Herman Cain’s Bizarre Immigration Plan: Electrify The Border Fence
Like his tax plan, Herman Cain's immigration plan is not serious.
Herman Cain has decided that the solution to the illegal immigration problem is to not only build a border fence across the entire U.S.-Mexican border, but to electrify it:
Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain said Saturday that part of his immigration policy would be to build an electrified fence on the country’s border with Mexico that could kill people trying to enter the country illegally.
The remarks, which came at two campaign rallies in Tennessee as part of a barnstorming bus tour across the state, drew loud cheers from crowds of several hundred people at each rally. At the second stop, in Harriman, Tenn., Mr. Cain added that he also would consider using military troops “with real guns and real bullets” on the border to stop illegal immigration.
The remarks were among the most pointed yet by Mr. Cain about illegal immigration, and they come as he is enjoying a surge in national political polls on the back of his victory in a recent Florida straw poll. They also follow on remarks made by Representative Michele Bachmann on Saturday during a speech on illegal immigration in Iowa, in which she also advocated a border fence.
It is not the first time that Mr. Cain has floated the idea of an electrified fence. He has told the story many times of a caller to his former radio show who chastised him for talking about building a border fence, saying that such an idea was impractical. Mr. Cain often says he told the caller that he had recently returned from China, and if the Chinese could build the Great Wall then America could build a border fence.
In his remarks on Saturday, Mr. Cain appeared to go a step further. Speaking to a rally sponsored by the Roane County Tea Party, Mr. Cain said that part of his plan would be to “secure the border for real” with a fence.
“It’s going to be 20 feet high. It’s going to have barbed wire on the top. It’s going to be electrified. And there’s going to be a sign on the other side saying, ‘It will kill you — Warning.'” At an earlier rally, on the campus of Tennessee Tech University in Cookeville, Tenn., he added that the sign would be written “in English and in Spanish.”
“This nation has always been a nation with wide open doors,” Mr. Cain said at the second rally. “We want to make it easy for people to come through the front door. And we’re going to shut off the back door so you don’t have to sneak into America.”
On some level, I don’t think this is any more of a serious policy proposal than Cain’s tax plan is. For one thing, it’s not even clear that the border fence itself is every going to be constructed in the way that the anti-immigration zealots in the GOP would like it to be. It’s faced delays due to contracting problems, construction issues, and resistance from land owners who don’t want the government to steal their property for the dubious purpose of building a fence that, like the Great Wall Of China, probably won’t do what it’s intended to do anyway. And electrifying it? Seriously? Surely Cain doesn’t actually believe that’s a realistic proposal, does he? After all, as Rick Moran notes, he’s essentially saying that the punishment for attempting to enter the United States illegally should be death. Even under current law, illegal entry into the United States is, at worst, a minor crime and, in most cases, treated as a civil offense resulting in deportation rather than a criminal offense. Cain would effectively make it a capital crime.
Joe Gandelman makes a broader point, though. If Cain really is serious about an idea like this, then it’s essentially the end of any chance he had at the Republican nomination:
The Republican Party could never nominate anyone who seriously proposes this — unless it truly has a death wish. On the other hand, its possible Rush Limbaugh et. al will applaud this idea. (I need to note that this post is being written from Brooklyn, New York, a city that has more stoops than a talk show host convention).
Karl Rove, the Bush family, and other serious Republican political professionals would be in mourning if he got the nomination without repudiating his own assertion since nominating a candidate who seems to suggest — whether he is or not – that people who try to come over to the United States illegally could face de facto American governnment sanctioned electrocution if they try would further decimate the Republican’s hopes to getting the Hispanic vote.
Republican inroads to getting the Hispanic vote are far more realistic than many smug Democrats realize given the number of attractive Republican GOPers whose personal appeal could help them get Hispanic voters to seriously listen to their words. Plus, a recent poll shows Barack Obama’s support among Latinos is dropping.
YES Cain is charismatic, likeable, firm in his principles and not made of Jello (not to mention names but one Republican flip flopper and a certain Democratic President who has been struggling with smoking come to mind), and blessed with the sunniest political personal since Ronald Reagan.
But he is not mainstream with this idea.
Perhaps not, but it’s the kind of moronic, simplistic thinking on a complex issue like immigration that appeals to the Republican base these days. If it comes up at the debate on Tuesday, I’d expect that Cain will be wildly applauded, even in a state like Nevada with a growing Hispanic population. And the supposed moderate in the race, Mitt Romney, is using immigration as a wedge issue to attack the supposedly more conservative Rick Perry. Anyone who thinks that extremism on immigration is going to hurt a candidate in a Republican primary is fooling themselves. Unfortunately, the idiocy that Cain displays with these remarks is emblematic of the very voters he is trying to appeal to.
Update: Cain said on Meet The Press this morning that he was joking when he suggested electrifying the border fence. Draw from that whatever conclusions you choose.
Cain is a clown trying to sell books.
Interesting that so many Republican Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates are compulsive grifters with no interest in government. Kinda makes you wonder if the entire ideology is simply a long con.
I would build a mote and fill it with gators! And make the southern border one big a$$ military base!
And I would go with the 9-9-9 plan, except for liberal millionaires(ones that make like 50K and up a year), for them I would go like 99-99-99.
There is a loud (not sure how large) contingent on the right that suggests everything from arming the volunteer watchers to shoot on sight to landmining the border. Serious or not, that’s music to their ears from Cain. It wouldn’t surprise me to see some of the other candidates try to one up him by pledging to make illegal immigration a felony.
Can we please stop taking this con man seriously? Between idiocy like this & his demand that Muslims take an extra-special loyalty oath, to his miniscule fundraising, to his refusal to actually campaign in areas that are voting, it’s becoming painfully obvious that this guy has no interest in actually being the candidate. He’s just another grifter looking to make his name big enough for the gullible tools to hand over their money. Nothing more.
He was joking? Dang. A 999 volt fence plan had a lot of potential. Maybe he can revive it by saying he was just joking when he said he said he was just joking.
I am pretty sure that a Republican making a bizarre proposal is not news. Now if someone was to say something rational…
Last I read, he has still not made public his list of advisers. Would GOP supporters actually vote for someone not knowing who he is using for expertise?
Why buy a mote, when you could just take one from your neighbor’s eye?
@steve: It’s the Koch brothers. What more do you need to know?
Don’t look now, Joe Gandelman, but I think the Hispanics in Alabama are listening real close to the words coming from the GOP. My money says, so are the rest of the Hispanics in America.
@john personna: Indeed. Amping up the rhetoric with this well grounded plan is Cain’s only hope to electrify the base. This will put the spark back in his campaign.
“Why buy a mote, when you could just take one from your neighbor’s eye? ”
Stormy wins the internets for the day
>Plus, a recent poll shows Barack Obama’s support among Latinos is dropping.
I’d like to see that poll in context. Is it dropping more readily among Latinos than among other groups? Or is it just a reflection of Obama’s falling ratings with the country as a whole?
Still, when it comes to the Latino vote, Republicans have nothing to worry about. They can talk about frying all the illegals they want, and it won’t make a bit of difference, because all they have to do is nominate Rubio at the bottom of the ticket, then suddenly all the Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Mexican-Americans, and every other group that gets classed as “Hispanic or Latino” under the U.S. census will flock to the GOP in droves. Worked wonders for Palin with all those female Hillary voters, right?
…and put sharks with friggin’ lasers on their head in the Rio Grande.
I don’t think this proposal goes far enough. Are we supposed to just wait passively until our border is assaulted by evildoers? Armed with leaf-blowers and pruning shears these are dangerous terrorists bent on picking our fruit and cleaning our homes. They must be stopped.
That’s why my plan combines Cain’s active, forward-leaning defense with Perry’s desire to send troops into Mexico. I call it my, “Stop Them In Mexico Before We Have To Stop Them In the Home Deport Parking Lot” plan.
Yeah, it’s a bit wordy. We’ll get it down to bumper sticker size in time for the election.
Under my plan American soldiers would invade Mexico, find anyone with gardening, stoop labor or child care skills and shoot them. (It’s the kind of work Special Forces are made for.) This would reduce the number of Mexicans who might otherwise assault our electrified fence and be fried.
The energy savings alone would be tremendous.
Better scratch leaf blowers and substitute rakes/brooms in that satire, as such gas/electrical gardening tools are now banned in many CA communities, deemed socially/politically/environmentally/noisily incorrect.
Ron Beasley is correct…Cain could be the first President to wear corporate sponsorship patches on his suit…like NASCAR drivers.
Idiocracy #2, soon in a theater near you.
Having Cain in the race makes the slightly less insane Republican candidates look normal by comparison.
Perhaps that’s what the Koch bros. are thinking?
>Having Cain in the race makes the slightly less insane Republican candidates look normal by comparison.
I’ve been having that thought for a long time, even before Cain’s recent surge in the polls. Just about every candidate in this race (Huntsman is the only exception, I think) has been saying certifiably deranged things. Now that T-Paw’s gone, Mitt’s practically been anointed “the sane candidate” of this cycle, even though he has said things like “We are only inches away from ceasing to be a free market economy,” which sounds like the sort of thing only a Gingrich would have said ten years ago. In any case, anyone who believes a President Romney will govern as a moderate is fooling themselves. He is a puppet of the party whose nomination he seeks, and he will go along with their far-right economic agenda, doing everything in his power to make taxes on rich people even lower than they are now and to help dismantle America’s safety net. Of course he will be constrained by the government he’s presiding over–I’m not expecting something like the FairTax ever to get past even a GOP-controlled Senate anytime soon–but the same is true of Perry or Cain or Bachmann or anyone else who occupies the Oval Office. If anything, his desire to prove his right-wing bonafides may make him more aggressive in the service of this agenda than his Tea Party rivals, who have more latitude from not having to gain that faction’s trust.
Welcome, everyone, to tea party America.
According the Rush, yeah, pretty much. Remember that according to him race was why Colin Powell supported Obama. Likewise Cain thinks his “true blackness” (as opposed to Obama’s half-blackness) is why he’ll have the support of the AA community.
On a more serious note — between this and the popularity of 9/9/9 (at least with the base and some pundits) I have to wonder if Cain may actually be doing what Palin always threatened to do (but never delivered on): run a successful “non-traditional” campaign.
We know he isn’t at all competing in fundraising (though supposedly his book sales are going well — which is money that goes directly to him vs. the campaign fund). That said, despite his low campaign burn, his poll numbers are still high, and he’s got at least the momentary support of the grassroots base. And right now he’s got the eye of both the mainstream and conservative talk media.
Compare that to Ron Paul, who is raising a significant amount of campaign funds, but not seeing an equivalent amount of traction (or Perry who for the moment has been burning through cash and falling behind in the polls).
Who cares waht Cain wants to do at the border. In addtion, who cares what any of the Republicans running for president want to do on immigraiton policy. None of them will ever be president and the Democrats will either have control of the House of the Senate.
The only immigration policy that is relevant is what the Democrats are planning to do on immigration and so far, the Democrats appear to support a program of open borders, unlimited immigration, and a level of accommodation that would require people born in the U.S. to learn Spanish to be able to get a job.
Not enough dems support open borders and unlimited immigration. I do though. God forbid someone have to compete for jobs based on ability rather then privilege.
Or we could go through the stupidity we have now where people have to compete on the basis of which country has the lowest living standards. How has that worked out for us?
Supe’s anal sphincter is tightening up so much, soon you won’t be able to drive a needle up it with a sledgehammer.
How about if we make a border fence out of electrified windmills with really sharp blades and solar panels for back up? We can paint up the solar panels like a really long moat with gators.
With all that and the real moat, gators and sharks with lazes,and the super-base. ha ha, now that’s a plan.
I know,I know, but what about nighttime?
We stock the area with honey badgers trained sniff out to pot and cocaine.
I shall create jobs energy security and a cool A$$ wildlife refuge!!!!
We could give the soldiers swords spears blowguns and crossbows and go totally green.
lol they could ride Jackasses and we could call it Fort Compromise:)
Look at Monster.com for San Antonio Texas. Many of the jobs listed state: Must be fluent in Spanish. Here is an example for a pharmacy technician. http://jobview.local-jobs.monster.com/Certified-Bilingual-Spanish-Pharmacy-Technician-Job-San-Antonio-TX-US-103199629.aspx?ch=sanantonio. Notice that the add does not require the individaul to be fluent in English.
As the populations of Mexico and Central America move to the U.S. many more jobs will have the requirement of “Must be fluent in Spanish. and why should someone who was born in the U.S. be required to learn a second language just to be employed.
The goddamn place is called SAN ANTONIO
Ask some of the farmers in Alabama and Georgia about immigration laws and the effects on their business. I prefer to buy tomatoes and other vegetables grown in the U.S., not China or Chile.
Who is going to go out in the fields and pick them? Part of a sensible plan would be to deport any illegal immigrant who is arrested for a felony, require college or military service, learn the English language (supposed to already be a requirement for citizenship), and help pay for government services based on an income scale. I know several Hispanic families. They work very hard, are very faithful Christians, obey the law, their children are smart and well behaved, and their parents always respect their children’s teachers. What more can we expect of people? There are some bad apples in every group. Those are the ones to deport, preferably to some desert in Iran.
Presuming that Cain is about to be in freefall again (not just from this but a number of bad news/idiotic actions recently) does Perry manage to rebound? Can they just yoyo back and forth? Or are we about to get another bout of “who will save us from this turbulent primary?”
meanwhile Romney has to be smiling. The republicans just may nominate a sane candidate in spite of themselves. Or more specifically in spite of the teabagger base.
@superdestroyer: How is the Spanish language a threat or a concern? Also, in your example there, I’m fairly sure knowing English is expected when the job title includes “bilingual”.
Back to Herman Cain, at this point he’s best know for either saying things that he later has to explain were jokes, and a tax plan that everyone else knows is a joke even if he doesn’t. I’d like to think these should disqualify someone from even getting close to the nomination, but maybe he really is the best representative of just how much a joke the
GOPtea party really is? Raise revenue by cutting taxes! Save Medicare, no socialized medicine! Create jobs by cutting government spending (and laying off people)! End the economic uncertainty, don’t raise the debt ceiling!
At this point we should be asking why his complete lack of realistic plans wouldn’t win the nomination.
Why do you presume that? What has Cain done to alienate the Perry/Bachmann followers who shifted to supporting him? It seems to me he’s yet to make the type of mistakes Perry did… and his current momentum and credentials tops Bachmann (not to mention that he provides “feel good” points for those wishing to show that they are a color-blind voter).
Er, the ad is in English, no?
Uh, maybe because the business’s customer base speaks the language? I’m pretty sure being fluent in Korean, or Chinese, or Italian, or Arabic, or Russian, or whatever is a condition of employment in businesses in many of the large cities of our nation, as much as that upsets you.
Cain implodes – he never had much of a chance, or an interest, in the first place. Either Perry comes back or Gingrich gets a shot – the GOP just won’t elect someone who is not a patriarchal white guy, it’s not in them.
If Romney did get the nod it would almost assure Obama’s re-election. It would be much funner for the base to hate on the liberal Kenyan Socialist than to actually try to achieve something with the mostly pragmatic flip-flopping Mormon guy – they will stay home.
@G.A.Phillips: How about Fort G Spot!
Cain’t wait to see his program on domestic crime! I’ve always thought the flagrant disregard for speed limits in the USA needs drastic action. You know…like cars exploding when they go too fast!!
Seems like Disney had a cartoon in the 50’s about future Superhighways. The cops had a big flying jails that went around and grabbed violators right off the road!
Come on Herman. You R going to have to articulate a domestic policy sometime.
” than to actually try to achieve something with the mostly pragmatic flip-flopping Mormon guy – they will stay home.”
Or we get a VP candidate who appeals to the red meat crowd. Much more likely IMO.
“I was only joking.”
The standard defense for any Republican caught saying something un-American.
Cain runnng for president in 2012 is not more relevant than Al Sharpton’s campaign for president in 2004. I hope the Republicans are smart enough to not let Cain speak at the convention like the Democrats let Shaprton speak in 2004 but somehow the La Raza Republicanswill probably believe that letting a no-talent AA hire like Cain speak will help them appeal to people who think the Republicans are racist. .
I agree that is likely, but then you get another Palin VP 2008 situation where Romney becomes a joke among the independents. Would you vote a ticket where Bachmen or Perry is one heartbeat away from the presidency?
@G.A.Phillips: Why do you hate Christ?
Yup, i just can’t figure out why people think Republicans are racist.
the real question is why do people believe that the Democratic Party is not racist when the Democratic Party is the one that supports separate and unequal, racial quotas, affiramative action, and blatant racial double standards.
The Democratic governor in Michigan was found by the federal courts to have violated the civil rights of white students. The Democratic controlled state of Virginia had a school summer program that excluded whites. The Democrats in Seattle and Louisville were found to have violated the civil rights of students when they started race based school assignment programs.
I guess these days, the only way to not be seen as a racist is to support racist policies.
I was actually wondering if Palin might not have been subtly thinking of Cain when she made that remark during one of her interviews. Because, on the surface his campaign seems more like a lone ranger affair, where he is going around the country, selling his ideas, his book with little to do with an actual campaign.
However, the MSM is now delving into Herman Cain’s ties with Americans for Prosperity organization, which is largely funded by the Koch Brothers. I can hear a universal gasp on the blog now. Apparently Cain, though, has been quite active for many years going around the country being a speaker at AFP functions, growing this organization’s base in various states, as well as raising his own stature with this grass roots base. When I was reading this about Cain, his popularity now seems like it could be less of a fluke and more of a long term political calculation.
Read the article and I’m curious what you think.
Yes, those darned blacks with an average net worth 1/20 of the average white family have so much power, and get so much free stuff. How ever will exclusive caucasian privilege survive . . .
His last debate performance was lackluster, even conservative pundits are tearing into the 9-9-9 plan, his fundraising was anemic, he’s continued to average one big gaffe every month or so… there’s been plenty of bad news for Cain, plus he’s scheduled to take a month off campaigning in order to do a book tour. That’s with the potential of the first primaries only a month and a half away at the soonest and two and a half months at the furthest.
Do the wingnuts really think that by being racists they will attract minority votes to the Reepublican party?
Obama currently has huge leads over Romney, Cain and Perry among women voters…time for the fringe right to break out the misogyny.
I know we are all very impressed by Cain’s new stature at the Koch Industries house negro.
The “grass roots base” is an anchor that will drag down & drown the GOP.
Seattle really? You do realize you’re arguing for the right of white people to not have to go to schools with minorities right? The seattle ruling basically outlawed forced INTEGRATION.
Let me guess, you also think the civil rights act violates the civil rights of upstanding racist shopkeeps.
Seriously dude, what kind of upbringing do you have to get to develop this ridiculous sense of entitlement and privilege. I mean good god, speaking spanish in san antonio… IT’S TEXAS. They have spanish churches in that city that are older than the united states itself. How can someone seriously rail against a cultural and immigration flow that’s been occurring for centuries? Because you happened to grow up speaking english in whatever whitebread WASP community you’re from?
That is a perfect example of a racist statement.
two for two
I guess it all depends on who is in that grass roots base, and how many there are of them. It seems you rebuke people not known to you, and make predictions out of thin air.
Honey, I was HN (I realize you will not know what that means) in my hometown back in the days when a white boy like me had to be ready to fight because i had black friends. I grew up eating gumbo and grits, and listening to Moms Mabley. The list of black folks I have been tight with for 40+ years is a fairly long one, and I am pretty confident none of them would have a problem with my saying that. You should probably read the Autobiography of Malcom X sometime and gain a little insight.
Run along Breck Girl…
@superdestroyer: As a local resident I can assure you they are assuming the applicants will have the proper English skills already mastered…
I don’t care how gritty you describe yourself as being., nor how many black friends you hung with. Maybe you feel that may give you some kind of special racist rights to say things that are racially inappropriate, especially for a ‘white boy.’ Rationalize it if that makes you feel on top of your game. However, you are a bit of a hypercrite as far as I’m concerrned.
And who will toil all day in the hot sun picking bodies off the fence? This may be another of those jobs that US citizens will not do no matter what the wages might be*.
*assuming your definition of “no matter what the wages might be” means $10.50 an hour without benefits
I seriously doubt you have sufficient imagination to grasp just how little I care about what you think of me. You are full of sh*t, and everyone here knows it.
You know Jan, since you are so concerned out racism, perhaps you could show us where in this thread you condemned Cain for rolling out a plan that would put America in the business of systematically killing brown people on our southern border. Cause I missed it.
You do however, seem to be outraged about leaf blowers being banned in certain towns.
tea party priorities, I suppose.
The constitution says that we should all be treated equally. The constitution does not say that we should all have the same standard of living.
Why do progressives believe that the government should be able to violate the civil rights of whites if it benefits blacks? Where is that permitted in the law? When the progressives switch from saying that separate and unequal is wrong to separate and unequal is good public policy?
As someone who as lived in Texas, I can tell you that the requirement to be “fluent in Spanish” is code for only Hispanics need apply. There is no requirement that the people claiming to be “fluent in Spanish” actually be able to read or write, Spanish the requirement quickly become a need for someone to speak Spanglish. That is why hospitals have to be careful to not let the “Spanish speaking” employees translate for patients since most of the “Spanish speakers” ability to speak Spanish is poor and many of them only know vulgar names to describe anatomy and physiology.
That is the trick in the job application. When a job announcement says bilingual, the person will only be tested, checked, verified on Spanish. There is no standard of the person’s ability to funciton in English. In addition, being bilingual means the ability to speak Spanglish. There is never a requirement to read or write spanish. Since very few Spanish only speakers can read or write Spanish, the requirement for being bilingual means that only Hispanics should apply.
There is also the old joke that the quickest say for a white person to keep Hispanics from speaking Spanish around them it to let them know that you can speak Spanish. Since the Spanish can no longer talk behind your back or insult you to your back, they immediately stop speak Spanish. In addition, most of them have such limited Spanish skills, that they are usually ashamed of how bad their Spanish speaking skills are.
@superdestroyer: Can you explain this paranoia of Spanish? Seriously, let’s say that several generations from now some of the southern border states are officially bilingual. So what?
That’s rather amusing coming from jan, of all people…
A state that is bilingual will be a state where few if any whites live. Look at the cities and counties in Texas that are headed to being 100% Hispanic. Many of them used to have large number of whites but as the Hispanic population grew, whites moved out starting with the college educated whites and with the blue collar and poor white to follow. Just like whites moved away from blacks in Baltimore, Newark, Detroit, DC, St Louis, etc, whites have been moving out of the majority Hispanic cities in Texas.
Think of all of the 60 y/o whites who attended a majority white high school 40 years ago that is now virtually 100% non-white. Those whites know what happens to cities that go from being majority white to majority non-white.
What is most amazing is how the left absolutely refuses to think about the impact of changing demographics will affect the U.S. in the future. Can a country that is majority Hispanic compete in the world marketplace. Will uncontrolled immigration continue until the quality of life in the U.S. equals the quality of life in Mexico.
Where was the outrage? Again, you just make it up as you go along.
There’s little rhyme or reason for some of your comments anjin, and also Interested party, except to act as some kind of droll agitators to those having different political stances from yourselves.
You know, now that I think about it, why do we even let people that speak Spanish attend our public universities? They might take the place of some nice white students.
That was sarcasm in case anyone didn’t realize it, and I’d like to thank superdestroyer for taking the ******* of the thread award.
Being passed over as a Walmart Greeter must really suck. I’m sure Doug feels you pain.
Also Jan, I noticed you failed to take super to task for what are honest-to-goodness racist remarks, along with giving Cain a pass on his “Let’s Kill Us Some Mexicans” plan.
Well, you have made a couple of slips today, alone, dropping the mask a bit. Afraid what is under it is not very attractive. I will let you get back to tracking important things like tracking leaf blower bans now.
By the way, its good to learn Spanish. Once you learn proper Spanish is not so difficult to learn French, italian and specially Portuguese.
@superdestroyer: Well considering the major tests of English comprehension includes the original ad and every step up to and including getting hired… I’m pretty sure you have to know a decent level of english (especially if you’re using monster)..
Oh noes! The pure snow-driven lily whiteness of mine holy forefathers might be tainted by the unclean races! The Spanish Menace is so great we might have to form (temporary) alliances with the Ching Chongs, the Ginger Pope-Kissers, and the foul Jews and their damned usury! Only then can our pure Anglo-Saxon-Norman-Germanic-Scandinavian-Italian-Scottish-Native American inbred racist dog-heritage be preserved! The South shall rise again!
Also, what about the purity of the Most Holy English language? We must set it in stone so it changes not through the ravages of time, less it become corrupted with foul colloquial terms such as hombre and salsa! No child shall learn Spanish! Die, Dora the Explorer, die!!
Are progressives so driven to be seen as the “Cool kids” that they believe that snark is all that is required.
I guess when there is almost no majority Hispanic towns that whites are willing to move to, it become very hard to argue facts concerning immigration. All of the OWS white hipsters living in Manhattan are living there because they want to live in a city with a growing white population do not support the progressive position. All of the upper middle class hipster wanting to only attend schools that are 80% or more white does not support the progressive position. That fewer white Americans want to work in health care, science, or engineering because those fields have become heavily immigrant does not support the progressives position.
What progressives see uncontrolled immigration as a means to cheaper take-out and the destruction of the boring white middle class suburbs tell everyone what the progressive really believe.
@André Kenji de Sousa:
What percentage of people over the age of 12 can every learn a new language. If learning another language is so easy, then why are there so few Hispanic students taking French in high school?
Also, African-Americans are the least likely to speak a second language and most likely to be hurt by unlimited immigration. So why do progressive support a policy that will lower the quality of life for so many blacks?
This guy never, ever disappoints, does he?
It’s always fun to see a racist be proud & loud. Much better than pretending. I, for one, applaud Superdestroyer’s policy of always opening his mouth and letting us all know what a racist tool he is. Bravo, sir!
Thanks for the link. I typically don’t read Huff Post.
I largely consider the Koch Bro = George Soros — in that both are examples of very politically active (in terms of direct sponsorship) rich business folks.
But in general, I just read this as Herman Cain forwarding his own career — not necessarily his candidacy. In recent years, beyond his talk show, Cain made his name on the lecture circuit (like a lot of higher profile retired CEOs). And that self promotion leads to more speaking opportunities, more book sales, and other possibilities (FoxNews show?).
I don’t think he wants to be president. Or if he does he imagines the position far differently (and seemingly closer to Mrs. Palin) than we traditionally think of it.
What I’m most curious about is whether or not, with all the talk about Citizen United etc, if Cain can sustain a high poll position based largely on low campaign funds and a high degree of press.
Again, I realize that the 9/9/9 and policy stuff he’s touting is inane and not thought through. But has he do anything to alientate an activist base who is looking for anyone but Romney (as long as that person can hit all of the talking points). And in this respect his lack of (political) record and the Koch associations can only be a good thing.
BTW, I agree that the entire “house negro thing” was a step too far too — at least for this particular case.
The GOP & Fox News are hard at work, year after year, to disenfranchise blacks in America. What do you call it?
Cut to yet another “voter fraud” story on Fox, complete with video of a polling station full of black people. Or maybe it’s time to discuss “Black Panthers”.
“What percentage of people over the age of 12 can every learn a new language.”
If we assume “every” means “even,” the answer is “most of them.” It begins with, you know, wanting to. If you want to place limits on yourself, that’s your problem.
All superdetroyer wants to do is complain bitterly about things he cannot control. Change is not just coming, it’s here. Today. I’m 46 and I learned Spanish in my 40s. What I have discovered is Spanish speaking people do not sit around and denigrate white people in Spanish. I have yet to hear it, and I use public transportation in Los Angeles a lot.
I do hear superdestroyer, jan, and others here, obviously white, sitting around and denigrating Spanish speakers in English. You folks are a disgrace, and your whining ways are over. The audience for your evil condemnations is shrinking by the hour.
@mattb: Steve Kornacki has done a good job of explaining why most pundits don’t consider Cain a serious candidate, despite his currently high poll numbers. Polling for primaries is notoriously fluid, and there’s a long history of seemingly unlikely candidates experiencing surges that quickly evaporate. It happened just this year with Trump, and while Cain looks like a marginally more plausible contender, there’s a lot that makes his chances seem low (though Kornacki admits some level of uncertainty).
In any case, one of the reasons I’ve long believed Romney is the most likely nominee is because the anyone-but-Romney faction was never likely to unite behind a single candidate. There’s no doubt Romney has serious vulnerabilities, and even I’ve been surprised at the ineptitude of his rivals at exploiting those vulnerabilities so far. But if Romney doesn’t win, Perry seems like the only likely alternative at this point. Yes, he’s made many mistakes, but it really comes down to which candidate, of the ones running more than vanity campaigns, the voters are more comfortable holding their noses while supporting.
>What I have discovered is Spanish speaking people do not sit around and denigrate white people in Spanish.
And, I should add, “Spanish speaking people” and “white people” are not mutually exclusive categories.
@Kylopod: I live in a neighborhood with a lot of Orthodox Jews and the rabbi across the street from me speaks fluent Spanish. So do many of his friends, and his children. I don’t think he learned it as a kid, since he’s in his 60s and was born in Israel, coming to LA only in 1991.
The convulsions over language are from people who are already terrified and cannot be consoled. Rosetta Stone can teach anyone anything.
You have to, you know, want to learn.
I have no doubt that Cain isn’t a serious nominee and will not be the nominee.
And I do expect Romney to get the nod. And personally, I think that’s best for the country (though not necessarily Obama), in that he’s the only candidate on the GOP side that’s qualified and done the work to be President.
Ok, so all that aside, as a spectator I’m very interested in how the “anyone-but-Romney” plays out for the Republicans in this post Tea-Party environment. Hosea 8:7 continues to move through the back of my head: “For they sow the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind.” The Republicans have attempted to co-opt the Tea Party and Conservative Media for quite a while, telling them how important they are. This may be the moment that comes back to bite them.
The interests of Conservative talk/blog media — i.e. what’s best for the show/hosts — has seemingly detached itself from Republican interests on this issue (starting in 2006 with Limbaugh’s famed “I’m done carrying water for Republicans”). I’ve yet to hear a host who supports Romney. In most cases he’s discussed as the “establishment candidate” and “not a true conservative.”
We know that in recent special elections, the “establishment” republican candidates have had a lot of problems getting the conservative activist/tea party base behind them. And there is a huge cross over between talk radio/blogs and those folks.
Given how the primaries are moving earlier and earlier and the connection between the base and media, this could (and I stress could) set up some really big problems for the overall Republican election effort. In particular, I personally think Florida is truly the state to watch, because of the issue of will it’s delegates get seated. If Romney wins there and they seat the delegates, I don’t see how that doesn’t demoralize the base (i.e. the establishment is sticking it to us again). If one of the “not-Romney’s” win, then that mobilizes these activists to try to stick it to the establishment and show that they’re the real power. Either way, it doesn’t bode well for a united party.
Anyway, back to Cain, his “special sauce” is that it seems to me he could actually unite most of the “not Romney” because he has exactly the mix of what that base is looking for and hasn’t made any of Perry’s mistakes.
[Aside: the “magic” of Obama is — Hillary supporters aside — he managed to be both the activist and the insider choice by midway through the primaries. I don’t see Romney being able to pull that off.]
Look, I’ll have no argument with the idea that the Republican party has backed a lot of positions that have helped institutionalize racism and/or discrimination. I think that record speaks for itself.
That said, I think that progressives/liberals are way too comfortable with throwing around “Uncle Tom’s” and “House Negros” for shock value. And it ends up shutting down conversation about race and racism more than opening it up. Especially since it also suggests that you can’t be Black or Gay (or you name it) and be a conservative/republican without being naive/stupid/opportunistic.
And that type of stereotyping is something I fundamentally reject. In fact, in our adversarial political system, one could argue that a Black Republican (or Openly Gay Republican) represents the most hopeful type of political actor as they are attempting to change the party from inside.
@mattb: “That said, I think that progressives/liberals are way too comfortable with throwing around “Uncle Tom’s” and “House Negros” for shock value. ”
A civil society would utter every single racial epithet used in the film Blazing Saddles, and not bat an eye. Imagine if we had a Blazing Saddles cable channel, with all the out takes and directors cuts? Who would be bothered by those words once they are saturated? Can you even IMAGINE a film like this being able to be made today? We’ve grown intolerantly tolerant.
Because it all boils down to “we’ll take the _blanks_ and the _blanks_, but not the _blanks_.”
Many words hurt because they are enabled by the speakers, e.g. “shock value.” It requires ignoring it for the adolescent barb it is, and getting on to the actual argument.
>I live in a neighborhood with a lot of Orthodox Jews and the rabbi across the street from me speaks fluent Spanish.
I am an Orthodox Jew who recently moved into a largely Spanish-speaking (Dominican) neighborhood. I know very little Spanish myself (the translator app on my i-phone has come in handy on several occasions), though just in the past few weeks I met a group of Jews whose native tongue is Spanish. (Not that all Jews are white–that’s another misconception.) When I worked for the census, we refused to accept “Hispanic” or “Latino” as an answer on racial self-identification. But the media typically treats it as a racial category, distinct from both white and African American.
>In fact, in our adversarial political system, one could argue that a Black Republican (or Openly Gay Republican) represents the most hopeful type of political actor as they are attempting to change the party from inside.
While I agree that we should stay away from terms like “House Negro,” I don’t think Cain is a good example of a hopeful actor changing the GOP from the inside. He has engaged in racial demagoguery worthy of Rush Limbaugh, referring to himself as a “real black man,” suggesting the president’s blackness is inauthentic, describing most African Americans as “brainwashed” and likening them to slaves. Indeed, he’s probably the most openly bigoted candidate in this race, trumping any of the white guys and gals. There are black Republicans who comport themselves with dignity when it comes to race issues (Colin Powell and Condi Rice come immediately to mind), but there are far too many like Cain whose role is essentially to tell conservative white racists what they want to hear while providing them with cover against charges of racism (i.e. I can’t be racist because I support Cain).
Yeah… that was in the back of my head as I was writing the above. I think Cain is an opportunist and a scrapper. And in that way he’s far harder to defend then someone like Powell or even Rice.
That said, I think what feel’s offensive to some of us about Cain (or perhaps fake might be a better word) is how calculating he appears — that not only is he doing it but he’s winking at the audience the entire time. But I also find myself asking is that a fair critique? For example, it’s pretty clear that Obama uses — albeit more subtly — a lot of the same fundamental performance tools… but for some reason that gets a pass.
On the flip side, do Powell and Rice get our support for consistently not “blacking” it up?
I don’t know the answer and this is a lot of stuff I’m trying to make my way through right now…
@James in LA:
James, while I appreciate this dream, some 5,000+ years of human history tell me that it will always remain a dream (in much the same way that SD’s idea of keeping language pure is also a dream).
I’m not a fan or supporter of political correctness. But at the same time, as someone who does work in sociolinguistics, I think the dream of a completely offensive (or inoffensive) language is a naive fantasy. And in general I don’t like the idea of one side getting permission to use certain phrases without thinking through their implications.
All that said, I totally understand Anjin’s move. It’s just one I personally cannot condone.
@Kylopod: ” When I worked for the census, we refused to accept “Hispanic” or “Latino” as an answer on racial self-identification. But the media typically treats it as a racial category, distinct from both white and African American.”
I look at my rabbi across the street and unless wearing black cloths, donning a fedora, and sporting a truly audacious white beard is a “race,” I could not tell you what race or mix of races he is. Having been born in Israel, regrettably, is no better milepost. What I do know is I laugh my ass off every time we converse, his children are both respectful and knowledgeable, and this has our focus.
@mattb: “And in general I don’t like the idea of one side getting permission to use certain phrases without thinking through their implications.”
What, after due consideration of any implications, the speaker still does not agree these implications amount to anything that is not manufactured during the controlled mental state known as “being offended?” What if the intent, as in Blazing Saddles, is to make a mockery of such self-righteousness in an effort to bring it back down to earth? This arises on all “sides,” by the Bye, not on just one.
The PC movement fails when it tells people how they must speak so you will not “be offended” by what you hear. Well, at least I’ll sleep better knowing there are fewer potty-mouths. Or something. I don’t quite get the logic of your average busy-body. Sounds of words, like marijuana, occur freely in nature, and outlawing either is a waste of time.
I think it’s far better to keep knocking out the underpinnings of these arguments, and the let the words fall where they may. The list of things that were Unspoken And Must Not Ever Be Said Or Though About At Length when I was young has shrunk dramatically, and this I applaud. Viva, Information!
ps. I am related by blood to Obama supporters who said in 2008 to doorstep pollers, “yeah we’ll vote for that n****” before slamming the door in their faces. No demographic sampling I’ve seen accounts for them…
@James in LA: I’m pretty certain that if someone who saw me on the street was asked to describe my race, they’d call me a Caucasian or white guy without blinking. That’s part of my reason for identifying as one on census forms and the like. I’ve known Ashkenazic Jews who refuse to identify as white, but I’m content to let society decide, at least for the time being.
There’s a book called How Jews Became White Folks. I haven’t read it, but my understanding is that it’s about the shifting racial status of Jews in American society (as opposed to their biological standing, which presumably hasn’t changed much in the last few centuries). Certainly, the U.S. has a history of excluding not just Jews, but several European groups, from the “white” or “Caucasian” category. An immigration reformer in the early 20th century classed all the following groups as non-Caucasian: “Tartars, Finns, Hungarians, Jews, Turks, Syrians, Persians, Hindus, Mexicans, Zulus, Hottentots [and] Kafirs.”
Part of what makes Jews a complicated case is that Jewishness isn’t really a racial category; it’s an ethnic and religious one. There are Jews whom no one would class as white, not just converts but even entire communities from places like Ethiopia, India, and China. When scholars suggest that American Jews have “become white,” they’re referring to the predominantly Ashkenazic communities in the United States. Sometimes there’s a perception that Ashkenazic Jews are white but Sephardic Jews are nonwhite–a strange conclusion considering how similar the two groups look physically and how closely related they are genetically. One example of this mindset comes from a NYT article from some years ago about the debate over Columbus’s origin. When the article reached the hypothesis that Columbus was Jewish, it made the following bizarre remark: “Most Jews in Southern Europe at the time were Sephardic Jews of North African descent, but preliminary analysis of Columbus’s DNA suggests he was Caucasian.”
There’s also the question of how you classify Middle Eastern peoples in general. Like Latinos, Arabs and Arab-Americans are frequently treated in the media as nonwhite. Also like Latinos, that’s not how the U.S. census sees it: Middle Eastern descent counts as white or Caucasian. It’s a mark of how confusing today’s racial classifications are that according to some standards, Jews are white while Arabs are nonwhite.
@Kylopod: We’ll take the Tartars and the Finns, but not the Hottentots.
Thank you for that. It just illustrates how blurry the lines are, and attachment to any one of them seems to be dwindling as the human genes of the planet continue to mix. My conservative friends stumbled all over themselves trying to classify Obama, and it failed, and now those 18″ guns won’t be of any use in 2012, or after. The mixing is what defies classification; hard to get Us v. Them out of We.
The deliberate exclusion of non-whites is going to backfire badly on whomever continues to do it. Ancestors who cannot be touched and only remembered are one thing. But to keep going on like star destroyer et al invites Serious Future Trouble, and With Dividends. I do not like these rules, but here we are.
Back to my rabbi…he’s not really mine, I am not Jewish…but he does not expose enough skin to classify. Hazel eyes don’t help matters. If you saw him, you’d say his race is clearly Santa, were the Great Klaus to wear black and live in a desert.
@James in LA:
To be clear, I’m not advocating censorship — ultimately because I know it can never be successful.
My issue has more to do with trying to hold people (including myself) accountable for the language that you use. In truth, anyone is “free” to say anything — including “Fire” in a crowded theatre — but none of us are/should be free from the ramifications of speaking.
Calling Cain a “houseboy” or anything else is, in my mind, simply a cheap move. Saying that the only reason he is in his position is because of his color or because the Koch’s/Fox News wanted their own “magic negro” is just too easy.
And to Kylopod’s point it also doesn’t necessarily help a real discussion about Cain’s own use of race.
@mattb: “And to Kylopod’s point it also doesn’t necessarily help a real discussion about Cain’s own use of race.:
Because, for me, race is so far down the list of considerations, Cain’s other views soak up all the oxygen. Ergo, my views on Cain’s use of race can be summarized as, “Nope. Who’s next?”
So long as we never elevate name-calling to “Fire!” in a crowded hall, I’m content. You can always control your reaction to name-calling. Fire? Not so much, mostly due to the ensuing stampede.
Herman Cain “Jokes” About Killing Immigrants!
Hopeful…maybe, but how about realistic? Particularly concerning gay issues, how could any Openly Gay Republican possibly hope to make any real changes within the GOP…
@An Interested Party:
Actually, I’d take the opposite track. The moment is imminent — depending on how the chips fall in 2012 — when openly Gay Republicans may have the ability to truly change the party.
I suspect that if the Republican’s lose 2012 then things will really change within the party — if for no other reason than the hardline conservatives will choose to fork off (because they cannot embrace Romney) or will be forked off (for having not come out in support of the last two presidential candidates) in order to embrace a younger demographic. If the Republican’s win 2012, this may get delayed for a little bit longer.
And, giving credit where credit is due, Gay Republicans (GOProud and Log Cabins) have already done yoeman’s work on helping finish DADT.
I’ll stick with my binary logic argument: is Cain’s proposal better or worse than Obama’s?
Obama’s illegal immigration policy seems to boil down to:
1) Discourage illegal immigration by wrecking the US economy, drying up the jobs.
2) Discourage illegal immigration by compelling US companies to export jobs (like Gibson Guitars and Boeing), further drying up the appeal.
3) Supply more and better weapons to the Mexican drug cartels so they can kill more Mexicans, reducing the number of Mexicans alive to try to enter the US illegally.
Against that standard, Cain’s would be an improvement.
Jay thinks killing brown people is a plan. Why am I not surprised?
dat is not a thing to joke its serious and i thought he is christian and everyone has rights it even says on the constitution
Well, I am only responsible for what I say. “House negro” is a watered down version of the expression my black friends use for a black person who has sold out to bigots for personal gain. I picked it up in the 60’s, and it is still in pretty common use today.
The GOP has been searching for a “person of color” to use as a counterbalance to Obama for some time. The first choice was Bobby Jindal, but he crashed & burned right out of the gate. So now we have Cain.
I think Cain’s success in the business world was probably merit based, though I don’t know enough about his career to comment on it incisively. I don’t think he is serious about running for President, he strikes me as just another highly successful businessman with an outsized ego looking for new worlds to conquer. He can leverage the celebrity he has attained into a place on the talking head/rubber chicken circuit and write a few books – he will make a lot of money. It beats selling pizza.
I think it’s clear that in the political arena, he is a tool. A tool for people who make keeping people of color down a cornerstone of their agenda. I doubt he cares – I don’t think he identifies with blacks who do not have professional careers/incomes. Based on his own statements, he is a hardcore bigot (Muslims), and is filled with self-loathing for his own race. Either that or he is playing at being a bigot because it is what his backers want to hear, and he knows it will earn him points with the GOP base.
It’s pretty revolting either way.
@anjin-san: Jay thinks killing brown people is a plan. Why am I not surprised?
No, you idiot, as I noted, Obama’s administration, via Fast and Furious, has already killed a couple hundred (at least) brown people and says it was no big deal. I’ve suggested — repeatedly — that we turn the responsible parties over to Mexico to face justice.
Don’t follow WR’s example and just be mindlessly stupid.
@Jay Tea: Simple rule of thumb…conservative commenters bring up Obama “scandal” and 9 times out of 10 it’s nothing. The other 1 time it is something, but dates back to the Bush Administration and the GOP. I’ll leave it to the readers to figure out which this is.
Am I even supposed to take the fake Gibson/Boeing scandals seriously enough to rebut?
@David M: I’m not going to immediately rebut your point — I’m saving it for reserve — but point out that the Obama defenders and I both use the same aphorism: “never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.” I look at the long, long list of screwups and say “nobody is that stupid.”
And your “blame Bush” ploy? Please. In the “idiot” Bush administration, there were tracking devices implanted in the guns and all were recovered before they got to the Mexican border. Under the “intelligent” Obama administration, they made sure they made it across the Mexican border with NO way to track them. And it wasn’t a screwup; the actual plan called for helping them get across the border, and not following them after they crossed the border.
Finally… both Boeing and Gibson were told that their legal problems would go away if they got rid of their plans to use American workers and sent their work overseas. Coincidence?
@David M: Oh, and David? It’s hardly a defense of Obama to constantly say “but Bush did something similar” when Obama takes what Bush did and cranks the stupid part up to 11. For another example: “it’s just plain awful to waterboard the three worst Al Qaeda terrorists, as it’s a violation of their Constitutional and legal rights. But it’s just fine and dandy to deliberately target and assassinate American citizens who’ve never been convicted of a single crime.”
@Jay Tea: You’re the one that brought up the Fast and Furious like it means something about the current administration. My point is it’s much more likely it’s just the ATF doing something stupid and isn’t of any real significance, except to the right wing searching for the latest pretend scandal.
Isn’t the Boeing scandal supposed to be about favoring unions rather than sending workers overseas? And the Gibson disagreement about a Bush era regulation as some nefarious Obama administration plot to ship jobs out of the country hardly makes sense.
Jay… perhaps you can direct us to some of the posts you wrote with similar hysterics about the 190,000 AK-47 assault rifles and pistols that Bush lost in Iraq. Apparently more than a few of them were later used against our troops in combat.
Or the 17 billion in cash from the US treasury that the Bush admin lost in Iraq.
Has the Obama administration screwed the pooch a few times? Sure. Show me an administration that has not. But the worst day Obama has had would be considered a win by Bush’s standards.
Dunno. Is it a coincidence that you document none of your claims? I am sure you fanboys at Wizbang lap that cheese up, but we are not on Wizbang, are we?
Really? Can you prove that?
From the LA Times:
Ok, an unconfirmed, unsourced claim. The rest of what I have seen is noise on right wing rant sites and grandstanding by Issa. I think we all remember right wing hysteria about “the headless bodies of Americans” buried in the Arizona desert.
At any rate, it is interesting how quickly you become a concern troll for Mexicans when you feel there might be a political advantage in it.
I almost hate to derail the conversation back to the thread topic, but according to Cain the fence is back on again.
@David M: Isn’t the Boeing scandal supposed to be about favoring unions rather than sending workers overseas? And the Gibson disagreement about a Bush era regulation as some nefarious Obama administration plot to ship jobs out of the country hardly makes sense.
Boeing was told that they could expand in their home, union state or overseas without the Obama administration’s opposition — it was only expanding in a non-union state that was the issue. So you can argue about US union workers and Chinese workers and who ranks first and who ranks second, but it’s clear that non-union workers ranked third. And the funny thing about Gibson — their major competitor, Martin, uses the exact same wood in the exact same way, but has yet to be hassled. I’m certain it’s just a wild coincidence that Gibson’s CEO is a big Republican donor and Gibson is a non-union shop, while Martin’s CEO is a big Democratic donor and uses union labor.
But back to the topic at hand — Cain’s Mexico policy STILL makes more sense than what Obama’s doing. And that is definitely damning with faint praise.
@anjin-san: Fine, I’ll accept that number as valid for now. So, you’re OK with the Obama administration actively helping in the murder of at least 150 Mexicans and one US border patrol agent. OK. What’s your threshold for not covering for them? As long as Obama doesn’t kill as many people as, say, died in Iraq, you’ll give him a pass?
That’s one of the many differences between us, anjin. You’re focused on scoring points on me, and don’t care about the bigger picture. You’re nowhere near that important to me.
@James in LA:
Considering that many illegal immigrants never learn English and never speak a word of English in private, why should non-Hispanic whites have to learn English to continue to live in Texas or Chinese to live in northern California.
If the illegal immigrations choose to come to the U.S. and then refuse to learn the language, why should whites have to learn Spanish to accommodate them. It is amazing that progressives define a “sane” immigration as one that requires whites to learn Spanish, Chinese, Korean, and Tagalog.
Like I said, an unconfirmed, unsourced claim. But it makes Obama look bad, so naturally you
Yea, you are a big picture guy all right.
Jay, there is one reason, and one reason only that I even acknowledge the existence of people like you, bithead and Jan. I have seen what happened to our country when the lies of the right went unchallenged. If you want to tell yourself that you are somehow important to me, have at it. I realize you ego desperately needs the boost, and listening to your drivel, I can understand why.
Oh, and I noticed none of your recent posts have any supporting evidence. Now there is a shock.
@anjin-san: Well, ain’t you just the big white knight, defending The Troooth from evil ol’ me?
Mexico’s Attorney General, Marisela Morales, says that Fast and Furious has claimed the lives of at least 200 Mexicans. You wanna take it up with her?
And of the roughly 2,000 guns that the ATF either let get into Mexico or actively helped get into Mexico, only 700 have been recovered — which means that 2/3 of them (roughly) are still in the hands of the Mexican cartels. 1,300 military-grade guns in the hands of a group out to destroy the government of Mexico, thanks to the Obama administration.
And before you bring up “but Bush did it, too!”, not a single one of those guns in the Bush-era program made it across the border.
As I’ve been saying for some time, we’ve gone way, way past the point of “never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity,” ‘cuz ain’t nobody that stupid. And I don’t care about the motives, either — let them explain to to a judge and jury, either here or in Mexico.
And while we’re discussing each other’s personal failings, you’re also getting damned close to going past Hanson’s Razor, quoted above — I don’t think you are anywhere near stupid enough to actually believe the cover stories (which now involve Obama saying that Holder started an investigation into F&F two weeks before Holder admits he knew about it) being spun. So, then, just what is your investment in keeping the lid on this whole mess?
I understand that you are pretty desperate to change the subject. Cain’s bizarre rant about an electric fence and killing Mexicans is pretty disturbing, and the right is running out of bodies to trot out as the conservative savior du jour.
Rant on dude. I seriously doubt you have anything better to do, and I have to head to SF for a meeting.
BTW, it’s worth noting that you whole case here is based on an obviously partisan congressional committee’s unsubstianted charges. The NYT article you linked to explicety states that there is no direct evidence to back Issa up.
@anjin-san: Apparently you missed the quote from the Attorney General of Mexico. And go ahead and smear Issa — the New York Times tried recently, to keep people from paying attention to Fast and Furious and it was an Epic Fail.
But again, after you dismiss all the sources that you disagree with, you still have plenty: the death of Agent Brian Terry, Holder’s constantly-evolving story, the fact that the only official yet disciplined over it was the whistle-blower, who was fired, and the fact that NO ONE has presented a plausible explanation for what the idea was.
Again, back to the topic: Cain’s idea of strictly enforcing our border security — say, along the lines of how Mexico enforces their southern border — might be worth exploring.
LOL…. Jay YOU CITED NYT to support your claims. Now, two posts later they are an unrealibe source engaging in a cover up and smearing Issa.
Let us know when you decide who ate your homework. Was it the dog, the cat, or the parrot?
@anjin-san: Just trying to head off the “you can’t trust that source” argument, so I went with one I figured you’d accept. You want more sources, or you wanna actually address the matter? or should we just assume that not even that one-third has been recovered? That does NOT help your case that it was a good idea gone wrong, and not a horrifically bad idea that went off exactly as anyone could have predicted.
Where did I say this? Be specific.
Oh Lord. So it was the fish who ate your homework then.
@anjin-san: So, you have no position on the issue? Apart from contradicting me?
Then why am I wasting my time discussing this with you?
Guess you were just making stuff up. What a shocker…
Where exactly is that quote? I read a number of quotes from her, but none contained a body count.