they’re saying.

    They are also saying something that is not, objectively, true. 45 people have been sworn in. Grover Cleveland counts as two separate presidencies (22 & 24), but he is not two different people.

    🙂

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  57. Mu Yixiao says:

    Ninja’d by Kylopod.

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  58. JohnSF says:

    @Sleeping Dog:

    Production and distribution will always be a problem…

    There is building potential, for a massive row this side of the pond over that.
    EU are accusing AstraZeneca of failing to meet their commitments on vaccine delivery after massive funding, AZ disputing.
    EU are claiming AZ is unjustifiably delivering more vaccines to UK; AZ and UK govt. claiming that it reflects the different contract terms, yelling commences.

    Here’s where it has the potential to get very nasty very fast: EU may demand AZ redirect some output of UK vaccine supply to make up the European shortfall on grounds of equity.
    UK govt. already making “unofficial” noises about blocking any diversion from UK production.
    In turn some EU voices beginning “off the record” to moot a retaliation of blocking deliveries of the European production of the Pfizer and Janssen-Cilag vaccines.

    Oh oh.

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  59. Kathy says:

    here’s an untrue story:

    Feynman, Einstein and Schrödinger walk into a bar.

    Feynman says, “It appears we’re inside a joke.”

    Einstein replies, “But only to an observer who saw us walk in simultaneously.”

    To which Schrödinger says, “If someone’s looking in the window, I’m leaving.”

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  60. CSK says:

    More ignominy for the Head Churl:

    The board of the condo across the street from Mar-a-Lago has voted unanimously to remove the name “Trump Plaza” from its towers.

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  61. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Kylopod: @Mu Yixiao: We are responsible for the things we say, and it behooves us to be correct. This is not to say a person can’t make a mistake, state a thing to the best of their knowledge which later turns out to be wrong. But uttering a falsehood thru willful ignorance does not exonerate one of a lie.

    All these people running around saying Biden stole the election? They are liars. They want a thing to be true so badly they accept all the blatant lies without question and ignore anything that contradicts what they want to be true. Not because they can’t tell the difference, but because they don’t want to tell the difference.

    But according to George they aren’t lying. And so I repeat, bullshit.

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  62. Kathy says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I’m confused. Biden has stated several times by now that the past administration (so-called) left various problems, drew back or eliminated various practices, etc.

    Well and good. but now Biden is working to fix these issues, making plans, issuing orders, and so on, instead of merely complaining about Trump and letting the problems fester.

    What gives?

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  63. Kylopod says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    We are responsible for the things we say, and it behooves us to be correct. This is not to say a person can’t make a mistake, state a thing to the best of their knowledge which later turns out to be wrong. But uttering a falsehood thru willful ignorance does not exonerate one of a lie.

    The operative word there is willful, i.e. with intent. If there’s no intent to deceive, it isn’t a lie, no matter how inaccurate it is.

    As I said, there’s a gray area when it comes to lying to oneself. People can talk themselves into believing something when, deep down, they know it isn’t true. I’d agree with you in calling that a kind of lying. But if there’s no awareness whatsoever that the claim isn’t accurate–not even subconsciously–it isn’t a lie by any definition.

    All these people running around saying Biden stole the election? They are liars.

    Many of them? Sure. All of them? I don’t think so. You may not realize how brainwashed some people who consume right-wing media are. If OANN or whatever says there was massive voter fraud, they truly, sincerely believe there was–because it comes from sources which they trust. They didn’t talk themselves into believing it–they believe it because they can’t conceive that they’re being lied to, and because it fits their preconceptions and prejudices about the world which these sources feed into.

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  64. Sleeping Dog says:

    @JohnSF:

    Saw something about that row this morning. Not really surprised and with the UK out of the EU, with likely hard feelings on both sides, there isn’t a low level bureaucratic way of resolving it. Low level bureaucratic solutions are often, if not usually better, as the egos involved are smaller and the bureaucrat simply wants a resolution so to move on to something else.

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  65. JohnSF says:

    @Sleeping Dog:
    It may not be helping that the UK is also picking a fight over the diplomatic status of the EU Embassy in London. Insisting that UK will no longer give EU full “nation” level diplomatic recognition, which almost everybody else does.
    Probably Secretary Raab is trying to burnish his credentials with the brexiteers and stoke the brexit/remain culture war.

    And vaccine supply in Europe has been hampered by the failure of the Sanofi/GlaxoSmithKline vaccine, so Sanofi are converting to produce Pfizer (dunno what GSK are doing).

    Also company ownership and governance might get tangled up in it: AZ is UK/Swedish, GSK UK/Swiss.

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  66. CSK says:

    Cloris Leachman has died. Natural causes. She was 94.

    All together now: “Yes! Yes! Yes! He vass…MY BOYFRIEND!”

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  67. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Kylopod:

    The operative word there is willful, i.e. with intent. If there’s no intent to deceive, it isn’t a lie, no matter how inaccurate it is.

    To start with, they are willfully deceiving themselves. Something we all do at one time or another. I’ve been there on a personal level and I well recognize it in others.

    But if there’s no awareness whatsoever that the claim isn’t accurate–not even subconsciously–it isn’t a lie by any definition.

    Is it true? If not, it’s a falsehood.

    You may not realize how brainwashed some people who consume right-wing media are.

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA… I live among these idiots, I am surrounded by them. I know exactly what they are.

    They didn’t talk themselves into believing it–they believe it because they can’t conceive that they’re being lied to,

    Ah yes, the old, “It’s not their fault, they are blameless, the poor souls.” Bullshit, especially that last part about not being able to “conceive that they’re being lied to”. C’mon, you know gawddamned good and well that they can conceive of being lied to. What is it they call people like me? Oh yeah, “Lieberals.” What do they call media sources not named FOX or OANN or whatever? Oh yeah, “fake news.” Stop making excuses for these people, because they sure as hell do talk themselves into believing it. You even say as much:

    because it fits their preconceptions and prejudices about the world which these sources feed into.

    So stop it, these people aren’t stupid. They know good and well that trump lies every time he opens his mouth. They might call it “No More Bullshit” but that’s only because it fits their preconceptions and prejudices about what the world should be, not what it is. They see those preconceptions and prejudices falling apart all around them and they can’t face it so they lash out, brandishing their guns because they have nothing else but losing arguments.

    Oh and feel free to insert Jim Wright’s “not all” when it appears that I am implying otherwise, like for instance when I say, “these people aren’t stupid” because by and large they aren’t, but some of them are definitely grade A morons.

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  68. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Kathy: I’m confused.

    That makes 2 of us because I have no idea what you are talking about.

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  69. Mu Yixiao says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I think we’re talking past each other–and our “willfulometers” calibrated differently.

    We are responsible for the things we say, and it behooves us to be correct. This is not to say a person can’t make a mistake, state a thing to the best of their knowledge which later turns out to be wrong. But uttering a falsehood thru willful ignorance does not exonerate one of a lie.

    I have had far more opportunity than I wish was possible to deal with people (mostly women) in abusive relationships. They use “willful ignorance” as a valuable survival tool. The same as they use cognitive dissonance.

    These are people who are–outside of that relationship–strong, independent, and intelligent.

    I have a very good friend who, with my encouragement and assistance*, just got out of a 10-year abusive relationship. He wasn’t physically abusive, he was mentally and emotionally abusive. He lied to her for 10 years in order to manipulate her. She believed the lies because they were so good, and played upon her weaknesses (and, oddly, her strengths**).

    My friend is still dealing with the lies she was told and believed. There was a situation this week where she said she said she trusted me with something–and then acted in a way that shows she obviously doesn’t. She didn’t lie to me. She honestly believed what she said–but her trained responses took over.

    You see Trumpists as evil people that need to be despised and defeated. No excuses for their behavior.

    I see most of them as victims. They were looking for someone who understood them–who stood up for them, because they’re weak. Trump stepped in and, like an abusive boyfriend, played on their fears and promised them a rose garden. They believe him.

    The President of the United States of America said these things are true. If you can’t believe him, who can you believe?

    For some, it’s genetic. They simply don’t have the mental capacity to understand that they’re being manipulated.

    For most, it’s our fault. For 30 years we’ve been “protecting” our children from anything that might possibly hurt them. We haven’t allowed them to encounter conflict. We’ve been “scheduling play dates” instead of shooing them out the door to play with their friend (and be sure to come home when the street lights come on!).

    We haven’t exposed them to opposing viewpoints and encouraged them to find common ground. We haven’t taught them that strength comes from understanding defeat. We haven’t given them the tools they need to stand up to bullies and manipulators.

    We have bred a generation of easily-manipulated fools who are quick to outrage at the slightest provocation.

    And you’re making it worse by insisting on animosity and confrontation when pity and education are what we need.

    ==========
    * I’m just one of several people who did the same.
    ** She is someone who cares and wants to help people. He played the “wounded soldier”.

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  70. Kathy says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I guess sarcasm doesn’t speak for itself then.

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  71. Jax says:

    The Wyoming Republican party has evolved into cannibalism. The Trump faction Vs. The Old Guard.

    I am so here for this, bought popcorn, and will update you regularly. 🙂

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