Tuesday’s Forum

James Joyner
About James Joyner
James Joyner is Professor and Department Head of Security Studies at Marine Corps University's Command and Staff College. He's a former Army officer and Desert Storm veteran. Views expressed here are his own. Follow James on Twitter @DrJJoyner.


  1. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Christian D’Andrea


    I love the defender’s gesture after the catch. He couldn’t have said, “WTF??? How am I supposed to stop that???” any clearer.

  2. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Sergei Surovikin: the ‘General Armageddon’ now in charge of Russia’s war

    It’s gonna get a whole lot bloodier. Hopefully, this is another general the Ukrainians can take take out.

  3. Jen says:

    I genuinely don’t understand the FOX news take on this. Why…is this a thing? Having the screen capture and “AUDIO OF BIDEN’S VOICEMAIL TO SON HUNTER” makes this seem like they’re trying to convey something…what? That Biden loves his son?

    I do not understand. What’s the scandal here?

  4. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Jen: Biden himself–actually both of them–are the scandal.
    The fact that nothing about it is scandalous only makes the opposition madder.

    @OzarkHillbilly: The amazing wonder that is Stickum?

  5. CSK says:

    Via Twitter, Tulsi Gabbard announced today the she’s leaving the Democratic party because it’s “under the complete control of an elitist cabal of warmongers driven by cowardly wokeness, who divide us by racializing every issue & stoke anti-white racism…”

  6. daryl and his brother darryl says:

    I have no idea how the Democratic Party can go on after this.

  7. CSK says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl:

    She’s calling on “all common sense Democrats” to join her. I’m sure there’ll be a stampede.

  8. Gustopher says:

    @Jen: Clearly a man that loves his son is involved in any crap his son is involved in.

    I hope Biden pardons his kid on the way out the door. Give a statement that he is tarnishing his legacy to give his kid another chance, because what father given the power wouldn’t? And publicly tell his kid not to fuck it up again.

    Just piss off the Republicans, and make the Trump kids jealous they didn’t get pardons.

    Yes, yes, rule of law and all that, but I think being the subject of countless Right wing attacks is basically punishment enough. Plus, what are the odds that Hunter will keep his nose clean?

    (Woke up shivering because fever… how do people with jobs — especially real jobs — survive such minor, inevitable trials and hellish times? All well and good for me to pop another acetaminophen, browse internet for a few minutes and try to go back to sleep and try to get 12 hours, but I have zero responsibilities other than feed the cats.)

  9. Gustopher says:

    @CSK: Fucking tankies. Tulsi Gabbard deserves something awful.

  10. JohnSF says:

    Thing about Surovkin is, he made his reputation in Syria.
    What often gets overlooked, in accounts of the success of Russian forces and their ruthless tactics is:
    Syria was a permissive environment for the Russian Air Force
    Syrian rebel were divided into umpteen rival factions, no state institutions. no organised armed forces, no manufacturing or engineering capability, minimal external support

    And the cherry on top of the cake: the ground troops were provided by Iran, Hezbollah, and the Alawites.
    Most of the time the effective commander on the Russian/Syrian side was Qasem Soleimani, not Sergei Surovikin.

    Surovikin is going to find that Ukraine plays in a whole different league to Syrian rebels.

    Though he probably already knows that: IIRC he’s been in command of Army Group South since June.

  11. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @CSK: Buh bye Tulsi. [little finger wave]

  12. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Gustopher: Fortunately, I never had any serious illnesses while I was still working my real jobs. At least, none for which I didn’t have sick leave and time loss payments available.

  13. Sleeping Dog says:


    The two interesting items coming out of Ukraine today were Russia’s large expenditure of weapons that have resulted in not moving the needle in their favor, one iota and the word salad pouring out of Lukashenko’s mouth.

    Early reports at the war’s beginning, were that the Belarus military wanted nothing to do with assisting Russia in Ukraine and now it appears that Lukashenko is moving in that direction. We could quite likely look forward to not Belarus entering the war, but a coup and a civil conflict in Belarus.

  14. Kathy says:

    @Sleeping Dog:

    Mad Vlad should be careful what he wishes for.

    What if Belarus enters the war and does better than Mother Russia?

  15. Tony W says:

    Apparently, we are all supposed to be dead (again) after yesterday’s activation of the 5G chip (or whatever) in the COVID vaccine.

    I’m starting to think this Q-anon thing might be disingenuous.

  16. KM says:

    Pick me girls are always so sad. Guys too (looking at you, Kanye)

    The GOP is never gonna love you, Tulsi just like they don’t love Sinema. Your value was in being a quisling Dem they could point to and say “see, the smart ones agree with us!!” or as possible spoiler/spanner in the works. Now that you’re on Team Trump, you’re just a forgettable, replaceable face that doesn’t even conform to the blonde template they favor. Remember Palin and Haley? The base doesn’t. They don’t care about you and whatever prospects you think you had for grifting are pretty limited and time-sensitive. Tick, tock the younger blonder whiter and angrier version’s already cutting into your share of the pie….

    No one’s gonna miss you but nobody’s gonna be welcoming you with open arms either. Your ideological home will gladly shut the door in your face and call the cops on your trespassing butt

  17. KM says:

    @Tony W:
    Huh, is that why most of the office woke up with headaches this morning? I thought it was Cocktail Slushie Monday but I’ll be happy to accept faulty 5G as an answer. Damn Gates, why’d you schedule a tech update on Monday?!

    (PS Logonberry vodka slushies are great and easy to make. 4 stars!)

  18. Kathy says:

    I’m not saying the arguments about OPEC+, Saudi Arabia, and Russia are wrong, but it also looks like America will let slide brutal war and assassinations, but not a rise in gas prices.

  19. Kurtz says:


    Either that, or he was thinking, “WTF? Fields throws?”

  20. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @CSK: I’m not sure 2 people will qualify as a stampede.

  21. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    When did the new 5G chip activate yesterday? I suddenly woke up at 12:20 am PST with a cramp in my ankle.

    My other question is are the chips from the old boosters rebooting with this new startup? I haven’t been able to get the new vaccine in my area so far.

  22. Kathy says:

    @Tony W:

    Well, as temps are finally going down, I’ve started sleeping under a heavier blanket for the first time since mid-March. I’ve slept much better than usual. Today I even slept through the first alarm. That’s not easy. it’s loud, the phone vibrates, and it lasts several minutes.

    Can’t wait for the 6G chips.

  23. Sleeping Dog says:

    Over at The Atlantic, Franklin Foer is convinced that Garland will indict TFG.

    His reasoning is boiled down to 3 things, Garland is an institutionalization, he’s fastidious and dedicated to the rule of law. If Garland weren’t to indict, it would to save the country from the chaos that would ensue.

    Foer focuses on indictments for 1/6 or the Papers theft and that is where it is interesting. My reading is that TFG’s culpability is more established and convincing in the documents case and likely a slam dunk to prove, 1/6 has greater uncertainty.

    But that isn’t the real interesting piece. A 1/6 trial would occur in DC and all the chaos that goes on around it, including possible violence, would be at the seat of government, with the documents case would probably being heard in FLA. Now, savor this thought, Trump’s mini me and pretender to his throne, would be responsible for maintaining public safety.

    It would be too much to expect hope that anti-trump protesters would stay away and leaves the street battles to become contests between the MAGAts and the authorities, but it would become must see TV and it would be a defining moment in DeSantis’ future.

  24. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @JohnSF: Yes to all that. With him at the top, I expect an increase in war crimes, especially by the new Wagner group recruits.

  25. CSK says:

    I was being ironic, as you’re well aware.

  26. Slugger says:

    @Jen: Well, you certainly won’t be able to find any recordings of Trump expressing love for his sons; just ask Junior and Eric. Trump supporters are very concerned about manliness and use him as the standard of behavior. That’s why even he considers them asskissers; just ask JD Vance.

  27. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Tony W: I had forgotten all about that but I noticed a significant improvement in data transmission yesterday. Now I know why.

  28. Jon says:

    @Sleeping Dog: I’m not sure it is correct that the documents case would be in Florida. As I understand it the DC Circuit Court is responsible for all cases related to classified documents so there is a good chance the case would be moved there. Unless DOJ only tries to charge unlawful possession of government documents and omits the espionage act/classified documents angle which, to my untrained eye, seems unlikely.

  29. Gustopher says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker: I’m not seriously sick! It’s a flu, a run of the mill flu. An illness millions of Americans get each year.

    Even when I’m working I’m going on easy mode with “work from home while sick” and just staring vacantly at a computer for a bit.

    I assume I got it from someone who can’t do that, forcing their way to work while sick, a barista or waiter at the place I will eat outside at, handing me something with surface contact goo that I then rubbed in my eye or something… and I’m not a strong enough person to work through this (and infect others) like they were.

    I’m soft. I’m shocked my ancestors weren’t devoured by sheep or something the first time they had a minor fever.

    (Can’t roll over and try to sleep without dislodging my favorite cat…)

  30. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @CSK: You were? Well… I never would have guessed that!

  31. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Jon: I was thinking the fact that the original crime was committed in DC would be reason enuf to hold the trial there but IANAL so maybe not.

  32. JohnSF says:

    @Sleeping Dog:
    Belarus is interesting.
    Lukashenko escaped being reduced to a vassal due the Ukrainian wins forcing Russia to redeploy its forces. He was attempting to maneuver between Russia and Europe even after February.
    And reported to be dong the same recently.
    Perhaps Putin has issued an ultimatum behind the scenes?

    But he ‘s not in a good position.
    His domestic base is weak, people often regard Ukraine with more sympathy than Russia, his one firm support group are the military/security forces.
    But both he and they have to know that the Ukrainians would chew them up and spit them out in short order.

    I think I detect the hand of that master of strategicalolery, V. Putin here.
    He’s going to shoot himself in the foot again, if he’s not careful.

  33. CSK says:

    I’m very subtle.

  34. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @CSK: Certainly fooled me!

  35. Sleeping Dog says:


    To this point, the DoJ case is for violation of the presidential records act, if he were indicted for that rather than theft of classified material, the case could tried elsewhere. No reason to speculate otherwise. But we really want it in FLA.

  36. Kathy says:

    @Sleeping Dog:

    What if Florida Man sends the national guard and/or state police to liberate Benito from the clutches of the feds? Does he want to be president badly enough to blaspheme against the Most Orange One?

  37. Mister Bluster says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:.. “WTF??? How am I supposed to stop that???”

    That was a great play. All for naught.
    True to form the Bears found a way to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory.

    (can’t find a clip of Bears last fumble. damn near right at the goal line with seconds left on the clock)

  38. daryl and his brother darryl says:

    @Sleeping Dog:

    If Garland weren’t to indict, it would to save the country from the chaos that would ensue.

    This ignores the chaos that ensues if the former guy isn’t indicted.
    Trump must be indicted or the rule of law means nothing and democracy will be on deaths door.
    THAT is chaos.

    …Trump’s mini me and pretender to his throne, would be responsible for maintaining public safety.

    If either Trump or DeSantis are elected they will simply quash the prosecution.
    Again; chaos.

  39. steve says:

    “(Can’t roll over and try to sleep without dislodging my favorite cat…)”

    Heresy! Who would even think of doing such an awful thing? Our two demand total immobility until about 3:00 AM when they decide it is time for cat crazies. Each is 20 pounds and like a little furnace so now that it is getting cooler it is much nicer.


  40. Sleeping Dog says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl:

    The article is about Garland and what he’ll do, what would happen if a future R admin came to power is an entirely different question.

    Assuming DeSantis is prez in 2025, allowing the courts to dispose of TFG would be quite tempting. It is a mistake to assume that TFG & DeSantis would act as a team, beyond a period of convenience.

    If DeSantis is elected, TFG will be demanding that he resign and turn the WH over to its rightful occupent, D.J. Trump. Why would DeSantis want that headache.

  41. CSK says:

    @Sleeping Dog:

    Trump will do whatever it takes to sabotage any Republican running in 2024.

  42. CSK says:

    It will surprise absolutely no one to learn that, according to the WaPo, Trump’s “Save America” PAC is spending a large proportion of its money paying Trump’s legal bills.

  43. daryl and his brother darryl says:

    @Sleeping Dog:
    DeSantis cannot win the election without brokering some kind of deal with the MAGA-King.
    There’s no way for him to dispatch the former guy without losing the nut-job base.

  44. Jon says:

    @Sleeping Dog: It’s not though; the PRA has no actual enforcement provisions. The search warrant specifically cited the espionage act and obstruction of justice, and I forget the 3rd statute. Point being I think a strong case can be made to move it to DC where it could well be in front of DC Circuit Chief Judge Beryl Howell. I don’t think she’s been taking too kindly to MAGA shenanigans in general so that probably wouldn’t go well for Trump. And really I’d prefer to get it out of Florida courtrooms given what we’ve already seen from Trump-appointed judges down there. As fun as it may be to try and put DeSantis in a bad position I’m just not sure it’s worth it.

  45. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Sleeping Dog: I won’t be holding my breath waiting for this indictment to come down but will be happy to see it make the trip if it decides to.

  46. Sleeping Dog says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl:

    TFG maybe busy defending himself in court to run. Even if there is a deal cut, it won’t be public and DeSantis would have every reason to disavow it once in the WH. The R party will then be DeSantis’, because that is what happens in tribes, the new chief receives the loyalty of the members.

    Yes, some faction of MAGAts will wail and scream about disloyalty and threaten DeSantis, but by 2028, TFG will either be dead, in jail or sitting on a lawn chair, holding a golf club and drooling at Mar-a-Lago having his picture taken with fans.

  47. MarkedMan says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl: @Sleeping Dog: I think you re both right. Desantis needs Trump. And Desantis will do everything in his power to destroy Trump once he has what he wants.

  48. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl: Interesting test of Dr. Taylor’s theory about institutions. DeSantis actually dispatches FG (or has a Mafioso/hit man do it) and we see if the nut cases stay home or still vote “R.” My money is on still vote “R.” Who’s in?

  49. MarkedMan says:

    @Sleeping Dog:

    TFG maybe busy defending himself in court to run.

    From what I’ve read, it’s the opposite. Trump has been telling allies that if he runs the DOJ has to back off, and if he wins they have to drop it. If that’s his state of mind he is most certainly going to run. I look at a late November or Early December announcement at the latest. But I wouldn’t rule out an October announcement if he thinks the indictment will come immediately after the mid-terms.

  50. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker: I’ll put up a side bet that if it were discovered that DeSantis actually ordered the hit, it would enhance his image among the GQP electorate and increase his turnout.

  51. Sleeping Dog says:


    Absolutely. I’m not convinced that trump can win the nomination in 24 and if he doesn’t he will wreck holy h&ll on the Rs. But I’m more confident that any Dem can beat trump, but far more pessimistic that one could be a different R candidate. Biden for all his high negatives, still out polls trump by a not insignificant margin.

  52. Kathy says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl:

    The way for Florida Man to attack Benito is from the right, making the Orange One look weak, cowardly, stupid, and ineffective.

    At first glance this seems as hard as shooting fish in a barrel, or turning a knob to open an unlocked door, as El Cheeto is all those things, in addition to being a criminal and a cry-baby. But De Santis wouldn’t be fighting an artfully crafted fake front, a Potemkin Cheeto as it were, but the collective self-delusions of the cult of the Most Orange One (he has the best Orange, manypoeplesaythat).

    And that’s really, really, really, really, very hard.

  53. Sleeping Dog says:


    TFG may believe that an announcement will protect him from indictment, but if I wouldn’t take that side of a wager. Trump has been threatening violence on the part of his followers for several years, mostly this has resulted in pearl clutching by the institutionalists, but there is growing resolve to call his bluff. History has shown when the institutions don’t face down threats the institutions eventually lose.

    An indictment, followed by trump unleashing the mob, will result in violence but not a widespread insurrection. The R establishment will give lip service to supporting trump and feign outrage and then begin plotting for the post MAGAt era. Trump will be eaten by the monster that he’s created.


    And Desantis will do everything in his power to destroy Trump once he has what he wants.


    And with that I’m retiring to my garden. Enjoy your afternoon folks.

  54. Mister Bluster says:


    Anyone who knows me knows that I am a cat guy. No dogs for me. A quick count in my head comes up with at least a dozen felines that have owned me through the years. When I spent 16 years living with “old what’s her name?” we had at least five cats at any given time. When my momcat had kittens that added four more to the menagerie.
    Before I met (what was her name?) I lived with my cat Buffy* in what had been the servants quarters attached to the back of an old two story house that had been chopped up into apartments. The house had an old coal burner that took up most of the basement and relied on convection to get the heat distributed throughout the ducts. My “bedroom” was about as far from the furnace as it could be and still be in the same town. On the coldest nights I tried to get Buffy to sleep on the bed but she would have none of that. She slept right on the vent on the floor and soaked up the trickle of heat that should have “filled” the room.
    I piled on the blankets.

    *Disclaimer: This was in the ’70s. She was not named after any vampire killer.

  55. Kathy says:

    @Sleeping Dog:

    If I were one of Benito’s lawyers, I’d advise him to memorize the following:

    Judge, jury, lawyer, gavel, prison.

  56. daryl and his brother darryl says:

    Apparently Musk spoke directly to Putin just before proposing that Ukraine cede territory to Russia, via Tweet.
    IANAL but, if true, I believe this is in violation of the Logan Act.
    At minimum it makes him a Russian Asset (willingly working for a foreign government for ideological reasons).
    Any mention of the man from here forward should read; Russian Asset, Elon Musk.

  57. CSK says:

    @Sleeping Dog:
    I can’t foresee a happy ending to however 2024 shakes out. If Trump wins, it’s over. If he loses, it’s because the Democrats cheated and all hell promptly breaks loose.

    I think I’m feeling discouraged.

  58. Just nutha says:

    @Mister Bluster: Was she named after Buffy St. Marie then?

  59. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Divya Kumar

    Outside Sen. Ben Sasse’s moderated forum to meet with students, hundreds have gathered protesting Sasse as the sole finalist in UF’s presidential search, citing his previous public statements on same-sex marriage and the search sealed from the public among reasons.

    The woke mob strikes again.

  60. Michael Cain says:

    Re Florida vs DC on the papers charges… I would think it would be charged and tried in DC whether for the classified documents or the Presidential Records Act. The theft of both happened in DC. He just happens to also be guilty of transporting stolen goods across state lines. The rules for search warrants are quite different and required going to a Florida court.

  61. dazedandconfused says:


    State police will check the paperwork of the Feds, and if it’s in order walk away.

  62. dazedandconfused says:

    Trump and DeSantis are like two male skunks contending for dominance, warily circling each other…contemplating battle and MAD.

  63. daryl and his brother darryl says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl:
    Shortly after this phone call and tweet Ukrainian troops reported outages of their Starlink communication devices on the frontline, which harmed their efforts to liberate territory from Russian forces.
    Elon Musk, a Russian Asset, owns Space-X which makes the Starlink terminals.

  64. Mister Bluster says:

    @Just nutha:..Was she named after Buffy St. Marie then?

    Don’t know. I adopted her from a housemate who was in a jam and could not take care of her. Buffy traveled with me and four other guys and a tomcat named Quiz on our hippie pilgrimage from Sleepytown to San Francisco in ’74 and returned to the midwest with me a year later.
    Quiz was a black and white cat. The upper part of his back was black with a perfect hook of a question mark in white. Just below the hook was white fur with a perfectly placed black dot.

  65. Just nutha says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: So my curiosity a few days ago wasn’t misplaced. Good to know.

  66. daryl and his brother darryl says:

    Firebrand Madison Cawthorn seems to have disappeared since getting beat in his primary.
    He has missed 86 votes and his offices are not staffed.
    FEC paperwork from the end of June said he had about $305,000 in outstanding debt and about $1,500 in cash on hand.

  67. CSK says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl:

    Nobody seems to give a damn what becomes of Cawthorn, especially his former colleagues. He’s $300,000 in debt and has $1500 on hand.

  68. JohnSF says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl:
    I tend to think Kamil Galeev’s assessment of Musk is closer; he’s simply a historically illiterate tech-bro type.
    A “non-violent entrepreneur” who is used to a society where violence is socially marginal, and the rulers are generally lawful, and certainly respectful of billionaires.
    And, of course, used to everyone telling him how insightful he is.
    He is just out of his context when faced with an man of force, like Putin, in a state system where the law is secondary to the will of the rulers.
    It’s not even like dealing with a western mobster: in most situations criminals take care to stay off the radar of the state; in Russia the state itself can be as criminal as is convenient.

    His instinct, his whole experience is “a rational deal can be made, based on mutual benefit”
    It’s like trying to teach a shark to play water polo.
    Unlikely to end well for the tutor.

  69. CSK says:
  70. dazedandconfused says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl:
    Reports are mixed on that, and it should be remembered it was Musk who set it up for the Ukrainians in the first place. Temporary Starlink outages seem from a cursory review to be fairly common occurrences.

    I rather suspect Musk is being just a businessman in this, not a Russian asset. The war creates difficulties in supply chains and markets. For pure businesspeople, who only care about money, any way of ending the war is good. IOW, he’s a dork.

  71. Tony W says:

    @dazedandconfused: It is possible that Trump and DeSantis will split the crazy vote – which might make room for a sane republican to consolidate the nomination. That might be Liz Cheney’s strategy.

  72. KM says:


    Rules of Acquisition #34
    War is good for business

    Rules of Acquisition #35
    Peace is good for business.

    It depends on what type of business, really and who you are doing business with. Mr. Narcissist thinks he’ll be big no matter what but it wouldn’t hurt to suck up to the autocrat. After all, if Ukraine wins he’ll still have a shot in a fair economy but if Russia takes it, cronyism counts. Add in his natural tendency to authoritarianism & noblesse oblige towards us peons and it’s easy to see why it’s 50/50 on if Starlink “issues” are organic or not.

  73. daryl and his brother darryl says:


    …it should be remembered it was Musk who set it up for the Ukrainians in the first place.

    Don’t ask that anyone try to follow Musk with logic but I can easily see one action as business and the other as ideological.
    In either case he ought to be receiving a visit from law enforcement.

    ‘The President is the sole organ of the nation in its external relations, and its sole representative with foreign nations.’

  74. Kathy says:


    Not uglier than the Florida Cheeto.

    BTW, the cheese dust is actual cheese, or derived from it at any rate. It began decades ago in experiments to dehydrate cheese for preservation purposes in military meals. It can’t be reconstituted as cheese, but it worked to season junk food.

  75. CSK says:

    I learn something new every day at OTB.

  76. JohnSF says:

    Re Starlink: it was not set up by Musk for Ukraine entirely out of the goodness of his Musky heart.
    The US put up at least $3 million; and apparently several EU states also made some payments.
    The finance is obscure; and so are Space X’s costs.

    But I seriously doubt anyone at SpaceX, including Musk, is foolish enough to stage a service outage and expect governments just to smile benevolently.
    If anyone has been so foolish, it may be time for a who/whom lesson.

  77. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl:

    ‘The President is the sole organ of the nation in its external relations, and its sole representative with foreign nations.’

    Musk: “So Vlad and I were shooting the shit on the phone the other day and he brought up some things that he would find acceptable.”

    Who says Musk was doing anything more than what he always does which is make noises while flapping his gums? That is hardly representing the US in it’s external relations.

  78. CSK says:

    Angela Lansbury, 96, has died. RIP.

  79. Neil Hudelson says:

    @Kathy: @CSK:

    Just FYI you can buy said cheese dust in bulk off of amazon, even changing the variety. If one happens to have toddlers who love the crappy blue box mac n’ cheese, bulk cheese powder allows one to substitute in whole grain or lentil pasta without the kids catching on.

    I might be the only OTBer in this situation, but perhaps a lurker also has to deal with toddlers’ palates.

  80. Gustopher says:

    @Neil Hudelson: I expect at least a few regulars have toddler palates themselves.

    Just law of averages, not thinking of specific people. There’s got to be a Kraft Mac&Cheese with hotdogs boiled with the pasta, seasoned with ketchup person here.

  81. Mister Bluster says:

    @CSK:..Angela Lansbury

    I know nothing about her other than her films and TV. But this photo of her that I discovered reminds me so much of a gal I spent some quality time with 40+ years ago got me to watching Murder, She Wrote whenever I had the chance.

  82. CSK says:


    It’s definitely not me.

  83. daryl and his brother darryl says:


    But I seriously doubt anyone at SpaceX, including Musk, is foolish enough to stage a service outage and expect governments just to smile benevolently.

    I think we see every single day, in this country, why Musk feels he can operate with impertinence…including, but not limited to, his manipulation of the stock market.
    Nothing is ever going to happen to the world’s richest being, no matter what he or his company does.
    Try selling single cigarettes, while black, though.

  84. Kathy says:

    @Neil Hudelson:

    I like mixing cheese in various sauces. It’s something to think about.

    I’d never heard of lentil pasta, though.

  85. grumpy realist says:

    If this actually lands in a law court, I foresee much merriment from those of us working in IP….

    (Aside from the, erm, fact that Italy ain’t France and unless there’s some EU legislation covering this there’s not much Italy can do about it….)

  86. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Neil Hudelson: Slick move dude! 😀 And thanks for the tip. I like that kind of mac’n’cheeze, but would rather have elbows, fusilli, bowties, or whatnot.

  87. daryl and his brother darryl says:


    Who says Musk was doing anything more than what he always does which is make noises while flapping his gums? That is hardly representing the US in it’s external relations.

    I feel that I was clear that Musk, a US citizen, was acting as a Russian Asset meddling/interfering in the external relations of the United States.
    Look – you all want to excuse his actions. Fine. That’s what got us Trump.
    For me the lesson of the former guy is that these kind of people have to be dealt with BEFORE they do immense damage, not after when it is too late.

  88. Michael Reynolds says:

    In re yesterday’s comment thread: my take on @Lounsbury is that sometimes I think he’s right, and sometimes I think he’s wrong. A fairly universal reality of opinion writing.

    His writing style is specific, recognizable, which is a good thing in a writer. He has a ‘voice.’ I strongly suspect there’s an element of tongue-in-cheek, a joke not everyone is getting. (Or maybe I’m over-analyzing.) Sometimes he’s an asshole, something he and I share, along with a few others here. I’d have found the condescension more irritating when I was younger and less secure. Now I find it entertaining.

    IMO he’s a positive addition to the OTB commentariat and I enjoy reading him. He brings some knowledge and some strong opinions and some style. I’d hate to see us adopt a sort of house style to which everyone adhered. I like that his voice is different from @MarkedMan or @StormyDragon or me, for that matter. I’d suggest people be less quick to be triggered, but I don’t think @Lounsbury would really like that at all.

    All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players.

  89. Gustopher says:

    @CSK: I suspect foul play.

  90. Gustopher says:

    @Michael Reynolds: The fucking git has no respect for other people. It’s not that he’s often wrong, or that he has a distinctive voice, or that there’s a joke that others aren’t getting, or that he’s a curmudgeonly asshole, he simply doesn’t respect people.

    He’s not complicated, he’s just a fucking git.

  91. MarkedMan says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    Sometimes he’s an asshole, something he and I share, along with a few others here.

    Oh, I don’t think we have to share. There is plenty to go around…

  92. daryl and his brother darryl says:

    CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) — A spacecraft that plowed into a small, harmless asteroid millions of miles away succeeded in shifting its orbit, NASA said Tuesday in announcing the results of its save-the-world test.

    Do these people never watch movies? No good can come of this…

  93. JohnSF says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl:
    Not a few very rich men have thought similarly, and got crosswise of a State (not a US state, I mean: a national government) on something of vital interest to the State.
    Such people often receive a sharp lesson on the difference between being wealthy and being a Power.
    The US is somewhat safer to annoy in this regard, being so legalistic.
    Whereas only a total idiot would cross, say, the French, or the Israelis, in such a manner.

    But I suspect even the US might be liable to a bit of a sense of humour failure on a matter impinging upon national security and the interests of an ally.

  94. JohnSF says:

    One thing about el Louns:
    I suspect he is far more used to dealing with Brits than Americans, and we tend, at least on occasion, to be ruder and cruder by orders of magnitude than most Americans.

    Second thing: this is just my feeling, but, as I think I’ve said before, I suspect English might not be his first language.
    (If I’m mistook, Lounsbury, and you’re reading this: my apologies. But it’s a spidy tingle thing, LOL)

  95. grumpy realist says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl: Here’s the results from the DART test.

    Now the main problem is seeing the damn thing in time that we can actually do something about it….

  96. Michael Reynolds says:

    Indeed. My own sense of humor is more similar to the Brit style – punch up not down, droll, insulting (piss-taking), self-deprecating, non-confessional and digressive. But I don’t do the ‘silly’ that’s a big part of Brit humor, sorry, humour.

    I’m one of a very small number of Americans genuinely upset at the cancellation of Mock the Week.

  97. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Kathy: I’ve only seek lentil and chickpea pasta recently. I assume it’s made from lentil or chickpea flour. Back in the early days of gluten free, chickpea flour was going to be a go to substitute. I don’t know what happened.

  98. JohnSF says:

    Just glancing at yesterdays forum, and came across references to Spanish government attitudes to Native Americans.
    Reminds me of a piece of historic trivia that always intrigued me.
    That the Aztec heirs of Emperor Moctezuma became the Dukes of Moctezuma de Tultengo
    And ended up moving to Spain.
    The current duke is Juan José Marcilla de Teruel-Moctezuma y Valcárcel.

    As a Duke, he is also a “”Grandee of Spain, a distinction granting further privileges, essentially to be treated as if he were a distant cousin of the king (for instance, the right to wear a hat in the presence of the sovereign).

    Not the only example either; a lot of Mixtec nobility got Spanish titles and land grants as well.

  99. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Michael Reynolds: @Gustopher: @JohnSF: I find him more in the “bloviation” category a fair amount of the time. Of course, I see that same quality in Reynolds’ missives sometimes and probably hold my own with the best of them as well.

  100. JohnSF says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker:
    I yield to none, sir, in my capacity for bloviation.

    I am indeed Bloviatosaurus rex.

  101. Gustopher says:

    @JohnSF: the picture of the Palace of Montezuma in Spain referenced in your link is… sad?

    When I think of Palace, I think of a level of grandeur where the recycling bins are not visible. Maybe a garden and some decent windows? But, definitely keep the recycling bins out of site.

    (Ok, I think they are the neighbor’s recycling bins, but somehow that seems worse)

  102. Gustopher says:

    @Kathy: They keep trying to find new ingredients to make pasta healthier and/or gluten free. I’ve definitely heard of, if not tried both chickpea and lentil.

    I kind of like whole wheat pasta, with it’s slightly nutty flavor (good with a strong sauce), and will go through periods where it is my default. I did just realize while tapping this that I am out, but that’s not because I don’t buy it, it’s just because I have eaten all of it.

    I’ll try to remember to add a few of the novelty pastas next time I’m ordering groceries. Lentil seems like it should be too strong. Really want to try.

  103. Kathy says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker:

    Basic pasta is wheat flour and water, and nothing else. A common variety has added egg, and lately you can find colorful shapes with added vegetables.

    I’ve used lentil flour in soups as a thickener instead of corn starch, especially in bean and lentil soups. It never occurred to me it was used for making pasta.

    And now I’m thinking about some kind of cream of bean and lentil soup…

  104. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Gustopher: There’s got to be a Kraft Mac&Cheese with hotdogs boiled with the pasta, seasoned with ketchup person here.

    Hand slowly raises up from the group W bench…

  105. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl: Look – you all want to excuse his actions. Fine. That’s what got us Trump.

    Oh fer chisssakes, I despise musk. If you haven’t learned that by now, you haven’t been been paying attention. Either that or you are an idiot.

    My ONLY point is that proving what you are accusing him of is f’n impossible with the available evidence. Like it or not, we live in America where freedom of speech and freedom of association are still guaranteed by the constitution.

    Let me repeat, “Like it or not.”

  106. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Michael Reynolds: For what ever reason, Lounsbury insults people for no reason whatsoever. He could easily express a difference of opinion without insulting other people and yet he chooses to.

    I enjoy reading him. He brings some knowledge and some strong opinions and some style.

    I agree he brings some knowledge, some strong opinions, but his only style is that of a complete asshole.

    but I don’t think @Lounsbury would really like that at all.

    Considering the fact that he doesn’t give a rat’s ass what other people like, I feel no need to consider his feelings in my replies to him whatsoever. If he doesn’t like receiving the same treatment from me that he so freely gives gives out to others, fuck him. Man up asshole.

  107. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Michael Reynolds: punch up not down, droll, insulting (piss-taking), self-deprecating, non-confessional and digressive.

    Absolutely none of which applies to Lounsbury. He punches down at those he considers his lessers at every opportunity, there is nothing droll about his insulting, he has never once been self deprecating (people here have complained about my self deprecating, trust me, I make fun at my own expense on a regular basis) I’m not sure what you mean by “non-confessional and digressive” but all I’ve ever gotten from him is a person so full of himself that he can’t even admit to the slightest inkling of self doubt.

    In other words, he’s never faced somebody holding a baseball bat. Trust me, that is a thing that makes one rethink the decisions that led to that moment.

  108. Just Another Ex-Republican says:

    Musk is just another example of a person who has been very successful in one thing thinking that makes him a genius in all things. Combined with more than a touch of “rich petulant a-hole who can’t handle being told no or that he’s wrong”. At least unlike our former President he has actually helmed (really don’t want to get into the weeds of founded vs bought vs built vs govt contracts here) some very successful businesses, some of which are doing some very very good things for the world at large, even though he’s a s****y boss.

    But he’s hardly a Russian agent.

  109. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: In a past life, I used to make something that Luddite christened “Ewww, what is THAT glop” made from boxed mac’n’cheeze, lightly chopped broccoli, mushrooms, onions, garlic, and sometimes a few green beans sauteed in the fat from the breakfast links that I sliced into rounds. Stirred all together, it looked like a dog’s dinner, but it was tasty. And wholesome (more or less [eyeroll emoji]).

    I would take the leftovers for my lunch the next day. It could be eaten either cold or reheated in the microwave if I had time (and everybody else wasn’t also needing to use it–we had a crew of 15 or 16 so you had to get there early to microwave).

  110. dazedandconfused says:

    @daryl and his brother darryl:

    Arrest Musk? I can’t abide the idea of thought policing.

  111. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    From my recipe above, I omitted the most important ingredient: steamed frozen lima beans*. My mistake.

    *Baby limas are best, but the larger Fordhook limas work well, too.

  112. Jax says:
  113. Gustopher says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: There’s nothing wrong with liking what you like…

    @Just nutha ignint cracker: Lima beans excepted, of course.

  114. Gustopher says:

    @Just Another Ex-Republican:

    But he’s hardly a Russian agent.


    He’s hitched himself very firmly to the anti-woke agenda, and that’s a path to the alt-right rabbit hole of nonsense that gets to Putin and Trump worship.

    I think it went from hanging out with the edges of that crowd to “keep an open mind” to beginning to really embrace it when his kid came out as trans, and then his girlfriend/wife left him for Chelsea Manning.

    Maybe he will swerve in a better direction, or stagnate before getting there, but I think he’s on his way to becoming just another right wing freak show.

  115. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Jax: Well, the lyrics aren’t much, but it has a good beat and you can dance to it, so I’ll give it an 80, Jax. 😉

  116. Gustopher says:

    @Jax: That was lovely and heartfelt and had an earnestness that is often missing from modern music.

  117. Gustopher says:


    Rick Caruso, when introduced as white: “I’m Italian… that’s Latin.”

    Italianx is the preferred term.

  118. wr says:

    @Michael Reynolds: “His writing style is specific, recognizable, which is a good thing in a writer. ”

    Yes, recognizable. To me, not in a good way. I hate writing that uses big, impressive words in order to hide the actual meaning. And in his case it’s even worse, since half the time he is using the wrong word, or a word that is close to the word he wants but means something different. I find his prose to sound like a bad parody of academic writing. It is pompous, joyless and ugly, and I’d find it tiresome even on those rare occasions when I agree with him.

  119. Neil Hudelson says:


    Yup, verging into Orwell’s “Politics and the English Language” territory.

    I haven’t been too active in open threads recently, and I’ve missed what caused yesterday’s (?) dust-up. I find Louns’s default mode is to be an insufferable asshole. But, unlike insufferable assholes of the past, he also bring original thinking and knowledge of fields outside my comfort zone. More often than not I find his comments to be more than a bit sad–if he could resist the urge to try to prove he’s smarter than everyone around him (often making obvious factual errors while trying to prove he’s smart), he’d find a very welcoming community willing to engage him.

    If you’re reading this, Lounsbury, we know you are smart. That’s kind of the OTB commentariot’s schtick–its a collection of people with above-average intelligence. You don’t have to prove it to us, you can just exist. And you definitely don’t have to prove it to us by insulting others and looking the fool while doing it.

  120. Matt says:

    @Neil Hudelson: Oh no doubt the dude has some great knowledge and insights that I feel enriched by occasionally. My problem is he reminds me of a certain kind of troll that spends far too much effort conjuring the largest words they can find to talk down to others.