Thursday’s Forum
Steven L. Taylor
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Thursday, December 22, 2022
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67 comments
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor of Political Science and a College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored
A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog).
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Two associates of Sam Bankman-Fried plead guilty to fraud charges in FTX fall
Why do I get the feeling this is not good news for SBF?
In a country that insists every citizen has a right to be armed at all times, I fail to see the relevance behind whether Dean knew she was armed or not. She was in her own home, with her young nephew, while strange men were skulking about her back yard. Of course she grabbed a gun. And seeing as she had that constitutional right, Dean as an agent of the govt was sworn to protect her rights, not to deny them to her.
Either way, this story is nothing but sad. This conviction is not good news, just less awful news than an acquittal would have been.
Nobody should have to carry so much.
Zelenskyy and…
If a picture is worth a thousand words, 2 must be worth a million.
What did people compare the brain to before computers were invented?
@OzarkHillbilly:
Best comment on Bankman_Fried’s predicament:
@Kathy:
Telephone exchange!
Henri Bergson
I recall seeing a picture in a popular science book dating from the 1930’s with an artists picture of a cutaway head with telephone exchange operators sat inside it.
@JohnSF: Yep. Stick a fork in him, he’s done.
This NYT piece provoked a bit of thought this morning, Quiz: You Can’t Say That! (Or Can You?) (sorry, it can’t be gifted). Despite the title it is not prescriptive, but rather a survey followed by a discussion. It made me realize that, for me, some of these are based on my lived experience. For instance, I consider “Asians” and “Asian Americans” to be two distinct groups, whereas it seems most people, including Asian Americans, consider them interchangeable. But I lived in Asia, so that might contribute. And I also would never say “I’m Irish”. My parents were Irish, although they were Irish immigrants, and I would consider them also Irish Americans as they were naturalized and became citizens.
As for “AAPI” (Asian American Pacific Islander), it just seems wrong in so many ways. First, why are the people of Asian descent “Americans” while Pacific Islanders are lumped in with citizens of that area? And to the extent I’m familiar with Pacific Islanders (my wife lived several years in Fiji before we were married and I visited her there), they would scoff at the idea that they are Asians. They see the South Seas or Pacific Islands as their main association, not Asia. If they were going to talk about a larger area culturally and economically, I’m pretty sure it would include Australia and New Zealand. And how would you account for native Fijians who are not of “Native Fijian”descent but rather of Indian descent, who have been there for many generations and make up half the population but who are prohibited from owning land?
I appreciate that the primary drive in all this is to stop “othering” people and that is a good motivation. But all too often the rules concocted in some rarefied aerie of academia strike me as demonstrating as little understanding of the actual world than those they are trying to “educate”. And then to be smugly reprimanded bu these self appointed thought police…
@JohnSF:
I sometimes think science popularizations run in fads.
What will we compare the brain to next?
In ancient times, it wasn’t clear what the brain did. Some philosophers claimed it served to cool down the blood. Some historians tend to give the impression it’s the one organ without an apparent purpose, but the liver and kidneys really just sit there and have no immediately apparent purpose.
@MarkedMan: “And then to be smugly reprimanded bu these self appointed thought police…”
And awaaaaay we go!
@MarkedMan:
You generally don’t see Americans identifying by the nationality of their parents or grandparents. Someone whose grandmother was from Norway doesn’t say “I’m Norwegian.” Historically, however, there is some precedent for Irish-Americans and Italian-Americans doing this, probably because they developed distinct subcultures in America connected to their ancestral homelands and did suffer some discrimination historically (there’s a book called How the Irish Became White). I remember President Reagan saying “I can tell [that joke], being Irish.” This practice has waned in recent years, though I still hear “I’m Italian” from time to time from people who have probably never set foot in Italy.
@Kylopod:
That national heritage ID can be regional. When I lived in Minnesota it wasn’t unusual for folks to ID has Swedish or Norwegian and strived to keep cultural totems alive.
For those of Irish and Italian heritage, in part it was due to the large numbers, sometimes whole families and significant portions of villages. My best friend grew up in an Italian American neighborhood in Lynn, Ma and his mother’s family, including cousins, emigrated within a period of a few years and all settled in the same Lynn neighborhood. Add to that several of his mother’s childhood friends also emigrated to that neighborhood.
But indeed the claim to a certain national heritage fades over time.
@Kathy: Steel trap. He has a mind like a steel trap. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/like-a-steel-trap
@MarkedMan:
Yes, AAPI is absurd and should be offensive. Then again, ‘Asian-American’ is itself ridiculous. Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai, Japanese. . . not the same people. Adding the hyphenate does not make Nepalese into Koreans.
There are 4.5 billion people living on the continent of Asia, more than half the human race, but we bundle them all together because they all have epicanthic folds in their eyes. Really, that’s it: slanted eyes makes them all the same. In fact, the American view of ‘Asian’ excludes much of actual Asia, starting with the tiny population of that obscure country called India. In Britain, Indians and Pakistanis are Asians. Not in the US, because they don’t have the epicanthic fold. ‘Asian-American’ is not about culture, it’s about superficial physical differences that take White European as the norm.
Same with Africa, of course, where we exclude Saharan Africa cuz they aren’t dark enough, but happily conflate Hutus and Xhosa not because they share a culture but because they have a high melanin content in their skin.
Only Europeans get the more granular treatment. Italian-American, Irish-American, Greek-American, not European-American, because who would conflate Finns and Spanish people? That’d be crazy. I mean, sure they’re both white, but such different cultures!
We invent these absurd categories for the convenience of the White population, using White Europeans as the norm and reducing the remaining 90% of humanity to identities based on skin color and eye shape. And then we argue over which reductionist, historically ignorant, geographically absurd label is the most progressive.
@OzarkHillbilly:
Those are priceless.
@Slugger:
Good one.
@Michael Reynolds: Not too long ago I saw people praising a movie because they went out of their way to use “authentic” casting and use Asians or Asian Americans or Europeans to play characters that were Asian in the book (I’m a little fuzzy here because while I remember the incident I don’t remember the specific movie and can’t look it up. But at least one character receiving praise was a specifically Chinese character being played by an ethnically Japanese actor. Now, I didn’t take a poll but I’m willing to bet your average Chinese viewer who gave a sh*t about such things would rather have the part be whitewashed than go to a Japanese actor.
The title says it all:
http://www.thebulwark.com/putins-useful-idiots-right-wingers-lose-it-over-zelensky-visit
Donnie Junior thinks Zelensky is a “welfare queen.”
@CSK: Man, reading the garbage the right-wing idiot caucus is dribbling out its collective gob got me really angry.
@Sleeping Dog:
I’ve been to Minnesota only once, while in my teens. I was amazed at the ethnic homogeneity in some areas. Of course Minneapolis has some diversity, but I’m talking about the rural parts. Not only was everyone I saw white, but very Scandinavian. I know I’m exaggerating as this is from a memory from nearly 30 years ago, but it felt like everyone had blonde or blondish hair and a snub nose. My mother entered a bank, and the person actually asked her, “What country are you from?”
My mother is an Ashkenazi Jew from Jersey. Her parents are from Poland, but she was born and raised in the states. I know “What country are you from?” is one of those standard ignorant questions that often get thrown at people of certain racial backgrounds, primarily Asian Americans. This was the only time I’ve ever heard it asked of an American-born Ashkenazi Jew.
@Mikey:
The irony of Donnie Junior calling someone else a welfare queen is rich, isn’t it?
@Kylopod:
Very interesting observation. In New England, it’s mostly urban or inner suburban working class people who, even after several generations, refer to themselves as Italian, Polish, Portuguese, or Irish.
The affluent and educated among these groups think of themselves as simply American, to the extent they think about it at all.
@CSK: Any self awareness lately?
Over at NYT Charles Blow has, as usual, an excellent column, Gods Don’t Bleed. Trump is Bleeding* which includes the best short description of what’s happened to us I recall seeing.
Twisted propaganda. For 60 years from Republicans and 26 years from FOX “News”. To claim this is the fault of BLM or AOC or Oberlin undergrads or Stanford University is an expression of Murc’s Law, the widespread fallacy that only Democrats have agency in American politics.
* I think I gifted that without paywall. Let me know if it worked.
@OzarkHillbilly:
On Junior’s part? Not a chance.
@CSK: How’s about a nice steaming mug of STFU then? Yeah, I know, dreams I’ll never see.
@gVOR08:
Worked for me. Thanks.
It was a good piece, but I don’t quite agree that the hardcore MAGAs are ready to turn on Trump.
@OzarkHillbilly:
Well, if we’re all lucky, Junior and the rest of his loathsome family may well sink into ignominious obscurity one day. Let that day be soon.
Well, my luck finally ran out and I got COVID
@Stormy Dragon:
Well, shit. I hope your case is very mild.
@Stormy Dragon:
A tele-health doctor will prescribe Paxlovid regardless of age. I got two rounds. Both times it knocked the virus down pretty quickly.
@Stormy Dragon:
As Michael has already advised, get Paxlovid as soon as possible. I hope it’s short and mild.
Poking around on my new iPhone SE.
That’s pretty slick since I just activated the iPhone less than 24 hours ago.
My old LG phone used Opera Mini not Safari.
I do use Safari on my MacBook Air. Maybe they know about each other already. They were both next to each other on the bed for a few minutes yesterday.
Might be like cats in heat and it’s too late to keep them apart…
@Stormy Dragon: Definitely not a Christmas present anyone would want. Good luck to you for a quick and mild COVID experience.
@Kylopod:
I don’t know where you live, but… everywhere I’ve lived or traveled, people identify by their heritage (and they don’t hyphenate). I’m Croatian (50%), and on the other side English, Irish, German, French, and Yankee[1]. When people in the US ask, I say I’m Croatian. When I’m overseas, I say I’m American[2].
Around Wisconsin, everyone will tell you (proudly) that they’re Norwegian, German, or Swiss–even though their ancestors came to America over a hundred years ago. Go down to Chicago, and people are Irish, Italian, Sicilian, Croatian, Chinese, and Bavarian. Zero hyphens.
Absolutely everyone I know says “I’m [heritage]”. Milwaukee is known for it’s [heritage] fests. Irish Fest, Italian Fest, etc. Madison has Greek Fest. If I walk up to anyone and say “I’m Croatian, what are you?”, they’ll respond with the heritage of their family without giving it a second thought. On March 17th, you’ll see T-shirts proclaiming “Kiss me, I’m Irish” everywhere you look.
I’ve lived in the Great Lakes region, Tidewater, and Texas. I’ve traveled to 40 states. With the exception of my maternal grandfather (and a few who didn’t know), absolutely every time I’ve gotten into a conversation about ancestry, the person has said “I’m [heritage]” (often listing them all out, but sometimes just stating the most significant one).
The only exceptions I’ve run into are where the culture supersedes the nationality [3][4]. E.g., Hmong is a cultural that exists in a region that crosses several national borders. And Amish is an insular culture that exists within a nation, but identifies more with the cultural heritage than the political/national heritage.
TL;DR:
People all over the US absolutely identify by the nationality of their parents or grandparents (or further back).
====
[1] It’s a sub-culture of England, similar to saying “I’m Amish” or “I’m Cajun” in the US.
[2] Stanford can kiss my ass. Everywhere understands that “American” means “from the United States of America”. My associates from Mexico, Brazil, and Peru never referred to themselves as “American”. They’re Mexican, Brazilian, and Peruvian.
[3] There are a few regional/cultural identities that some people use, such as “Amish” or “Cajun”.
[4] Roma would also fit into this category, but I’ve never met a Roma (that I know of).
I’m making pasta with oil and garlic with beef. It tastes right in my head, which has sometimes worked and sometimes not.
The idea is to mix minced garlic with olive oil for several hours, the pour it onto a hot pan (yes, carefully). Roast/fry the garlic for a minute or two, before it begins to brown, and remove it from the heat. Next in goes a bit more olive oil, a very small amount of chopped onion (abt. 1/4 of a small onion), and ground beef.
Once that’s cooked, in goes the pasta, the oil and garlic, and a sprinkle of black pepper and paprika. Toss well and you’re done.
@Michael Reynolds:
I have the day off because of the (supposed) snowpocalyspe, so I’ve had a couple glasses of scotch.
Do NOT get me started on the idea that “African” is a viable category[1]. As if Egyptians and Zulu were the same!
===
[1] And, as the recent post here highlighted, the term “African-American” is absolutely stupid. I have, on more than one occasion, had to correct someone when they referred to someone as “African-American” when that person was not “American” in any way (e.g., they’re British–or {gasp} from a country in Africa).
@Kylopod:
LoL, I moved to Mpls in 1977, I
havehad dark brown hair and there were times that I might have been the only non-blond in a room, but going outstate, I could have been the only non-blond in town and probably the shortest adult.But the twin cities were positively diverse compared to the rest of the state.
@Mister Bluster:
On my android phone, I went to the DuckDuckGo browser for reasons unrelated to privacy and they’ve added a tracking blocker for apps. In the past week, it has blocked 550 attempts at tracking all from the same app, Yahoo Mail, and all by the same data aggregator, ComScore. Periodically other apps try and track but usually give up.
Doesn’t this demolish Trump’s defense that he believed he actually won the election???
http://www.rawstory.com/cassidy-hutchinson-testimony-transcript/
@CSK:
It’s like this: Benito has no defense.
There is one universally valid defense of a coup: successfully effecting the coup. The victor can justify anything, and they often do. But even this defense comes with an expiration date, unless you’re willing to hold on to the stolen power to the bitter end.
@CSK: I’ll be happy when they end up sleeping under a bridge wishing they had a coat hanger with which to cook their unseasoned sparrow for dinner.
@Stormy Dragon: Shit. May it be short, sweet, and mild.
@Kathy:
“When you come at the Constitution, you best not miss”
By now most people at the office have either gotten over a cold or are going through one. Alas, I kept no tally. My intention is to pass on cold, flu, and especially COVID. I’ve a mask, and hand sanitizer, and I try to maintain some distance.
So far it’s working, but it’s not that much different from pre-pandemic times. Back then I had hand sanitizer and kept my distance. Usually I caught cold anyway, eventually. Sometimes it took a while.
Also I’m still not going out much. I need to go to the store once or twice a week. I’ve also attended some social functions. From time to time I go to the bank, and sometimes to a subsidiary office some distance away to return or get documents from the company files*. Past that, nothing. And I still mask wherever I go.
I think I stand a good chance, say 80%, of getting to April without any illness.
*That’s actually a nice diversion. It’s far enough away to drive, so I get to listen some more to books or podcasts.
@Kathy:
Good point. But Trump’s defense is going to work with people who still genuinely believe the election was “rigged and stolen.” And those are the MAGAs with the most violent tendencies.
@OzarkHillbilly:
Prison would do it for me.
@Kathy:
Bit like me in that regard, then. 😉
@Mu Yixiao:
As if every African-American knows what country his ancestors were stolen from.
@Mu Yixiao:
Sometimes I think, despite the tinges of rampant nationalism, ol’ Teddy might have had a point here.
It must be mentioned this was in the context of checking the questioning of “German-America” loyalties in 1915. Other white people.
Hannity and the others claim they knew all along that Trump’s claims of election fraud were bullshit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/21/business/media/sean-hannity-fox-trump-election.html
@CSK:
Of course they did. And the truth comes out when testifying under oath at the risk of jail time for lying. None of those cretins are going to go to jail for trump.
@Sleeping Dog:
The interesting thing is that long before all the election fraud nonsense started, the MAGAs had decided that Fox was doing Deep State globalist anti-Trump propaganda.
Fox is in the same position Mike Pence is now–despised by both sides.
@Michael Reynolds:
@Mu Yixiao:
My English, Welsh, and Lithuanian heritage is important to me and they are little nuggets of identity. I am much more in tune with my English and Lithuanian heritage than my kids are with their English, Welsh, Scots, Irish, Lithuanian*and Italian heritage because I knew and touched those people. But I’ve been to England, and other than my dad’s valiant attempts to beat Middle Class English values into me (I do respect a line though and I’m exceedingly polite) I know full well that I’m not English.
If there was a core heritage for me that overwhelms all other ethnic identities it would definitely be my Chicago heritage. How loopy would that sound though. “I’m a Chicagoan-American.” I’d sound like an idiot. But that’s where I would be. I’m informed by the almost 200 years of maniacs, in my family alone, that found this particular place and said to themselves, “yup, these are our crazies. Now let’s complain about them.” Also, screw the Northside! They can all choke on their own farts.
*my daughter won the Baltic-Brittanic lottery in that she’s so pale she glows in the dark. If she didn’t have dark-ish hair and freckles, she’d look like Mr. Burns glowing like a radioactive ghost. You could give her a sunburn with a flashlight.
I’d like to see an analysis on how many Teslas involved in accidents were running the illusory “self-driving” mode. I’m willing to bet they constitute a majority of accidents, or a large fraction.
I say illusory because the company warns people that “.. its advanced self-driving technology requires “active driver supervision” and its vehicles “are not autonomous”.
Drivers are also warned when they install FSD that it “may do the wrong thing at the worst time”.”
Maybe they should be sold with a complimentary life insurance policy.
@Mikey:
a) Given that the slave trade was reasonably localized, Black Americans can probably narrow their ancestry down to about 10% of the continent. Again: Algerians and Zulu are absolutely nothing alike (they’re over 10,000 miles apart–about the same distance from Louisville, KY to Santiago, Chile. Or, about twice the distance from Chicago to Moscow). Insisting that everyone from Africa is the same is not only factually incorrect, it effectively erases thousands of cultures. It says “Oh. They all have dark skin, so they’re all the same.” I have some friends from Africa (Morocco, Zimbabwe, Nigeria, South Africa), and I’m pretty sure they’ll be the first to tell you that their cultures are nothing alike.
b) [snark]I think you’ll find that that the officially approved term is now “Black” (capitalized). “African-American” marginalizes those with dark skin who trace their ancestry through the Caribbean, Cuba, and the Pacific Islands, while incorrectly including those from North Africa (e.g., Morocco and Egypt) who were never “persons who were enslaved” by white, heterosexual, cis-males of European decent, as well as African-born white, heterosexual, cis-males of European decent (see: Elon Musk).
Please do keep up. How are we supposed to eliminate racism if we don’t all use the officially proscribed terminology?[/snark]
@dazedandconfused:
When, as a kid, we would sit around the table at my grandparents and talk about our heritage, Grandpa would end the discussion by aggressively (and grandpa was never aggresive) saying “We’re American!”
My father grew up speaking Croatian. As a kid, I asked him to teach me how to speak it. He wouldn’t. Because we were American.
@OzarkHillbilly: Three points:
1) We talkin’ bout Texas.
2)
3)
Are you still wondering, or should I [CRT TRIGGER WARNING!!!] go into the detail that the notion that “every citizen has a right to be armed at all times” does not apply equally to all people–especially in Texas? (Not even mentioning that Texas has bunches and bunches of people who are not considered “citizens” in the first place.) 😉
@Kylopod:
I had dinner once with a Scottish naturalist who was part of the scientific crew on an expedition cruise. He said that he liked Americans in general, but he really couldn’t stand the recurring experience of saying “I’m Scottish” and having an American reply “Really?! Me too!”
@CSK: My take on your point is that working class people have not as successfully assimilated into the society given that they work in jobs that are considered loser/throwaway positions that don’t need compensation that conforms to the needs of living urban lives.
Of course the affluent and educated ones are not going to think of themselves that way. They’re white now. Working class people are only “white” as compared to “black/hispanic/whatever.” But we know we’re not really white.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
That’s probably true. I wonder if identifying primarily as Italian, Irish, Portuguese, etc. was an act of defiance against those Anglo-Saxons who considered themselves the true Americans.
@Just nutha ignint cracker: Yeah, I know. My mother was a born and bred Texan. I was born there (Texas City, Texas)(how much more Texas can it get?) My parents rescued me from that birthright when I was 4 mos old, but I spent a considerable amount of time in the loving arms of my (somewhat) racist grand parents and spent a little bit of time there as an adult. (just a little bit)
So, yeah, I get the complexities of Texas in a way that those who have never done anything more than look at it from hundreds of miles away (or just driven thru it).
Still, “11 years, 10 months and 12 days”… As her sister said,
That is something anyway.
@Mu Yixiao:
Alternately, your father (bless his heart) saw that America was a multicultural country, and saw that one culture was treated way better than the others, and decided that he would stuff his own heritage into a box and bury it in the back yard to be exhumed on special occasions, and all the rest of the time, he was going to do everything he could to blend into that dominant culture. And your grandfather seems like he was on board with that too.
It’s possible that the Croatians (Croats?) have a rich and vibrant culture that is worth preserving and celebrating and mining for Disney animated movies (are there any princesses?), but it gets paved over in this country with a bland uniformity.
The whole “America is a melting pot, so melt already” mentality elides the fact that there are some people who cannot melt unnoticed into the dominant broth. It’s never worked for anyone who isn’t white or can at least pass.
@Mu Yixiao: @Beth:
I’m Jewish in the presence of anti-semites, but otherwise don’t care one way or the other. My birth father is some sort of White guy but that’s all I know, and I’ve never had the slightest desire to meet him. I’ve just never cared about my roots – those people in the past are not important to me. Perhaps because of my example my daughter, who is Chinese, seems uninterested in going back to Tong Ling. Her bf is Salvadoran and she’s frequently mistaken for Hispanic and DGAF.
@Beth:
Beth – our family is going for our Lithuanian citizenship. Those displaced due to WWII qualify. That will get me LT and EU passports. (whoo-hoo!)
As to the comments about various global regions and grouping various disparate people together….
I read that Elon Musk was named African-American of the year. https://amgreatness.com/2022/12/19/elon-musk-african-american-of-the-year/
MAGA folk… I just don’t know what to say about ’em… Trolls.
@Beth:
Spoken like a true Southside Lugan. 🙂
The January 6th Committee’s full report is out.
As Hell Week 3 turns into Hell Week 4, I think I’ll just read the highlights in the press.
@CSK: “I don’t quite agree that the hardcore MAGAs are ready to turn on Trump.”
Let’s hope you’re right — we can’t have a Republican civil war unless there’s a significant chunk that’s all Trump to help destroy the rest of the field.