Thanksgiving Eve Forum

Steven L. Taylor
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor of Political Science and a College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog). Follow Steven on Twitter


  1. OzarkHillbilly says:

    10 more gone, this time in Chesapeake VA. Can’t you just feel the freedom?

  2. OzarkHillbilly says:

    US turkey shortages and rising prices add extra stress to Thanksgiving

    A long outbreak of avian flu has infected millions of turkeys ahead of the holiday season. The virus was first detected in Indiana in February, and has infected chickens and turkeys in at least 46 states, reported PBS News. The avian flu has also affected poultry in Europe and Canada. By late October, more than 6 million turkeys in the US had died as a result of bird flu, 3% of national turkey production, reported the Washington Post. Turkey farmers say their flocks have either died outright of the virus or been euthanized to prevent infection.

    I blame Biden.

  3. Jen says:

    Something to be thankful for… 😀

    Judge Upholds $49 Million Verdict Against Alex Jones, Despite Cap
    A Texas judge said on Tuesday that she would order the Infowars fabulist Alex Jones to pay the entire $49 million verdict a jury had awarded to the parents of a Sandy Hook school shooting victim, despite a Texas law capping punitive damages at far less than the amount jurors had allotted.

  4. Sleeping Dog says:

    As Thanksgiving approaches, I recalled that Minneapolis sports writer, Pat Reusse, has a decades long tradition of handing out the “Turkey of the Year” award. Nomination and receipt isn’t considered an honor. Years ago he decided that the Turkey needed a name, given that a certain running back had flamed out on arrival in Minnesota and was an obtuse idiot, it seemed fitting that the player would lend his name as the “Turkey’s” moniker, thus the Turkey of the Year, became the Herschel.

  5. CSK says:

    Swell. I just love waking up to news like this.

    I hope Jones is hounded till he dies.

    @Sleeping Dog:

  6. Michael Cain says:

    Unless there was a huge rush on turkeys yesterday, or one today, our local supermarkets are going to be having serious sales on birds this weekend. The frozen birds were stacked high enough that the ones on top had to be thawing already.

  7. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Michael Cain: I remember reading last year that the morons on Fox were blaming Biden for a turkey shortage. On one of my trips to Wally world the turkeys were similarly stacked. So, yeah. Much ado about nothing. I was half expecting the bird flu to have an effect but it won’t surprise me in the least if this year is a repeat. I am not fond of turkey anyway.

  8. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @CSK: Hey now, can’t you at least show a little appreciation for your freedom and thank the NRA?

  9. Mister Bluster says:

    Happy Thanksgiving from my local Mickey D’s!
    Senior Coffee now 99¢ tax inc. up from 88¢ tax inc.
    Reminds me of when Zig Zags went up from a nickel to a dime a pack in ’69.
    That damn near broke me.

  10. daryl and his brother darryl says:

    @Mister Bluster:
    Ha – you must have been toking at Snoop-Dog, or Willie Nelson, levels for that extra nickel to break you!!!

  11. Sleeping Dog says:

    @Michael Cain:

    My wife went out to buy whipping cream yesterday and couldn’t find it at 2 stores and spoke to a woman that had looked in 3 without success. Turkey’s, I don’t know.

  12. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Put off by Elon Musk’s muscular management style? Move to us! That’s the pitch being used by talent-starved technology firms trying to lure thousands of former Twitter employees laid off by the social media company under its new owner.

    Twitter has fired top executives and enforced steep job cuts with little warning following Musk’s tumultuous takeover of the social media platform. About half of the workforce – around 3,700 employees – has been laid off. Hundreds more are reported to have quit as a result of his sweeping reforms. On Monday, the head of French operations was the latest senior manager to leave.

    Spying opportunity, some companies are now trying to pick up experienced engineering talent by appealing to their disdain for the methods of the world’s richest person.

    Katie Burke, chief people officer at US software company HubSpot, condemned Musk over reports he had fired a group of employees that had criticized him on the company’s internal Slack channels. Reuters was not able to verify the reports.

    “As a leader, getting criticized is part of your job,” she wrote in a LinkedIn post. “Great leaders recognize debate and disagreement makes you better and is part of the process. If you want a place where you can disagree (in a kind, clear manner of course) with people, HubSpot is hiring.”
    Twitter and Musk did not respond to requests for comment.

    Gee… Who’da thunk it?

  13. Mister Bluster says:

    @daryl and his brother toke over the line
    As I recall four of us alleged college students lived in a 2 bedroom house owned by one of the local slumlords. $100/month split 4 ways plus utilities. A lid of weed (1 oz.) was $20 and a gram of hashish was 7$. Acid was $5 a hit. In those days the weed wasn’t near as good as today so you had to roll fat joints and smoke them down to the roach to get a good buzz. The hash was better but not always available. The acid was psychedelic!

    We had our creed on the living room wall:
    Dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope. —Freewheelin’ Franklin.

  14. Jax says:

    @Sleeping Dog: I’ve checked at three stores for heavy whipping cream and can’t find it, either.

  15. Jen says:

    I’m sort of stunned, but realize that I probably shouldn’t be–that we’ve had another mass shooting in this country (Virginia Walmart, in case you’re wondering *which* mass shooting) and it has become so routine that no one on my FB feed has even mentioned it.

  16. Jen says:

    @Sleeping Dog: There’s been an ongoing heavy cream shortage in New Hampshire for a while. No idea what’s causing it, but this goes back *months*.

  17. MarkedMan says:

    @Michael Cain: I just read somewhere that turkeys for next year’s thanksgiving are already headed to the deep freeze so if this bird flu is going to cause a shortage it will be for 2023.

  18. charon says:

    A correction here:

    Yesterday, there was an argument in a thread about something Steve M. posted at his site. But – the argument was about something very different than what he had said. What was actually said was that after a contested nomination, with all the acrimony and so forth, if DeSantis won, Trump would not take revenge by continuing to attack him.

    That might or might be true, Trump has been known to do revenge, but that is not what was argued yesterday.


    Politico’s Michael Kruse spoke to Rick Wilson, who believes (as many people do) that Donald Trump will set out to destroy the Republican Party if Ron DeSantis beats him in the 2024 primaries.

    The quote from Politico:

    “Let’s say you beat him. Let’s say you whip his ass so bad in every debate. Let’s say he shits the bed in every debate and DeSantis is articulate and brilliant and funny and does all the things that you would need to do to convince primary voters. Let’s say that happens,” Wilson told me. “What,” Wilson asked, “does Donald Trump do?”

    “I know what he doesn’t do,” I said. “He doesn’t disappear.”

    “Correct,” said Wilson. And here, he added, is what else Trump doesn’t do: “Donald Trump says, ‘I was beaten, fair and square, by this brilliant young man, Ron DeSantis. I believe that he is the future of our party and our country. I look forward to doing everything I can to ensure that he is elected president in 2024. And because of that I’m turning over my email lists and my political operations to do whatever I can to help him win.’”

    Maybe you don’t accept the Steve M. reasoning but here is part of it:

    One reason Trump didn’t do this is that — like your grandparents in Florida — he watches Fox News hours a day and, as a result, believes Democrats are pure evil. He’s not going to help one win, even to get back at an enemy.

    But the main reason Trump didn’t do this is that his obsession is making himself look like a winner. Dragging an enemy down doesn’t accomplish that.

    Personally, I would expect Trump, after a loss, would also be looking for how to continue harvesting donations for himself.

  19. MarkedMan says:

    @charon: I’m pretty sure Trump has no opinions about Democrats, Republicans, or any other party. Trump has opinions about individuals. He is for anyone, and I mean anyone, who says nice things about him. He is moderately against people who say bad things about him, but this is offset by the fact that they are paying attention to him. What we are talking about here is what happens when he loses. There is a bit of a history there, in that when he still had his father’s money he got a lot of schemes going (casinos, airline, football team among others) and they all failed spectacularly. As each went down in flames he turned on his partners and trashed them, but then went off into the wilderness for a time and when he came back it was as if those ventures never happened. He never talks about them or the people involved.

    But I realize that isn’t an exact match. After all, in those instances although he failed, no one else won. In an election it is zero sum game with clear winners and losers. It’s hard to say how he will react in that case.

  20. OzarkHillbilly says:


    But the main reason Trump didn’t do this is that his obsession is making himself look like a winner. Dragging an enemy down doesn’t accomplish that.

    Maybe Steve M was never bullied. It might not make trump a winner but it will make DeSantis a loser, and that’s better than nothing.

  21. CSK says:

    @charon: @MarkedMan:

    I agree with MarkedMan about Trump not having any opinions about any political party. As I said yesterday, he doesn’t hate Democrats. He has no feeling about them other than that they’re obstacles to be shoved out of his way.

  22. becca says:

    Just two of us for dinner this year. Kids will be in MS with SIL family.
    My instacart shopper was a huge disappointment. Paid for sweet potatoes and pumpkin, but did not receive. 20% tip, too. Harrumph.
    Doing game hens with the trimmings. Big question is do I forgo the one pumpkin pie I make a year or settle for lemon chess? Do I roast carrots instead of yams?
    Whatever I decide, hope y’all have a great day!

  23. CSK says:

    @Sleeping Dog: @Jax: @Jen:

    Apparently heavy cream is in short supply everywhere in the country. Here’s the situation in Massachusetts:

  24. CSK says:


    If you call Instacart or email or text them, they should give you a refund for the missing items.

    I’d do glazed carrots with the hens, roasted potatoes, and string beans parboiled and finished in a frying pan with garlic and butter.

  25. becca says:

    @Mister Bluster: I still have some R Crumb Motor City Comics. Love me some old Mr Natural.

  26. Arnold Stang says:

    And the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, with Fat Freddie’s Cat comics along the bottom.

  27. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    @Mister Bluster:
    Oh jeez, that was a hard flashback for me! And thanks!!

  28. becca says:

    @CSK: I did just that and a refund is coming.
    Usually I do green beans, but this year is braised kale because we love it with garlic mashed potatoes and I have no children to placate this year. I like to roast whole carrots until they start to release the sugars. No need for glazing and they look good on the plate.
    Btw, I have 2 qts of heavy cream, in case anyone needs a cup or two.

  29. CSK says:


    Glad you got the refund. They seem to be very good about that.

    Your planned meal sounds quite toothsome. I don’t mean to suggest the following for tomorrow, but have you ever roasted hens, carrots, and potatoes together? It saves on pan-washing and looks awfully attractive on a platter.

  30. Stormy Dragon says:

    I’d actually prefer a roasted chicken for thanksgiving because frankly turkey is ass, but that’s apparently sacrilege. ;P

  31. becca says:

    @CSK: I roast a chicken with potatoes, carrots and onion every month or so. I make hash with the leftovers, Barbra Kafka style. Highly recommend.

  32. Rick Smith says:

    @Stormy Dragon: My wife and I have done duck a couple times. The last couple years it’s been Puerto Rican cuisine. We are not turkey fans, and turkey is usually too much for 2 people anyway.

  33. Stormy Dragon says:

    @Rick Smith:

    Very few people are really turkey fans. Other than sandwich meat, how often do you see turkey other than Thanksgiving?

  34. DAllenABQ says:

    @Mister Bluster: This is why I enjoy lurking at this site. A reference to the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers. Wish I held on to those comic books.

  35. gVOR08 says:

    The flap about Alito leaking the Hobby Lobby opinion answered a question I’ve been curious about, how does the Federalist Society handle the justices they get appointed? You can hardly tell a SCOTUS justice – Charlie here is your minder, ask him if you’re not sure what we want. But after you’ve spent millions grooming them and getting them appointed, are you going to trust them to do the right thing (as Chuckles Koch sees it) or try to get some insurance. Saw a guy yesterday call it the Federalist judicial puppy mill.

    The FS talks a lot about community and support network, but they’re going to want something more direct. Alito provides an example. It’s like the old advice that you shouldn’t marry for money; you should associate with rich women and fall in love. You put a lot of effort and money into surrounding the justices with wealthy, like minded, “friends”. Not terribly efficient, but Koch et al can afford it.

    I wonder if Alito understands he’s well liked like dogs like the kid with a pork chop hung around his neck.

  36. Kathy says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    c. 2006, turkey legs were popular at Disney World.

    The local supermarkets sometimes have turkey breast, legs, ground turkey, etc., but you can’t count on it. Mostly you see it processed beyond recognition in ham-like slices, or hot dogs.

  37. CSK says:

    OTB is like Alice’s Restaurant. You can get anything you want here. Recipes, debates about cosmic issues, competing exegeses of Star Trek OS, personal reminiscences, travel tips…

  38. CSK says:


    I love real turkey, but that processed stuff I’d swallow only to avoid torture.

  39. Mu Yixiao says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    Other than sandwich meat, how often do you see turkey other than Thanksgiving?

    Ground turkey (turkey burger) is very popular. We could barely keep it on the shelf when I was working in the meat dept a few years ago.

  40. CSK says:

    Four students leaving a Phillie high school after early dismissal for the holiday were shot today.

    As I said earlier, swell.

  41. de stijl says:

    Yesterday I shared what it felt like being a campus security guard while also a student. Today, behind the scenes.

    When I got hired on I got a shirt. That’s it. No more, no less. A stupid ass white shirt with those epaulets and the offset black chest pockets, not the entire chest pocket just the top flap. I tried it on at home and I looked like a dork and an asshole.

    The requirement was the super dorky shirt and gray pants and black shoes and black socks. In order to be a security guard you have to look like a security guard. Them’s the rules.

    I had black socks, I had black shoes (good old Doc Marten’s with the padded collar.) I had no gray pants. Wait a minute I have g.i. issue khakis aplenty, there is a fabric store just down the street with dye on sale.

    I got this!. I did not get this at all. In fact, I permanently ruined a perfectly good 50 year old claw foot cast iron, porcelain clad bathtub.

    My girlfriend was so pissed and disgusted at me for the lame attempt at dying. The dye didn’t even take properly and I’d basically ruined a nice pair of vintage khakis and an entire bathtub. She was correct, it was a stupid thing to do and I was being an idiot.

    Plan B. Go to the vintage clothing store and buy some gray pants. I had to buy a suit vintage maybe late 30s early forties. In that range. Pleated, awesome slacks, and most importantly they fit and they were gray.

    My boss, the titular head of campus security was an absolute joke and, frankly, an idiot. He was obviously a drunk. Super-duper obviously that dude was a raging alcoholic. A retired cop. A retired cop not from St. Paul or Minneapolis PD, a retired cop from the ‘burbs.

    He was a fool. He was my boss. He worked 8 to 5 and not one minute more. One night a party at Manor House was getting slightly out of control and Elizabeth asked if we should maybe call Don. Everyone laughed at the thought. Yeah, no.

    The day shift was all on Don to run and he had a coterie of ex cops and some wannabes on duty. Assholes, everyone of them.

    At night, when shit actually happened, we were left up to our devices. There were a handful of second or third year folks on hand to guide us, thankfully. We mostly made it up as we went along.

    Initially there were strong unstated rules about gender and roles. Boys patrolled and girls manned the radio. I thought that was pretty stupid and decided to mix things up. Girls on patrol and boys on the radio for one night – an experiment.

    I’m not dumb. I paired them up boy-girl, boy-girl and I would run the radio tonight. Is that patriarchal? Sexist? I wanted to make sure the women were safe.

    Besides, I think a pair of people in a team is more effective and certainly safer.

    A colleague of mine and I developed a romantic feeling, then a relationship. Elizabeth, I mentioned her earlier. We weren’t exactly girlfriend / boyfriend, but we were more likely than not headed down that path towards that. I really, really liked her and I think she liked me, too.

    Elizabeth went home to visit her parents and siblings. She never came back. She died in a car accident in northern Virginia. I found out three days later. Her roommate called me and gave me the news. She knew we were close.

  42. Stormy Dragon says:

    @Mu Yixiao:

    There’s turkey bacon too, but in my mind it doesn’t really count because it’s turkey trying to pretend to be something better, and just underlines my point that no one really likes turkey as turkey.

  43. de stijl says:

    Unless you work in a bar or own a bar you probably don’t know this, but Thanksgiving Eve is probably the second highest revenue night behind New Years Eve. Maybe Super Bowl Sunday competes depending on where you live.

    I own a quite small slice of a consortium that owns and operates 6 bars in town. A minor partner with no voting shares. A decent income and seriously, the best shareholder meetings ever!

    Thanksgiving Eve is a big bar / club night. People are home to visit family and after a few hours with their family they decide they need to decompress and unwind a bit. Understandable. I feel you.

    Not a problem. We invite your patronage gladly! There is absolutely nothing wrong or shady or sketchy about profiting off people who drink to avoid or obviate anxiety.

  44. grumpy realist says:

    Elon Musk thinks that Japan is the way to go for Twitter.

    Given that Japan is the country with the greatest number of takedown requests, somehow I think that this chumminess only lasts as long as Musk manages to keep the crap off Japanese Twitter.

  45. dazedandconfused says:


    Trump has said he is aware that if he ever quits fighting his donors would abandon him. It is quite likely, should he lose the nom to DeSantis, he would run as an independant, caring nothing about how that could cost the Rs the election by splitting the vote. The most dangerous time…

  46. just nutha says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: The store I shop at had Brand X turkeys, 16# and under for 98 cents/pound for the first one and $ $1.39 for each additional one. And they were still giving away a free one with a $125 grocery purchase.

    Course, we raise turkeys in Washington State. Near where I live, IIRC.

  47. just nutha says:

    @Sleeping Dog: Even 2o years ago, I used to buy whipping cream a few days in advance. With just me, I don’t need any anymore. Cool Whip is much easier and I’m old enough to net need to worry about cancer and heart disease.

  48. charon says:


    It is quite likely, should he lose the nom to DeSantis, he would run as an independant,

    I believe every state now has “sore loser” laws, so if he participates in the primaries he would need to find a way around those to get on the ballot as an independent.

    Ballot access as an independent requires gathering signatures on petitions and jumping through legal hoops, so he would need to make a bit of effort and invest some resources. That, I believe, while distracted dealing with indictments, trials etc. – the documents case seems headed for an indictment, and there are other possibilities – Jan. 6, Fulton county, Trump organization in NY and more.

  49. just nutha says:

    @gVOR08: My guess would be that Alito doesn’t care about details beyond having power. Liked? Doesn’t matter. Feared? Held in awe? Maybe. The fact that what he says decides what the law is matters most, probably.

  50. Kathy says:


    …so he would need to make a bit of effort and invest some resources.

    And that sounds nothing at all like the Cheeto we all know and loathe.

    But it doesn’t matter. He just has to look as though he’s running as an independent. Then he can complain about the unfairness of it all, the deep state infestation at the GQP, etc., and fleece the rubes as long as he can.

    In typical Benito fashion, he won’t plan ahead, he won’t explore possibilities, he won’t even raise money ahead of time for that purpose. Much like he did after losing the election.

    I don’t know. It may help in getting him behind barts once he looks, acts, screams, complains, and whines like a pathetic loser.

  51. MarkedMan says:

    @Stormy Dragon: Mywhole family likes dark meat. Delicious. The white meat goes into stir fries and soup.

  52. MarkedMan says:

    @dazedandconfused: Trump, grifting by running as an independent. I could definitely see that.

  53. MarkedMan says:

    @charon: I’m sure there are democratic PACs that would very gladly help him get on the ballot as an independent. And the sore loser laws are a) constitutionally questionable and b) almost immaterial for the grift.

  54. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    @just nutha:

    SWMBO wants turkey once a year. With our small gathering of 5, our 14# bird is gently soaking up an apple juice/salt brine in preparation for tomorrow. Cracker’s bringing yams (and his company yea!). DoSHMBO bringing taters and pie. Hoping you all are blessed with convivial company (if that’s your bag), peace, and joy.

  55. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    @just nutha:
    Reminds me of my organic chem prof explaining (circa 1974, IIRC) that Cool Whip was a penultimate example of the joys of organic chem, because everything from package to center came from a 55 gal. barrel of crude. But dang it’s easy and tasty.

  56. CSK says:

    @Flat Earth Luddite:

    And the very best to you, too.

    What, or who, is DoSHMBO?

  57. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    Daughter of SWMBO and I.

  58. CSK says:

    @Flat Earth Luddite:
    A-ha. The “H” fooled me.

  59. Mu Yixiao says:

    Before I disappear for the long weekend, I leave you with this:

    Richard Nixon’s favorite snack was cottage cheese and ketchup.

    Happy Thanksgiving!

  60. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    Dyslexic agnostics against dawg untie!

  61. CSK says:

    The lovely Jenna Ellis, Trump’s former lawyer (one of the many), says that the Q Club shooting victims are burning in hell. Probably not Christians, you know.

  62. Flat Earth Luddite says:
  63. Mister Bluster says:

    @becca: @Arnold Stang: @Flat Earth Luddite: @DAllenABQ:..comix…
    I bought a dozen or so alternative (heh) comix at a yard sale from my landlord for maybe $5 back in 1976. They were in a cupboard when I stumbled on them recently.
    All have a cover price of 50¢ except Hydrogen Bomb and biochemical warfare FUNNIES! No. 1 $1
    ©1970 Rip Off Press Cover by Gilbert Shelton (bad shape)
    The San Francisco Comic Book Vol 1 No. 2 Adults Only March-April 1970 Includes art by R.Crumb and Dan Oneill (Odd Bodkins)
    Other titles include Skull No. 1 and 5, Yellow Dog, Motor City No.2, Zap No. 2 and No.5
    There is a copyright date 1968 on a piece in the Zap #2 but I don’t know if it applies to the entire content. If I remember some of the early rags tried to publish without copyright. Something about government control or some such. Supposed to be some sort of honor system or respect for another artists work. Obviously didn’t last long as most of the magazines that I have are ©, some without a date.
    I’ve been carrying these rags around in my car thinking that I would take them to one of the local Comic Book stores to see if they have any value. Not much I imagine as they are old and grubby looking.

  64. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    Alaska Republican U.S. Sen. Lisa Murkowski has won reelection, defeating Donald Trump-endorsed GOP rival Kelly Tshibaka.

  65. CSK says:

    @Flat Earth Luddite:

    And Mary Peltola vanquished Sarah Palin.

  66. Franklin says:

    @de stijl: Ugh. That was a beautiful, tragic short story. I’m sorry.