Friday’s Forum

FILED UNDER: Open Forum
Steven L. Taylor
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor of Political Science and a College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog). Follow Steven on Twitter

Comments

  1. Bill says:
  2. Bill says:
  3. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Bill: Well of course, you know how dangerous a paralyzed black man can be. He might bite somebody’s knee caps. He might bleed on somebody.

    4
  4. Sleeping Dog says:

    Summing up the R convention, one picture is worth a 1000 words.

  5. sam says:
  6. Scott says:

    Kenosha shooting suspect called a friend to say he ‘killed somebody,’ police say, and then shot two others

    A journalist who was following the suspect and the victim at the time provided investigators with more details on what happened. He told investigators the victim was trying to get the suspect’s gun, according to the complaint.

    Another video shows the suspect running from the scene followed by people in hot pursuit.
    “A person can be heard yelling what sounds like, “Beat him up!”

    Another person can be heard yelling what sounds like, “Hey, he shot him!” the criminal complaint alleges. In another video, a person yells, “Get him! Get that dude!”

    “When Huber reaches the defendant it appears that he is reaching for the defendant’s gun with his left hand as the skateboard makes contact with the defendant’s left shoulder. … The defendant rolls towards his left side and as Huber appears to be trying to grab the gun. the gun is pointed at Huber’s body. The defendant then fires one round … Huber staggers away, taking several steps, then collapses to the ground,” the complaint says.

    Anybody want to bet that this case goes the way of George Zimmermann. Zimmermann stalks and kills Trayvon Martin but gets away with it because it was self defense against the very person who was the victim.

    7
  7. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Scott: Stand your Ground only applies when one has a gun. And is white.

    6
  8. CSK says:

    @sam:
    She was swept out into the Gulf of Corinth by strong currents. Her parents notified the harbormaster, who in turn notified the ferry that picked her up. Incredible rescue.

    3
  9. Sleeping Dog says:

    @Scott:

    From Jamelle Bouie’s column in today’s NYT

    This is a complicated situation, but a few things are clear. Wisconsin isn’t a “Stand Your Ground” state, and Rittenhouse was in illegal possession of a weapon — under Wisconsin law, it is a Class A misdemeanor for a minor to carry a deadly weapon in the open. There is also no legal right in the state to use deadly force for the protection of property you do not own. And in any case the “Castle Doctrine” only applies to the use of deadly force in one’s home, vehicle or business.

    The right is trying desperately to make Rittenhouse a hero.

    10
  10. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @sam: Terrifying doesn’t quite encompass that. It’s worse.

  11. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Sleeping Dog: Just like George Zimmermann before him, he’s their hero. I find it interesting how they embrace the very people who do the most damage to their cause.

    1
  12. Jon says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: They don’t seem them as damaging their cause, rather as proving their point(s).

    And this is why we can’t have nice things.

    1
  13. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Jon: I know, but the sane 75-80% of Americans who don’t worship guns have it reinforced how idiotic it is to allow yahoos with personality disorders to walk around with loaded firearms.

    2
  14. Teve says:

    The right is trying desperately to make Rittenhouse a hero.

    Stupid people with shitty values.

    Over and over and over and over.

    4
  15. Jon says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Man, I hope you’re right.

    Also, saw that BJ post the other day; handsome batch of critters 🙂

  16. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Jon: I hope I’m right too. Thanx for the compliment. We’ve been lucky that way.

  17. Northerner says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Interesting though that it applies even when killing other whites — the two he killed were white men, as was the third he shot.

    I suspect the key element is that its okay to kill poor people of any race, include poor whites.

    3
  18. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Northerner: Well, they were with those people… It’s all good, as long as one is white and uses a gun.

    1
  19. KM says:

    @Northerner:
    “Protester” and “liberal” override “white” in their minds. To them, he didn’t kill some of them but rather category traitors, people who’ve offended their sense of natural order and thus deserve it. It’s why it was OK for Heather Heyer, a white woman, to be killed in a hit and run – she was out in the streets, demanding justice instead of agreeing with them.

    This is a major reason why I tell my white friends to not think these things will not affect them. Sure, we’ll never be profiled and shot in the back by cops like Blake….. but it’s entirely possible we might be murdered for standing up to right-wing nutjobs or for expecting America to not be a fascist police state. Maybe you don’t care about social justice or police brutality but you should certainly care that there are armed, racist, paranoid conspiracy freaks willing to take you out for not believing in what they do. People who think they’re “safe” because they live in suburbia or small towns, those who think they’re “safe” because they’re not a minority, those who think this will never happen to them….. just remember, as far as the nuts are concerned, you’re not one of them. You’re the Enemy and they will celebrate the “hero” that kills you. They can and will justify anything, including your death.

    5
  20. Kathy says:

    @Northerner:

    Not whites. N***r-loving race traitors.

    Even if they don’t say it aloud.

    5
  21. Teve says:

    Two years ago I got an a massive wreck outside Tallahassee. Totaled the van, was in ICU for most of the week, license suspended. Here in Florida the DMV moves incredibly slowly, and they finally decided to suspend my license for five years for a list of all kinds of misdemeanor reckless driving type moving violations.

    I can’t live here in the rural South without a license. I’m going to sell my car and get on a plane JAX to PDX with about $8k. I’ve vacationed in the PNW a few times, but contacts would be appreciated. Stevestory@protonmail.com

  22. Kathy says:

    I read yesterday that the mRNA vaccines, like Moderna’s and Pfizer’s, require ultra-low temperature storage.

    This could complicate distribution.

    Allegedly Moderna’s must be stored at -4 F, which is -20C in the rational system. That’s low, but not that hard to achieve. I think liquid nitrogen goes down to about -195C, and it’s neither hard to obtain nor outrageously expensive. There are also commercially available freezers that manage -40C. Dippin’ Dots ice cream, which is flash frozen, it’s stored at that temperature. If we can do this for mediocre ice cream, we can do it for life-saving vaccines.

    Pfizer’s requires -94F, which is around -70C, which is far lower, but well within the range of liquid nitrogen.

    But it does complicate things. This will be a very expensive vaccination campaign.

  23. Kylopod says:

    @KM:

    It’s why it was OK for Heather Heyer, a white woman, to be killed in a hit and run

    The Nazi camps included Aryans who were simply political dissidents (it’s what the classic movie The Search is about, before Hollywood mustered up the courage to do Holocaust movies that were actually about, you know, Jews). This is why James Fields was charged with a hate crime.

    1
  24. steve says:

    Liquid nitrogen is a lot of fun. If you ever want to impress the younger kids get some and make a batch of instant ice cream. Could also use dry ice. Which is also tons of fun. Soda bottle bomb are a hoot.

    Steve

    1
  25. Teve says:

    @steve: my thermodynamics prof had fun drinking a cup and spitting it out based on the whole liedenfrost effect. Not recommended. 😀

  26. Scott says:

    @Kathy: -4F is what my home refrigerator is set at. Depending on the salinity, the vaccine may not be frozen at all.

  27. Kathy says:

    @Scott:

    Check again. Home refrigerators are commonly at +4 Celsius, while freezers range to around -4 Celsius, though they can go as low as -10. (freezing point is 0 C) -4F is really, really cold.

  28. Jen says:

    I have been thinking for two days now about Kyle Rittenhouse’s mother. If she actually did drive him to the protest, I have questions. How responsible is she, since he’s a minor? What was she even THINKING?

    If I, at age 17, suggested to my mother that she drive me–with a weapon–to the middle of a protest, she would have grounded my butt for even asking.

    This kid has by his own actions wrecked his life. That’s not an understatement, regardless of the outcome, this is now going to follow him for the remainder of his life. And to think that a parent might have enabled this is baffling.

    9
  29. Scott says:

    @Kathy: You’re right, of course. Refrigerator (LG) outside display reads 37F (refrigerator)/-4F freezer. Clearly, it should read -4C. Never caught that clear error on the manufacturer’s part.

    1
  30. Slugger says:

    Two days ago we read about American soldiers injured in Syria due to Russian actions. https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/08/26/vehicle-collision-with-russians-injures-4-us-troops-in-syria/. This event has not been mentioned again. What happened? What is our response?

    4
  31. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Kathy: I had to go check. Thought so, -12F.

  32. Kathy says:

    @Scott:

    I suppose it’s possible the freezer could be that cold, but not likely. For common food preservation, you only need to be a bit below the freezing point. Lower temps are more like cryogenics.

    Home thermometers don’t read that low, but you can test it by pouring a small amount of a low proof liquor, like Irish creme, in a cup or dish, or ice cube tray, and placing it in the freezer. If it freezes through, then you’re at around -7C or lower. If you get slush, then it’s above.

    Some hasty research suggests I’m wrong and home freezers can be set to 0F, around -18C.

    I guess I’ll try to freeze some Bailey’s at home later.

    1
  33. Joe says:

    @Jen: While I find it hard to believe the story I, too, saw saying that Rittenhouse’s mother drove him to Kenosha. If true, that is an entirely separate WTF moment for the reasons you more articulately provide.

    Separate was the Kenosha cops handing out bottled water to un-uniformed vigilantes. How irresponsible/naive were these Kenosha cops assuming that any (white) guy with a gun was (a) on their side and (b) more likely to keep the peace than to foment a fight. Five bad decisions beyond that would come, “hey, how old are you anyway?”

    5
  34. Kathy says:

    @Jen:

    I don’t suppose it’s likely the mother can be charged as an accessory to the crime, but authorities should explore negligence and child endangerment.

    2
  35. gVOR08 says:

    @Joe:

    How irresponsible/naive were these Kenosha cops assuming that any (white) guy with a gun was (a) on their side and (b) more likely to keep the peace than to foment a fight.

    From what I see the Kenosha cops have a reputation, and it ain’t for naïveté. There are also stories they’ve been infiltrated by RW militia types, like many cop shops. They likely didn’t think past a). A lot of cops are deep into an us versus them mindset. Hence the blue line flag, and the Kenosha Police Chiefs comments about the victims wouldn’t have gotten shot if they’d respected the curfew and my authority.

    4
  36. CSK says:

    @Jen:
    That struck me as well. It seems to be unclear if she drove him, although he apparently wasn’t old enough to drive himself. If she did drive him, wouldn’t that make her an accessory before the fact?

    He looks as if he’s about twelve years old.

    2
  37. gVOR08 says:

    @Kathy: I see no reason she shouldn’t be charged as an accessory for driving him to the scene. Presumably she also drove him home, aiding his flight. As always, IANAL, and there’ll be the usual defense that she’s suffered enough.

    1
  38. Bob@Youngstown says:

    Missus and I enjoyed TV last night – watched ‘Little Women’ on DVD. (just couldn’t stomach the garbage from the White House)

    1
  39. Mikey says:

    @Slugger: Trump probably apologized to Putin and offered to pay Russia for the damage to their vehicle.

    1
  40. gVOR08 says:

    @Jen:

    This kid has by his own actions wrecked his life. That’s not an understatement, regardless of the outcome

    One of the reasons I oppose the death penalty is that I’m mean enough to want to deprive him of a quick martyrdom for the cause and leave him contemplating for sixty years what he did to his life. For which, see the picture Erik Loomis uses for some of his criminal justice posts (and worth reading the post).

    3
  41. Kathy says:

    @gVOR08:

    There’s a question of intent. The terrorist probably didn’t set out to kill anyone, nor would he have told his mother if he had. the mother might not have known he’d shot and killed people when driving him back, either.

    But driving an armed child to a protest is anti-parenting. If she has other children, perhaps they should be removed and placed under a saner guardianship.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the terrorist’s parents are white supremacists themselves, and even proud of their boy.

    2
  42. SC_Birdflyte says:

    House of Bourbon, House of Romanov, . . . House of Trump? Who’s to say it can’t happen here?

  43. CSK says:

    @Kathy:
    She’s a single mother, and as far as I know has no other kids.

    1
  44. Kathy says:

    @CSK:

    Good. that means there’s no barrier for charging her with neglect and endangerment.

    1
  45. Michael Cain says:

    @Kathy: At -94 °F you’re getting down into the range where material properties change. Stuff gets brittle. Things that provided gas-tight seals don’t. The companies that are saying they can gear up to provide an extra billion vials for vaccines are not equipped to produce stuff that’s good to -94. And if it requires going colder than that… well, many of us have seen the demonstration where you dip a rose into liquid nitrogen, than tap it against a hard surface and it shatters.

    1
  46. CSK says:

    @Kathy:
    The WaPo seems to think he drove himself.
    Also, he tried to join the Marines last January, but was rejected.

  47. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Kathy: He broke a number of laws just being there with a firearm. She aided and abetted him in the commission of those crimes and the results are on her at least as much as him.

    I happen to think even more so than him. I also happen to think at 17, he should not have to live the rest of his life in prison after people allowed him to put himself in a situation he was in no way mature enough or emotionally stable enough to handle. He obviously spent too much time on line listening to the wrong people and quite likely with the encouragement of his mother.

    I think he is a victim too, one who is fortunately still breathing, and would like think he is a saveable human.

  48. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @gVOR08:

    On Wednesday, prosecutors said they had moved to free Mr. DuBoise by filing a joint motion with his lawyer to reduce his life sentence to time served.

    Time served? Not innocent? Because *I suppose*, he can’t prove he wasn’t there? You know who else can’t prove they weren’t there? The prosecutors.

    **it’s the usual reason given when in reality they are trying to avoid a wrongful incarceration lawsuit.

    2
  49. Jen says:

    @CSK: Yeah, that’s why I qualified my question–there do seem to be reports out there that she drove him, while others definitely state that he drove himself. She isn’t speaking to the media (wise, and probably on advice from counsel).

    1
  50. wr says:

    @Kathy: “I don’t suppose it’s likely the mother can be charged as an accessory to the crime, but authorities should explore negligence and child endangerment.”

    I don’t know what criminal penalties she might face, but she might want to start thinking about transferring all her assets to some nice place that has incredibly strict laws about bank secrecy. Because there are at least three huge civil suits lining up to say hello.

    4
  51. CSK says:

    @wr:
    She probably has nothing much in the way of assets: she’s a nurse’s assistant and she and her son live in an apartment.

    1
  52. Kathy says:

    @Michael Cain:

    I’m usually disappointed by such demos, because the rose more crumbles than shatters.

    There are containers to transport things chilled with liquid nitrogen, which also prevent the nitrogen from evaporating too quickly. We used them at a cord-blood bank I worked at briefly. Usually they stay cool enough for days.

    But, yes, you have to be careful and people need to know how to handle such things.

  53. Northerner says:

    @Kathy:

    Not whites. N***r-loving race traitors.

    They’re pretty happy to kill any poor white. Take a look at the number of whites killed by police. Care to guess how many of them weren’t poor?

    Soro’s (the billionaire) is a N***r-loving race traitor. Do you think Rittenhouse would have walked away if he’d killed him? How about if he’d killed some white congressman or senator who was supportive of BLM? Killing influential whites is considered bad, even if the rich whites have the wrong politics. Killing poor whites (of any politics) has always been fine. Always easy to get a replacement. Its like the essential workers in the pandemic — whatever their race its not worth protecting them, because if you’re poor enough to have to go to those jobs then you’re not important enough to care about.

    3
  54. Northerner says:

    @KM:

    I’d say poor all by itself overrides white in their minds. Poor whites have been killed by other whites long before race became an issue anywhere (ie thousands of years ago), and it usually wasn’t that big a deal, because the poor have always been vermin. Killing a white with wealth and influence on the other hand has always been different, because those were real people.

    That’s not just an American thing, its been a constant through-out history. The poor are expendable.

    1
  55. Kylopod says:

    @Northerner:

    Soro’s (the billionaire) is a N***r-loving race traitor.

    He’s also a Jew. The conspiracy theories about him are loaded with classical anti-Semitic tropes.

    It’s always been interesting to me that whenever people discuss the Mississippi Burning case, they tend not to emphasize the fact that one of the men was black and the other two were Jews. You’d think that would be pretty relevant to their being lynched. Instead, the focus is on the fact that they were all civil-rights activists involved in getting blacks registered to vote. In the minds of racists, sometimes what you do for a group they hate is more important than whether you are a member of said group.

    In point of fact, much of the relationship between white supremacy and anti-Semitism rests on the notion that Jews are the ones “helping” people of color. Among other things, that was the basis of the 2018 synagogue shooting. And this theme isn’t new–it was one of the core beliefs of the Nazis.

    6
  56. Gustopher says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I happen to think even more so than him. I also happen to think at 17, he should not have to live the rest of his life in prison after people allowed him to put himself in a situation he was in no way mature enough or emotionally stable enough to handle.

    I think he is a victim too, one who is fortunately still breathing, and would like think he is a saveable human.

    There are a lot of people who barely get a first chance in this world. I’m more worried about them getting a fair first chance than I am about this kid getting a second chance. He’s a right wing murderer.

    Any effort or money spent on saving this little shit would likely better be spent on helping a food bank. Just a better, surer return on the investment.

    I’m letting my engineer-brain show again aren’t I? I mean, yes, the kid is a victim, but realistically if he’s going to be saved he’s going to have to do a lot of work, and the way he is being lionized on the right… I think it’s much more likely he will feel like an indignant martyr to the cause.

    3
  57. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:I assume that it’s possible that within the jurisdiction in which he lives, he can’t be found not guilty without a new trial–which means finding a judge who will be willing to hear the case and the possibility that if the jury convicts him again anyway, he won’t get released.

    1
  58. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @CSK: I was going to note that it was likely that her assets would probably fit in a Dixie cup, but you beat me to it.

    1
  59. gVOR08 says:

    @Bill: So the judge he appointed was not eligible at the time she was appointed but the court will let the appointment stand. And what lesson do we expect Governor DeUseless will take from this?

  60. CSK says:

    Jen and Sleeping Dog:
    You must be sooooooo excited about the Trump rally in Londonderry this evening. I hear the crowds are already assembling.

    You have to sign a waiver absolving Donald of all responsibility if you contract Covid-19.

    1
  61. flat earth luddite says:

    @gVOR08:
    and of course, the voice in my head heard the “Respect my authority” in the voice of Cartman from South Park.

    Idiot child + irresponsible parent + incompetent law enforcement = Ginormous WTF.

  62. flat earth luddite says:

    @Gustopher:
    The other factor to remember is that, WHEN he is incarcerated, he will be surrounded by, lauded by, and generally groomed up by the rabid Aryan brotherhood-ish groups in prison. Juvenile, adult, it won’t matter. Unless there’s a miracle, this boy’s going to come out WAY more right-wing then when he goes in.

  63. Northerner says:

    @Kylopod:

    In point of fact, much of the relationship between white supremacy and anti-Semitism rests on the notion that Jews are the ones “helping” people of color. Among other things, that was the basis of the 2018 synagogue shooting. And this theme isn’t new–it was one of the core beliefs of the Nazis.

    That’s kind of interesting, though a bit counter-intuitive. Anti-Semitism has very old roots in Europe, going back to Ancient Greece according to Wikipedia — the Nazi’s were only the latest in a very long line of pogrom’s and persecution. How many non-white people were in Europe at that time for the Jews to help?

    Beyond that, the tie in between today’s white supremacist’s and the Nazi’s is curious — I wonder how many of today’s neo-Nazi’s would have been considered white by Hitler? Certainly none with any Slavic heritage, and I don’t think he considered the French or Italians white either. He did like the English though, and the Scandinavians. The definition of every race (including) white is very flexible — Asians are now being considered “white” in terms of diversity in high tech firms.

    1
  64. CSK says:

    @Northerner:
    I’m not sure about the English. According to The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich,Hitler did consider the Irish to be Aryans. Second class Aryans, to be sure, but Aryans.

  65. Northerner says:

    @Gustopher:

    That is the classic (once conservative but apparently now also held by many liberals) line against trying to rehabilitate any murder. Its interesting how different people come to the same conclusion (rehabilitation doesn’t work and isn’t worth the effort even if it does) from opposing directions.

    I’ve known a couple of rehabilitated murderers, so I disagree. But that’s only anecdotal evidence, and I don’t pretend to be unbiased — I find both to be good persons now.

    1
  66. Kathy says:

    @Northerner:

    Anti-Semitism has very old roots in Europe, going back to Ancient Greece according to Wikipedia

    Jewish religious practices in ancient times were similar to pagan practices. Prayers and animal sacrifices and offerings of treasure (gold, jewels, fine fabrics, etc.) in honor of their god.

    The main difference, and this would have rubbed some pagans the wrong way, is that Jews would not worship any gods but their one, abstract deity*. Pagans weren’t so picky, often adopting foreign gods, or merging them with their own (syncretism), and offering worship to the local gods in foreign lands. Alexander’s technique for winning over conquered peoples began with great shows of piety for their local deities at their temples or sanctuaries.

    When the Romans began deifying their dead emperors, and requiring their worship in all Roman provinces, they made an exception in Judea. The locals were allowed to offer prayers and sacrifices to Jehovah in the name of Caesar, rather than to Caesar. In other places, it wasn’t an issue.

    It became one among the early Christians, but that’s another story.

    Point is the Jews stood out from others, wherever they went. We know what the majority thinks of a minority that is different.

    *There is archaeological evidence of worship of foreign godas alongside Jehovah here and there in Temples in Judea, as late as Alexander’s time. It’s not known how widespread the practice was.

    3
  67. Kylopod says:

    @Northerner:

    That’s kind of interesting, though a bit counter-intuitive. Anti-Semitism has very old roots in Europe, going back to Ancient Greece according to Wikipedia — the Nazi’s were only the latest in a very long line of pogrom’s and persecution. How many non-white people were in Europe at that time for the Jews to help?

    While anti-Semitism has ancient roots as you point out, the Nazi version of anti-Semitism was a virulent racial form that differed from its predecessors in its insistence that there was no way Jews could ever assimilate–that their Jewishness was carried in their very genes, so the only solution (the Final Solution) was to wipe them off the face of the earth. This was a very modern take on Jew-hatred that emerged in conjunction with white supremacist ideology in general. While there weren’t that many black people in Europe at the time, the Nazis talked heavily about their hatred of blacks, and they frequently identified themselves with American racists. Hitler is quoted as having said (obviously a rough translation from German), “Everything about the behavior of American society reveals that it’s half Judaized, and the other half Negrified.” The Nazis actually studied Jim Crow when they crafted the Nuremberg Laws.

    The Nazi attitude is summed up in an old propaganda cartoon featuring a racist caricature of a black saxophonist, with a Star of David on his lapel, and the caption “Entartete Musik”–degenerate music. The Nazis believed that both America and Europe were being polluted by the influence of nonwhite people–and that it was the Jews’ fault. After all, Jews were the ones bankrolling all that jazz garbage, and advocating for black civil rights.

    You see many of these same themes popping up among neo-Nazis today. In 2009 an elderly neo-Nazi tried to shoot up DC’s Holocaust museum (he killed a black security guard before being shot down himself). He had authored a book arguing that Jews were conspiring to destroy the white race. The 2018 Pittsburgh shooter was triggered by the caravan of migrants that the Trump Admin was making a big deal about at the time–but he blamed the Jews for it. Trump and other Republicans more or less did the same thing when they claimed without evidence that Soros was funding the caravan.

    While there are corners of the white supremacist world today that attempt to downplay anti-Semitism and even make alliances with certain racist Jews like Stephen Miller, anti-Semitism is still a major part of the movement. Jews are always cast in the role of conspirators–the ones helping all those “degenerate” races (who are presumed to lack enough agency of their own to be morally culpable). When Tucker Carlson earlier this year accused Jared Kushner of attempting to “subvert” Trump, he was simply echoing a claim that white supremacists have been making for years (David Duke said the same thing in 2017). I haven’t otherwise seen any evidence of Carlson being specifically anti-Jewish, but he has a long pattern of parroting the talking points of white supremacist groups, and that remark was yet another example of it.

    It gets really complicated when it comes to the Trump Admin, and it’s understandable why so many people are confused. How can Trump be anti-Semitic if his daughter and son-in-law are Jews, and he surrounds himself with Jews, and he’s made a closer pact with Israel’s Likud than any other US president ever has? And yet there’s a reason why he gets so much support from white supremacists who hate Jews as well as people of color. He checks enough boxes that they still see him as an ally. And it’s why you get many right-wing Jews themselves (such as Bibi Netanyahu’s son) engaging in anti-Soros rhetoric despite its anti-Semitic nature. There’s this weird symbiotic relationship that’s developed between the Jewish right and the anti-Semitic right that can be hard to decipher if you aren’t familiar with the history.

    4
  68. KM says:

    @Northerner:

    How many non-white people were in Europe at that time for the Jews to help?

    Ummmm, the Greeks and Romans weren’t “white” until this century. They were the “civilized” nations, which is what “white” is code for in those slanders. To answer your question, A LOT considering the definition of “White” didn’t include groups like Italians, Gauls, Irish (Celts), Poles, Slavs, etc. until recently. Hell, “Greek” was barely a thing since they’d consider Athens to be ethnically different from Sparta or Delphi.

    Americans have a rather different definition of “White” due to us being a melting pot; as you noted, quite a few white supremacists in America would absolutely not be considered Aryan by their OG mentors. That’s why they say stupid things like “I’m European-American” like there are over 20 different ethnic groups there that would not lump themselves together. In America, “White” means your skin tone, not your heritage – how else could “passing” exist as a racial concept?

    2
  69. Gustopher says:

    @Northerner: I don’t think that rehabilitation is impossible, just that this kid is a really, really low priority.

    Below feeding people, making sure they stay in their homes, and making sure they have healthcare and education. Below trying to reduce the number of kids who end up in a shitty spot in life to start with.

    If people want to coddle this little shit, and call for mercy and are willing to back it up with general reform, including for drug-possession and non-violent offenders, rather than making this little shit an exception… Sure.

    But no one wants that. They see a white kid who got in the wrong crowd (right wing bugaboos), and ruined his life and see that as a waste. He ruined a lot more than his own life, though.

    And, in an era where we have had people killing protesters, and trying to kill protesters, I would worry that leniency of any kind now would send a very dangerous message. In an era where his actions are being praised, we cannot afford to send that message. This little shit isn’t worth it. If this little shit turns his life around and earns a second chance, by all means we should reassess later.

    Our Hillbilly friend from the Ozarks feels compassion for this child, and that’s commendable. Compassion is not a limited resource, and more people should realize that. But almost everything else is a limited resource.

    3
  70. KM says:

    @Northerner :
    Rehabilitation or atonement requires repentance and acknowledgement of being wrong. You can’t be rehabilitated if you think you didn’t do anything wrong and will not apologize for your actions. There is no ethical or moral system in the world that posits rehabilitation is possible without first addressing what caused the need for rehabilitation in the first place.

    This kid isn’t sorry. He killed and so far has shown no regrets. No one is telling him to show humility for what he has done but rather are holding him up as some folk hero. They’re cheering his killings and helping him try to get away with it. I doubt he’s truly regretful- at best, he’ll regret getting caught and having to face the consequences of his actions. He won’t plead guilty, he won’t admit he was wrong to kill. Until he does, he’s not worth the effort to care – save your concern for his victims. Let him face justice and live with what he’s done. If he decides to reach out in remorse, then we’ll talk.

    5
  71. Gustopher says:

    @KM:

    In America, “White” means your skin tone, not your heritage – how else could “passing” exist as a racial concept?

    Except, most everyone who is passing fears being found out. They want the benefits of the in-group and are willing to cast aside their heritage, culture and nature to do it. The one-drop rule was active until relatively recently. You don’t graduate to White once your skin is a certain shade, heritage and values are a very large part of it.

    Passing is the equivalent of gays being in the closet. It’s sad, and depressing that people need to do so in order to avoid hatred and discrimination.

    (There was a paper a bunch of years ago, interpreting Gatsby of The Great Gatsby as a light-skinned black man who was passing for white, and that this was his shady past, not how he got his money. It’s a really nice interpretation as it changes all of the casual racism in the novel from randomly inserted offensive racism into actually serving the story)

  72. Northerner says:

    @Kathy:
    @Kylopod:
    @KM:

    Thanks. I always assumed anti-Semitism was largely the Christ-Killer accusation. There’s obviously much more to it than that.

    1
  73. Northerner says:

    @Gustopher:

    Low priority does seem to be one of the normal reasons put forward for not bothering with rehabilitation. Still, its better (in my biased view) than thinking its impossible. As I said, I personally know a couple of murderers who’ve been rehabilitated, and I’m glad our system (Canada) thought it worth while.

    People can change, especially from what they were in their youth.

  74. Northerner says:

    @KM:

    Most murderers (or so I’m told) don’t initially think what they did was wrong — it’s usually either directly planned or highly likely in something they were doing (otherwise, at least in Canada, it’d be manslaughter rather than murder). Part of the rehabilitation process is bringing them to the point where they do regret their actions (as opposed to regretting being caught).

    That seems to apply to Rittenhouse (who I think fits into the “highly likely” category of murder) as much as to any other murderer.

  75. JohnSF says:

    @Northerner:
    Nazi racial classification was totally screwed up technically; and known to be at the time.

    I remember reading back in the 70’s a book in the collection of a friends family.
    I cannot for the life of me remember the title, but it was a a work on early history, prehistory, archaeology and anthropology.
    And published in the 1930’s.
    Maybe Vere Gordon Childe? There were books by him in the collection, but simply can’t recall if it was one.

    Anyway, it referred to the Indo-European language group, that it was primarily a linguistic and secondly a cultural classification, and in passing made scathing comments about German National Socialist uses of the concept of “Aryan”, aka Indo-European.

    Pointing out that by any reasonable linguistic or other standard, the group included Persian a.k.a. Iranians (Iran being a direct linguistic derivative of “arya”); also Sanskrit speaking components of Indian cultures, also Slavic, also Celtic, Balt, Hellenic, Illyrian, Latin and Italic, Alan, Tocharian, Anatolian, Armenian etc.

    Using “Aryan” just to mean the “Teutonic-Scandinavian” sub-group was ridiculous; IIRC the authors words were something like “If one means German, one might as well say German.”

    1
  76. Sleeping Dog says:

    @CSK:

    It seems that the Former Reality Show Host’s rally was, ah hem, tiny. Boston Globe reports ‘hundreds’ of attendees and my bride saw a report specifying 500.

  77. JohnSF says:

    Oh and this is nice.
    “France sets red lines with Turkey in eastern Mediterranean”

    Might be a good idea for someone to bring this to the attention of the President of the United…

    oh buggerit.

  78. Jim Brown 32 says:

    @CSK: This is what fatherless households breeds–Thugs

    Lock him up snd throw away the key

    1
  79. Mister Bluster says:

    @JohnSF:..“France sets red lines with Turkey in eastern Mediterranean”

    Bad Link

    1
  80. Kathy says:

    @JohnSF:

    Thank you for calling the White House. If you want to talk with Donald Trump, press 1. If you want to talk to a real president, please stay on the line until January 2021.

  81. gVOR08 says:

    @Bob@Youngstown:

    Missus and I enjoyed TV last night – watched ‘Little Women’ on DVD. (just couldn’t stomach the garbage from the White House)

    Thank gawd for the Tennis Channel and Cincinnati’s Western and Southern tennis tournament. It’s being played without fans and in New York. It’s really weird to see a great shot with no crowd reaction. Or have the name of the match winner announced and hear like the coach and three other people clapping. But way, way better than Trump’s superspreader, death of the Hatch Act festival.

  82. gVOR08 says:

    @Northerner:

    I wonder how many of today’s neo-Nazi’s would have been considered white by Hitler? Certainly none with any Slavic heritage

    IIRC the Nazis had a program for German families to adopt blond, blue eyed Polish children to be raised as “aryan”, as there was a shortage of blond, blue eyed Germans.

  83. SC_Birdflyte says:

    @Northerner: I’ve also known rehabilitated murderers. But they wanted to be rehabilitated.

  84. @Scott: I have an LG refrigerator as well and so all this convo made me curious, so I put a thermometer in my freezer. Mine is set at -6 F and, indeed, the thermometer shows that temp (just shy of -20 C).

  85. Northerner says:

    @SC_Birdflyte:

    So did the ones I know. But they’ve said it took some time (I think years) of rehabilitation to get to that point. If they wanted to be rehabilitated at the time they did the murder they wouldn’t have done the murder in the first place.

    That’s the whole point of rehabilitation. It takes someone who has done a crime (including murder, the worst crime) without remorse, and teaches them compassion and remorse.