Thursday’s Forum
OTB relies on its readers to support it. Please consider helping by becoming a monthly contributor through Patreon or making a one-time contribution via PayPal. Thanks for your consideration.
FILED UNDER: Open Forum
On yesterday’s forum, there was a question about why the Netflix version of 3 Body Problem had moved from the China of the novel to (mostly) the western world. Kathy explained it thus:
“What I read is the show runners wanted a more Western oriented cast and story(so woke!).”
But, with all respect to Kathy, I think that’s really unfair to everyone involved. The fact is, there was no way that Netflix was going to spend $20 million per episode on a show that took place entirely in China, with a completely Chinese cast, logically all speaking Mandarin. This show needed to be a global hit, and it’s unlikely that a series perceived as entirely Chinese would make it. So it wasn’t “wokeness,” it was economics.
That said, moving the events outside of China — while leaving in China the only events that actually had to happen there — does absolutely no damage to the story.
If anyone finds themselves offended by the idea of internationalizing this story, you can always watch the all-Mandarin, shot in China version — all 30 hours are streaming on Peacock.
But that one is actually less faithful to the book, since it eliminates all the scenes set in the Cultural Revolution… which provide the initial motivation for everything that happens in the story…
@wr:
Pro tip: 9 times out of ten, when you see me use an exclamation point, I’m being sarcastic or ironic.
Multiple exclamation points mixed with 1 is mockery.
I couldn’t help myself and broke out in laughter at the absurdity:
UN picks Saudi Arabia to lead women’s rights forum despite ‘abysmal’ record
God has a wicked sense of humor.
The grave mistakes of the original America First, and how the new one will re-create the global disorder of the 1930s:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/03/28/robert-kagan-trump-ukraine-america-first-isolationism/
@wr:
Author John Lecarre wrote what is termed the Karla trilogy in the mid to late 1970s.
The three books were
Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy
The Honorable Schoolboy
Smiley’s People
Two of them were made into BBC films starring Alec Guiness as George Smiley- TTSS and SP
TTSS was also made into a 2012 film starring Gary Oldman
Why was THS never made into a film?
Most of the book was set in Hong Kong and Southeast Asia* just before and at the time the latter fell to the Communists in 1975. It would be a very expensive endeavor to film and that’s why the BBC took a pass on it. THS has a very complicated plot and an ending where the good guys (The Brits) both win and lose.
Without anyone cheating, looking it up on the internet, what actor played Karla in Smiley’s People? It was a tiny role,
*- There are significant parts of the book set in Cambodia, Laos, and Thailand
@Kathy: Sorry for misunderstanding your intent!
And while we’re on the subject of expensive science fiction shows, have you seen Apple’s Constellation?
I have yet to see the last episode, so I can’t tell if it’s going to hang together, but so far I’ve found it riveting…
@Bill Jempty: I have long regretted the lack of an Alec Guiness-led Honourable Schoolboy. Money probably did play a big part in the decision, but also, as I recall, Smiley has a much smaller part in this book than in the other two, and for some reason a lot of people think it’s the weakest of the trilogy…
@wr:
I’ve paused my Apple subscription until season 2 of Severance comes out.
It’s been decades since I felt I had to watch every Sci-Fi show out. Maybe because these days there are so many.
@wr:
Smiley’s part in THS is smaller than in the other two Karla’s books. I think Le Carre once said the book could have been written without having Smiley in it.
THS is the weakest of the three Karla book. Lecarre’s plot is overly dense even for him. Lecarre is also a little over the top with Westerby suddenly coming up with the grenade in the petrol bit.
You know who would have been a perfect actress for Connie Sachs? Maggie Smith.
@wr:
Netflix has put out the $20M number, but it’s not true. They’re embarrassed by the real number. I have a friend who was on the accounting team on that show. They actually spent close to $35M, per episode, which is INSANE. And it’s one of the reasons the great contraction is taking place. Apple+ just spent close to $400M on “Masters of the Air”, which breaks down to about $44M per episode. Again. INSANE.
@EddieInCA:
I was disappointed by Masters of the Air, but not surprised. Structurally it was just impossible. It’s mission, mission, mission, ad infinitum. They looked for a way around that and veered off into a POW story line, that just felt odd. And the leads were not compelling.
I think their best bet would have been to take it back to recruitment and training, establish the characters, then walk them forward. Same with the Tuskegee airmen, where the more compelling story is how they got into the war, less what they did when in combat.
@EddieInCA:
You’d think for such amounts of money, they could have done the R&D for the golden helmets, and revolutionized the world in the process 😉
I gave up my account on the app formerly known as Twitter following the Musk takeover, but I still see some of what’s happening there when users on Threads repost stuff. Apparently, quite a few right wingers are eating their own, much to the shock of those being eaten:
—The conservative satirical site Babylon Bee made a joke about “inbred” white supremacists, and now is getting slammed by their readership.
—Ben Shapiro of the Daily Wire fired Candace Owens due to anti-Semitic remarks she has made, and is likewise being slammed by his readership.
—Anti-CRT guy Chris Rufo wrote a post decrying antisemitism in the conservative movement, and is now being attacked for it.
Amazing how these folks can pander to racists and then be surprised when their followers turn out to also be anti-Semitic.
Here is something from one of my newsletters, read it all, fascinating:
There is more, but I’ll stop here.
I think this establishes, on the record, that Trump lawyers’ efforts to delay are frivolous and in bad faith, so I think more attempts at delay will be difficult to pull off, with this judge.
@Michael Reynolds: Haven’t seen it, but if they wanted to get right to the action, intermingling “present day” with flashbacks might have been a way to go.
@wr:
I had a part in that convo too. I understand changes will be/have to be made to the source material. I get there are artistic and economic reasons to do so. I don’t have a problem with that. Without going full Reynolds, I think the problem for me was, at least in the first two episodes it felt very very White Savior-y. Like, [booming announcer voice] “here are the White Heroes come to save the world! And here are some Asians doing math or being dirty!” Now I would watch Benedict Wong do just about anything. He’s amazing. He felt small and stifled. I could be WILDLY wrong with this whole take, but that’s what the vibes were for me.
@EddieInCA:
That is bonkers. Again, I contrast that with The Gentleman, which also wasn’t particularly good, but it was compelling enough to make me want to watch the whole season, maybe watch a second, and get bangs. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that didn’t strike me as super expensive to make.
@charontwo: Wow. Just… wow.
@Beth:
Among the Brits trying to save the world, there’s a Chinese woman, a black man, three white men, a Chinese detective, and what may be a Spaniard woman played by a Mexican actor.
So more like half-white savioury
@Beth:
Guy Ritchie is one of those directors that understands he needs to stay within his budgets to stay working. It was made for a reasonable price. I liked the feature better, but the series worked for me, and am looking forward to season 2. It’s been great watching Theo James grow as an actor.
@Kathy:
Lol, my snarky response is: how do we expect the Brits to save the world, they can’t even save themselves*. Like, I’m willing to entertain some underlying unconscious bias or even racism on my part. I’m very much willing to accept that I might be wrong and am open to criticism on that point, except as to *. The vibes I got from the two episodes that I got were that the white guy from GoT was going to save the world, Benedict Wong was going to be grumpy, and the Chinese Lady was willing to kill everyone on the planet so long as the Communists got fucked too. And none of it was particularly compelling. And again, just for reference, I am a Star Wars fangirl. I am willing to accept SO MUCH BS, but this was off the charts BS, with a dull vanilla swirl.
@charontwo:
I once got accused of lying to a judge in open court. I didn’t, I misspoke and he jump to the most absurd conclusion. It was scary as hell. He was frothing at the mouth and the pro se defendants were egging him on. At one point he was demanding that I report myself to the Bar to get disbarred for lying. I was lucky that once I got some wits about me I remembered there was a court reporter there and was able to get her to read what was said and I was able to correct the understanding. The damage was done though. He went back to chambers to cool off and then had us come back there where he apologized to me. In the privacy of his chambers, not in the full courtroom where he called me a liar. It was awful.
*I am white hot angry at my dad right now and the entirety of the English are gonna get the fallout.
@Beth:
There are two Chinese ladies, Ye and Cheng. One is a victim of the cultural revolution, the other is not.
I’m not enamored of the story thus far*, but 1) it’s watchable, 2) it has good production values, 3) Eiza Gonzalez is cute with that hairstyle, 4) Wade is an intellectual Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark, minus the money (though his unnamed agency seems to be able to draw on a very large budget), mixed with Robert Heinlein.
And there’s Wong.
*Too many magical elements in allegedly hard science fiction. Real hard science fiction ought to limit itself to one such element (usually a form of FTL travel).
@charontwo:
Thanks.
Here’s the link to the whole thing
I remember a while back I saw the Jet Li movie “Hero”. Gorgeous film: well acted, fight choreography that seemed more like ballet than actual fighting, a brilliant use of color in the production design, an interestingly post-modern narrative where we’re seeing the same events played over through the eyes or imaginations of different people.
It should have been one of my favorite movies of all time. Except it ended up horrifying me because it was using all this art to create fascist propaganda about why an authoritarian police state is actually a good thing that someone should eagerly sacrifice their lives to.
I’ve been avoiding Three Body Problem for the same reason. I’ve read the summary and it’s clearly a sci-fi story about why you should want an authoritarian police state to wall you off from the rest of humanity for safety.
Just to give MR an aneurysm, I was reading an article about why sci-fi readership is declining, and in a tangent it mentioned “Adult YA” as a competing genre that’s taken away some of its readers, and I found it hilarious that YA is a specific genre rather than a target audience, such that a book can be YA but not intended for readers that are YA.
@Stormy Dragon: “Hero” is one of the very few “rebellious” plots acceptable to the government. Director after director makes there version of the story with different actors and a different era of history.
@Stormy Dragon:
Out of all fairness, books about space aliens aren’t intended for space aliens.
@Kingdaddy:
The GOP apparently took this as an action item to remove those tenets from their churches, their government, and their civilization.
@EddieInCA: I thought it sounded low, but I just went by Google…
As for Masters of the Air, Peter Biskind’s new book is full of astonishing dirt on its making. Apparently Apple decided their creative executive should be making all the decisions, not anyone with actual television experience, and he was so awful that not only did showrunner Graham Yost walk away, but so did Tom Hanks and his partner.
Bankman-Freid, however that’s pronounced, is going away for the next quarter century.
He will appeal both the conviction and sentence. I don’t see why not. What’s he got to lose?
@Beth: “I could be WILDLY wrong with this whole take, but that’s what the vibes were for me.”
I don’t think it’s a matter of being right or wrong. I happen to disagree with your take, but that doesn’t make my opinion any more of less valid than yours.
@Bill Jempty: I kind of wonder if adults are consuming YA stuff, desperate for the old people in our real world to die off already.
The election has come down to a pair of octogenarians, let’s watch kids save the world, usually from old people.
@Stormy Dragon: “I’ve been avoiding Three Body Problem for the same reason. I’ve read the summary and it’s clearly a sci-fi story about why you should want an authoritarian police state to wall you off from the rest of humanity for safety.”
Actually, the people who want the authoritarian police state are clearly the villains.
@Gustopher:
Like Wesley Crusher on TNG.
Texas Trump voter: I’m leaving the Republican Party because of Trump, and, by the way, Hillary was right about everything.
Then CNN brings him on, to explain further.
@Bill Jempty:
Yes, but YA was always explicitly the target audience, not the subject matter. I can see that “books about teenagers written for adults” could be a genre — but you shouldn’t call that genre “adult YA”.
Panic in MAGAville. One of the village idiots, Charlie Kirk:
“Tonight will be the largest fundraiser in political history – $25,000,000 in hard money raised in a single evening for Biden.
This is more raised in one night than Trump raised the entire month of February.
Democrats are beginning to fine tune their messaging, and they have a standing army of 5,000+ full-time organizers on the ground in the key states.
We are outgunned and will be outspent. The polls are tightening.”
It’s also more money than the RNC has raised total over the past several months. But no worries, Lara Trump is on top of it I’m sure.
@Kathy:
He should become pen pals with Elizabeth Holmes.
@Beth:
I was once accused of being, “the master criminal with the all-girl gang.” Scary in a flattering way. Some years later the guy was removed from the bench.
@Stormy Dragon:
‘Adult YA’ aka ‘New Adult’, has been a kind of back and forth, is it real or isn’t it, thing in the kidlit world. No one seems to know. To me ‘YA’ is a market I sell (mostly sold) into, the definition of same has never interested me. I don’t read YA, or kidlit generally, I just write for that market because, frankly, they paid better than adult. Also kid fans are less work than adults.
@DK:
Also, Biden’s legal bills are way, way lower.
Sitting in the stands for opening day. Deep sigh.
@Sleeping Dog:
He could also ask to have Lardass as his roommate. but that will take a long time.
@DK: ““Tonight will be the largest fundraiser in political history – $25,000,000 in hard money raised in a single evening for Biden.”
And Midtown is insane with security. My building’s back door is on 58th right above Sixth Avenue — Radio City is at 51 and Sixth. There are barricades along every streets, dump trucks everywhere, cops at every corner (and they’re not looking at their phones, as they do when they’re on subway duty). I’ve even got Secret Service outside my building!
@Gustopher: Good point!
Here are some thoughts on Trump and his MAGA Bible:
http://www.salon.com/2024/03/28/bibles-make-a-mockery-of-christianity–and-thats-exactly-why-maga-will-eat-them-up
@Michael Reynolds:
I write LGBTQ science fiction and the last time I read one of these tales is well over a decade ago.
Earthlings should be wary of the books that the aliens give them to read.
@wr: Years ago, I was in New York for depositions. When I was finished, I walked outside to see the streets all barricaded and New York’s finest everywhere. I went up to one to ask what was going on. Without turning around he said in his best New York accent “It’s that goddam Dan Quayle.”
@MarkedMan: Already? When’s opening pitch?
@DK:
Kirk is the one who said this past Tuesday that if Trump loses in November, “the next day we fight.”
I assume he’s speaking literally, not figuratively.
@Mister Bluster:
I KNEW you’d post that even before I checked.
If anyone cares, the answer to who played Karla in the BBC productions of John Lecarre George Smiley novels, it is Patrick Stewart.
@Bill Jempty: I cheated and looked it up. My source also said the “part” was 2 scenes (one in each movie) and no lines. This may well be the ultimate in obscure movie trivia.
I’m waiting for Trump to market bottles of water from the Delaware River.
@CSK: but we should take him seriously, not literally.
@Gustopher:
How about seriously and literally?
@CSK:..my Twilight Zone…
It can only be coincidence that Rod Serling died in 1975 in the same hospital where I was born in 1948. Strong Memorial Hospital in Rochester, New York.
And I can only credit to random chance that Rod Serling’s friend and eulogist, the Reverend John F. Hayward (WikiP) was the instructor of my Comparative Religions class when I was in college (1969) and was also the Unitarian Clergyman who officiated my wedding for $50 in 1995.
@Mister Bluster:
Okay, cue The Twilight Zone theme…Doo-doo-doo-doo, doo-doo-doo-doo.
@just nutha: Sorry, just saw this. We are up 11-1 in the 8th
@CSK:
Lol, I can barely lift my arms above my head and I could beat Charlie Kirk’s ass in a fight. There are some really scary dudes on the Right. Hard core terrifying men. And they are lead by a clump of peed on toilet paper. Put Daddy Reynolds in one of those ratan chairs from the 70’s with a cigar and a dirty look and Kirk would piss his pants.
Like, it amuses me to no end that men like Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk think that that if their Rightwing Utopia suddenly exists, they will be in control, or rich, or powerful, or whatever delusional shit goes through their brains. Guys like them, or women like Candace Owens or Auntie Caitlyn, really don’t get what happens. They rub the wrong person the wrong way one time and it’s a helicopter ride out into the ocean. How many Putin allies are radioactive popsicles?
Holy crap, for grins I googled “1970s ratan chair” and came across this absolute unit going for the low price of $695. Marked down from $995.
https://thronekingdom.com/products/peacock-70-rattan-wicker-style-1-chair-natural?variant=41706460774588&stkn=de38d674981a&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwqpSwBhClARIsADlZ_TkL-LVxOqxGGSSXGLwohRVcxq_FmxH3wEuWOs9asoMKzzcBWwJRGjkaAr-_EALw_wcB
I want one so I can look like a high klass lunatic.
@Beth:
“…I could beat Charlie Kirk’s ass in a fight.”
He probably fears that, which is why he puts on a tough front.
Judge Merchan and his daughter aren’t covered by the gag order, and Trump is taking full advantage of that fact:
http://www.rawstory.com/trump-names-judges-daughter-loren/
You all, no doubt, will be glad to hear the Orioles won 11-3
Go Orioles!
I heard that there would be a moment of silence before first pitch for the victims of the Francis Scott Key bridge disaster.
@MarkedMan: Thanks! That answers my question. I had no idea that afternoon games were still a thing in baseball. Then again, it’s been almost 50 years since I went to a MLB game. It was the Seattle Pilots against some team I can’t remember. Luddite had gotten free tickets and we left early to avoid the post-game crush in the Pioneer Square bars.
Here come the Judge
So Trump’s mouthpiece Blanche worked in the SDNY office for 14 years and is subject to this brutal censure from the bench.
This leads me to wonder about the quality of Federal prosecutors throughout the Department of Justice.
Is Blanche really this dumb?
Did he really think he could get this past the judge without “a single cite to support that position”?
@Just nutha ignint cracker:..I had no idea that afternoon games were still a thing in baseball.
Wrigley Field in Chicago turned on the lights for night games in August of 1988. Before that all the Cubs home games were day games.
This year the Cubs will play 42 day games at home.
@CSK:
What is Charlie Kirk, 150lbs dripping wet maybe? That pipsqueak ain’t gonna fight nobody. Let’s be for real.
@Beth:
Lol But they cannot even control themselves. Like, who do they think they’re intimidating besides their beta male fanbase? Chile please. FOH
@DK:
I think Kirk meant “fight with firearms,” not fists. And he won’t be on the front line, you may rest assured.
@CSK: Ah. He’s one of the “liberals don’t own guns” people. FAFO.
Anyway, there’s not gonna be any front lines if Trump loses. Just angry, impotent social media posts. Maybe a few sad, ragtag, middle-aged terrorists a la Jan 6. But you can’t really fill out a successful army with geriatrics, obese hicks, and meth addicts.
@DK:
You forgot soft handed grifters.
Just finished ep 8 of 3 Body Problem.
Overall, meh.
And there’s this: solving the three body problem.
I may have spoiler comments later.
On other things, as we left work early today, I attempted the pineapple coconut ice cream (sorbet?) again. It went better, but not entirely well.
After about 15 minutes, it looked done. I let it run five minutes more just to make sure. Everything looked good. So I turned it off, managed to extract the paddle assembly, and at the bottom there was a puddle of slushy, not quite frozen mix of juice and coconut milk.
Maybe sorbets do need sugar to properly set, which would defeat the purpose of sugar free frozen treats entirely. Or maybe it needs actual cow milk. The attempts using dairy, frozen yogurt and vanilla ice cream, both worked perfectly, no leftover slush anywhere.
We’ll see.
@Michael Reynolds: “I was once accused of being, “the master criminal with the all-girl gang.””
Can we start calling you Dr. Goldfoot?
@Michael Reynolds:
I’m kind of sorry I missed that phase…
Kirk once visited the UC Berkeley campus, basically looking for trouble. When it found him, he came off looking like, to use an expression that was popular when I was a teenager, a total puss.