Tuesday’s Forum

Steven L. Taylor
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor of Political Science and a College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog). Follow Steven on Twitter


  1. OzarkHillbilly says:

    The killings on Independence Day renewed a national debate over why the country sees such events with deadening regularity and why officials and politicians appear powerless to stop them.

    Debate? What debate? There is no debate. We are hostage to an industry of death.

  2. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Fields medal: Kyiv-born professor and Oxford expert among winners

    A key step in trying to understand prime numbers, said Maynard, is to look at the size of the gaps between them. Maynard has made a number of breakthroughs, including showing that sometimes prime numbers come unusually close together and sometimes unusually far apart.

    Prof Andrew Granville, a former mentor, said that when Maynard made an early pivotal discovery in how often pairs of prime numbers occur that are two steps apart – such as three and five – Graville told the young mathematician he must have made a mistake. But Maynard had not.

    “It was a real shock,” said Granville. “And the thing is, he’s not a one horse wonder … James has approached one [question] after another and just made massive headway.”

  3. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Oklahoma to execute death row prisoners nearly every month

    Oklahoma is planning to execute a prisoner on death row nearly every month starting in August through 2024 in a move that is likely to cause outrage among opponents of the death penalty.
    Several men on death row have claims of innocence, and some lawmakers have been looking into the case of Richard Glossip, who was convicted of arranging the murder of a motel owner in 1997.

    Oklahoma legislators announced that an independent investigation revealed strong evidence of the innocence of Glossip, who is scheduled for execution in September.

    Pro-Life my ass.

  4. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Several weeks after Starbucks workers in Ithaca, New York voted to unionize, the company announced with just a week’s notice that their store on College Avenue, one of three in Ithaca, would be shut down. Starbucks claimed the decision to close was unrelated to unionization and was due to a problem with the grease trap system. Workers felt the store closure was retaliatory to the union.

    The dispute is just one of many that newly unionized workers can expect in the coming months. Starbucks workers have driven an unprecedented wave of union organizing victories, in the face of fierce opposition from the company. Now comes the hard part – agreeing a contract and moving forward with a company determined to stamp out its nascent union movement.

    Evan Sunshine, a barista at the Starbucks in Ithaca that closed, sees the closure as a continuation of union opposition he experienced leading up to the workers’ election win.

    “It was retaliation because we had the strongest union sentiments at our store,” said Sunshine. “It’s prime property – there’s just no reason for them to close. The rest of the reasons are all really miniscule – it didn’t make any sense.”

  5. Jen says:

    I know that this isn’t going to gain any traction (one hopes, at least) but what on earth are academics thinking when they make suggestions like this? This is crazy.

    A Plan To Tax Women For Being ‘Childless’? Welcome To Gilead

  6. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Jen: Does he want ketchup with that foot?

  7. Joe says:

    one horse wonder?

    I hope, OzarkHillbilly, that Granville is better at math than at commentary. I suspect Maynard is neither a one hit wonder nor a one trick pony.

  8. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Joe: to repeat:

    “It was a real shock,” said Granville. “And the thing is, he’s not a one horse wonder … James has approached one [question] after another and just made massive headway.”

  9. OzarkHillbilly says:

    As the Southwest enters its second decade of megadrought, and the Colorado River sinks to alarmingly low levels, Rio Verde, a largely upscale community that real-estate agents bill as North Scottsdale, though it is a thirty-mile drive from Scottsdale proper, is finding itself on the front lines of the water wars. Some homeowners’ wells are drying up, while others who get water delivered have recently been told that their source will be cut off on January 1st. “It’s going to turn into the Hunger Games,” Harris said grimly. “Like, a scrambling-for-your-toilet-water-every-month kind of thing.” The fight over how best to address the issue is pitting neighbors against one another. “Water politics are bad politics,” Thomas Loquvam, the general counsel and vice-president of EPCOR, the largest private water utility in the Southwest, told me. “You know that saying, ‘Whiskey is for drinking, water is for fighting’? That’s very true in Arizona.”

    The Southwest’s water issues are at a point of crisis. “What has been a slow-motion train wreck for twenty years is accelerating, and the moment of reckoning is near,” John Entsminger, the general manager of the Southern Nevada Water Authority, told Congress earlier this year. Arizona is one of seven states that, along with parts of Mexico, draw water from the Colorado River, which accounts for about a third of the state’s supply. (In the nineteen-seventies, Arizona built an extensive aqueduct system to channel river water to the central and southern regions of the state, in part to allay fears that it was overtaxing its finite supply of groundwater.) But the agreement divvying up the Colorado’s water was made at a time when flows were higher than they are now. In recent years, states that rely on that supply have had to contend with shortages, and experts predict that the situation is only going to get worse.

    The Foothills is a twenty-square-mile community of some two thousand houses and horse farms in Rio Verde. It’s unincorporated, so homeowners don’t pay city taxes, or receive city services, including water. Many homeowners see this as a plus. When I asked the people at Nabity’s house why they opted to live where they do, several replied, enthusiastically and in unison, “No H.O.A.!” Nabity’s house is off an unpaved road, surrounded by acres of brushland, and the property is regularly visited by roadrunners and hawks and, on occasion, a great horned owl. “Sometimes I’ll have a whole row of little baby quails,” she said. “They look like little cottonballs.”

    Recently, the downsides have become more visible. “It’s been keeping me up at night,” EPCOR’s Loquvam said. “Multiple nights, actually. I wonder if these people really understand what they were doing when they bought these homes.”

    And it gets worse.

  10. Kathy says:

    On momentous news, at least for some, Mike Duncan just finished the last season of his Revolutions Podcast. He’ll do one or two extra eps summing the whole thing up, but Revolutions, like The History of Rome before it, is over.

    I wonder what he’ll come up with next.

  11. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Groundbreaking photos from Webb telescope coming July 12

    Mark that date on your calendar now, as you will not want to miss the public release of the James Webb Space Telescope’s (JWST) first color pictures and scientific findings.

    It has been just over six months since JWST was launched on Christmas, and NASA’s $10 billion space telescope, 20-plus years in the making, has been taking images and making scientific observations.

    Last Wednesday, NASA held a media day at the Space Telescope Science Institute (STScI), in Baltimore, Maryland, that included a gathering of JWST scientists, engineers, managers and international media regarding the July 12 release of JWST’s first color and science images.

    The images to be released will be a “new view of the cosmos that we have never seen before. One of the images will be the deepest image of our Universe ever taken — further than humanity has ever looked into space,” said NASA Administrator Bill Nelson (who had to phone into the conference due to COVID-19). “Webb is a real scientific feat, whose journey has only just begun.”

    Must see TV:

    Also on July 13th, the program NOVA on PBS will be broadcasting “ULTIMATE SPACE TELESCOPE,” a one-hour documentary about JWST. I have seen the prerelease and was very impressed, even though the newly released images won’t be added to the program until July 12th.

  12. gVOR08 says:

    @Jen: From that article,

    some suggestions for “incentivising families to have more children and to have them when they are younger”.

    . The guy is focused on maintaining a large youth cohort to support the aging cohort. What the hell is wrong with these people in the face of Global Warming as per @OzarkHillbilly:. The planet can’t support the 8 billion of us we have now and that Bozo wants more of us.m?

  13. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:

    I unplugged from electronics for 4-5 hours yesterday, save for my depth-finder, and when I checked back in I found out that Republicans had offered 4 more American lives to the Gun Industry, in sacrifice, so that their pathetic political careers might continue.

  14. Kathy says:


    It’s overcrowded on the other side of the lifeboat. On their side, there aren’t enough white people yet.

  15. OzarkHillbilly says:


    This is exactly why I have trust issues now

  16. gVOR08 says:

    Because it’s a pet peeve of mine, I’ll pass on an aside from Dr. Krugman’s column today,

    (Side note: I hate the use of the word “populist” here, because Republicans have shown no inclination toward policies that would actually help workers. But I guess we’re stuck with it.)

    I’ll concede that most “populist” movements have been faux, the elites pandering to the mob’s worst prejudices to keep themselves in power. But doesn’t Political Science make any distinction between genuine and faux populism?

  17. JohnSF says:

    In any case, if you want to increase birth rates, the policies you need are obvious:
    – increased minimum wage, and other income support measures
    – reducing costs of child care; tax policies a part of this
    – availability and cost of small family type housing for young couples

    But seeing as the US actually has current natal population growth, it is hardly a subject that should cause anyone to lose much sleep.

  18. CSK says:

    Steve Bannon was a big proponent of something he called “economic populism.”

  19. CSK says:

    In case you needed further confirmation of Tfrump’s juvenile churlishness:


  20. Kathy says:


    I think I’ll withdraw my objection to book burning.

    But it’s not good for the environment. Shredding and recycling would be a more fitting option. recycling, after all, is one what one does with waste paper.

  21. CSK says:

    Just reading that article made me cringe. I suffer from vicarious embarrassment.

  22. Kathy says:

    Do you ever get the feeling many on the right regard the late XVIII century as kind of a golden age, one which they want to recreate now, ignoring all the changes, all the progress, and most of all the legislation passed since and the many amendments done to the Constitution?

    Not just the prevalent racism, or the extreme originalism and such, but also reliance on common law practices long 1) out of favor and 2) superseded by legislation at the state and federal levels. Things like appointing slates of electors outside the legal means for doing so, or against such means.

    To a lesser extent, also in foreign policy. Remember when pirates seized ships off the coast of Africa some years ago? I recall reading perfectly serious suggestions that the president and/or Congress should issue letters of marque to allow privateers to combat this menace. Really.

  23. MarkedMan says:


    reducing costs of child care; tax policies a part of this

    FWIW, tax policies have done very little to spur increases in child bearing, whereas childcare subsidies or government supplies childcare has had some impact.

    But seeing as the US actually has current natal population growth

    While true, this is misleading in the ways that the nativists care most about. The birth rate is above replacement only because of the relatively high birth rate of immigrants. Past the second generation they go below replacement level.

  24. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Look for Starbucks to reopen the store at some point. The parent company sells coffee under several different names as Howard Schultz bought several other roasters in the process of consolidating his business share. Some had espresso shops that were too popular to change the names of, I would assume.

  25. Jen says:

    @JohnSF: For once, it’s not a US academic, it was a professor in the UK–a demographer from Oxford. Still though…

  26. MarkedMan says:

    Already we are hearing the “he was so quiet, so normal” BS about Robert Crimino. Maybe he bought his guns and kept them hidden, but I doubt it. If someone buys an assault rifle there is something wrong with them, full stop (and Mu, I don’t want to hear that nonsense about what qualifies as an “assault rifle” in your expert opinion). Such an individual at the very least is fantasizing about killing people. It should surprise no one that they acted on it.

  27. KM says:

    Just spent my morning posting on several sites where the commentators keep insisting that ectopic pregnancies will still be treated in total ban states since they “are emergences” or “aren’t abortions” and don’t count. It’s really telling how many folks are in active denial about this and don’t want to accept that no exceptions for the health of the woman means a sh^tton of dead ladies is about to happen some states.

    I guess it comes from the cognitive dissonance of insisting abortion is murder. Since murder can’t be justified (else the fetus’ life is conditional), they must claim in spite of the law and their own logic that it’s different somehow. They say no doctor will refuse to treat an emergency (blatant lies – it’s already happening) or that the law will consider it not an abortion because it’s not a true pregnancy (bullsh^t and not what the law says). I had someone argue that stats were false and it was like 1/500 instead of 1/50…. which would mean 200,000 preventable deaths instead of 2 million in the worst case scenario like that’s an improvement.

    They really, really, REALY don’t want to admit how many woman will lose their lives in a year over this, likely because it’s going to be people they know. Women in red states dropping like flies is gonna be very obvious and unlike COVID, they won’t be able to lie easily about it. She was pregnant, had a crisis and now she’s dead – kinda obvious what happened. Still, the denial is strong because otherwise it means admitting their position is untenable and will result in visible death and suffering.

  28. Just nutha ignint cracker says:


    I wonder if these people really understand what they were doing when they bought these homes.

    Of course they did. They were buying nice places to live away from whichever “those people” they disdained the most. Probably for less than comparable places closer in.

    And it gets worse.

    Of course it does. If it didn’t, the thought exercise wouldn’t be called “the Tragedy of the Commons.”

  29. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @gVOR08: Hey, it’s either that or allowing more immigration and removing the cap on FICA and SECA taxes. Whattya gonna do?

  30. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Kathy: Again, they gotta increase their numbers so they don’t get pushed of the lifeboat by the unwashed brown hoards on the other side who want the lifeboat all to themselves. At least, white people are willing to share (well, sort of anyway 🙁 ).

  31. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @gVOR08: Can you tell which is which at first glance? It seems to be more of an “after the fact” thing to me. YMMV

  32. MarkedMan says:

    @KM: I’m not sure where you are getting your statistics but ectopic pregnancies are not going to result in hundreds of thousands of deaths each year. Between 1980 and 2007 there were a total of 876 deaths due to ectopic pregnancy in the entire US, 2-3 a year. And yes, this number will rise dramatically but not to hundreds of thousands per year.

  33. CSK says:

    I tried to reply to you about Crimo not looking remotely normal, but it seems to have offended the moderation gods.

  34. Jen says:

    @KM: I have long believed that at least part of the militant adherence to the “pro-life” line of thought includes a fair amount of cognitive dissonance on a number of issues. In the past couple of weeks I’ve seen:

    1) ardent insistence that ectopic pregnancies will be treated
    2) statements that very young girls cannot get pregnant
    3) that miscarriages, and to a lesser extent ectopic pregnancies, “resolve on their own”
    4) that severely ill fetuses will automatically be either miscarried or stillborn

    These are lies that people are telling themselves to disassociate their positions from the deaths that will occur. It’s going to be like the “he didn’t REALLY die from covid” stupidity that we have spent the last few years suffering through.

  35. Tony W says:

    @KM: At the very least, if abortion is murder, then actual mass murder is murder too – and they don’t seem too keen to do anything about that.

  36. Mister Bluster says:

    Parade shooting was planned, suspect dressed as a woman: police
    HIGHLAND PARK, Ill. (NewsNation) — The suspect in a shooting on an Independence Day parade in suburban Chicago had planned the attack for several weeks, acted alone and was dressed in women’s clothing to assist his escape, authorities said Tuesday.
    Lake County Major Crime Task Force spokesman Christopher Covelli said the suspect used a high-powered rifle “similar to an AR-15,” spraying parade-goers with more than 70 rounds that were initially mistaken for fireworks.

  37. Mister Bluster says:

    Highland Park shooting: Trump-backed Illinois gubernatorial candidate apologizes for ‘Let’s move on’ comment

    Highland Park shooting: Trump-backed Illinois gubernatorial candidate apologizes for ‘Let’s move on’ comment
    Illinois state Sen. Darren Bailey, Trumps Boyfriend and Republican candidate for Illinois Governor on the 4th of July:
    “The shooter is still at large, so let’s pray for justice to prevail.”
    And then let’s move on and let’s celebrate the independence of this nation,” the candidate said. “We know the mission. We’ve got to get corruption and evil out of our government, and we have got to elect men and women of honor and courage to get this country and this state back on track.”

  38. wr says:

    @Mister Bluster: “The suspect in a shooting on an Independence Day parade in suburban Chicago had planned the attack for several weeks, acted ”

    Well, clearly, the problem is not guns but men who like to dress as women, so we should criminalize all homosexual and trans behavior immediately to save lives.

    If that hot take isn’t all over the right wing media in a matter of hours, I’ll be shocked.

  39. Han says:


    Between 1980 and 2007 there were a total of 876 deaths due to ectopic pregnancy in the entire US, 2-3 a year.

    Not too sure about your math there…

  40. KM says:


    Yes, because the treatment for it was legal under Roe and thus less deaths happened for decades. The occurrence of them isn’t going to change, however; if you increase the number of pregnancies’ happening, then that number is going to skyrocket. Since an ectopic pregnancy can last up to 16 weeks in length, it means that women can run afoul of bans in multiple ways.

    As for the numbers, I assumed 1 million new pregnancies a year that would have been aborted prior to 16 weeks in accordance with most of the laws pre-Dobbs (the 10 average on most sites) and then 2% of that gives you 200,000 woman statistically likely to experience an ectopic pregnancy. Most didn’t die because they were able to be treated legally and with no fuss. Now? That number’s gonna jump pretty damn high. 200K is the nightmare scenario of a total national ban – still a possibility if the GOP gets their way. In the current political climate it’s going to be about 6-10K, all in red states. Remember, medical systems are going to be taxed to the limits with tens of thousands of newly pregnant patients as well as existing COVID loads and normal problems. Women aren’t going to be able to get the care they need and in rural red states with only one hospital for miles and miles? Also remember the 2% is based on historical data of several factors such as age, genetics and health of the population so if more 30+ women or those in ill health are forced into pregnancies they didn’t plan on, the percentage is going to rise as will the death count.

  41. Mister Bluster says:
  42. Mister Bluster says:

    @wr:..Well, clearly, the problem is not guns but men who like to dress as women, so we should criminalize all homosexual and trans behavior immediately to save lives.

    Start with this guy.

  43. CSK says:

    @Mister Bluster:
    He appears to be suggesting that we move on from the shooting on the day of the shooting.

    What a sensitive guy.

  44. Mister Bluster says:

    @CSK:..What a sensitive guy.

    “There’s a lot of confusion and frustration in the parade being canceled, but they did the right thing because people’s safety has got to come first. The shooter is still at large, so let’s pray for justice to prevail.”

    I’ll just call him Bumfuck Bailey

  45. Stormy Dragon says:

    TIL: Apparently there is a conspiracy theory community that believes jet fuel doesn’t actually exist and that all passenger jets are really powered by compressed air.

  46. JohnSF says:

    UK politics just got extra interesting, for hand-grenade-in-a-fireworks-factory-surrounded-by-a-shark-infested-moat-in-an-alligator-ridden-swamp values of interesting:
    Chancellor Rishi Sunak and Health Secretary Sajid Javid resign from the Cabinet.

    I would not bet heavily on Johnson seeing out the week.
    OTOH, my record as a political forecaster is rather patchy.

  47. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @wr: Well them and ladders. We need ladder control. Ladders need to be registered and one should have to get a license to own one. Plus there is the problem of concealed ladders…

  48. CSK says:

    I just saw that. I knew you’d appear to comment. 🙂

  49. Jen says:


    Between 1980 and 2007 there were a total of 876 deaths due to ectopic pregnancy in the entire US, 2-3 a year.

    It’s always dangerous for me to do math when I’m tired (thanks, fireworks for 4 nights + a frightened dog), but 1980-2007 is 27 years. 876 deaths/27 years = 32.1 deaths per year on average. I think.

    I know two women who had terminations due to ectopic pregnancies, and both were in bad shape–not sure how close to death, but that’s the point: they both made it because this was an available option.

  50. MarkedMan says:

    @Han: Whoops, dropped some zeroes: 20-30 per year

  51. JohnSF says:

    I’d be breaking out the popcorn.
    If only I actually liked popcorn. 🙂
    A gin and tonic and an evil grin will have to suffice.
    Might even stretch to an occasional manic cackle of glee.

  52. Kathy says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    That may be a misunderstanding.

    There are two types of jet engines: turbojets and turbofans.

    The first uses a compressor in front to compresses air that mixes with kerosene (aka jet fuel) in the combustion chamber. The exhaust is expelled backwards at high speed, propelling the plane forward. The exhaust also passes over turbine blades that turn the compressor in front. A small part of the compressed air bypasses the combustion chamber and is also ejected backwards.

    A turbofan is similar, except most of the exhaust is used to turn the much bigger compressor, and most of the compressed air bypasses the combustion chamber. Instead this air is ejected backwards at high speed.

    The latter design moves a bigger volume of gas (air) at a lower speed than the first, which is more efficient for sustained flight as in commercial aircraft. Turbojets can achieve higher speeds, but consume a lot more fuel either way.

    So, yes, turbofan jets are propelled mostly by compressed air, but they are powered by jet fuel.

  53. MarkedMan says:

    @Jen: I agree 100% that women are going to needlessly die because of this. I just think that talking about 200,000 woman dying per year (10 times the amount that die in car accidents!) or “women dropping like flies” will feed into the “hysterical pro-abortionists” trope.

    I think that the original number stated was 2 million. There are 64M women in the US between the ages of 15-44. If 2M of them were dying per year, the odds of any woman lasting through her child bearing years is negligible.

  54. Stormy Dragon says:


    I know that.

    But these people think that passenger jets have big tanks of compressed air in their wings instead of fuel and they fly by releasing that compressed air out the engines. Like blowing up a big balloon and then letting go of the neck so that it flies around as the air comes out.

    As best I can tell it’s a weird offshoot of 9/11 trutherism arguing that the planes could not have caused the explosions because they have no fuel in them at all.

  55. KM says:

    can someone let my comment out of moderation please?

  56. Stormy Dragon says:


    I think that the original number stated was 2 million. There are 64M women in the US between the ages of 15-44. If 2M of them were dying per year, the odds of any woman lasting through her child bearing years is negligible.

    I think you’re making a calculation error here, thinking if 2 million women between 15-44 die each year, that a woman’s chances of surviving to 45 are 1 – (29 * 2m) / 64m = 9%. It’s (1 – 2m /64m) ^ 29 = 40%

  57. Kathy says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    As best I can tell it’s a weird offshoot of 9/11 trutherism arguing that the planes could not have caused the explosions because they have no fuel in them at all.

    Ah, that explains a lot.

    I imagine a lightly loaded 737 would need a tank several times its size to hold enough compressed air to take off and climb, never mind cruise for hours and land.

    I wonder, too, what they think the fuel tank farms at airports actually hold.

  58. KM says:


    There are 64M women in the US between the ages of 15-44

    Part of the problem – my number’s higher because my age bracket was wider (10-50 specifically). Remember my number was for a worst case scenario which has a pretty good chance of happening if the nationwide ban kicks in. Of course 200K sounds high in that case but let’s be real here – pregnancy is more common then car accidents so that’s not a fair comparison.

    Also, “hysterical pro-abortionists” trope? You mean the people who warned the Right was gonna dismantle Roe after chipping away at it for decades and make forced birth a thing in America? The people who turned out to correct and not the people telling them to calm down or they’d be perceived as hysterical? Maybe we shouldn’t be trying to downplay how bad things can be for fear of being seeing as “emotional” and point out that yes, it can be that bad if they have their way.

  59. Kathy says:


    Treatment for ectopic pregnancy involves terminating the pregnancy as soon as possible. Prognosis depends on when it gets diagnosed and how quickly it’s treated. If doctors are afraid to end such pregnancies because it’s either actually forbidden by law, or because they may be charged and arrested even if there is a legal exception, then women are going to die from such pregnancies in larger numbers.

    But the relevant stat is not how many deaths occurred in the past, but how many ectopic pregnancies take place to begin with.

  60. Matt says:

    @MarkedMan: It was not an assault rifle. It’s a semi-automatic rifle. Definitions matter and you don’t get to redefine things that have had a definition used by US law, and domestic/foreign industries/militaries for +50 years.

  61. Matt says:

    @Matt: Too bad I can’t my post because it’s actually been 80+ not 50+ years.

  62. CSK says:

    The CDC stat for ectopic pregnancies is 1 in 100.

  63. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @wr: Thank you for being so agile of mind (with an assist from a lab appointment I just came back from). I really didn’t want to be the person who said this today but am glad that someone did.

  64. MarkedMan says:

    @Stormy Dragon: First of 91% death rate versus 60% death rate – both are wildly unlikely.

    But I still think your math is off, but I am virtually certain no one but us gives a darn. If their a way to sidebar I would.

  65. CSK says:

    @wr: @Just nutha ignint cracker:

    Well, so far the take in reaction to the women’s clothing is that Crimo is a socialist, a progressive a Democrat, an Antifa, an occultist, and programmed by a handler from the FBI/Deep State.

    Nothing about him being trans or gay.

  66. Jen says:

    NY Times is reporting that a seventh victim has died in the Highland Park shooting.

  67. MarkedMan says:

    @KM: I’m basing this on what I think happened with COVID. Part of the loony toon response was based on comparing what people such as us were saying versus what was happening, and judging our credibility negatively based on their personnel experience. To listen to many of we pro-vaccine people talk, COVID was virtually a death sentence and even if you survived long COVID would wreck your life. In reality, if you are younger than 45 your odds of dying or having serious complications are very, very low.

    I don’t see any benefit to wildly exaggerating the numbers of deaths in the abortion debate either, as I think it does more harm than good.

  68. a country lawyer says:

    @JohnSF: What effect do you think his ouster will that have on the Brexit/Northern Ireland protocol?

  69. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @MarkedMan: I went back to reread KM’s comment. It seems to suggest, at least to my reading, that across-the-board numbers from all pregnancy-causes will increase, perhaps by orders of magnitude (thus the “whole sh!t ton” reference).

    When the other side is using references to a “new American holocaust” as descriptions in preaching to its choir, I’m not going to fault the other for hyperbole in preaching to its. There are few in the audience who are actually on the fence (I’ve been one in my past life, and I am open to the possibility that there are people who lie to pollsters about it), and my experience is that the few there are tend not to use pro-/anti-choice as the tipping point for their votes.

  70. MarkedMan says:


    It was not an assault rifle. It’s a semi-automatic rifle.

    This is the stupidest argument from the pro-gun death crowd. What do you think you are accomplishing with this pedantic nonsense? The fact that there are better assault rifles and this one is little more than a regular rifle dressed up to look like a combat weapon matters not one bit. The people that buy them range from foolish man-boys to dangerous lunatics. The purpose of these weapons are to either play at killing people or to kill people, full stop.

  71. a country lawyer says:

    @a country lawyer: My kingdom for an edit! Should have read: What effect do you think his ouster will have on the Brexit/Northern Ireland protocol?

  72. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Stormy Dragon: Ah! Thanks! I was wondering why someone would think that. In service to another conspiracy explains it well.

  73. CSK says:


    The number of wounded is now 46.

  74. Han says:


    I assumed 1 million new pregnancies a year that would have been aborted prior to 16 weeks in accordance with most of the laws pre-Dobbs (the 10 average on most sites) and then 2% of that gives you 200,000 woman statistically likely to experience an ectopic pregnancy.

    Not meant to minimize at all, but 2% of 1 million is 20,000.

  75. wr says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker: I knew you had an appointment, so I thought I’d better fill in for you!

  76. wr says:

    @Matt: “t was not an assault rifle. It’s a semi-automatic rifle. Definitions matter ”

    To whom? To the dead people and their grieving families? To the doctors desperately trying to save the wounded? To a nation under siege by mass murderers who are free to kill as many as they want because the Republican party is completely in thrall to gun sellers? Or just to otherwise good people who love guns so much they’re willing to turn a blind eye to all the carnage, and need to change the subject to semantic issues in order not to have to deal with the horrible reality?

  77. MarkedMan says:

    @Kathy: @Kathy: I agree 100% that this anti-abortion religious fanaticism is a) wrong and b) will result in hundreds or even thousands of dead women each year from multiple causes. But ectopic pregnancies will not be anywhere close to 200K/year.

    First, there are only 3.6M pregnancies per year in the us. If one in a 100 are ectopic then that is 36K per year. So right off the bat, even if every pregnant woman who had an ectopic pregnancy died from it, is an order of magnitude lower than 200k.

    So, next question, what is the death rate for ectopic pregnancies if abortion is not available as a treatment? While I couldn’t find much post-1974 information on the mortality rate for untreated ectopic pregnancies, I did find this review of ectopic pregnancies from 1950 to 1974 in Michigan. It’s fatality rate estimation was 2-4 per 1000 ectopic pregnancies. Here’s another paper from 2012 in Nigeria, a place with much, much lower standard of care, and the fatality rate there was 14 per 1000 ectopic pregnancies.

    So, even if we assume the higher Michigan rate, and that all the women could have been saved if abortion was available as an option, about 150 additional women per year will die as a result.

  78. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @wr: Again, thanks! 😉

  79. JohnSF says:

    @a country lawyer:

    What effect do you think his ouster will have…

    On Brexit?
    That ship has sailed. (Also, been hijacked by pirates, and then sank in a freak hurricane while attempting to chase down Moby Dork the sea unicorn.)

    EU wouldn’t have us back if we asked, unless the country had a solid consensus (70% favour?) on joining minus our former opt-outs: special budget rebate, outside Schengen travel zone, outside Euro, etc (IMO EU actually benefitted from a separate pound as an internal hedging mechanism, but that view goes down like cold sick in Paris and Berlin).
    We won’t have such a consensus for at least a decade.

    Labour have just repeated they are against even re-joining the Single Market or a equivalent to Customs Union.
    Because they calculate the electoral maths and constituency maps mean they need a fair wedge of pensioner/working class Leaver votes to get a plurality or better of seats.
    Single Market means EU “Freedom of Movement” which makes the Leavers detonate.
    CU means no “independent trade deals”, which means explaining to the silly sods that independent trade deals aren’t worth a damn, which means in effect telling them they were stupid to vote Leave, which also causes toddler tantrum.

    On Northern Ireland protocol:
    Another government, Labour, or even “reality based Conservatives” (unlikely for internal party reasons), could at least drop the addiction to picking fights with Brussels, tell the DUP to stop playing silly buggers, sign up to a sanitary/phytosanitary alignment, set up shared customs data systems etc.
    Cultivate good will.
    Could make the NIP work reasonably well, and set a basis for possible longer term mitigation agreements.
    Re-stabilise the politics of Northern Ireland, hopefully.

    Similarly on developing a security and defence industries arrangement with EU, joint energy security agreements, science co-operation.
    But it will mean accepting that the EU states have their own interests, which they will prioritise vs a third party.
    UK will need to make attractive offers, make concessions, and in some matters accept the need for convergence on EU terms.
    Accepting (as even Labour and LibDems sometimes have trouble recognising) that we aren’t at the internal negotiating table any more; the EU doesn’t owe us any favours.
    Then a EFTA/EEA agreement might come in the Parliament after next, possibly.
    And re-join maybe after 10 or 15 years.

    All this assuming he does get ousted; it’ll be like trying to finish off Count Dracula.

  80. MarkedMan says:

    @JohnSF: should we be reading anything into the fact that both of the men who resigned appear to be of Asian descent?

  81. Kathy says:


    We do need to get the right numbers.

    That said, there are other complications to pregnancy than this one. Some can result in the mother’s death if left untreated, some don’t require termination but may induce it in some cases, etc. All that might be at risk now.

    BTW, there’s some speculation in historical circles that alcohol prohibition would have worked better had beer and wine been exempted. It’s impossible to say for sure, but I do see something along these lines with abortion prohibition. There will be less opposition if exceptions are made for rape, incest, and the health of the mother. And even less if there’s no aggressive prosecution of every miscarriage, or accident resulting in a premature end to a pregnancy. But the zealots on the right don’t seem inclined to go in that direction.

  82. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Kathy: Religious zealots aren’t into half measures. Take the gun lobby for instance…

  83. JohnSF says:


    It was not an assault rifle. It’s a semi-automatic rifle.
    Definitions matter

    This definition is a distinction that does not make that much of a difference in reality.

    The weapon may not be capable of fully automatic fire.
    But certainly the British Army trains soldiers to use rifles primarily in semi-automatic or “burst” mode, not “full rock’n”roll”, except in exceptional close quarters situations.

    Even “rapid” fire is deprecated when not essential, due to ammunition use rate.
    Even machine gunners are taught to usually use short bursts, not sustained auto.

    So a semi-automatic rifle is capable of being used in the same manner as the military usually use an assault rifle.

    And certainly in the same manner as a second world war semi-auto battle rifle like the M-1, which was a pretty effective means of killing people; and with a larger magazine than the Garand as well.

  84. Matt says:

    @MarkedMan: It’s not an argument it’s a statement of fact. You can’t expect to be treated seriously when talking about aircraft safety if you keep referring to them as cars…

  85. Matt says:

    @JohnSF: There’s a massive difference hence the definition that has existed for over 80 years.

    Burst is generally the go to unless you’re engaged in suppression fire or in an up close fire fight. Even then when suppressing the machines are supposed to “talk to each other” via short bursts which keeps up a stream of rounds down range.

    A blunderbuss is capable of being used in the same manner as the military. You’re not making a point here.

  86. Matt says:

    @wr: You’re the only one changing subject matters. I just merely corrected someone who was using a term in an incorrect manner. The rest is all you.

  87. MarkedMan says:

    @Matt: Your arguments are those an 11 year old boy would make, which is the general level of argument from the man-boy fun fetishist crowd.

  88. Matt says:

    I mean really look at all the posts in the abortion thread by some of the same people saying it’s not a baby but a zygote or fetus or a “clump of cells”. Suddenly you don’t care about applying the proper term when it’s inconvenient for your propaganda.

    Abortion on the right is the equivalent of talking to lefties about guns. They don’t care about using proper terms or the science. They have their feelings and by god everyone should have to accept them as the authority as a result.

  89. Matt says:

    @MarkedMan: What argument have I made? Other then we should use the proper terms/definitions?

    Look in an ideal world I have no problem with required classes, licensing, and insurance for gun ownership. That’s not going to happen because some democratic party members will use that to play games to screw over gun owners. The slow walking of ATF FFLs and such under a democratic president already leads credence to that possibility. We’re so polarized now I’m not sure how to get it done.

    Then there’s 3d printed guns which are very much a real thing. There are even competitions involving printed guns like the maker’s match. So banning normal capacity magazines is pretty much irrelevant already as you can print magazines easily with cheap 3d printers.

  90. Kathy says:

    This opinion piece in The Guardian might make for decent science fiction. Otherwise, the idea of founding a state on the net reads more like a Free State Project for Tech Bros.

  91. Kathy says:


    There are few varieties of zygotes, and they don’t have differing calibers, rates of fire, muzzle velocities, magazine size, etc.

  92. JohnSF says:


    Should we be reading anything into the fact that both of the men who resigned appear to be of Asian descent?

    Doubt it, in my judgement.
    There are quite a few ministers of British Asian descent still in the Cabinet (at least so far, LOL)
    Priti Patel, Home Secretary
    Suella Braverman, Attorney General
    Nadhim Zahawi, Education Minister
    Alok Sharma, Minister of State, Cabinet Office, Climate Action Implementation Committee
    Plus quite a few junior (non-Cabinet) ministers and PPS’s (lost track, to be honest).

    Also four or five PPS have walked; Jonathan Gullis, Saqib Bhatti, Nicola Richards, Virginia Crosbie; plus Party Vice-Chair Bim Afolami.

  93. JohnSF says:

    Well, perhaps burst is the “go to” in the US armed forces; all I can say is that single-shot is the default in British Army use.
    The SA80/L85 doesn’t even have a burst mode.

    To be honest, as a means of hitting a sizable number of targets in a fairly short time, I happen to think the distinction between “semi-automatic rifle” and “assault rifle” is pretty much just semantic potato/potahto in any case, whether made by gun control advocates OR by “right to bear” types.
    IMO best kept out the hands of the general public.

    But then again, I’m a Brit, so what do I know about the ways of liberty?

  94. Jen says:

    This bit about the proper naming/categorization of a gun strikes me as a bit peevish. It’s being deployed as a sorting tactic: “you aren’t using the correct terminology, therefore your opinion isn’t worthwhile.”

    I mean, on the one hand, sure–and the “Assault Weapons Ban” was incorrectly labeled as a result–it wasn’t a full ban (people could still purchase AR-15-style guns) and they technically weren’t assault weapons.

    The confusion is understandable, however, when this is the case: “Under the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994, the definition of “assault weapon” included specific semi-automatic firearm models by name, and other semi-automatic firearms that possessed two or more from a set certain features.”

    Getting prissy about terminology when it doesn’t serve to advance the discussion is nit-picking, particularly when it’s clear what people mean.

  95. JohnSF says:

    But have you never hear d of the the Terminator’s ultimate weapon?
    The Hasta La Vista Baby.

  96. a country lawyer says:

    @JohnSF: Exactly right. If it’s primary design is to kill humans, whether or not it’s cable of full automatic fire, then it’s an assault rifle. The AR-15 and its variants are based on the Stoner system m-16 introduced to the U.S. military during the Viet Nam war. When I joined the Marine Corps in 1965 I trained on the m-14 a semi-automatic rifle. (There were some m-14s which had a switch which would convert it to full automatic). You could hunt game with the m-14 but that was not the design purpose.
    I’m an old guy and I no longer hunt but I did for many years starting as a teenager. I still have my first deer rifle, a winchester 30-30 carbine. If someone claims to need a ar-15 or its variant to hunt game, he’s not a hunter.
    One of the silliest arguments I’ve heard from the gun nuts is you can’t define and assault weapon. Here’s my definition. An assault rifle (rifle is defined in the U.S. Code) is any rifle, greater than 22 caliber rim fire, which is capable of automatic or semi-automatic fire and which has either an internal magazine capable of holding more than 7 rounds or is capable of accepting a removable magizine.

  97. JohnSF says:

    Wretched and slyly evasive edit function!
    Meant to add to comment @JohnSF that when I referred to using SA80 in “burst” in the earlier post @JohnSF: as this weapon does not actually have a distinct “burst” selection, the actual British Army term is “rapid fire”. Which can be either very fast semi-automatic shooting, and/or very short pulls on full auto.
    The usual distinctions made are:
    “deliberate fire” = around 10 rounds per minute
    “rapid fire” = around 30 rounds per minute
    “automatic fire” = does what it says on the tin

    And just to tease, the edit function now shows up again. 🙁

  98. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    On a separate note, thanks to Axios:

    Vietnam heroes get their due

    And in furtherance of this belated thank you from a grateful nation, thanks to @a country lawyer and all those who served, whatever and whenever the conflict. Speaking only for myself, while I may not have appreciated the time, place, or manner you were asked to serve in, I am profoundly grateful for everyone’s service.

  99. JohnSF says:


    Could new countries be founded – on the internet?

    Questions to which the answer is “no”; example number 3,241.

  100. wr says:

    @Matt: “Look in an ideal world I have no problem with required classes, licensing, and insurance for gun ownership. That’s not going to happen because some democratic party members will use that to play games to screw over gun owners.”

    In other words, we can’t possibly take a chance on any sensible gun regulations just in case some wicked Democrats try to take us down that slippery slope and of course once they try all opposition will magically vanish and all guns will disappear from America, so it’s much better that our reign of mass murderers continue and that countless innocent people die than anyone take the terrible risk that someone, somewhere, sometime might attempt to interfere with your unfettered right to all the toys you want.

    You can sound reasonable when you choose, but when you come down to it, you want your precious and you don’t care how many people have to die for that.

  101. wr says:

    @Jen: “Getting prissy about terminology when it doesn’t serve to advance the discussion is nit-picking, particularly when it’s clear what people mean.”

    Yes, but if people are squabbling over nomenclature they’re not looking at the childrens’ bodies.

  102. dazedandconfused says:

    DeSantis signs bill requiring Florida students, professors to register political views with state

    Public universities in Florida will be required to survey both faculty and students on their political beliefs and viewpoints, with the institutions at risk of losing their funding if the responses are not satisfactory to the state’s Republican-led legislature.

    The unprecedented project, which was tucked into a law signed Tuesday by Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis, is part of a long-running, nationwide right-wing push to promote “intellectual diversity” on campuses — though worries over a lack of details on the survey’s privacy protections, and questions over what the results may ultimately be used for, hover over the venture.

    Based on the bill’s language, survey responses will not necessarily be anonymous — sparking worries among many professors and other university staff that they may be targeted, held back in their careers or even fired for their beliefs.

    According to the bill’s sponsor, state Sen. Ray Rodrigues, faculty will not be promoted or fired based on their responses, but, as The Tampa Bay Times reported Tuesday, the bill itself does not back up those claims.

    Right thinking will be rewarded, left thinking will be punished!. I suppose Gov DeSantis is aware the profs will simply answer the questions as they feel a Trumptard would. He’s looking at a head to head duel with Trump for the nom so he’s gotta do what he’s gotta do…

    (insert Ozzie’s Crazy Train vid here)

  103. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @JohnSF: Hush up now! You’re going to ruin a perfectly good counterargument (iow, reasonable/logical sounding bs) if you start chiming in with a bunch of extraneous facts. Sheesh!

  104. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Matt: What argument have I made? Other then we should use the proper terms/definitions?

    The Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act or Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) was a subsection of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a United States federal law which included a prohibition on the manufacture for civilian use of certain semi-automatic firearms that were defined as assault weapons as well as certain ammunition magazines that were defined as large capacity.

    You lost that argument 28 years ago. Not that it matters to anyone but you. Your attempts at obfuscation have been successful to the extent that now people here aren’t discussing the only thing that really matters: 6 dead, 46 injured. All so a certain minority of the populace can have their military cosplay weapons of mass shootings.

    So, job well done. Now, fuck off with your pedantic bullshit.

  105. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: My bad, 7 dead and 46 injured.

    Eta: It’s hard to keep up with the latest death/wounded tolls. They change several times a day.

  106. CSK says:

    Sounds like a loyalty oath, doesn’t it?

  107. steve says:

    The issue with ectopics is the management. You can look up frequency of ectopics and estimate how many more we will have but how many more deaths will depend somewhat on treatment. We treat by expectant watching (serial HCGs), chemo (methotrexate mostly) or surgery. Some ectopics dont stay implanted and go away on their own. If they do not you can go to chemo or surgery.

    The issue I see is that some states are wanting to define life as starting at conception. If that is the case giving chemo or doing surgery is killing the baby. So we practitioners are concerned that in states that allow exceptions for the life of the mother we may need to wait until the mother’s life is actually in danger ie when it ruptures. Once you have rupture it can be a real surgical emergency with mass transfusion. If it happens at the wrong hospital you die. Much better to treat before it is a crisis. If we have states that do not allow for exceptions for life of the mother no idea what happens.


  108. Jax says:

    @steve: Thanks, I was hoping you would chime in. Specifically for the lurkers hanging around who might be on any kind of fence about how difficult the definition of “from conception” might be for medical providers who have to make life-saving decisions, and possibly risk losing their medical licenses or be criminally charged.

  109. @gVOR08:

    But doesn’t Political Science make any distinction between genuine and faux populism?

    In simplistic terms, “populism” is a style of doing politics that does not, in any way, guarantee that it will help those to whom it appeals.

  110. Mikey says:

    In the aftermath of the Highland Park mass shooting a little boy, 2 years old, was found wandering around. Not surprising, it was utter chaos and he probably got separated from his parents, the police just need to find them and he’ll be home in no time.

    Well, they found his parents. They’re both dead.

  111. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Oh meant to say this this AM, but @Kathy: Atheism isn’t a religion, anymore than not collecting stamps is a hobby.

    Atheism is a belief system, every bit as much as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc etc etc. It is just that where they believe there is a deity/s guiding the universe, we believe the laws of nature guide the universe, No deity needed.

  112. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Mikey: Fuck. Fuckity fuck fuck.

    But Matt want’s everybody to know they weren’t killed with a firearm that meets his very narrow and very dated definition of an “assault weapon”.

  113. gVOR08 says:

    @Stormy Dragon: That bit about jets being powered by compressed air sort of fits. In fact it seems necessary. If jets are powered by jet fuel, then the contrails are easily explained as condensing water vapor in the exhausts. (Doesn’t have to be jets, you sometimes see photos of WWII bombers trailing contrails. In the right conditions you can also see contrails off wingtips, where the tip vortex lowers air pressure and moisture condenses. Even, on very humid days, off the tips of racecar rear wings.) But if jets don’t burn fuel, then there’s obviously no explanation except that they’re “chemtrails” of brainwashing drugs. Or something.

  114. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    @steve: Of course, the financial burden on uninsured/underinsured and ultimately, society is a biproduct. I know people with decent insurance, who burned through a $1M lifetime cap in the first months of a catastrophic illness. Of course, as previously discussed, these measures are designed to punish the poor / minority / other members of society, not the good, gosh fearing people who put these bans in place.

  115. Jen says:

    @Mikey: Good lord. I wonder if that’s the same toddler a woman pulled out from under his dead father, or another one.

  116. dazedandconfused says:


    Not to me. It’s not DeSantis’s bill, his Trumpian legislature set it in front of him, and they have discerned their true enemy: Education.

  117. gVOR08 says:

    @Matt: @MarkedMan: Matt, your comment that AR-15 clones are not assault rifles is both technically correct and completely irrelevant. The phrase is used by the press to describe them and is understood by the public to mean rifles that mimic military arms, mostly M-16s and AK-47s. The better phrase is “military style rifle”, which the press occasionally use. I prefer “pretend assault rifle” which is technically correct, and I think captures the psychology of the typical owner. However it does downplay their considerable lethality.

  118. MarkedMan says:

    @wr: You know, there are certainly difficulties in categorizing weapons, but there’s one thing that takes no effort: it’s straight certain that the type of fantasist that buys assault weapons and various other “tactical” gear and obsesses about kill rates, centers of mass, and of course, whether some GI Macho toy counts as an assault weapon shouldn’t be allowed so much as a pea shooter.

  119. gVOR08 says:

    @wr: Kurt Vonnegut had been in Dresden as a POW during the fire bombing of the city in 1945. It became the basis for his novel Slaughterhouse Five. IIRC he returned after the war and told of mentioning to a taxi driver the missing window of the cathedral. The driver went on at some length about it being shot out by the 20mm auto cannon of an RAF Mosquito etc. etc. Vonnegut said he’d seen this in other Germans. Obsessing about the technical details was a way to avoid talking, or thinking too much, about anything else.

  120. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @CSK: Sounds more like a reason to go to university in not-Florida to me. But back in the day, I would have asserted that I didn’t have any political viewpoints being a follower of Arminian theology, if asked to register. (Then again, I played a lot of Calvinball with the expectations of my teachers in high school, too.)

  121. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Mikey: Thanks! Just the thing to brighten my day. :-X

  122. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @dazedandconfused: Well, DeSantis could save all of that money for the state and lower taxes if only UF and FSU weren’t football factories where the program pays its own way and the ways of some other programs. Makes it harder to close the others down. And if kids don’t go to college (because there aren’t any), then high school can to back to being storage until the kids are old enough to pick citrus. More savings! More tax reductions.

    How to get rid of major college football and that pesky SEC/ACC contender status problem.

  123. gVOR08 says:


    Atheism is a belief system, every bit as much as Christianity, Islam, Judaism,

    “Belief” is a funny word. It covers everything from an ancient Greek believing a god carried the sun across the sky in a chariot to my belief the sun will rise tomorrow. And not believing is not the same as believing not.

    And Kathy, I assume you’ve heard Ernest Rutherford’s line that “All science is either physics or stamp collecting.”

  124. BugManDan says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I think that @Matt was just trying to be helpful and point out that we should not limit restrictions to assault rifles, but instead restrict all automatic/semi-automatic weapons. They ARE clearly defined.

  125. grumpy realist says:

    @gVOR08: Wasn’t it Rabi who, upon hearing about the discovery of the neutrino, asked “who ordered that?!”

    (People have asked me whether I’m a monotheist or a polytheist and my response has been: “what is someone who at present only believes in the existence of one of the Greek gods and not all?”

  126. Jax says:

    10:37 PM Mountain Time, the main water line to my house just blew a leak under where the hot water heater is. Trying to laugh, because tomorrow is a big day, all hands on deck….and I can’t even take a shower because whoever put this house in didn’t install a shutoff valve for the main water that’s in the house, I have to shut it off at the well.

    Trying to laugh. 😐

  127. Matt says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Once again I made no argument. I just pointed out that he was using the wrong term. Your “assault weapon” term is an attempt at obfuscation that started in the early 90s. It was an intentional choice by anti-gun groups to make up the term so they could confuse people. Looks like a rousing success as you and many others have fully embraced it. Being one of those zygote people you really should care more.

  128. Matt says:

    @wr: I was attempting to point out the perspective of a good chunk of gun owners out there. The democratic party has a history of taking an inch and running a mile with it. You choose to not take it as a learning opportunity and instead as a chance to shit all over me and others who have done nothing wrong. Looking at your response are you really surprised gun owners don’t want to work with you? Your tendency to run full forth into your own fevered dreams more then matches those of the gun owners I’ve tried to talk sense into on the right. You have a lot in common in that aspect. Unfortunately that kind of common ground cannot be exploited to produce a compromise.

  129. Matt says:

    @gVOR08: It’s completely relevant as you should use proper terms when referring to things. You don’t call a zygote a baby if you want to be taken seriously. You don’t call an airplane a sky bus if you want to be taken seriously. Hyperbolic rhetoric isn’t going to result in any progress. All rifles mimic military arms as almost every single one of them is based around a concept or round that was initially developed for war. It turns out that humans are just animals and what kills us well also kills dear/bears/etc well..

    Pretend assault rifle is kind of funny as it emasculates a certain section of obnoxious gun owners/larpers.