Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin Draw Large Crowd To Lincoln Memorial

Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin held a rally on the National Mall, but at times it sounded more like an old-time religious revival than a modern political rally.

The crowd estimate wars are likely to start up soon, and I don’t plan on engaging in them, but whatever the number there’s no denying that there was a large, enthusiastic crowd today for Glenn Beck’s “Restoring Honor” rally at the Lincoln Memorial:

WASHINGTON — Tens of thousands of people rallied at the steps of the Lincoln Memorial Saturday at an event organized by the conservative broadcaster Glenn Beck, who called for a religious rebirth in America at the site of Martin Luther King Jr.’s famous “I Have A Dream” speech 47 years ago to the day.

“Something that is beyond man is happening,” Mr. Beck in opening the event as the overwhelmingly white crowd thronged near the memorial grounds. “America today begins to turn back to God.”

Mr. Beck, a Fox News broadcaster who has been harshly critical of President Obama and Congressional Democrats, has come under attack for dishonoring the memory of Dr. King by staging the event on the anniversary of his speech, which was part of the civil rights movement’s March on Washington. Critics suggested Mr. Beck was trying to energize conservatives in advance of the coming midterm elections. Civil rights activists intended to march to the site of a King memorial being constructed nearby.

But while Tea Party activists and other conservatives have generally focused on fiscal issues and steered clear of social themes this year, Mr. Beck, in speeches Friday and Saturday, imbued his remarks with references to God and a need for a religious revival.

“For too long, this country has wandered in darkness,” said Mr. Beck, dressed in a shirt and tie on a sunny late-summer day. “This country has spent far too long worrying about scars and thinking about scars and concentrating on scars.”

Mr. Beck was followed by Sarah Palin, the former Republican vice presidential candidate and Alaska governor. She said that she had been asked, in keeping with the theme of the day, to focus not on politics, but to speak as the mother of a soldier.

“Say what you want to say about me, but I raised a combat vet and you can’t take that away from me,” Ms. Palin said.’

The religious overtones of the event are even more apparent when you read the Washington Times‘ take:

From the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, conservative broadcaster Glenn Beck told a crowd of tens of thousands of people Saturday that the U.S. has too long “wandered in darkness.”

His rally’s marquee speaker, Sarah Palin, praised “patriots” in the audience for “knowing never to retreat.”

The two champions of the tea party movement spoke from the very spot where Martin Luther King Jr. delivered his “I Have a Dream” speech 47 years ago. Some civil rights leaders who have denounced Beck’s choice of a venue staged a rival rally to honor King.

Palin, the 2008 GOP vice presidential nominee who may make a White House run in 2012, said activists must honor King’s legacy by paying tribute to the men and women who protect the United States in uniform.

Beck, pacing back and forth on the marble steps, said he was humbled by the size of the crowd, which stretched along the Washington Mall’s long reflecting pool nearly all the way to the Washington Monument.

“Something beyond imagination is happening,” he said. “America today begins to turn back to God.”

“For too long, this country has wandered in darkness,” said Beck, a Fox News host. He said it was now time to “concentrate on the good things in America, the things we have accomplished and the things we can do tomorrow.”

Notwithstanding Beck’s pre-rally statements that the rally was “non-political.,” what this rally was actually about, and what it means, largely depends on what side of the political aisle you sit on. For Beck and his fans, it was about “Restoring Honor” and, for a brief time, honoring America’s troops. For many on the left it’s seen as a slap in the face considering that it’s taking place on the anniversary of Martin Luther King’s “I Have A Dream” speech:

WASHINGTON – Broadcaster Glenn Beck and tea party activists have a right to rally in the nation’s capital but not to distort Martin Luther King Jr.’s vision, the Rev. Al Sharpton said Friday.

Sharpton described the demonstration planned for Saturday by Beck and his supporters as an anti-government rally advocating states’ rights. And he said that goes against the message in King’s famous “I Have a Dream” speech, in which the civil rights leader appealed to the federal government to ensure equality.

Beck’s “Restoring Honor” rally will be held at the Lincoln Memorial, where King delivered his speech exactly 47 years earlier. Beck and other organizers say the aim is to pay tribute to America’s military personnel and others “who embody our nation’s founding principles of integrity, truth and honor.” The broadcaster toured the site Friday as supporters cheered.

Sharpton wasn’t the only one upset with circumstance surrounding the event.

Sharpton, who is hardly a paragon of racial tolerance himself, is holding his own rally later this afternoon, with participants including the New Black Panther Party, and has reportedly been turned down in requests that a member of the King family join the event.

After listening to the Beck rally this morning, though, I think the charges of racism were clearly over the top. That doesn’t mean it wasn’t a political rally, though. Regardless of whatever Beck might say, the political undertones were rather obvious, and the degree to which it mixed religion and politics should quite honestly be disturbing to anyone who believes in the value of secularism in politics.

I’m not sure what the impact of this rally will be. I’m sure Beck has something more planned, he always seems to, stay tuned.

FILED UNDER: Religion, US Politics
Doug Mataconis
About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May 2010. Before joining OTB, he wrote at Below The BeltwayThe Liberty Papers, and United Liberty Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. rain of lead says:
  2. Herb says:

    “there’s no denying that there was a large, enthusiastic crowd today for Glenn Beck’s “Restoring Honor” rally at the Lincoln Memorial”

    A large, enthusiastic crowd of suckers.   Really?  Rallying behind a couple of narcissist Fox News media personalities?   Not exactly an intelligent move….

  3. john personna says:

    I haven’t followed it at all, but the Christian-military linking above seems worrying.

  4. floyd says:

    “”For many on the left it’s seen as a slap in the face considering that it’s taking place on the anniversary of Martin Luther King’s “I Have A Dream” speech:””
    “””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

    Seems appropriate, since “many on the left” have delivered  “a slap in the face” to that speach at every conceivable opportunity.

  5. Bob says:

    A crowd full of entitlement babies. Cool.
     

  6. ponce says:

    Better they give their money to small businesses and public transport than wingnut candidates.

  7. Pete says:

    Herb and Bob, your ignorance is on display.

  8. Herb says:

    Actually, Zels, you forgot one:  One of the Nuremberg Rallies was called the “Rally of Honor,” or Reichsparteitag der Ehre.


    Of course, the Nuremberg Rallies were official Nazi propaganda and the Glenn Beck rallies are…..a publicity stunt, so really it’s apples and oranges.

  9. JKB says:

    For many on the left it’s seen as a slap in the face considering that it’s taking place on the anniversary of Martin Luther King’s “I Have A Dream” speech:

    A bit of a disjointed moment for the left since many were just saying how people shouldn’t oppose things others have a right to do even if they feel it is a slap in the face.   It must be odd to operate without any self awareness, or for that matter, shame.

  10. Zelsdorf Ragshaft III says:

    I did not post the above comment.  Some Mother F**ker is a liar and is demeaning to me.  Mataconis, you better fix this or there will be legal consequences.  If there can be there wll be.  But then it is to be expected from the chicken schitts who infest this place.  For you on the left to claim Martin Luther King as one of yours is a rewrite of history.  King was a REPUBLICAN.  It is always been the left which wishes to enslave.  Sharpton is a race baiting coward who lies to enrich himself.  He cares not about his people.  King spoke of judging a man not by the color of his skin but by the content of his character.  It is obvious to anyone who reads this blog, there is a lack of character.  If you allow people to post in my name and you know the IP address is not mine you are as guilty as they are.  If white people are so stupid, why is it most of the inventions, medical advancements and science is the work of white people.  It was not whites who sold blacks into slavery.

  11. Zelsdorf Ragshaft III says:

    I am curious, which of you cowards posted the Hitler thing in my name?

  12. The IP addresses don’t match so I think it’s pretty clear you didn’t post that comment. I’ve placed it in moderation for the time being so it will not show up on the public comment thread.

    Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

  13. Pete says:

    Zels, what goes around comes around. Whoever did it is an immature coward. Those types of people eventually get what is coming to them.

  14. Eric Florack says:

    So, should we e commening on the smarts of the followers of Al Sharpton? Or is that off limits?
     
     

  15. Zelsdorf Ragshaft III says:

    Thank you Doug.  I got very upset, as you or anyone else would at this act.  I know my opinions are not alway congruent with those who post here, but for someone to try to besmerch my brand is a bit irritating to say the very least.  In fact, I have never had that happen before.
    Now on to the fun stuff.  Seems Al Sharpton had a rally, if you want to call it that, at the same time a Beck.  He drew approximately 3000 people to that event.  Estimates are in the neighborhood of 500 K for Beck’s rally.  I have to wonder if there were ot atleast 3000 persons of color at the Big tent.  The difference is those at Beck’s rally don’t keep score.

  16. JKB says:

    Sharpton seems confused.  His comment that Dr. Kings speech called up on white men in the federal government to give blacks their rights is wrong in so many ways.  Dr. King called upon America to rise to their obligation.  It is unfortunate that the federal government had to take action to force the Democrats to stop their oppressive actions.
     
    It is true, however, that after Dr. Kings assassination, Sharpton, Jackson, et al, did co-opt the dream to lead blacks dependency on government welfare as they delivered them to the Democrat masters.  It was really an epic con.

  17. ponce says:

    “Estimates are in the neighborhood of 500 K for Beck’s rally. ”
     
    *giggle*
     
    And so it begins…

  18. Herb says:

    Zels, believe it or not, but we have something in common.  I got spoofed the other day too….and yeah, it’s annoying.
    As to the penis measuring contest regarding crowd size…who cares?  Al Sharpton is a con man and a joke.  This, however, does not mean that Glenn Beck is something else…..
    The 3000 people showing up at Sharpton’s rally are just as dumb as the “tens of thousands” (not 500K…gimme a break) showing up at Glenn Beck’s rally.  Fools following fools, all of em.

  19. just me says:

    Well I think the racism charges have long been mostly unfounded and meant more to discredit anything that was said or being argued.
     
    I don’t think I would have swallowed the idea that it was non political-before or after the event.

  20. King Fools says:

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  21. Juneau: says:

    @personna
     
    I haven’t followed it at all, but the Christian-military linking above seems worrying.


    Ooooooh, I’m scared!  People who believe in God, and fight for our freedom and protection!  The end is near!

  22. MarkedMan says:

    Sharpton and Beck on the same day.  Harmonic convergence, there.

  23. SteveCan says:

    A few more than the Tens of thousands of people reported by ‘some’ rallied at the steps of the Lincoln Memorial Saturday at an event organized by the conservative broadcaster Glenn Beck.
     
    FIXED

  24. ponce says:

    “and fight for our freedom”
     
    It’s been quite a while since any American soldier has fought for our freedom.

  25. Eric Florack says:

    @ Juneau
    I think you and I are on the same page, there.  I don’t share the misgivings some have been here of the references to religion , since I hold that the religion and the culture of America as founded (and for the majority of her history) cannot be fully delinked without damaging the culture.  That culture cannot be damaged without damaging the country.
    That I think is the message that people tried to send from Washington today.  It’s a message that all too infrequently gets sent, frankly.

  26. John Burgess says:

    I was amused to see CNN downplaying crowd size even before the crowd arrived. Their correspondent was telling us how, because of the site and the reflecting pool, the crowd would look much larger than it really was. Now that reeked of desperation.
     
    This election cycle, I’m paying attention to who’s frothing about God and Country. The reason is that they’re putting their god-cap on while talking of doing secular service. Whatever their religious beliefs, I’m tired of having them rammed down my throat politically. If the campaign is all about God, then I’m just voting for the other guy.

  27. Juneau: says:

    @ ponce
     
    It’s been quite a while since any American soldier has fought for our freedom.


    This is like saying that, since the police have never had to come to your house to arrest a rapist, then “its been a long time since the police have come to my assistance.”

    The analogy is obvious. Your perspective is inherently ungrateful.  It is also naive, shortsighted, and irrelevant to the reality of the issues involved.

  28. Juneau: says:

    @ Burgess
     
    If the campaign is all about God, then I’m just voting for the other guy.


    We haven’t had a campaign that is “all about God” since JFK and the debate about his Catholicism.  The problem is, if a candidate mentions the name “Jesus” then the media and the left immediately cry negative stereotypes, “Radical Christian, Theocracy, Fundamentalist!”

    It’s always interesting to see that if a Christian openly talks about their belief, however briefly, they are a frothing radical and unfit to govern (i.e. Bush).  If a Muslim talks about Muhammed or Allah then they are simply exercising their religious freedom.

  29. ponce says:

    “The analogy is obvious. Your perspective is inherently ungrateful.  It is also naive, shortsighted, and irrelevant to the reality of the issues involved.”
     
    The U.S. military lost to the Commies in Vietnam.
     
    Please explain how any American’s freedom was curtail;ed by that unfortunate outcome.

  30. G.A.Phillips says:

    It was a great day for God and country, pay no attention to what 20%Er’s type……. it’s allways the same and meaningless…..

  31. just me says:

    [i]The problem is, if a candidate mentions the name “Jesus” then the media and the left immediately cry negative stereotypes, “Radical Christian, Theocracy, Fundamentalist!”[/i]

    This is only the case when the candidate is a republican.  If the democratic candidate doesn’t mention Jesus then he is automatically an atheist.

  32. Michael says:

    …the degree to which it mixed religion and politics should quite honestly be disturbing to anyone who believes in the value of secularism in politics.

    When was it ever different? Religion is a major part of the lives of most Americans, so it should be little surprise (or worry) that it’s also a major part of our politics. This coming from an atheist.

  33. sam says:

    I think I read that attendee were able to get 10% off coupons for gold coins.

  34. wr says:

    Zels — Here’s an idea. Why don’t you actually read a little of what MLK wrote and said, instead of regurgitating the Fox news version? I think you’ll quickly discover just how much of what he believed you despise as communism.

    Or maybe you can read him calling America the greatest force for violence on the planet and nod in agreement. If so, please let me know.

  35. tom p says:

    >>>It’s always interesting to see that if a Christian openly talks about their belief, however briefly, they are a frothing radical and unfit to govern (i.e. Bush). <<>> If a Muslim talks about Muhammed or Allah then they are simply exercising their religious freedom.<<<<

    Juneau, again I don't know what world you live in, but why would so many on the loony right (as opposed to the sane right) waste so much time trying to convince people that Obama is a muslim if this was a good thing for his political career?

  36. tom p says:

    wow… I have no idea what happened to my post above…. about half of it is gone and I have no idea where the italics come from…

  37. tom p says:

    So screw it… I will try to make one other small point tho…

    >>>If a Muslim talks about Muhammed or Allah then they are simply exercising their religious freedom.<<<<

    You all do realize that Muslims, Jews, and Christains, they all worship the same God? You do know that, don't you?

  38. ponce says:

    For comparison, here’s a pic of the MLK rally that was estimated to have 200,000 in attendance:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:March_on_Washington_edit.jpg
     
    And it certainly look more crowded than Beckapalooza.

  39. wr says:

    Yes, but Michelle Bachman said there were a million people there. Tomorrow she’ll probably add a couple of zeroes.

    That is, in addition to the zeroes who were up on stage…

  40. sam says:

    Is that a check in his hand?

  41. floyd says:

    “You all do realize that Muslims, Jews, and Christains, they all worship the same God? You do know that, don’t you?”
    “”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

      How did you come to “realize” that?

  42. tom p says:

    floyd, I know that actually reading the Bible, the Torah, and the Koran, is antithetical to some people, but those who have actually read all 3 have noticed the small detail that all 3 religions worship the God of Abraham…

    They just do it in different ways.

    My question remains: You do realize that, don’t you? Don’t you?

    (and this time I would actually appreciate an answer)

  43. john personna says:

    Ooooooh, I’m scared!  People who believe in God, and fight for our freedom and protection!  The end is near!

    While our enemies fight for their gods?  Kind of last millennium, isn’t it?

  44. Zelsdorf Ragshaft III says:

    WR, I did not need to get anything from Fox news.  I heard Kings speech as it was being given.  J. Edgar Hoover tried to smear King with the “communist” BS.  He was a Republican and as all know, Democrats have a lot more in common with communists than Republicans.  I usually try not to judge until I am given some indication where someone reveals a bit about themselves.  Since I cannot see you WR, it cannot be said I judge you by the color of your skin, but rather the content of your character.  I find you wanting.

  45. tom p says:

    While our enemies fight for their gods?  Kind of last millennium, isn’t it?

    JP: THEIR GODS ARE “OUR” GODS….
    (assuming you have a god)
    Don’t buy into this language folks, “they” win if you do.

  46. Eric Florack says:

    While our enemies fight for their gods?
     

    No, while our enemies fight for their culture.
    The religion that she’s so quickly downplay is in fact at or near the root of every culture past and present that has ever existed, including ours.

  47. John Burgess says:

    Juneau: Here in FL, bringing Christ into the political equation gives us fiascos like the Terri Schiavo circus. I’ve been going to political meetings here. What I’m hearing from candidates is not just ‘I’m a Christian and follow Christian values’, it’s ‘those godless Democrats are taking away our rights and threatening our children.’ That, I will not elect.

  48. G.A.Phillips says:

    ***When was it ever different? Religion is a major part of the lives of most Americans, so it should be little surprise (or worry) that it’s also a major part of our politics. This coming from an atheist.***

    Damn dude why do you always have come on here and be so polite and level headed, !?!?!?!?

  49. floyd says:

     Having read them myself , I disagree.
    Perhaps it’s the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
      Go back and read the New testament again.
     Sadly this is hardly the venue for much epistemology 
    It greives me very little that you have been unable or unwilling to appreciate my answers in the past.
    Perhaps this one will remain unappreciated as well. 

  50. An Interested Party says:

    “…And one day we must ask the question, Why are there forty million poor people in America? And when you begin to ask that question, you are raising questions about the economic system, about a broader distribution of wealth. When you ask that question, you begin to question the capitalistic economy. And I’m simply saying that more and more, we’ve got to begin to ask questions about the whole society…

    Now our country can do this. John Kenneth Galbraith said that a guaranteed annual income could be done for about twenty billion dollars a year. And I say to you today, that if our nation can spend thirty-five billion dollars a year to fight an unjust, evil war in Vietnam, and twenty billion dollars to put a man on the moon, it can spend billions of dollars to put God’s children on their own two feet right here on earth.”

    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/628.html

    Hmm…these words don’t sound like those of a supposed Republican…but, they do sound like the words of someone who, these days, would be branded as a “socialist”…

  51. Juneau: says:

    @ Burgess
     
    I’m hearing from candidates is not just ‘I’m a Christian and follow Christian values’, it’s ‘those godless Democrats are taking away our rights and threatening our children.’ That, I will not elect.


    So, out of curiosity, which do you disagree with; that they are not taking away our rights or that they are not threatening our children?

  52. anjin-san says:

    > you better fix this or there will be legal consequences.
    Perhaps an activist judge can be found to shut OTB down  🙂

  53. Juneau: says:

    @ ponce
    The U.S. military lost to the Commies in Vietnam.  Please explain how any American’s freedom was curtail;ed by that unfortunate outcome.


    Number one, you unequivocally equate effectiveness with victory, as if by losing we accomplished nothing whatsoever by engaging in the fight against communism in Vietnam.  Aside from the millions that would not have been killed by Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge had we won, there was also a significant benefit to American freedom in that the Viet Cong were financed and supported by the USSR.  Fighting in Vietnam curtailed the USSR’s expansion into far-east asia.  The real answer to your question is what would have happened if nothing was done to fight communism in vietnam.  There is such a thing as momentum, and the “domino effect” was not just a catchy phrase.  The same thing can be said for the Bay of Pigs – while it was a dismal failure, it illustrated that the US was willing to use force, if necessary.

    This goes to the heart of exactly  what I was stating before – fighting the enemy on their territory is much preferable to fighting them on ours.    Having the police bust a meth house three blocks away does make your family safer.

  54. Juneau: says:

    @ top p
    You all do realize that Muslims, Jews, and Christains, they all worship the same God? You do know that, don’t you?


    Ummmm, no  – they don’t.  I’m certainly not going to turn this into a religious discourse but the Judaic God and the Christian God are the same, except the New Testament (Christian) introduces the concept of grace through the once-and-for-all sacrifice of Christ to satisfy the requirement for sin to be judged.   The Muslim God plays by entirely different rules, as demonstrated by the radical difference between the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Muhammed.

  55. Michael says:

    Damn dude why do you always have come on here and be so polite and level headed, !?!?!?!?

    When the hell was I polite to you?  If ever I was, I sincerely apologize.

  56. anjin-san says:

    > the “domino effect” was not just a catchy phrase.
    Please. Communist Viet Nam is our business partner. There are almost certainly items made there in the home of every one of the folks in here who froths at the mouth about communism. How many items in your home are made in China Juneau? Do you know what those folks are really about? They have slave labor factories staffed by political prisoners making products for export to the good ol’ USA. People are executed for attempting free speech. After the execution, the families are billed for the cost of the execution. The state expects payment too. Our business partners. We are all the way in bed with them, GOP and Democrats alike. After all, there is good money to be made.

  57. Michael says:

    The Muslim God plays by entirely different rules, as demonstrated by the radical difference between the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Muhammed.

    And yet the Quran singles out Jews and Christians as fellow “People of the book”, and grants them certain accommodations not given to the multitude of polytheistic religions that existed all around them.  And, if you bother to read the Quran, you’d learn that Jesus is, next to Mohammad, one of their most revered prophets.

  58. anjin-san says:

    > The Muslim God plays by entirely different rules,
    It is always humorous to me, albeit in a sad sort of way, when I hear a human being, factory equipped with a souped up monkey brain, claim to understand or have any special insight into God, they ways of God or the mind of God. It is a bit like an hearing an ant holding forth on unified field theory.
    I would not be at all surprised to discover that God considers the mackerel to be his finest creation on earth, and human beings amongst his poorest creations.

  59. An Interested Party says:

    “This goes to the heart of exactly  what I was stating before – fighting the enemy on their territory is much preferable to fighting them on ours.”

    Oh yes, because if we hadn’t sent troops to Vietnam, the Viet Cong would have been on the streets of LA and San Diego and Honolulu in no time… 

    Oh, and here’s some more for poor, delusional Zelsdorf…

    “Among other things, King fought to the end of his life for a government guaranteed income. ‘It must be pegged to the median income of society, not the lowest levels of income,’ the Doctor prescribed, and ‘it must automatically increase as the total social income grows… If periodic reviews disclose that the whole national income has risen, then the guaranteed income would have to be adjusted upward by the same percentage.'”

    http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2010/01/conservatives_c.php

  60. ponce says:

    <i>  Aside from the millions that would not have been killed by Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge had we won</i>
     
    It was the Viet Cong who put a stop to the the Khmer Rouge.
     
    There’s  no reason to believe  our troops could have have done the job.

  61. anjin-san says:

    > It was the Viet Cong who put a stop to the the Khmer Rouge.

    Lets not cloud the discussion with facts…

  62. anjin-san says:

    > Oh yes, because if we hadn’t sent troops to Vietnam, the Viet Cong would have been on the streets of LA and San Diego and Honolulu in no time…

    Damn straight they would have been. We will see how cocky you are when you are being converted to Islam at the point of a sword!
     

  63. sam says:

    @Juneau
    “Fighting in Vietnam curtailed the USSR’s expansion into far-east asia. The real answer to your question is what would have happened if nothing was done to fight communism in vietnam?”
     
    And the answer to that question is who knows? What you’re overlooking is the Sino-Soviet conflict of the 1970s. The Vietnamese had no love for the Chinese (they fought a short, vicious war in 1979), and may have thought that a significant Soviet naval presence at Cam Ranh Bay, for instance, would be a deterrent to Chinese designs on Vietnam. One can wonder how such a strong Soviet naval presence in the South China Sea would have gone down in Beijing. Not too happily, I’d bet. In fact, one can speculate that such a presence might have hastened the end of communism by precipitating an armed conflict between China and Russia, to the detriment of the Russians. In this scenario, by fighting in Vietnam, we actually delayed the date of the fall of communism in Russia. We made the mistake of focusing on communism, rather than seeing it as overlaying the fundamental nationalism of China and Russia. Had we focused on those two as national actors in conflict with one other instead of each trying to advance communism, we might have made different, and better decisions. Speculation, of course, but given the sequel, probably better grounded than the domino theory.
     
     

  64. Rock says:

    Who won the Vietnam war? When you can go into the most remote villages of North Vietnam and buy a can Pepsi and a pair of Levi jeans, the question isn’t debatable.
    And local supermarkets and restaurants now offer Swai (Vietnamese farm raised catfish) for our consumption. So who won the war?

  65. Herb says:

    Who won the Vietnam war? When you can go into the most remote villages of North Vietnam and buy a can Pepsi and a pair of Levi jeans, the question isn’t debatable.

    Ha!  The war aim wasn’t to bring Pepsi and Levis to Vietnam.  The war aim was to stop Vietnam from going communist.
     
    And Vietnam is, to this day, communist.

  66. steve says:

    Capitalism usually wins out. If we had just believed in our own system, we need not have gone to war.
     
    Steve

  67. John Burgess says:

    @Juneau: That they’re taking whatever actions they’re taking because they’re ‘godless’. That their actions, since they are ‘godless’ are necessarily evil.
     
    I do not dismiss religion or its importance. I do, however, relegate it to the private sphere, not the public one.

  68. Brummagem Joe says:

    Rock says:

    Sunday, August 29, 2010 at 07:13

    “Who won the Vietnam war? When you can go into the most remote villages of North Vietnam and buy a can Pepsi and a pair of Levi jeans, the question isn’t debatable.”

    I’m sure we could have gotten Pepsi and Levi’s into remote villages in Vietnam at a lower cost than 550,000 American lives. But if you thnk it was worth it Rock. 

  69. john personna says:

    > The Muslim God plays by entirely different rules,

    It is always humorous to me, albeit in a sad sort of way, when I hear a human being, factory equipped with a souped up monkey brain, claim to understand or have any special insight into God, they ways of God or the mind of God. It is a bit like an hearing an ant holding forth on unified field theory.

    What’s really sad is that we had a better (Enlightenment) handle on this 200 years ago.

  70. Brummagem Joe says:

    Reality check This was a publicity stunt funded by god knows who that will be off the radar in less than 48 hours. 

  71. Rock says:

    My comment about Pepsi and Levi jeans was actually a quote by a French war correspondent ten years after the Vietnam War ended. He had returned to Vietnam after the war and was being interviewed by TV news show upon his return to the USA. The only reason I didn’t attribute him was because I don’t remember his name. However, I do remember what he said.
    550,000 American lives? That’s news to me. While I was in Vietnam, the only soft drink available was root beer. Ever try to mix a shot of rotgut whiskey with root beer? A cold Pepsi would have been worth fighting for.

  72. Pete says:

    Uh, Brummagem Joe, that would be 58,000 lives; not 550,000.

  73. Sandra says:

    Which of the “two rallies” was in support of the “I have a Dream Speech that ended with:
    “When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God’s children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, “Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!”
    I would have to note, no where did Rev. Martin Luther King Jr reference Islam, although he was very aware of it and there were several “Black Muslims” standing behind him, and were next to him in the “march”
    The “Restoring Honor” rally was all about judging content of character, and the “other” rally was about judging by color.

  74. Brummagem Joe says:

    Pete says:
    Sunday, August 29, 2010 at 09:15

    Sorry a nought shot in there I meant 55,000!
     Rock says:

    Sunday, August 29, 2010 at 08:55

    “My comment about Pepsi and Levi jeans was actually a quote by a French war correspondent ten years after the Vietnam War ended.”

    I don’t care who said it you essentially endorsed it. And my comment stands. There were easier ways to get Pepsi into Vietnam than their deaths when they were in main kids. And I drink my whisky without soda.  

  75. Tano says:

    “Who won the Vietnam war? When you can go into the most remote villages of North Vietnam and buy a can Pepsi and a pair of Levi jeans, the question isn’t debatable.”
     
    Gee, now thats brilliant. When you go into the most remote village in the United States, and see what people are driving, and how they play their music and videos – then could you please explain to me who won WWII?

  76. john personna says:

    Sandra, I’m fine with Christian rallies.  I’m fine with Christian rallies for a host of social issues.  The thing that is worrying is when you bind it to militarism.  In the old days, how much time did Rev. King spend on the role of the military in his vision?
     
    We still have a set of “Mosque” threads on the OTB page.  Do you see any connection?  Americans oppose mosques, even those not in NY, and then have a rally with “Christian” support for the military?
     
    On the other side of the world, there are certainly rallies with Muslim support for Islamic militarism.
     
    If we don’t want this to be Crusade 2010, we have to make it about broader human values.  If we want to really be about freedom, we better support some mosques.  Because otherwise, we are just providing the foil our enemies need.  Look, they can say, the Christians want to fight us.

  77. Juneau: says:

    @ personna
     
    If we don’t want this to be Crusade 2010….


    What, exactly, was the “military” content at the rally that has you so concerned, because I don’t see it.   You appear to be trying to create an issue where none exists.

  78. Zelsdorf Ragshaft III says:

    Since this morphed into a discussion on the Vietnam war.  First I want to give a shout out to Sandra for she is the only poster here who spoke about content without involving politics which was what Beck asked for.  When the U.S pulled out of Vietnam, our forces had not lost a major battle.  The South Vietnamese were capable of defending their nation.  It was not until the Democrats refused to fund the Souths efforts that the North made advancements which eventually overran the south.  S.E.A.T.O. was the reason we were in Vietnam.  Anjin, you really do not know what you write about, maybe you should just sit and read what those of us who have experience in the area of discussion have to say.  Try learning something on your own.

  79. G.A.Phillips says:

    Well we all Know who won the war against unborn Children…..

    Godless Democrats, er, hypocrites anyone?

    They had a dream too, for like a few weeks or  a couple of months then nothing…..

    http://www.blackgenocide.org/

  80. An Interested Party says:

    “The ‘Restoring Honor’ rally was all about judging content of character…”

    Oh really?  Let’s look at Glenn Beck’s character, shall we?

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-29/glenn-beck-rally-reaction/?cid=hp:mainpromo1

    “But the most striking thing about Beck’s heartfelt evangelism was its hypocrisy.
    ‘We’re dividing ourselves,’ Beck lamented. ‘There is growing hatred in the country. We must be better than what we’ve allowed ourselves to become. We must get the poison of hatred out of us, no matter what smears or lies are thrown our way… we must look to God and look to love. We must defend those we disagree with.’

    It made me wonder if Glenn Beck has ever watched the Glenn Beck show.

    The man offers a daily drumbeat of division for a living, earning $32 million last year  selling his paranoid snake oil. It’s almost impossible to keep up with Beck’s serial fearmongering, though a stroll through Media Matters will give an authoritative sampling. Just a few of his greatest hits include:
    • ‘We are a country that is headed toward socialism, totalitarianism, beyond your wildest imagination.’
    • ‘There is a coup going on. There is a stealing of America… done through the guise of an election.’
    • ‘The president is a Marxist… who is setting up a class system.’
    • ‘The government is a heroin pusher using smiley-faced fascism to grow the nanny state.’
    • ‘The health-care bill is reparations. It’s the beginning of reparations.’
    • And of course, speaking of President Obama, ‘I believe this guy is a racist’ with ‘a deep-seated hatred of white people.’
    You can’t profit from fear and division all week and then denounce them one Saturday on the National Mall in Washington and hope nobody notices.”

  81. wr says:

    “You can’t profit from fear and division all week and then denounce them one Saturday on the National Mall in Washington and hope nobody notices.”

    Well, of course you can. As long as your entire audience is made up of idiots.

  82. Juneau: says:

    @wr
    Well, of course you can. As long as your entire audience is made up of idiots.
     
    Fear and division… hah! Yeah, Beck is telling everyone to fear the Democrat’s agenda, and that the Government gets and wastes too much of the division of wealth.  Ooooooh, positively Evil!
     
    “Burn him, burn him!  He’s a witch!”
    “How do you know he’s a witch?”
    “‘Cause he looks like one!”

  83. Rock says:

    Yes We Can! It took multitudes of extraordinary idiots to elect Obama and his gang of thugs. Idiocy runs deep on both sides.
     

  84. wr says:

    Juneau — Right. And the fact that Beck is making a fortune selling crooked gold “investment” schemes to the idiots he terrifies into thinking the entire economic system will collapse isn’t evil, either. He’s a conman and you’re a mark. No wonder you think he’s a great man.

  85. anjin-san says:

    > idiots
    Juneau’s hand went up pretty quickly when you used that word  🙂
     

  86. john personna says:

    Juneau the meeting yesterday the 28th was called a Restoring Honor Rally.  It rasied fund for the Special Operations Warrior Foundation. Here is what one observer wrote:

    Glen Beck and I share a great admiration for the Founding Fathers of the United States. We celebrate their wisdom, character and integrity. I watched much of Beck’s “Restoring Honor” rally in Washington D.C. on C-SPAN expecting a focus on the best ancient virtues, American values and how we can get the right representatives and leadership in Washington to take us on a better course. What I received instead was an evangelical preacher and a constant drum beat of how we need the Western religious concept of God in our lives.

    http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/religion_theseeker/2010/08/glen-beck-dismisses-non-religious-americans-in-rally.html

    Can you see that as a little weird?  There is nothing wrong with God, or raising money for Warriors, but I think we’d like the two distanced a little … so that say the Muslim Warriors in the US army aren’t excluded.
     
     

  87. Zelsdorf Ragshaft III says:

    And Pilot was the first with his hand in the air.  Sorry Anjin, but cameras don’t lie.  I hear a lot of people criticizing Beck.  I do not hear a defeat of his arguement, just an attack on his character.  You sayin Van Jones is not a self admitted communist or the Education Czar is not a pedophile?  That there are people in this administration who think Mao was a great leader?  There was a comment way earlier about having 40 million poor people in this country.  If the people currently in power have there way that number will rise to 300 million.  I do not need nor will I tolerate any elitist telling me what is good for me.  If they have any idea of what is good for them, they will leave town by dark.  If you think this rally was sizable, even after the MSM tell you it was small, just wait for 9/11.  That will be really big.  I too, can see November from my front porch.  It is looking good.

  88. Juneau: says:

    @ wr
     
    Right. And the fact that Beck is making a fortune selling crooked gold “investment” schemes to the idiots he terrifies into thinking the entire economic system will collapse isn’t evil, either.


    You know, I’m not a Beck apologist by any means, but – you are  liar.  There is no case or indictment pending on Glenn Beck for anything illegal.  As usual, you’re long on assumptions and innuendo and short on facts – exactly what you accuse Beck of.  Which just goes to show that the adage is true –  If you want to find out what a Democrat is trying to get way with, all you have to do is look at what they’re accusing others of.

  89. Brummagem Joe says:

    Zelsdorf Ragshaft III says:

    Sunday, August 29, 2010 at 12:33

    “When the U.S pulled out of Vietnam, our forces had not lost a major battle.  The South Vietnamese were capable of defending their nation.”

    Although I can see you’re obviously an expert on Arvin Zels, just as you’re an expert on everything, but you apparently don’t know that Arvin, a bit like the Afghan army, would have had difficulty defending their local McDonalds. And we may not have lost a major battle but we lost thousands of small ones. And it was the small battles that decided the outcome or why did a Republican president order our evacuation? Of course he could have been a communist agent committed to the destruction of the US. 

  90. Juneau: says:

    @ personna
     
    No, I don’t find that weird at all.  It is only from your pathological liberal perspective regarding the military which makes it strange in your eyes.  You seem to forget that Beck stated prior to the rally that it would not be political – yet you’re complaining that it didn’t have a political theme.
     
    I’m perfectly comfortable with the notion that honoring our soldiers goes hand-in hand with honoring virtue that are foundational to our country – in this case the virtue of being willing to sacrifice their lives and wellbeing for the ideal of freedom.  You all are so contemptuous of the mission in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and consistently refuse to acknowledge the new freedoms enjoyed by the citizens of both those countries (particularly the women).  Somehow, I don’t think they would be quite as sanguine as you show yourself to be in stating the issue is worthless.
    Fighting for this goal is a virtue in and of itself and the ideal of freedom is one granted to us by God, not by the state.  This is why, in this country, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights…”

  91. Juneau: says:

    Enough with the vietnam thing already.  Vietnam boiled down to one primary issue, ROE and force restraint.  As soon as we bombed haiphong harbor the North Vietnamese came back to the negotiating table.  Have all of you Progs forgotten the huge lesson learned in the Vietnam war – which was instrumental in the overwhelming victory in Persian Gulf 1 ?   Don’t let the politicians run the war long-distance.  This was the lesson, this was the reason for “defeat”, and this is the concept that the Obama administration has already forgotten in regards to Afghanistan.

  92. Gerry W. says:

    I am sure glad Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin saved the day with God and country. I just would not know how to deal with the world without them. Now I can get my job back. Oh wait, that job is in Mexico.
    Yes, our soldiers sacrificed their lives over a botched up war and the war we were supposed to have was ignored and the real criminal is still on the loose.
    As long as republicans believe in their ideology and end game, then it is a success. It makes no difference how we got there.

  93. anjin-san says:

    > the huge lesson learned in the Vietnam war – which was instrumental in the overwhelming victory in Persian Gulf 1
    The lesson that Bush II forgot while the right cheered at great volume?
     

  94. An Interested Party says:

    “You know, I’m not a Beck apologist by any means, but – you are  liar.”

    Careful there with the accusations, as you are swimming in the same waters when you so easily dismiss and try to caricature the criticisms of Beck…the fact of the matter is that he has made the ludicrous claims that we are a country headed towards socialism and totalitarianism, that there is a “coup” going on to “steal” America, that the president is a “Marxist” and a “racist”, and that the health-care bill is “reparations”…now, any person is perfectly free to spout this inane drivel any day of the week, but when this particular person does so and then turns around and talks about a growing hatred in this country and how we must be better than that and how we must defend those we disagree with, well…such a person wouldn’t be called a “witch”, but is definitely either a cynical, hypocritical huckster or a delusional schizophrenic…take your pick… 

    “There was a comment way earlier about having 40 million poor people in this country.”

    Indeed there was…that was a direct quotation from Martin Luther King, Jr….someone who would be considered a “socialist” by some of the very people here who have praised him for his views on income distribution… 

    “Have all of you Progs forgotten the huge lesson learned in the Vietnam war – which was instrumental in the overwhelming victory in Persian Gulf 1 ?”

    You are in no position to lecture anyone else on this issue as you obviously don’t know the most important lesson of the Vietnam War–the particular circumstances in Vietnam meant that “victory” by any foreign power there was an impossible, dangerous illusion…

  95. Juneau: says:

    @ anjin
     
    The lesson that Bush II forgot while the right cheered at great volume?


    Strike Three.  You’re out.  Bush’s surge (you remember, the troop surge that all the Dems, including Obama, said would never work?)  won the war in Iraq.  Obama is just the beneficiary of the Bush policies in that he gets to be the one to talk about the end of combat deployment in-country.   You Progs are simply amazing; you take credit if it works and you take credit if it doesn’t.  Thank heavens America is seeing through the Kabuki more and more every day.

    By the way, that was incredibly lame, anjin.  I know you said you’ve written jokes for professional comedians, but you need to get some better material.

  96. Juneau: says:

    @ AIP
     
    Careful there with the accusations…


    wr stated the following: And the fact that Beck is making a fortune selling crooked gold “investment” schemes..


    Either one of two things is true – either Beck is selling “crooked” gold investment schemes, or he is not selling anything “crooked” and it is just wr’s characterization of them which is crooked – in which case wr is a liar.

    Glenn Beck is not selling anything in a “crooked” fashion, otherwise it would be against the law.  I repeat, Beck is not under pending indictment, nor is there a case underway against him.  ergo, he is not breaking the law, there is nothing “crooked” about his “investment” selling, and wr is a liar.

    I take back nothing.

  97. Gerry W. says:

    That surge came after some several years of quagmire and “stay the course.” That surge was the product of the Iraq Study Group, General Petraeus, and others. Bush was in over his head with only 170,000 troops for two wars and the wars not paid for. And during this time Afghanistan was ignored. But that doesn’t matter. It is the ideology that counts. And we all remember in 2003 that “all combat operations were over.”

  98. An Interested Party says:

    “I take back nothing.”

    Oh, I meant that in terms of being careful about calling anyone else a liar when you yourself treaded on similar ground by trying to dismiss the criticisms of Beck…

  99. Juneau: says:

    @ AIP
     
    the fact of the matter is that he has made the ludicrous claims that we are a country headed towards socialism


    Oh, of course Beck is wrong about stating this.  Every President has directed the Federal Government to take over majority ownership in Fortune 500 companies, right?  Oh, wait – Obama is the first.   And every President has directed the Government to centrally manage 1/6 of the US economy, while lying through his teeth about the impact and “cost savings” in order to justify the unjustifiable, right?  Oh wait, Obama is the first. And finally, every President has come from a background of being closely affiliated with several organizations that blatantly identify themselves as Socialist, right?   Oh wait, Obama is the first.

    Yeah, Beck is just creating stuff out of whole cloth alright.  Has nothing to do with Obama’s actions at all.   Now you know why people don’t listen to you folks anymore, you truly think everyone is stupid, blind, and can’t read for themselves (like the ObamaCare bill, where the town-hall protesters knew the language better than the legislators), and you act accordingly.  So when you dismiss Beck as a loon and a fraud, you forget that people have this little thing called the internet where they can download and read the legislation, watch the old lecture videos,  listen to the old radio programs that a Prog was a guest on, read the quotes, and make up their own mind whether or not Beck is “fear-mongering” or reporting on facts.  Obviously, you folks are losing that battle.  Badly.

  100. Juneau: says:

    @ Gerry
     
    It is the ideology that counts. And we all remember in 2003 that “all combat operations were over.”


    I’m sorry.  Usually you Progs are kinda’ cute when it comes to sharing your little tidbits of liberal conventional wisdom.  But from time to time the utter nonsense and intellectual poverty of your posts just gets to be too much and I have to be very blunt.  Like now.

    You haven’t got a clue as to what your talking about.  First of all, you misquote, which is natural since you are a Prog and all Progs twist the truth to suit their argument.  What Bush actually said was this, “”Major [emphasis added] combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed.”

    Therefore, secondly, your objection must be that “combat operations” didn’t literally end completely.  You’re about to be hoisted on your own petard.  From Obama’s upcoming address to the nation, a direct quote:  ” On Tuesday, after more than 7 years, the United States of America will end its combat mission in Iraq….”
    So, since there will still be about 50,000 troops left come Tuesday, what are you going to say when one of those die from being shot, or blown up by an IED.  Are you going to say Obama was a liar?  Or will it not count as a “combat” death as long as our guys don’t fight back?   Or will it be that, since the fatality is not technically a “combat” soldier then it won’t be a combat death?
    Your position on this is hopelessly bound for failure.  Fighting sporadic battles with isolated groups of terrorists is not “major combat.”  This is why it’s called Guerilla warfare.  And why they’re called terrorists and not soldiers.

  101. ratufa says:

    Claim: “Every President has directed the Federal Government to take over majority ownership in Fortune 500 companies, right? Oh, wait – Obama is the first. ”

    That is false. The US government took an 80% stake in AIG, a Fortune 500 company, in Fall, 2008.

    Claim: “And every President has directed the Government to centrally manage 1/6 of the US economy, while lying through his teeth about the impact and “cost savings” in order to justify the unjustifiable, right? Oh wait, Obama is the first.”

    Obama is the first president to pass comprehensive health care reform. That the bill is the equivalent of centrally managing health care in this country is a gross exaggeration — it does not create a single-payer system. Obama had CBO estimates to support the claims of cost savings — though a major criticism of these estimates is that Congress will not take the additional steps needed to realize those savings.

    Claim: “every President has come from a background of being closely affiliated with several organizations that blatantly identify themselves as Socialist, right? Oh wait, Obama is the first.”

    I don’t know what “closely affiliated” means. If you’re saying that Obama associated with various people on the left to help his political fortunes in Illinois, so what? He’s a politician. If you’re claiming that his policies are Socialist, as opposed to conventionally liberal, you should listen to what real leftists say about him (hint: they aren’t particularly impressed with Tim Geithner’s Socialist credentials, either).

    As for the stories of town hall meetings where the town-hall protesters knew the language better than the legislators, the anecdote I remember about that was about a town hall protester asking their legislator about about the non-existent “death panel” section of the bill, and the legislator being understandably befuddled by the question. That said, the final health care bill was a mess, and most of the people who voted for it probably hadn’t read it.

  102. Gerry W. says:

    Your the one that said “the Bush surge” in which the surge was the product of the Iraq Study Group and others after years of quagmire. And you said “Obama is just the beneficiary of the Bush policies in that he gets to be the one to talk about the end of combat deployment in-country. ” Yes, Obama is the beneficiary of the Bush policies-how nice of Bush.
    I do agree that Obama did not have to talk about pulling out troops. A quiet withdrawal is satisfactory, although we will be there in some capacity for months or maybe years to come.
    The fact is, it was a botched war, never had enough troops, Afghanistan was ignored, and we still don’t have Osama Bin Laden.
    So you can keep bragging about the “Bush surge” but we really know what happened.

  103. Juneau: says:

    @rutufa
    That is false. The US government took an 80% stake in AIG, a Fortune 500 company, in Fall, 2008.


    No Sir, once again you are misrepresenting the facts.  AIG was a loan, as opposed to a purchase.  It wasn’t until GM that the Government outright owned a US Fortune 500 company.  Please see below:
    online.wsj.com/article/SB122156561931242905.html
    Under terms hammered out Tuesday night, the Fed will lend up to $85 billion to AIG, and the U.S. government will effectively get a 79.9% equity stake in the insurer in the form of warrants called equity participation notes. The two-year loan will carry an interest rate of Libor plus 8.5 percentage points.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…/gm-ipo-will-you-buy-share_n_687371.html
    The U.S. government now owns about 61 percent of GM,…
    And:
    http://wizbangblog.com/content/2009/05/19/us-government-to-buy-gm-if-it-declares-bankruptcy.php
    General Motors Corp’s (GM.N) plan for a bankruptcy filing involves a quick sale of the company’s healthy assets to a new company initially owned by the U.S. government, a source familiar with the situation said on Tuesday.
    But Obama is not going to back away from handing over the new GM to the unions as he did with Chrysler:
    The government’s plans include giving stakes in the new company to GM’s union and bondholders, although the ownership structure of the company is still being negotiated, said the source who is familiar with the company’s plans.


    No, nothing Socialist about the above at all…  every administration does this sort of thing.  And, by the way, the Federal Government still own a majority share of GM.


    I admire your attempt, but, really…. don’t you think the effort required on your part to split the hair is somewhat revealing about the legitimacy of the country’s fears and impressions about Obama?  Why does he need apologists if the socialist question is as outlandish as you say?

  104. Juneau: says:

    @ ratufa
     
    If you’re saying that Obama associated with various people on the left to help his political fortunes in Illinois, so what?
    Only a liberal would make this statement without blushing – and only when discussing (excusing) another liberal.   It was not simply “various people.”   ‘Nuff said.

  105. wr says:

    Juneau — Beck shills for Goldline, which sells gold coins, positioning them as an investment against coming economic disaster, while pricing them at something like twice their melt value, then ensuring that they are terrible investments. It is true that Beck has not been arrested or indicted for helping to fleece his followers this way, but I believe this is a shady, corrupt, evil business. You may feel free to defend him all you want.

  106. Wayne says:

    Ponce
    Your link only showed people filling up the interior (area right around the water and the ends) of the mall . The Beck rally picture showed the interior being packed plus an open area twice the size being nearly pack plus you can see people pack within some of the trees.  I would say it is safe to presume that the trees areas close to the interior are pack.
    So I am not sure how you can justifiably judge by the pictures link above to the Rallies, that MLK rally was certainly more crowded than Becks.  

  107. Wayne says:

    Ponce
    It is certainly more than tens of thousands.  

  108. Grewgills says:

    <blockquote> Glenn Beck is not selling anything in a “crooked” fashion, otherwise it would be against the law.  I repeat, Beck is not under pending indictment, nor is there a case underway against him.  ergo, he is not breaking the law, there is nothing “crooked” about his “investment” selling </blockquote>
    I will have to remember this, if it isn’t illegal then QED it is not crooked and if not case is pending then it can’t be illegal.  Both good to know.  Remember this in future when you are talking about those you disagree with politically.

  109. mannning says:

    Here is my little oar in these waters; just two comments:

    1.  Crowd size estimates are politicized for the simple reason that they may foretell the political fate of the radicals in office. Since it has been speculated that for every citizen that shows up at a rally about 100 are wishing they could, Rally Size x 100 = Disaster for the Incumbents. A big cheer for that, even though the ostensible goal of the Beck rally was not political! I would put the size of the DC rally at about 300,000, which I hope represents 30 million voters against Obama!

    2. For many years we had a proper, more livable balance of religion and secularism in the nation, but since more atheists and agnostics have found their voice and their organizations, such as the ACLU and The Humanist Society, the secularists have been on the rise. (It just may be that a few of them are posting here now!) Their main result so far seems to be to have created great disharmony where there had been little or none, to attack Christians wherever found, to advocate legislation that is counter to or subversive of the Constitution, to invent a community organizer and wishwashy, socialistic politico as worthy of the Presidency, to elect to Congress the likes of Pelosi and Reid, to pass unread legislation that will break the bank, and to run the deficit to the sky! Good job SH’ers! Go look back at #1 above.

  110. The Q says:

    Juneau,
    You unctuous twit….how do you counter this argument ahole to your drivel below:
    Richard Nixon, the notorious communist from Whittier California established wage and price controls over the U.S. economy starting in Aug. 1971 until they were lifted in 1974.
    I guess that one slipped your feeble mind. Or weren’t you born yet you tool.
    So in essence this mindless dreck highlighted below, which you so cleverly wrote is TOTAL BULL$HIT:
    Every President has directed the Federal Government to take over majority ownership in Fortune 500 companies, right?  Oh, wait – Obama is the first.   And every President has directed the Government to centrally manage 1/6 of the US economy, while lying through his teeth about the impact and “cost savings” in order to justify the unjustifiable, right?  Oh wait, Obama is the first
    Admit that you’re an idiot masquerading as a conservative, but I repeat myself.

  111. anjin-san says:

    > won the war in Iraq.
    Actually, all it did was somewhat salvage the situation. The post surge body count in Iraq shows your claim of “victory” to be a joke. We achieved victory in WW2 over Germany and Japan. They were beaten and the violence ceased.
    I do give Bush credit for a very well executed late-game course correction. It was one of his best moments.

  112. Juneau: says:

    @ Grewgills
     
    I will have to remember this, if it isn’t illegal then QED it is not crooked and if not case is pending then it can’t be illegal.  Both good to know.  Remember this in future when you are talking about those you disagree with politically.


    Yes, please do, and also remember to factor in the most salient point, which is exposure and time.  The issue here is based on a well known and highly publicized practice by Beck, and also one where allegations have been leveled and investigated by his enemies.  If you keep the playing field level – i.e. equal exposure and scrutiny without any official censure, then I have absolutely no problem with you holding me to that standard.

  113. anjin-san says:

    Question for those in the room with working brains. Why are we talking to an utter twit like Juneau? I think we have given him all the oxygen he deserves and then some. I am hoping someone actually worth talking to comes along. All the Palinites seem to have is low-grade nut jobs. I am done with him.

  114. Juneau: says:

    The Q
     
    Wage and price controls are not ownership, or should I buy you a grade school primer so you can understand the difference between owning the lemonade stand –  how that means you get to keep everything you earn – and the completely different concept that if you don’t control the cost of your product you won’t make any money?
     
    Your vigorous insults notwithstanding (and you’re so darn cute when you’re angry), your argument is not even on point, much less an accurate comparison for rebuttal.

  115. Juneau: says:

    Well, now that ahjin has hurt my feelings immeasurably with his rejection of my worth as a human being –  I guess I’ll go away.  Since you want me to…..are you sure?  Really sure?   Really, really, sure?   OK….   Wish I was smart….like you guys.  Someday I’ll GET smart…and then… then, I’ll be back.  You’ll see.  Someday.

  116. The Q says:

    Please Juneau, splitting hairs again when you just got your a$$ kicked.
    You’re  backtracking with this “Wage and price controls are not ownership” crap.
    If dictating to ALL industry what they can and can’t charge, what they can or can’t pay in  wages is not a Soviet style command economy, I don’t know what is.
    The point you were trying to make and the one which I destroyed is obvious.
    You were trying to make the point that Obama is unique in his “socialist” tendencies
    And I pointed out one huge glaring fuc%k up in your argument.
    You  and your brain addled conservative cohort could not admit that what a Republican, conservative, anti communist president did to the economy was infinite degrees more ‘communist” than anything Obama has even contemplated.
    You were trying to prove Obama a marxist. He has not “taken ownership” of any huge slice of the economy as you were trying to point out.
    If Obama were to come out tomorrow and tell the health care industry what they can charge for a doctor’s visit or told the oil industry that henceforth gas will be $2 a gallon and they will not make any profit this year, then you may have a point.
    When you were cornered with the stupidity of your example, you bring up a moronic “lemonade stand” analogy.
    Sorry. you got waxed, now take it like a man.

  117. Juneau: says:

    @ Q
     
    You  and your brain addled conservative cohort could not admit that what a Republican, conservative, anti communist president did to the economy was infinite degrees more ‘communist” than anything Obama has even contemplated.


    Yawn….OK, I’ll put you some knowledge my lil’ psycho mouth breathing friend – despite the fact that you are obviously not going to accept reality.
    1)  Nixon’s price and wage controls were a 90 day program
    2)  They were – from the very beginning-  intended to be a temporary fix to bring down inflation (didn’t work).
    3)  Nixon’s wage and price controls did not give the Government control over the choices consumers made about purchases in the marketplace
    Your argument is not applicable to your point because:
    A:  ObamaCare is not intended to be temporary – the government’s central control of 1/6 of the economy it is intended to be forever.
    B:  ObanaCare dictates to consumers what choices they will have
    C:  The Government through ObamaCare will exercise control over peoples personal lives, including penalties for non-compliance with mandates to purchase government-approved services and products.

    Your comparison of Nixon’s 90 day “fix” and the current situation is laughable and indefensible.  After all, perhaps you might take the time to look around and realize that Nixon’s price and wage controls are not in effect today.   If not defunded or repealed, you will not be able to say the same about ObamaCare in 40 years.

    Clear enough?  Or do I still need to buy that grade school primer for you?

  118. Juneau: says:

    @ Q
     
    He has not “taken ownership” of any huge slice of the economy as you were trying to point out.


    Misquote.  I never said this, and anyone that cares to verify that can look at my post.  What’s wrong?  Are you so addled in the brain that you can no longer read what was said?  Or are you simply falling into the old liberal pattern of twisting the facts to suit your argument?

    What I said was that Obama is the first president in history to have the government take ownership of a fortune 500 company (GM)  I also supplied links to support that ownership is exactly what took place.   I then talked about central control of 1/6 of the economy in the form of ObamaCare.

    Two different concepts.  Perhaps you should read more carefully before you embarrass yourself further.

  119. floyd says:

    “”I think we have given him all the oxygen he deserves and then some.””
    “””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
    So… you’re some form of plant life?  A tree perhaps? Surely you’re some kind of nut!
      NOT A BUSH , or was that shrub?[lol] Oh!  I KNOW! “The Little Shop of Horrors”
     where the plant demands blood in exchange for oxygen.  

  120. Ray says:

    I always wondered what hate looks like?  Now I know and I can see their leadership.  Don’t Beck and Palin understand that our forefathers purposely wrote ” a division of church and state”  How can these republican idiots try to sell this montra to educated people?  This is very reflective of the GOP and the state of trumoil they are in.  Palin and Beck are the two worst people in the world.  They are filled with hate, but wrap themselves in a Bible.  One quits mid term and compares herself to Michael Jordan using a basketball metaphor.  But when did Micahel Jordan ever quit during a game?  As far as Beck is concerned the alcoholics of this world really miss him and he should return to his viliage.
    The GOP ( John Boner) speaks of entitlements such as unemployment. Well unemployment is an insurance that we pay into, not like his racist private golf clubs he belongs to.  He is the biggest sell out that wants the Bush economic agenda to be implemented again.  If anyone out there has played the game of Monopoly, you will understand the republican economic plan.  What happens in the game when one party (GOP) sets up a monpoly?  The money dries up on the table and goes to the one party thus putting everyone else in the game to lose everything.  Sound familiar.  Well we jsut went through the GOP’s version of a monopoly game during the Bush years.  How did it work for you?  Are you better off?  Also the Gop’s paln to restore America is to trash and slander our president and vote no on everything, causing damage to the real Americans that need help after the game the GOP played on us the past tens years.  Wake up America and help send Palin, Beck and Boner back to thier hate filled bunkers wating for the end of the world.

  121. Gerry W. says:

    It is interesting when they have found God or have this vision that they speak for all people. They support an ideology, and there is some truth in that ideology, but when they implement their ideology, they leave out the majority of the population and they leave out what really affects our country. They keep going back to a trickle down theory, and it is so much more to running the country. We saw the tax cuts under Bush and then it was laissez-faire thereafter. It is not to say that democrats are any better, but republicans come across as hypocrites. Everything Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin said, didn’t mean a hill of beans to people who lost their jobs. They have to ask why we lost those jobs. Of course, they will never find the answer if they have their heads in the Bible.
    They want us to be like them. But how many people can be a John Wayne, an Elvis, or a Bill Gates. And if you are not a Bill Gates and you want to survive on a middle class wage, they blame you for being paid too much, while the Gordon Gekko’s go on making more money. If they give tax cuts, sure there will be a percent that makes it to the top, but the majority will stay on to have a job, a house, and take care of their family. And it is their ignorance and arrogance that consistently fails the American people. Their tax cuts are up here and it just does not trickle down. And because of that, more investigation and more management has to be done at the level where most common people are at. In the end, when the private sector fails-it fails for the little guy. And they cannot comprehend that, because we got the tax cuts and we should have been wealthy with those tax cuts.
    Talking about God and country is some abstract ideology that has nothing to do with managing the economy and dealing with our problems.