Poll: GOP Bears Biggest Political Risk In Shutdown
The GOP seems perfectly fine with risking a shutdown, even though polling shows they'd pay the biggest price for it.
A new CNN/ORC poll shows that Republicans would seem to be bearing the biggest political risk if, as expected, the government shuts down in less 24 hours:
If the federal government shuts down starting Tuesday because of a bitter partisan battle over the new health care law, more people say congressional Republicans rather than President Barack Obama would be responsible, according to a new national survey.
A CNN/ORC International poll released Monday morning, hours before funding for the government is scheduled to run out, also indicates that most Americans think Republicans in Congress are acting like spoiled children in this fiscal fight, with the public divided on whether the president is acting like a spoiled child or a responsible adult.
And six in 10 questioned in the survey say they want Congress to approve a budget agreement to avoid a government shutdown, and if it happens, most people say a shutdown would be a bad thing for the country.
The poll’s release comes one day after the GOP-dominated House of Representatives approved a spending plan to fund the government that would delay the Affordable Care Act, better known as Obamacare, for a year, and repeal its tax on medical devices.
According to the poll, which was conducted Friday through Sunday, 46% say they would blame congressional Republicans for a government shutdown, with 36% saying the president would be more responsible and 13% pointing fingers at both the GOP in Congress and Obama.
“The number who would hold congressional Republicans responsible has gone down by 5 points since early September, and the number who would blame Obama is up 3 points in that same time,” said CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. “Those changes came among most demographic groups.”
The CNN poll is similar to a CBS News/New York Times survey released late last week that indicated 44% blaming congressional Republicans and 35% pointing fingers at the president. Two other polls conducted in the past week and a half, from Pew Research Center and United Technologies/National Journal, showed a much closer margin but their questions mentioned Republicans in general rather than the GOP in Congress.
In a separate question, 49% of all people in the poll say that Obama is acting like a responsible adult in this budget battle, with 47% describing him as a spoiled child. While that’s nothing to brag about, it’s better than Congress.
According to the poll, 58% say congressional Democrats are acting like spoiled children, with that number rising to 69% for the GOP in Congress. Only one in four say congressional Republicans are acting like responsible adults.
Some 68% say a shutdown for a few days would be a bad thing for the country, with that number rising to nearly eight in 10 for a shutdown lasting a few weeks.
Six in 10 questioned in the CNN survey say that it is more important for Congress to avoid a shutdown than to make major changes to the new health care law, with only a third saying it is more important for lawmakers to prevent major provisions in the new health care law from taking effect by cutting the funds needed to implement them.
The reality, of course, is that large segments of House GOP, and the Republican base, don’t really believe this. To listen to them, it’s clear that they believe that they primary fault will end up in the lap of Harry Reid, President Obama, and the Democrats, and that public opposition to the Affordable Care Act will be the key to GOP victory in this confrontation. While it’s true that the numbers above do indicate that Democrats would not be immune to public backlash from a shutdown, they also make clear that Republicans on the Hill seem to be the primary focus of the public ire at the moment. There’s really no reason to believe that this will change at any point in the future. Until Republicans realize this fact, and I believe that many of them already do, then we’re unlikely to see significant movement on the issue, which suggests that a shutdown would be something that lasts more than just a day or two.
In either case, if there’s going to be a last minute deal that fixes this issue, it’s going to have to happen in the coming hours. So far, there’s absolutely no sign of movement on either side, or even that the two sides are talking to each other. Given that, it seems like a shutdown at 12:01am is pretty much a certainty. What happens after that is anyone’s guess.
Possibly the most appropriate Freudian slip in blogging history.
You beat me to it! But oh so appropriate……
36% would blame Obama? That’s sad, Obama has been non-existent in this matter. In fact, I doubt most of those responding would even know if he’s in the country or on vacation. Do we even know his opinion on delaying implementation? He’s unilaterally delayed some implementation and we know the exchanges aren’t up and ready for tomorrow.
Obama is becoming George Bush; being blamed for stuff he’s had nothing to do with.
Given that public approval for the Tea Party is in the low 20s, the more the Republicans identify with Tea Party “principles”, the more they will be blamed. And rightly so.
When all else fails, bring “death panels” back to the Fox (etc.) news circuit.
Law was passed in 2010. Upheld by the Supreme Court. He was re-elected in 2012. Dems gained 8 house seats (even with gerrymandering) and 2 in the senate in 2012. Employer mandate is already delayed. So lets hold the gov and debt ceiling hostage because why?
Yes it is – its also the source of the current bullshit show we are subject to. If the objections to the law were based on rational and logical premises, then the path would have been different. None of this holding everything hostage, no whiny conmen taking up floor time for pointless theatrics, no stubborn last-stands and taking-you-with-me’s. What we are seeing is the end result of the whole OBAMA IS EVIL spiel that has been fed to people for over 5 years now. True believers can’t compromise because you can’t work with the devil. 36% of this country believe outrageous, easily disprovable lies simply because they “feel” that man is coming to get them since he’s “one of them” (fill in the “them”).
I am reminded of stories where it was SO important to protect the objective, they would destroy it rather then let the enemy have it. For Cruz and his ilk, they’d rather burn the USA to the ground then give an single inch.
Sucks to be us we’re all living in the path of the fire….
Ha! Yes I could wish I could say that was deliberate. Obviously I wasn’t awake yet
Well that’s just utter nonsense.
A bunch of tea-baggers are insisting on holding the Government hostage because they don’t like a law that was passed, was central to a Presidential Election they lost, survived an activist SCOTUS, and is now taking effect…this is nothing more than a childs tantrum. And the JKB’s of the world wonder why Obama hasn’t engaged in this nonsense? Give me a break. Why in the world would he?
Calling this a
gives it credibility it just does not deserve.
No way, no how, does the GOP come out of this looking good. Every time you think they have gone as low as they can go…they prove you wrong. This bunch has not hit bottom yet.
Because if the Republicans vote to give the Obama Adminstration and the Congressional Democrats what they want, they are admitting that they are irrelevant.
What is amazing is how Senator Reid is operating from the POV that the Repubilcans are irrelevant now and can be ignored because there is no way that the Republicans will be relevant in the future. The Democrats understand that there is no comeback for the Republicans so there is no reason to give them even a slight victory such as eliminating the tax on medical devices.
It is psycho to think a solvent government is just something Obama wants.
Though this is what drives them.
(It would be rational and adult to draft a Better healthcare bill, and pass that through the House and Senate. Repeal fails because only a small minority think repeal Is a better healthcare plan.)
The tax on Medical Devices is part of how the good stuff like Pre-Existing Conditions and No Lifetime Caps are paid for.
You can see how this game plays out…The Dems give the Tea Baggers this “slight victory”…then the law costs more than predicted…and the Tea Baggers then use that as another talking point against the law.
Silly Tea Baggers….they all want something for nothing. Oh yeah…we like the good stuff…like no pre-existing conditions and no lifetime caps…but they don’t want to pay for it thru mandated coverage or taxes on the poor medical devices industry.
@superdestroyer: there is no reason to give them even a slight victory such as eliminating the tax on medical devices.
I agree with the quote as I’ve somewhat deceptively cut it out of context. Have you been following the news reports of the tremendous disparity between the cost of these devices and the selling price? Markups in the 10000% area stink of price gouging. The least we can do is impose an excise tax on the windfall profits. Forget about a consolation prize.
Then there’s the lack of symmetry: This disaster from the house is an even worse offer than the first and as such sounds in bad faith. Boehner offered nothing…bupkis in exchange for his demands. It’s not serious. If it was serious he’d offer up a public option in exchange for that laundry list. But he offers zilch. It’s a fwck off bill.
@john personna: Universal healthcare is not a Republican goal though they will not admit it. Therefore, repeal is the only option.
“What the Democrats want” is simply for the US Government to continue operating. They’re not asking for anything further. The Republicans want the Democrats to concede on some issues, in exchange for what, exactly? What are the Republicans offering here? “If you give in on Obamacare, we’ll give you … uh … we’ll let you guys keep being a functioning legislature.” Really? That’s the deal?
Given that the Tea Party lawmakers’ letter about the Medical Device tax repeal was in fact written by a lobbying group, there is little uncertainty about where this sudden passion of theirs is coming from. It’s not from a concern for the American people.
Do the House Republicans realize they are fighting a political battle with two people, President Obama and Senator Reid, who are not facing another election? I’m sure Harry Reid would like nothing more than to destroy the Republican party on his way out the door and they are setting themselves up perfectly to allow him to do just that.
That’s totally unsuprising given that the Tea Party is really just a sham…organized and funded by the Koch Brothers and Dick Armey.
We should all know how this ends. There are 80-90 complete “wacho birds” in the house – suicide bombers if you will. They don’t negotiate they demand – they don’t listen they talk. So Boehner will have to ditch the “Hastert Rule” and get Democratic votes to save the economy. Will this result in Boehner losing his Speakership? Not necessarily-the Democrats can help him out here. The rules state that he has to receive 50% of the votes cast. If the Democrats all abstain he would only have to get half of the Republican votes – something I think he could do. Would that cost him his election in 2014? I don’t know anything about the demographics of his district but I would imagine that the Business Roundtable would be more than happy to pump lot’s of money into his campaign.
Really? Can you name the IRS official who told you that?
Wait, what do gay men and self-sacrificing hetero women have to do with this issue? Are the demographics really that fragmented that you can separate out people who identify with relatively obscure sex acts who oppose Obamacare?
Aww, you think this is about lame and lamer. That’s sweet.
File this under: “Except to Republicans, This is Obvious”
Also: ” 35% pointing fingers at the president.”
The 27% crazification factor = 8% crazificates to be, and that leaves about 10% of seemingly “normal” people in the Republican Party. Wow, 10% “normal” and 35% out-to-lunch.
@JKB: You’re mistaken. When Clavin says “silly Tea Baggers”, he’s not referring to the sex act. He’s making a three-year-old joke to the effect that if someone disagrees with your politics, then they’re gay.
@JKB: Wait, what do gay men and self-sacrificing hetero women have to do with this issue? Are the demographics really that fragmented that you can separate out people who identify with relatively obscure sex acts who oppose Obamacare?
You know, I’m getting real tired of this. Why can’t conservatives accept they should have done some research before picking a name? Honestly, you may have not known it personally but the internet is a glorious thing and answers a click away. Before they can use a name on TV, they have to research that no real life person has that name in that profession, least it be legally actionable. You have to check to see if someone’s using that really cool product name you came up with. There is a burden on someone to see if their message means what they really want it to mean without any miscommunication.
TEA Party nuts thought they were being clever and got tripped up by slang. They are pictures all over the ‘Net of old people wearing tea bags and Uncle Sam outfits before someone was smart enough to go “Wait, it means WHAT?!”
It happened. It embarrassed you. You made yourselves into an national sex joke by accident.
Let it go, man.
At this point, it just makes people look even stupider trying to defend what was mostly likely an honest mistake at the time but now has truly negative connotations on its own. And next time, DO YOUR DAMN RESEARCH FIRST.
I think the polls are that a majority want universal healthcare – something that does make “just repeal” out of touch.
Honestly Doug, I fail to see how the GOP pays a political price for this. They will most likely continue to hold the House (I’ve seen no polling that suggests otherwise) and they might pick up a few Senate seats, perhaps even gaining a narrow majority.
All polling, protestations and handwringing aside, the People appear to want this dysfunction. Republican appear to value their own dysfunction more than they value responsible governance. They’re certainly willing to keep on with it until the 2016 presidential election.
Tea Baggers…to which I provided this useful link.
They are just foolish people…and I can’t help it if you have a perverted mind.
As to the funding and organization of the silly people with tea bags dangling from their hats…everyone knows they are behind Americans for Prosperity, FreedomWorks, and Citizens for a Sound Economy, and others. The Tea Party would not exist if not for the Kochs and Dick Armey.
Not to mention, one of the earliest Tea Party protests was to send tea bags to Washington.
Now innocent that I was, I did not know the “late night” meaning until Jon Stewart shared it with me. My opinion then and now was that the Teas should have just refused that meaning. “Don’t be gross.”
It was an error and insecurity to yield “tea bag” to exclusively the sexual. I mean billions of real actual tea bags are sold to and used by Americans every year.
I think you confuse relevance with reality. I remember a push for gun control laws by dems after sandy hook,
, it was not going to happen. The same needs to be done here. Accept reality, pass a clean CR and raise the debt ceiling. the only thing that they may get is the medical device tax removal, which is fine, but anything beyond that? come on…
This – a thousand times this.
Framing this confrontation as a “negotiation” or seeking “compromise” or “movement” from both sides is utterly misplaced. The Democratic position is “keep the government running until you properly appropriate for it” and “pay the bills for that which you’ve already committed.” There is no middle ground when all you’re asking for is for both Houses of Congress to do their jobs.
It would be like me telling my boss that I’m not coming into work today unless he cuts back on my responsibilities, then expecting him to reassign one little project as a sign of his willingness to be reasonable.
@Jc: the only thing that they may get is the medical device tax removal, which is fine,
No reason or offset for the $29 billion giveaway to the price gougers. Atrocious policy is most definitely not fine.
Well, if that is true then by all means we should push the Obamacare implementation. For, anyone who has looked at Obamacare objectively knows, it ain’t universal healthcare. There are still big deductibles and significant co-pays, not to mention provider restrictions and treatment limitations. Oh, and it is estimated to only bring 40% of those without health insurance prior to its enactment into an insurance plan (down from the 60% estimate used while promoting passage of the bill).
No, Obamacare is force participation in a healthcare buying program so that the healthy and young subsidize the old and unhealthy. But not without significant out of pocket expenses for those who partake of the services.
@JKB: It’s a starting point.
@JKB: So, do you support the concept of universal healthcare or not? If so, what model would you support.
It is one thing to criticize ACA and its flaws but if you don’t accept its basic goals, then your criticisms are just gratuitous.
@john personna:It was an error and insecurity to yield “tea bag” to exclusively the sexual. I mean billions of real actual tea bags are sold to and used by Americans every year.
You are correct. They should have (and still should) refute anyone making a crude sex joke, just like any Democrat should call out “ass” jokes based on the chosen symbol. Rude is rude.
However, the original usage in thread wasn’t sexual. It was simply referring to them by a nickname. They are TEABaggers. That has become the accepted terminology for the group. Unfortunate but true and in no small part because it’s the name they called themselves way back when. Don’t get pissy when someone calls your name. It was chosen by the people in question before they knew what it meant. Still doesn’t mean they didn’t name themselves that. Not our fault they keep relating back to its origin. Like someone who wants to be Richard instead of Dick – understandable personal preference but doesn’t change anything if Dick is what’s on your birth certificate!
You know, the pink triangle was reclaimed. They can take back TEABagger too if they really wanted to – make it a point of pride instead of what they perceive as a slur. Thing is, they don’t want to try. They just want to be mad about it. Since that’s all they seem to do anyways, the name remains appropriate.
Point 1: ACA was passed by both Houses, signed by the Executive, upheld by SCOTUS.
Point 2: House Republicans claim they offer “compromise”, though their offer includes nothing they don’t want and everything they do want. “Capitulation” is the only reasonable term.
Point 3: Numbers coming in are generally better than expected – and remember, the point of the ACA was to address the gradual erosion of health care to working American families.
All of the above are true; none are considered relevant to the Beltway media.
However, after enduring “Morning Joe” and Odious Mark Halperin, my belief is that the Beltway press will attempt to portray this as one reasonable side v. the other reasonable side. He referred to the Beltway press as if he weren’t one of the queen bees within that clique.
So, I guess you would prefer a medicare for all, or even an NHS style plan (the only way to avoid those dastardly co-pays and deductables). If not, maybe you should shut your cakehole about those things and instead defend them along the lines of more intellectually honest opponents. At least they have the guts and honesty to say that these are a feature of our system to keep people more price sensitive. Take it from someone that has been there…you can be amazingly worried about cost when you are writhing in pain with no functionality in anything below your navel…that is until you are given “ghost eyes” by trauma neurosurgeons telling you that this will be permanant unless they cut you open RIGHT NOW. Especially after being blown off three days prior with the same symptoms by a different hospital; perhaps if it happened three weeks later, when I would have been covered by my employer’s plan, I would not have been drugged, scripted and released while still unable to walk.
The ACA may not be perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but it is the most achievable in our society since we long ago decided that “socialism” in any form, even if it works better and cheaper is unacceptable no matter what the long term cost and competitive disadvantages on the world stage.
Invoking Godwin’s Law here. The Republicans’ definition of “compromise” is the same as the German’s at the Munich Conference.
I guess they’re hoping that the President is Chamberlain.
So it is OK for there to be fewer medical devices just as long as the government gets some share. It is amazing how progressives will defend any tax, any government frees just as long as someone is hurt by the tax. Most Democrats would like to vote the tax away but cannot because no concession can be made to the Republicans.
I think there were a ton of gun laws passed after Sandy Hook. Remember how the state of New York was in such a rush to outlaw “large capacity magazines” that they did not read the lawful and did not think about how there were outlawing the use of large capacity magazines by the policy in their use of the Glock handgun?
What did not happen is a symbolic national law that would have little to no effect but would have allow the left to feel morally superior.
The compromise is that the Democrats have to have a larger budget deficit than the Republicans. To get that the Democrats should have to give something up such as was done during the sequester. If the Democrats do not want to borrow more money, they could propose an income tax high enough to cover the real operating costs of the federal government. However, the last thing the Democrats want to do is make most of their supporter pay full retail price for the government that they demand.
No shit, Sherlock. What do you think insurance is? Car insurance subsidizes bad drivers with good drivers. Health Insurance subsidizes the old and sick with the young and healthy.
Duh. It’s taken you exactly how many years to puzzle that one out????
One thing I almost never, ever, see mentioned…most of us spend far more on Insurance than we do on taxes (neglecting consumption taxes). The TEAbaggers are misguided…they should be screaming for reform of the insurance industry first. The we can talk about lowering already historically low taxes even more.
Munich is still in the future. Next up is Speaker Hindenburg’s reaction to the the flames licking at the Reichstag.
@superdestroyer: So it is OK for there to be fewer medical devices just as long as the government gets some share.
That doesn’t follow. There’ll be plenty of medical devices around even if the effective rate were more than the 1-2% projections. And excise taxes are a more productive use of windfall profits in these austere times.
Oh…and to get proper treatment for some complications, I had to exhaust my unemployment (while trying to stay with a job long enough to get coverage…six months required at my last employer), lose my independent living situation, move to a different state in with a disabled parent who i help take care of after my mother’s passing, and get a fourth infection that threatened my life before i got it treated and ensures a permanent deformity. It isn’t enough for some to have a formerly active person take the psychic hits of losing the ability to do some of the things that were mosr important to them, in my case 13 years of fencing and a love for my adopted hometown and walking around it…no…they need to hit rock bottom and feel that life is no longer worth living until they deserve enough care to let them become at least minimally productive again.
I swear…when I get back to car sales, any customer that starts in about the ACA, since conservatives can’t seem to keep politics out of any conversation in my experience, is going to get hosed and make me a huge comission…all while thinking I am their best friend at the dealership. Used to do it to the “government motors” jokers. Loved making damn near a grand off of them.
There is no compromise here. To say so is to admit you have no idea what is actually going on, and you’re just choosing up sides.
Congress has instructed Treasury to spend money…and they have instructed the Treasury to collect taxes. The taxes collected won’t cover the money spent. Obama is not asking Republicans for anything…so they have no business asking for anything…there is nothing to compromise on.
Congress just needs to pay their damn credit card bills.
As from the other points made, the fundamental ridiculousness of the TEA Party cannot be overstated.
These are people who, after two rounds of tax cuts (2001, 2003) under Bush & the GOP, suddenly showed up in 2009 claiming to be “Taxed Enough Already” even though federal income taxes were at the lowest levels in decades. The bit with the tea bags is minor in comparison to that absurdity.
Regarding the shutdown: I think that a solid majority will understand that the GOP is making it happen. I also think it will be less painful for the average American than some Dems think, ala the Sequester. Both things are bad policy, don’t get me wrong. But for a lot of folks, the response will be “meh.”
F*cking around with the Debt Ceiling again, however, is another matter.
You’ve got your facts wrong.
The Democrats do not have to have a larger budget deficit. The Senate Democrats have passed a budget that balances revenues and expenditures. This budget acknowledges the Democrats’ priorities and sets forth how they will be paid for.
The House Republicans have blocked the Senate Budget from going to conference.
The House Republicans, on the other hand, tried to follow the strictures of Paul Ryan’s budget when the Transportation and HUD spending bill was considered back in July, but once faced with the reality of what those fiscal constraints were, they couldn’t get even moderate Republicans to agree to the terms. The spending bill had to be pulled back. The record is crystal clear. It’s the Republicans who are unwilling to pay for the government they demand.
So, AGAIN, the Democrats don’t “have to give something up such as was done during the sequester.” Obama has agreed to negotiate via the proper Budget process as it should be. The rest of this crap is just extortion.
You mean – gasp – Obama intends to make people pay for their own health care? And here I was thinking he is some kind of commie.
@superdestroyer: How do you know that there will be fewer medical devices as opposed to simply less profit for the companies?
By the way, why shouldn’t we have taxation on medical devices if you want to balance the budget on this?
It seems to me the only thing you’ve been saying is “no, that won’t work, that won’t work, and that won’t work”. It’s NIMBYism to the utmost. Come up with your own plan that will fix the problem, or please keep quiet.
I’d like a better explanation of how the Democrats are getting anything out of the agreement to pass a CR. Exactly what changes are they asking for and getting out of these “negotiations” with the GOP?
Next time these Pee Tardiers are voted in I am going to demand a 1 year delay before they are sworn in and repeal their prescriptions for their Pecker Pumps!
The deficit is falling like a stone. Are there any Republicans that are aware of this?
Congress has not instructed the Treasury to spend money, at least not past midnight tonight. That is the whole point of the shut down. Legally, new spending cannot occur until Congress appropriates money to pay for it. Since the Democrats took over the Senate, Congress has passed one budget and as far as I know, no authorization bills. Government is running on auto-pilot with only the Constitutionally required appropriations governing it. And the latter has been in the form of continuing resolutions which generally say, same as last year + or – x%, instead of rational deliberated appropriations bills.
Now we are down to the wire with Obama and the Reid willing to shutdown the government rather than pass a continuing resolution based on Obama’s submitted budget request with Obamacare funding to be negotiated separately. Mainly because the Dems do not want to be openly associated with Obamacare with elections coming up in 13 months.
I mean, those who think Obamacare is going to pay for their healthcare expenses are going to get a big surprise and possibly rethink their “support”.
And Obama isn’t some kind of “commie”, he’s a socialist, which is far, far worse.
You never explained why you didn’t have insurance when you condition presented? A major medical/accident policy at the age you mentioned this happened to you would have been quite affordable. Such policies will be illegal under Obamacare and have been illegal in some states for sometime.
Were you in a state that had denied consumers the ability to purchase low cost insurance to protect their fiscal health in the event of a major physical health problem or accident?
And are you saying that you would not have considered the financial impact of your illness if faced with the annual $5000 deductible and considerable co-pays? And why are we to think you would have paid the Obamacare premiums if you didn’t purchase a major medical policy in the past when you can pay a small penalty instead?
@JKB:Now we are down to the wire
And why is that? Who’s the ones daring the shutdown? Who started this damn game of chicken in the first place?
You can’t push the blame off on this one. Republicans have been screaming for a shutdown for ages – actually audibly using the word even! People are not stupid (well, most of them aren’t). Even individuals prone to voting R are getting pissed that Republicans are trying to pull a fast one and punt the blame. Poll after poll show the R’s going down for this.
A budget is a budget is a budget. Trying to pull the funding out is a last desperation attempt to do what 40 wasted votes didn’t. A wise man would realize he’s bested and retreat for the next engagement. A Leeroy Jenkins just doubles down and jumps in, regardless of plan or consequences. Full speed ahead, damnit!
Funny thing about Leeroys and those who play chicken – eventually you end up getting hit by the truck (or fragged by your own team in self-defense). The truck’s coming. They have no one to blame but themselves for being out in the road.
@JKB: And Obama isn’t some kind of “commie”, he’s a socialist, which is far, far worse.
Ok….. wow. I have no words for this.
If there was ever an indictment of the education system, you just won the grand prize.
National numbers don’t matter to them, though they will protest them for appearance sake. The numbers in their gerrymandered home districts are all that matter. The 80 give or take that are pushing hardest on this are completely safe. When public opinion turns enough in enough currently Republican held districts is when we will see movement.
Democrats only tend to get about 30% of the vote in Boehner’s district. He is in much more danger of a primary challenge to his right than he is to a Democratic challenger. As long as that is true for him and a majority of Republican House members, then movement is not likely, regardless of national numbers.
You have long since proved that you don’t even know what socialism is.
The GOP put out a lot of disinformation about Obamacare being “free health care” – sadly, there are people, both Democrats and Republicans – who fell for it.
I do not know anybody who thinks that ACA will pay for their health care expenses – none.
Our’s is an insurance system wherein either you or your employer pays for insurance, it never has been free and never will be free. I don’t know why conservatives keep saying otherwise.
Still waiting to see if you will take me up on the bet you offered and I accepted. If you are so confident that you are right about the ACA and what public reaction will be when it is implemented you would accept it. Your studiously ignoring this tells me you don’t have confidence in your convictions.
Do be kind enough to prove this accusation, lest you be labeled as a right-wing nutbag that needn’t be taken seriously…
So let’s review.
– In the 2008 election, reforming healthcare is the key domestic plank of Democrats’ platform. Democrats win.
– In 2010, the PPACA is signed into law with no Republican support.
– Since its passage, Republicans try several legal challenges to the law and are defeated in the Supreme Court.
– Since its passage, House Republicans vote to repeal or defund the law 40+ times, failing to convince the Senate to follow.
– Healthcare is the central issue of the 2012 presidential and congressional elections. Republicans fail to win the White House or Senate, and lose seats in the house.
– After suffering defeat in the courts, at the ballot box, and failing to get the support needed in the legislature, the GOP is now threatening to shut down the government and default on the nation’s debt unless they get what they have failed to achieve through our nation’s normal processes.
I would call it the temper tantrum of a child, but a child can only stamp his feet. These assholes can do real, lasting damage to our economy, and they simply do not care about the consequences. They’re terrorists.
And Obama isn’t some kind of “commie”, he’s a socialist, which is far, far worse
I doubt anyone will out-dumb this one today.
@KM: This is reminiscent of when Rick Santorum launched the Conservatives Unite Moneyball (CUM) on his campaign website. Shortly after launching CUM on the internet, Rick started receiving CUM donations from all over the country. I assume he would also personally accept your CUM donation if you happened to come across him in person. The excitement caused by Rick launching CUM on the internet could best be described as “frothy”.
You Socialist scum better not touch my Medicare or Social Security and you better not hack into the NRA’s database of gun owners or I’m moving to Sweden.
Keep in mind all this drama is over a 6 week CR, not even a full year. There’s absolutely no reason to give the GOP anything here, other than the middle finger. They are still going to have crazy demands as soon as they start debating the entire FY budget.
More than that: it’s absolutely crucial that the GOP gets nothing here. This tactic cannot be allowed to work again. Obama screwed up in 2011.
C’mon…you’re selling him short. He is a Muslim Socialist, who is both incompetent and able to single-handedly destroy the nation, and has the ability to time-travel.
Thank you for proving that you have no idea what is going on.
My only question is: Why are your convictions so strongly held…when you don’t have a clue about the topic?
Don’t just listen to the left-leaning commentators here. Take it from Daniel Larison:
“It seems clear that Republicans in Congress will suffer more political damage from a shutdown, because more of them are seen as willing to accept the shutdown in an attempt to achieve a separate legislative goal. Some Republicans in Congress feel compelled to use such tactics because they do not have the power to repeal the ACA outright, and the reason they don’t have that power is that the public hasn’t been willing to trust them with unified control of the government since the debacles of the Bush era. Republicans won’t be returned to power as long as most Americans have the nagging sense that they will wreck things again once they have control, and this latest display does nothing to make that feeling go away.
What makes the party’s current position so absurd is that the attempt to use the threat of a shutdown to extract concessions on the ACA serves only to remind most Americans why they don’t want the party to control more of the government than it does. At best, the GOP is proving itself unready to govern, and that makes it considerably less likely that voters are going to trust the party with control of the Senate or the White House. That means many more years of picking fights that the party can’t win.” (emphasis added)
I’m a fan, but here’s the thing: The American Conservative is just another librul rag to the Twu Conservatives ™ out there.
And of course, it also doesn’t help when the Tea Partiers in Congress are saying things like:
“It’s exactly what we wanted, and we got it.” — Michelle Bachmann
“It’s wonderful,” said Rep. John Abney Culberson (R-Tex.), clapping his hands to emphasize the point. “We’re 100 percent united!”
If you want to be seen as being forced to do this, these are exactly the wrong things to say.
You make a statement but offer no explanation
Really, what’s going on?
I’m fairly certain that Obama worships Obama and only Obama, so Muslim is out, regardless of his sympathies.
A bunch of petulant children have a hard time accepting the law of the land…so they are throwing a tantrum.
Boehner could end this right now by bringing a clean bill to a vote…it would pass easily.
But he can’t because the childish-caucus demands their right to hold their breath and stomp their feet.
So he will bring the clean vote to the floor tomorrow, or the next day, or next week. We don’t know when…but we know he will.
That’s whats going on.
The problem is that all the stuff you are “fairly certain” of…is just plain wrong.
Indeed, let us not forget that the House Speaker could avoid a shutdown at any time by simply bringing the clean CR that the Senate passed up for a vote and getting 20 or so Republicans to vote for it (there are plenty whose districts will be hit hard by a shutdown). But they are terrorists who won’t release the hostages until their demands are met, and even if they are, they will keep the hostages and just do it all again in 6 weeks, and then 3 months after that, and then twice next year, and again and again and again. Who needs to win elections or pass legislation when you can just threaten to blow the place up unless your demands are met? Hopefully the Democrats have learned that you do not negotiate with terrorists. It just encourages them.
Image what kind of people are going to want to get involved in politics in the future when virtually all disputes will be about maintain the current levels of entitlement spending, finding the ability to borrow enough to run the government, and trying to raise enough taxes to fund a growing entitlement state.
Why kind of person really wants to be the tax collector for the welfare state.
But any marginal device will be priced out of the market. Just like cigarette taxes are designed to discourage smoking, medical device taxes will have the effect of creating fewer medical devices.
The Democrats talk about wanting to create more jobs but then tend to find ways to discourage growth in the private sector.
Ezra Klein reminds us what this is all about:
While I think there is a lot to what he says I don’t think that’s the main reason – it still boils down to the fact they don’t like a black man in the White House and they are willing to destroy the country in order to destroy Obama. Yes I’m bringing up the race card but you can’t be serious unless you do – it’s there.
Daniel Larison makes his living by claiming to be a conservative while spending all of his time telling Republicans that they are stupid. If conservatives did what Mr. Larison suggested, the Republican Party would have been out of business years ago.
Everyone should be remind that Mr. Klein’s number one policy goal is single payer healthcare because it will create the one party state faster, will make the federal government much larger and more powerful, and will give more power to the patron class such as Mr. Klein.
The last thing that Republicans should do is take advice from a liberal like Mr. Klein.
Daniel Larison makes his living by claiming to be a conservative while spending all of his time telling Republicans that they are stupid.
As a real conservative should.
Well thats one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read.
Cars are taxed…has it led to fewer cars?
You guys amaze me. Considering all the energy you guys put into going back and forth about the Democrats this or the Republicans that, how come you don’t spend more time on the fact that the private Federal Reserve is creating 85 billion dollars a month out of thin air. This is so called money which is absolutely worthless because it’s not backed by anything. Inflation anyone?
I assume you guys are also aware of the fact that the U.S. government does not control the U.S. dollar, the private Federal Reserve does. How do you justify this?
The last thing that Republicans should do is take advice from a liberal like Mr. Klein.
He isn’t offering them advice. He is pointing out the reality of their position. You can’t dispute that, so you resort to idiotic argumentum ad hominem.
@Rob in CT beat you by over 40 minutes. Got to stay on top of these things.
Go back to your hole, goldbug.
“This is so called money which is absolutely worthless because it’s not backed by anything. Inflation anyone?”
Even ignoring the “I need to change the subject — Look over there” aspect of this comment, when inflation is running about 2% per year, I think we have bigger concerns.
@superdestroyer: “But any marginal device will be priced out of the market. Just like cigarette taxes are designed to discourage smoking, medical device taxes will have the effect of creating fewer medical devices. ”
You know, you’re exactly right. That’s why no one buys liquor, gasoline or property anymore.
@Raider: “how come you don’t spend more time on the fact that the private Federal Reserve is creating 85 billion dollars a month out of thin air. ”
Because we don’t care.
@superdestroyer: Can you quantify that marginal effect in terms of how many jobs you claim to be imperiled so I can understand this better? I do believe that every dollar of the small excise tax the government pays out has more bang than it would if passed up to the folks who have enough and won’t spend it.
Uh-oh…Raider has been watching Glenn Beck again…here comes the crazy-train.
@Raider: If it’s not real money, how come people agree to part with their interest carrying bonds in exchange for it? In fact, how come so many companies are willing to trade worthless dollars for infinetely valuable gold? Are they just doing that out of altruistic concern for the welfare of their clients?
@Raider: Because historically we’ve tried it the other way and it doesn’t work.
Look at the number of bubbles and crashes per year we had before and after going off the gold standard.
Second–if you want to lock yourself into the gold standard, then your money supply is limited to the amount of gold that exists. Which means that you have limited the amount of money in circulation. So how do you grow your economy?
@grumpy realist: Why, Leprechauns, of course!
I am still waiting for you to send me whatever worthless coins and paper currency you may have since it has no value to you.
It is clear that you must be a Breatharian since United States money will not buy you any food. http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/edible-innovations/breatharian.htm
I’ll bet you run around naked too!
Of course maybe you meet all your needs living in a dumpster.
Clinton nails it:
Humanoid.panda, what we have now is called fiat currency. Look up the meaning of fiat currency. History shows that the fiat currency system always fails.
C. Clavin, Moosebreath, and Mantis, how do you justify the fact that the U.S. government does not control the U.S. dollar but instead the private Federal Reserve does? Can any Democrat of Republican answer this question?
Mr Larison would have a lot more credibility if he ever bothered to call a single liberal stupid. Even during the Syria controversy, Mr. Larison spent his time finding some Republican to call stupid instead of review the entire Obama Administration policy and how it fit into the administrations overall policy.
As I have speculated before, Mr. Larison is wise enough to not pick on Democrats because then he would stop being the “good conservative.”
“how do you justify the fact that the U.S. government does not control the U.S. dollar but instead the private Federal Reserve does”
Because the Federal Reserve is not private. It’s a governmental agency created by Congress, whose members are appointed by the President and confirmed by Congress. Next attempt to change the subject?
@Raider: Please provide proof of your assertion that “fiat currency always fails.” Oh, and please give me an example of a non-fiat currency that has “not failed.”
Seems to me that the Roman Empire had a hellova problem with counterfeiting and cutting down the gold amount in the coins….care to comment on that?
Everything fails eventually. The Roman Empire failed. But it had a helluva run.
It’s telling that you think you said something profound.
Maybe not but I am an anarchist and I am here to help!
@humanoid.panda: In the last iteration of the gold standard, currencies were backed by nothing but governmental promises to redeem the value of the paper you are holding in exchange for gold at a price set by governments. Do you want to give government that power? If you want to go back to privately operated gold standard backed by notes issued by banks operating under a fractional reserve banking system, you should read up what panics did to 19th century economies. If you want to get ban fractional reserve banking and go back to bullion based economies than 1) you hate the free market that created the fractional reserve system 2) you are really pining for the middle ages, the last time currencies were based on bullion alone.
Why should we re-link the value of our currency to a commodity that is extracted-produced in America, Canada, and Australia, as well as in China, Russia, South Africa, Peru, Mexico and Indonesia among others? Some of those countries go in and out of favor in relation to the United States.
Gold is a commodity whose value is determined in the commodity markets and as such the value is subject to wide variation and fluctuation. We left gold behind because currencies can be valued directly, in relation to other currencies, every day. There is no need to re-interject gold into the system of currency valuation.
“Because the Federal Reserve is not private. It’s a governmental agency created by Congress, whose members are appointed by the President and confirmed by Congress.”
Moosebreath, are you serious? The fact are: the Federal Reserve is privately controlled and privately owned. It is not part of the U.S. government. Who do you think owns and controls the Federal Reserve? If you think the U.S. government controls the FED, then which branch of the government is the FED under?
It odd that Clinton would define America failing as the same thng as the Democrats not getting everything they wanted. Maybe we should remember that when Clinton was president, he was quite willing to throw the Congressional Democrats under the bus and make deals with the Repubicans. That American has a great economy under Clinton was probably partially due to his willingness to throw those Democrats under the bus. Maybe the Obama Administration has had five years of poor economic performance because President Obama has decide that the Democrats in Congress are more important than having America succeed.
@Ernieyeball: Dumpsters have internet now?
Yes, they loved Bill so much that they impeached him (after a virtually permanent 6 year investigation into Whitewater, Rose Law Office billings, the White House Travel Office, blue dresses, and so forth). The good old days: Republicans look back fondly on a president who negotiated with them and was impeached by them.
“The fact are: the Federal Reserve is privately controlled and privately owned. It is not part of the U.S. government. Who do you think owns and controls the Federal Reserve?”
So when during the last few months, Obama was deciding whether Larry Summers or Janet Yellin should be the next Chairman of the Federal Reserves, was he making a recommendation which private banks could decide whether or not to accept? I know the sun is gold in your world, but what color is the sky?
The Democrats don’t want anything.
Congress spent money. Now they have to pay the bills. The extremists in the Republican Party don’t want to pay their bills. And they think they can hold the world economy hostage by not paying their bills.
It seems you, along with JKB and most Republicans, don’t understand what is going on.
Perhaps instead of posting stupid comments you should endeavor to understand how Government works. Then once you have a grasp of the issues you can form an opinion.
But opinions based on nonsense…are nonsense.
@humanoid.panda: Also, the only reason that gold gets picked is because it’s reasonably scarce (when you want it in lump form), pretty, mallable, and doesn’t tarnish.
Aside from that and having some spiffy energy-band surfaces, gold’s pretty useless. (Silver is more conductive.)
I’d rather put my money into platinum, which at least has useful catalytic effects.
What’s going to be really fun is watching all the goldbugs run around in a panic when some bright spark actually manages to use nanotechnology-based filters to start mining gold out of seawater and can start dumping it on the market by the ton.
Target for nanotech venture fund: develop product to mine gold out of seawater getting necessary energy off solar cells so that production of gold is cheap, cheap, cheap.
Develop process to synthesize diamonds a meter on a side.
(twiddles thumbs. Hmm. What else can we do to freak out the goldbugs?)
Moosebreath, what part of the U.S. government is the Federal Reserve under?
OOOOHHHH OOOOHHHHH I CAN I CAN I CAN
I have a picture… Of Ronald Reagan…. In a Berlin bunker…. teabagging Hitler’s …..
OK OK, even I can’t go there. But Tip O’Neill was there and so was Nancy and Dick Armey. Cheney wanted in but they had the door locked and he didn’t have a key so, screw him, SOCIAL DRINK!!….
Uhhh, believe it or not, it gets worse from there.
Even during the Syria controversy, Mr. Larison spent his time finding some Republican to call stupid instead of review the entire Obama Administration policy and how it fit into the administrations overall policy.
Nonsense. Its obvious you don’t even read his stuff, but you sure have opinions about it! Typical.
And yet Raider is trying with his Federal Reserve idiocy.
There are a few things that will do it:
1. Elect a Black (Democratic Party) president.
2. Elect a Black (Democratic Party) president.
3. Elect a Black (Democratic Party) president.
4. Elect a Black (Democratic Party) president.
@Moosebreath: And a quote from another American Conservative blogger, Rod Dreher:
Does enacted by Congress mean anything to you?
How about Congressional Oversight?
Appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate?
Testify before Congress?
David M, what branch of the U.S. government is the Federal Reserve under?
I’ll accept your non answer as an admission that you spoke foolishly concerning me.
I’ve been meaning to bring this up, but isn’t one of the core GOP positions that uncertainty is holding back the economy?
Or does “uncertainty” now need quotes as well, like the “deficit”.
C. Clavin, what branch of the U.S. government is the Federal Reserve under?
You’re so wrong about the Fed that there’s no point arguing with you. It’s like trying to explain math to my dog.
Does enacted by Congress mean anything to you?
How about Congressional Oversight?
Appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate?
Testify before Congress?
Quit threadjacking, troll. Nobody cares about your gold fetish.
David M. you know what I said about your expected non answer, and so be it.
C. Clavin, you’re not answering the question. Why are you avoiding the answer?
@Raider: Uhhhh Raider? You do realize that there is this thing called the “internet” and that on the internet there is a thing called “Google” and if you use it to search the internet for articles about the “Federal Reserve” you will with in 5 seconds or less be referred to a wikipedia article (amongst 15,900,00 others) entitled “Federal Reserve Act” which begins,
The Federal Reserve Act (ch. 6, 38 Stat. 251, enacted December 23, 1913, 12 U.S.C. ch. 3) is an Act of Congress that created and set up the Federal Reserve System, the central banking system of the United States of America, and granted it the legal authority to issue Federal Reserve Notes (now commonly known as the U.S. Dollar) and Federal Reserve Bank Notes as legal tender. The Act was signed into law by President Woodrow Wilson.
If you wanted more information than that you could read further into the article,
The plan adopted in the original Federal Reserve Act called for the creation of a System that contained both private and public entities. There were to be at least eight, and no more than 12, private regional Federal reserve banks (12 were established) each with its own branches, board of directors and district boundaries and the System was to be headed by a seven member Federal Reserve Board made up of public officials appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate (strengthened and renamed in 1935 as the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System with the Secretary of the Treasury and the Comptroller of the Currency dropped from the Board). Also created as part of the Federal Reserve System was a 12 member Federal Advisory Committee and a single new United States currency, the Federal Reserve Note.
and if you went to the very end you would find,
Controversy about the Federal Reserve Act and the establishment of the Federal Reserve System has existed since prior to its passage. Some of the questions raised include: whether Congress has the Constitutional power to delegate its power to coin money or issue paper money, whether the Federal Reserve is a public cartel of private banks (also called a banking cartel) established to protect powerful financial interests, and whether the Federal Reserve’s actions increased the severity of the Great Depression in the 1930s (and/or the severity or frequency of other boom-bust economic cycles, such as the late-2000s recession).
Or you could just go read the other 15,899,999 other articles until you had your questions answered/ found the latest conspiracy theory that suited your fancy.
Either way, you need no longer bother us with your insanity.
I sit in my car in Mickey D’s parking lot and use their free Wi-Fi when I am traveling cross country.
So I guess Raider can relax in his McDumpster and make the same connection. Wi-Fi not?
I do wonder where Raider where got his laptop since they cost money and as he has repeatedly stated “Your cash ain’t nothin’ but Trash”.
(Apologies to Steve Miller Band)
It’s an independent agency, same as the Federal Communications Commission, the Federal Elections Commission, and numerous other similar agencies, all of which share the same first word in their names, as a hint to them being part of the Federal government.
Correction: within 0.26 seconds.
Sorry. My bad.
Mantis, I notice you’re a pretty good stone thrower, but is that all you can do?
What branch of the U.S. government is the Federal Reserve under?
No…I’m not giving you the answer you think you know is the answer.
Trying looking up the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
If you must know, up until very close to my incident, I was counting pocket change in order to pay for a lifestyle that had a $30 a week grocery budget after a layoff from a job that provided free health insurance as part of my compensation package after the financial meltdown in 2008. Plus, my back had initially been hurt when I was 16 playing sports in high school (damn irresponsible kids getting pre-existing conditions before they are of age). This, along with a history of kidney stones, made your b.s. “affordable” policies impossible to get. The hospital that conducted my surgery assigned me a patient advocate who was able to get me on state assistance for a year and consider 90% of my bill as a write off. After returning to work four days after release from spinal rehab, I was fired three weeks later (coincidentally the date I was eligible for health insurance).
Really, the spinal injury is what it is…the lawsuit against the 1at hospital for thier dismal treatment will be over soon. The thing that gets me is I could never get state assistance again even though I was unemployed and had an open wound in my foot that had already been infected three times causing me to get vancomycin treatments directly into my heart 4 times a day for a month after each surgery. Lived with it for the next year and a half by siaking gauze pads in daikons solution (saline and bleach) and wrapping it up while walking 3/4 of a mile each way to the bus stop to get to work and back for 3 months at one job til I was let go for not performing to quota and 4 months to another until 10 days before my mother died causing me to move in with my pops to help him out. Got reinfected through a shard of bone that splintered off which got into my kidneys and bladder as well…refused to go to the hospital until the straight catheters I need to run would not enter my bladder. Spent 10 days in the hospital getting two surguries and another round of antibiotics straight to the heart. The iv infusions continued for another 6 weeks 2x a day. Since I had no income and no assets (I had long since sold anything of value including my wedding ring and family heirlooms to keep a roof over my head and food in my gut while I spent 6 months living in my room…looking at the same four walls every day), I became a charity care patient so I am only weeks away from getting a skin graft to end this ordeal.
I could have had a akin graft much earlier, a year and a half ago, but the plastc surgeon wouldn’t do it with no coverage. I understand his position. No ill feelings towards him since his office did help supply gauze pads and ace bandages for free while I was trying to work long enough to get on a group plan.
I have elderly patents and my ex wife had severe asthma, as wrll as my own complications mentioned above, so I was well aware that I was not invulnerable and had kept a crap job that contributed to my divorce from a terrific woman just to keep insured.
Hopefilly I pass whatever test or requirements that you have in your head to get the treatment I need so I can get back to work and stop being a “moocher”. For someone who has had a job since the age of 12 and worked 30+ hours a week through college at one of the most difficult schools in the country (Hampden-Sydney College for 2 1/2 years, dropping out after my mother got sick…finishing up at a much easier and cheaper school a few years later, wvu), this has been torture with my mind full of what ifs. I am very thankful to the friends and employers that helped me after my spinal injury and foot injury. To those who tossed me to the side and didn’t give me a chance to show them that I was still the same hard worker that would do my damndest to get the job done or reciprocate any help given…well they can eat a sack of salted baby d-cks.
OK Raider…what branch of the US Government is the Federal Reserve under?
My cat is smarter than your dog!
D’oh!!!! Wi-fi. I am such a neanderthal sometimes. Out here where I live? We don’t even have cell phones. I felt sooooooo TECHNO-GEEKY when we got satellite so I could actually use this internet thingy. As to where Raider got his laptop, I suspect he bartered 2 eggplants, half a bushel of tomatoes, 2 used pair of jeans, an apron, and a well seasoned dutch oven. Either that or he got those suckers to actually take some of those useless “Federal Reserve Notes”. (Legal Tender for All Debts Public and Private, In God We Trust)
Mantis, I notice you’re a pretty good stone thrower, but is that all you can do?
Unlike you, I’m capable of discussing the topic of the thread, not just endlessly harping on my personal bugaboos.
@grumpy realist: For my sins, my day job is a historian of the Soviet Union. Just the other day, I encountered a funny anecdote in the party archive; as the Soviet Unioin believed the world will return to the gold standard one day, it kept hoarding gold all the way into the 1980s. One of the sides effects of this was that in the 1970s, where computer circuits used relatively large amounts of gold due to its extremely high electrical conductivity, the Soviet computer industry got no gold allotments and had to replace it with other compounds. As a result, Soviet mainframes were notoriously unreliable, and the Soviet Union had to spend dollars on buying IBM equipment. For reasons the Raiders of the world can’t quite comprhehend, IBM was more than willing to part with its computers in exchange for the useless dollars the Soviets paid.
Ozark, what I asked is this: What part of the U.S. government is the Federal Reserve under? Why not just keep your answer simple and honest and admit that you don’t know. Copying and pasting what you did, does not answer the question.
Moosebreath, What branch of the U.S. government is the Federal Reserve hinting that it’s under?
@Raider: The president appoints the board of the federal reserve, and the Senate confirms its members. Both the Senate and the House have oversight functions over the reserve, but, like parliaments all over the capitalist world, it has a very wide leeway in conducting its activities. The (relative) independence of central bankers was by the way passionately advocated by noted communist symphatizer Milton Freidman. Any more questions?
@humanoid.panda: I think the answer he is looking for is none. It is an independent agency set up by the Government but is not under the direct control of any branch of the Government. Hence the word independent.
I’m sure there is more to come. Watch for segues into one world government and the Illuminati.
@humanoid.panda: It’s no use. Either he’s a troll or is brain-damaged.
@thomm: Long story short: You have pre-existing conditions too?
Me: Bone spurs in my neck. Arthritis in shoulders and hands. Bursitis in shoulders and elbows. Tendonitis in elbows. Carpal tunnel. Blood clots. High blood pressure. Etc etc…. That is only what I have been diagnosed with. I am in pain 24/7. But to be honest?
I will take all this times 2 for the rest of my life before facing what you have had to deal with. There are pre-existing conditions and there are PRE-EXISTING FVCKING CONDITIONS!!!!!!!!!
I have the former, you have the latter.
@grumpy realist: If it were not for brain damaged trolls, we’d all be working at the moment, so they fill a useful social function.
“Unlike you, I’m capable of discussing the topic of the thread, not just endlessly harping on my personal bugaboos.”
OK, Mantis, in other words you’ve got nothing but stone throwing and no answer. So be it.
C. Clavin says: “No…I’m not giving you the answer you think you know is the answer.
Trying looking up the Dunning-Kruger Effect.”
LOL, whatever man.
“OK Raider…what branch of the US Government is the Federal Reserve under?”
The Federal Reserve is not under any branch of the U.S. government and that’s the sad reality.
To go totally off topic–did you ever run into anything on the Urals nuclear waste dump meltdown back in the 1950s? Supposedly was the reason why after that physicists in the USSR were exempt from the doctrine of “Revealed Truth.”
What I replied is this:
Stop bothering normal people with your idiotic questions and figure it out for yourself. You have the tools.
Go forth and grow, Grasshopper.
Exactly Scott, the Federal Reserve is not directly under the control of any branch of the U.S. government, and yet it controls the money. How can this be justified because it is obviously unconstitutional?
1. Is America the Greatest Country on Earth?
2. What kind of banking system does America have?
(IOW, goldbugs want to risk a great deal, everything in fact, on a dream.)
OK, Mantis, in other words you’ve got nothing but stone throwing and no answer. So be it.
Why should I indulge you in your threadjacking? Got an answer for that? Got anything on-topic to say? Take your gold obsession to Glenn Beck’s place, or discuss it on a relevant thread here. Or start your own blog to obsess over it at.
I am pretty sure Raider is a young teen and successful troll.
I guess I could say congrats on the successful trolling, but don’t think for a minute it worries me.
WE HAVE A WINNER!!!! RAIDER FINALLY FIGURES OUT THAT THE MONETARY POLICY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS BEYOND THE POLITICAL CONTROL OF ANY ONE PARTY!!!!!
Hey Raider, guess what? Because we have an “independent” Federal Reserve, our economy has grown DESPITE EVERYTHING THE REPUBLICAN PARTY COULD DO TO SABOTAGE THE RECOVERY!
Sorry for the all caps, but the obvious seems to escape your attention.
@grumpy realist: @grumpy realist: Actually, this is the first time i’ve ever heard of this, but i will check with some friends who study nuclear culture in the Soviet Union. As far as exemptions for physicists go, this had happened as early as 1945. As the story goes when nuclear physicists refused to denounce relativity as a “bourgouis pseudo-science”, Beria, the head of the secret police who was also in charge of the Soviet nuclear bomb program, let them get away with it, saying “we can always shoot them later.”
the investigations did not stop Clinton from passing welfare reform NAFTA, and actually shrink the size of the government. Have all of the progressives already forgotten about triangulation? Have they already forgotten how Clinton abandon his more progressive programs after the 1994 election.
Clinton was probably the most libertarian president the U.S. is ever going to have and yet the Democrats are determined to not do anything that was done during the Clinton Administration.
@OzarkHillbilly: And yeah, “independent” is in quotes for a reason. I repeat, “Use the google Grasshopper.”
Congress did not spend money. Congress has not passed a full budget in six years. Congress has just maintain spending on automatic. the fight is over a continuing resolution which has become the defacto budget. since Congress refuses to pass a real budget. Of course, the reason the Democrats refuse to pass a budget is that they are convinced they will soon have an unbeatable majority in Congress and do not see the need to compromise with the Republicans.
Congress provides oversight…ipso facto…
It is true that the Fed is insulated from politicians…and given today’s knuckleheads it’s a lucky thing.
That does not mean its not under Congress.
Hence confirmation hearings, and testifying before Congress.
You really need to stop paying attention to Glenn Beck…
Actually, I still follow Mr. Larison and he almost never criticizes the Obama Administration. He managed to criticize John McCain more about Syria than he criticized the Obama Administration. If you look at the comments on his posts, they are almost uniformly from the left because Mr. Larison has banned virtually all right of center posters. Any defense of Republicans will not be tolerate.
There is a small market for “conservative” who only nitipick conservatives. What is amazing is how sparse Mr. Larison is in actually making policy decisions. As like more academics, he limits himself to nitpicking others while avoiding the nitpicking himself.
To be picky (and an interminable jerk):
…the Soviet computer industry got no gold allotments and had to replace it with
Gold (AU) is a chemical element.
Can you imagine if Republicans in Congress ran the Fed?
Everyone of their economic theories are f ‘ing failures…shareholder value…supply side trickle down voodoo…tax cuts paying for themselves…austerity in the face of recession…Republican BS is a big part of the problems we face today.
If I believed in God I’d thank her that the Fed is Independent.
One of the biggest economic factors in the Reagan years was Volker, appointed by Carter.
Then Reagan appointed Greenspan who f’ed us. Yeah, Alan, the Bush tax cuts were genius…idiot.
@superdestroyer: I see you’ve already forgotten how i showed you yesterday that the Dems passed a budget this year and the GOP refused to go to conference with them.
@Ernieyeball: Obviously there is a reason I am in the humanities, not the hard sciences.
1. Does the Supreme Court know about this?
2. Shouldn’t you call 9-1-1 and/or notify Ted Cruz?
3. What is the hyper-inflations rate these days – less than 3%?
@humanoid.panda: Hee! The story I was told (from a fellow classmate at MIT) was that Revealed Truth governed all, including the physicists….until the administration decided to put together a nuclear waste dump in the Urals, using, of course, calculations on what the critical mass was due to Revealed Truth. All the physicists screamed “NOOOO!” and the administration said “nonsense! It is Truth, as revealed in the writings of Marx and Lenin….”
Shortly afterwards a much larger section of the Urals became radioactive…..and the administration decided that physicists would be exempt from the doctrine of Revealed Truth.
(I ran across something later in a book which made me think it wasn’t actual criticality that was triggered but a helluva lot of cooling water becoming radioactive debris + steam and contaminating a large part of the scenery.)
I spent a fair share of my career working as Telephone Trash in Misery. I could have likely gotten a decent motel room in a lot of places for most of that but I would have slept in my truck in a snowstorm before giving up my dutch oven
@superdestroyer: So, now you support NAFTA? Since when are immigration restrictions supporters of free trade?
Yup…had em since a teenager. Had my first kidney stone when I was 22…was on a cane for the last semester and a half of college since my back went out bad enough to shut down my right leg. Went 16 years in daily pain until the explosion…hell…only took my SAT’s once because how much it hurt to sit that long to take them. No matter what pain I have been in, I tried to keep normal and working. Kept playing lacrosse after getting hurt when I was 16, started fencinh in college and did it on and off intil my back exploded at the age of 33. I’llbe damned before I let anyone question how I tried to take care of myself. I am dealing with permanent complications, but refuse to give up and spend my days in front of a tv…even if it means cruising around a dealership in a wheelchair. I loved my last work and won’t let this keep me from it as long as I can find a place that will take a chance on me.
@C. Clavin: Well, we’ ve seen what happens when you get the Tea Partiers trying to run a financial system. Anyone remember what happened to Iraq?
When I looked at wikiepdia on the 2014 budget. The Democrats in the Senate voted down the House budget and substituted their own with all of the Democrats budget priorities including higher taxes and more entitlement spending. As I have pointed out many times, Sen. Reid is demanding a complete win on the budget issue and is likely to get it because no matter how many times the Senate votes down continuing resolutions and budgets because Republicans are always to blame for government closures and the Democrats know that they will win in the long run.
What does NAFTA have to do with immigraiton. A car made in Canada does not demand affirmative action, does not have three kids, does not qualify for food stamps, and cannot have anchor babies.
And the House GOP chose not to go to conference and negotiate the differences. I’m beginning to think you really don’t understand how Congress works.
@grumpy realist: Nah. Your friend got it wrong. The accident happened in late 1950s, and by that time there was very little political pressure on physicists (biologists were still forced to deny genetics though). It’s possible that the management of the reactor put pressure on the engineeering personnel to ignore safety rules ,but that kind of crap happens under all political systems.
@superdestroyer: Why? Because believing in the free mobility for capital and border controls for people makes absolutely no sense. If wages in the US are higher than wages in Mexico and the borders are open, lower wage workers will migrate and bring wages of local workers down, while transforming local communities, for better or worse. If borders with Mexico are closed for people but open for capital and goods, same jobs will migrate to Mexico, destroying those same communities. The one virtue of many immigration restrictionists of the Buchanan school is that they at least grasp this point. I presumed you were of that same school, but obviously was giving you too much credit.
@superdestroyer: So, your previous argument was that Reid won’t accept compromise since he hasn’t passed a budget resolution. Now, it is that he rejects compromise because he passed a resolution that has the priorities of the Democratic majority and not the Republican minorities. In the meanwhile, Reid had repeatedly suggested to go to conference committee, where the differences between the two resolutions are supposed to be ironed out, and the GOP declined that offer. How does this prove that Reid is the rejectionist one, is beyond my comprehension.
Because the Dems are the problem, don’t you see. Whatever they did is sneaky and wrong, the specific actions aren’t really relevant.
That’s how the inane “they didn’t pass a budget” complaints can continue, even after passing a non-binding budget resolution.
@Raider: Funny, when General Motors had a management team installed by the Gov’t, Zombie dodgers like you were calling it “Government Motors”. When you’ve been schooled that the leadership of the Fed is likewise appointed by government–you rail on about it not being part of the government……the same government you claim can’t do anything right and shouldn’t do anything (except cut taxes).
Back in your bunker troll.
@superdestroyer: Sooooo….he’s trying to make his “team” a legitimate alternative to the other team. And you have a problem with that? As you were.
Just the other day you were telling me that we are all sick puppies…
I expect Raider to be both an exceptionalist and a doomsdayer.
I don’t expect him to examine greatness with real cross country comparisons
“What branch of the U.S. government is the Federal Reserve hinting that it’s under?”
Just because the correct answer is not the one you want it to be is no reason to pester people who have repeatedly given you the correct answer.
And millions of tent pegs are innocently pounded into the ground by campers each year, and yet I wouldn’t name my political movement the Pegging Party….
@john personna: So the United States is the Greatest Country on Earth except compared to other countries??????
Blah blah blah…
The shutdown has taken effect.
THANKS Tea Baggers !!!!
The Republicans have offered to go to conference
but once again, Sen Reid refuses because he willl not sign off unless he gets the victory. Welcome to the one party state where a few senior legislators will control everything that no matter how much you vote, it will have zero effect on them.
@superdestroyer: Going to conference over a 6 week continued resolution is a total and useless waster of time. The time for negotiations is when the two sides are debating that year’s budget, and this they are refusing to do.
@superdestroyer: You really are an idiot, aren’t you? Reid et al were BEGGING for a conference during the budget process and Boehner absolutely refused to do anything. Now it’s at the eleventh hour and 55 minutes, suddenly they offer one and it’s the Dems who are responsible for saying ” it’s too late, you nitwits”?
You’re like someone who runs out in front of a train and then gets surprised when it runs you over.
The problem is that Sen. REid was another year long CR what will allow the Obama Administration to spend how it wants without Congressional approval. How does it help the Republicans to do that again?
Once again, will any historian even notice that President Obama will go his entire term as president without signing any appropriation or budget legislation and operating the government under CR. I wonder if the Clinton II will even bother to ever sign a budget law?
The problem is that Sen. REid was another year long CR what will allow the Obama Administration to spend how it wants without Congressional approval.
You are such a moron.
@superdestroyer: Actually, the CR Reid passed in the Senate runs until Dec. 15th, but hey, every single statement you made on this thread is wrong, so why should you care?
@superdestroyer: And here, for the Nth time, are the facts of the budgetary process for the year. The Senate Democrats made 18 requests to go to conference, and all were rejected. The republicans made a request to go to conference, coupled with a year long delay of the mandate an hour before the government shutdown, asking, in essence, for a huge concession as price for entering negotiations. Conclusion, according to the resident genius: the Democrats are bullies!
I think we can all agree that Republicans are not interested in responsible governance.
They just forced a (completely expected) shutdown of the federal government, and the only remaining question is when they will leverage this into another downgrade in the rating of American debt securities.
I was pecking on my phone and expecting Raider, and you, to connect the dots.
If YOU simply think America is the greatest country on earth, without any introspection, then why are you complaining about its banking system? It works great, by definition.
If on the other hand you want to look at unemployment levels, or export ratios, or life expectancy, or general happiness, and you find other countries doing better …. well how are THEY doing it? With a gold standard?
I don’t think so. None of the successful countries world-wide have one, though in each the do have a minority of nuts who demand one.
Most of the government has operated under CR for years. President Obama has never signed a budget bill that would fund the entire government. That has allowed the Obama Administration a massive amount of flexibility on spending since there are now real budgets. What is amazing is that the national debt has gone up over $5 trillion dollars during the Obama Adminstration at the same time that a budget has never been passed.
Image what spending will be in the coming one party state with no political restraint on spending and the demand for entitlement ever increasing.
Since YOU is in all caps I take it you are addressing ME personally. Please see:
I thought I was challenging Raider and his gold dust dreams. Please explain how this is ME complaining about the United States banking system.
As far as “without introspection” is concerned you are presuming that since I might not follow the same path as you that any navel-gazing I might have done was not worthwhile.
“general happiness” Now there is a term open to interpretation.
Shall we go with Aristotle?
Or The Beatles?
I will be generaly happy if my Social Security deposit is on time this month despite the actions of House Republicans who are happy to ruin the lives of American Citizens.
What? I misinterpreted a cute one-liner?
Left to read the tea leaves I thought you’d’ totally missed the contradiction I was throwing Raider’s way, and so I expanded.
@john personna: You want Cute? You want HAPPINESS?
After much introspection I have found the path to True Enlightment! These guys are my Heros! I try to follow their teachings every day!.
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