Turkish Prime Minister: Israel Is A Terrorist State
Well, this certainly isn’t going to help:
WASHINGTON (CBSDC/AP) — A top Turkish official has claimed that Israel is committing acts of terrorism by bombing Hamas targets in Gaza.
Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan told the Eurasian Islamic Council conference in Istanbul that the Jewish state is systematically mass-killing Muslims.
“Those who associate Islam with terrorism close their eyes in the face of mass killing of Muslims, turn their heads from the massacre of children in Gaza,” Erdogan said, according to Reuters. “For this reason, I say that Israel is a terrorist state, and its acts are terrorist acts.”
The number of sane Muslim states left in the region seems to be down to one at this point, Jordan. There was a time when Turkey was considered one of those “moderate” Muslim states. That appears to no longer be the case.
Not every state is going to cheerlead for Israel after Israel kills its citizens the way the US did in the case of Furkan Dogan.
P.S. Turkey was never a moderate Arab state because Turks aren’t Arabs.
P.P.S. Turkey is a member of NATO and is thus closer to the US legally than Israel is.
@Geek, Esq.:
You are correct. I’ve changed the text to reflect that.
As for Turkey’s NATO membership, this is a fact but it’s also a fact that Turkey’s recent turns in policy have not been helpful.
The origin of Israel was terrorism and it has remained a terrorist state. The Zionists are among the most prejudiced in the world.
@Ron Beasley:
Call me funny, but I don’t consider trying to stop terrorists who want to wipe you off the map from firing rockets into your country indiscriminately to be “terrorism.”
I’ve questioned Israel’s actions before, but not this time.
@Doug Mataconis:
Certainly, Turkey’s attitude towards Israel has not been helpful for the U.S., but it’s not their job.
Also not helpful: the Israeli government’s disinterest in any kind of bona fide two state solution (the Netanyahu version is a semi-autonomous Palestinian entity surrounded by Israel that has no control over its own borders, internal movements, airspace, treaty making authority, or underground water rights–essentially the Palestinians would have the same arrangement as Native Americans do here).
@Geek, Esq.: Interesting story there on Mr. Dogan.
His last diary entry proclaimed his desire to become a martyr.
The ship he was on was boarded by Israelis — legally — and they were promptly attacked, with several being severely injured.The “peaceful activists” had clubs and knives at hand, and the Israelis severely outnumbered.
Kind of reminds me of Abdulrahman Al-Awlaki, the 16-year-old American who was killed by one of Obama’s drone strikes. Or Rachel Corrie, who tried to use her “white American woman” status to protect Palestinian terrorists.
If you’re looking for Americans to have sympathy for, Geek, Google up Shoshana Greenbaum, a 31-year-old woman from New Jersey murdered by a Palestinian terrorist in an attack so celebrated by the Palestinians, they put up a recreation of it.
@Geek, Esq.: Geek, it also probably escaped your notice that Hamas is a fierce backer of a one-state solution — their charter calls for genocide against Jews.
Isreal is just as much at fault as Hamas is at this point. If Isreal wanted peace they would stop the settlements.
@Vast Variety:
There are no settlements in Gaza.
@Geek, Esq.:
Kind of hard to negotiate with a group that doesn’t recognize your right to exist, no?
You can’t really look at just this statement in isolation separate from the recent diplomatic history between Turkey and Israel. It is part of a pattern of deteriorating relations going back to – at minimum – the Gaza Flotilla incident.
I wonder how he feels about the dead
terroristschildren in Kurdistan.@Doug Mataconis:
Helpful to whom? To us, or to Israel? Maybe not, but then again, why should they be? Turkey should act in Turkey’s best interests. If we or Israel want them to be helpful to us, we’ve got to give them some reason.
@Doug Mataconis:
No, not really. That’s part of what negotiation is — working with your enemies. You don’t have to negotiate with your family or friends — you only need to negoiate with people who are somewhat opposed to you. See, e.g. Stalin-Hitler pact.
@Doug Mataconis:
That’s an excuse, not an obstacle. Gestures and recognitions may be helpful, but they are not necessary for negotiations.
Moreover, if we’re going to use that as a standard, the Israelis have never recognized the Palestinians’ right to self-determination in a fully viable state of their own, as opposed to Bantustans.
@Doug Mataconis:
No, but Gaza isn’t seeking to be an independent nation, but rather part of a Palestinian state that the settlements have effectively made impossible.
@Geek, Esq.:
And it is ruled by a terrorist group that rejects the right of Israel to exist, and doesn’t think to kindly of the people who rule the West Bank for that matter.
@Geek, Esq.:
Last I checked it wasn’t the Israelis who started lobbing rockets at civilian targets
@Doug Mataconis:
The Palestinians and Israelis have been victimizing each other for decades now. There really isn’t a moral high ground to be had between the two of them.
The focus worldwide tends to be on Israel because it’s the stronger party–actually it’s the dominant party–and unlike the Palestinians it has the discretion to walk away from negotiations and just squeeze the other side.
And that’s exactly what they’ve done–present the Palestinians an alternative between (a) Bantustans and (b) permanent occupation.
Certainly the Palestinians have engaged in their share of abhorrent behavior in this saga, but they are the powerless party here. Their opinion and behavior is only relevant if the Israelis are willing to negotiate.
@Doug Mataconis:
Israel is Claire McCaskill to Hamas’s Todd Akin.
Israel’s m.o. has been to undermine and humiliate the P.A. ,which–though venal and corrupt–at least represents a sane counterparty to negotiations.
The P.A. has a choice between being the lapdog of the US and Israel or finding itself starved of resources and punished. So in either event Hamas will have some appeal.
@Doug Mataconis:
So what? That’s the situation on the ground, and Israel has to deal with it.
Kind of hard to negotiate with a group that doesn’t recognize your right to exist, no?
Kinda how a lot of Americans feel about negotiating with the GOP.
… Turkey is a democracy, as is Egypt now. Their voters are very angry at Israel. Politicians have to pander to that while, we hope, hewing a more sane course in practice.
So I think Doug may be overreacting to a single comment. Doug isn’t trying to stay in office as PM of Turkey.
So, I haven’t followed this that closely, but I believe that terrorists fired missiles into Israel, and Israel said “same thing, back at ya.”
Are those the facts?
@john personna:
Except that the ratio of Palestinian deaths to Israeli death is 20:1 (100 Palestinians dead, 5 Israelis dead).
But only the latter are worth noting in American political discourse, which places exactly zero worth on Palestinian lives.
Well, I’m certainly uncomfortable with Israeli actions, even though I am on their side of the religious and cultural divide.
I think the key for introspection might be how you’d feel if you were a peace loving moderate in some place like Turkey. Would you necessarily think that state level retribution was justice? I’d think not.
I think that some of the folks that simply take “team roles” here would do the same there. “Turkish Doug” is going to have a pretty good case for state irresponsibility, if nothing else.
@Doug Mataconis:
During the Civil War, the government of the United States did not recognize the right of the Confederacy to exist as a legitimate government. Yet in the end we managed to negotiate a peace with them.
@Rafer Janders:
The only negotiation we had with the CSA was “surrender now.” Lincoln specifically rejected the idea of negotiations with the Confederates and never engaged in them.
@Geek, Esq.: Except that the ratio of Palestinian deaths to Israeli death is 20:1 (100 Palestinians dead, 5 Israelis dead).
But only the latter are worth noting in American political discourse, which places exactly zero worth on Palestinian lives.
So, basically, because the Palestinians are far less competent than Israel, that excuses them?
Fact: The Palestinians are doing pretty much all they can to kill Israelis.
Fact: the Israelis actually put a lot of effort into minimizing collateral damage, and work very hard to kill only specific Palestinians.
Fact: the Palestinians pack their rockets with nails and screws and rat poison to maximize casualties.
Fact: Israel has actually reduced the warhead size in some of their missiles and rockets to reduce collateral damage.
Fact: the Palestinians routinely launch their attacks from very near schools and hospitals and mosques to use their own people as cover and deter Israel from shooting back.
And your argument for sympathizing with the Palestinians is that they’re so incompetent? What the bloody hell is WRONG with you?
@Jenos Idanian #13:
Dude. When your first “fact” is false on its face, I stop reading.
For the Palestinians to be “doing pretty much all they can to kill Israelis,” they’d be launching total war. They have not. They’ve been playing “lone gunman” and “we don’t know that guy” which is totally different.
@john personna: Please, make the argument how the Palestinians are showing restraint. They pack their rockets with screws and rat poison, they fire them in the general direction of Israel, and hope like hell to kill as many Jews as possible.
I repeat: you’re defending people who pack rockets with screws and rat poison. The rat poison is an anticoagulant, so the wounded tend to keep bleeding.
Would you call that a “chemical weapon?” I’m tempted.
@Doug Mataconis:
So if Pakistan started blowing up stuff in the US right now, you’d object to it being called terrorism on account of us firing rockets indiscriminately into their country?
@Jenos Idanian #13:
What percentage of “the Palestinians” are active participants in the missile war?
I am sure you are aware that part of the assemetry is this:
Israel shoots back at Palestinians, hoping to get them to curb Hamas, but it is a complex relationship.
@ john personna
Don’t you know that all Palestinians are barbarians and animals? Clearly you are not spending enough time at Red State or Michelle Malkin’s blog…
@Stormy Dragon:
I am already on record as opposing President Obama’s indiscriminate Drone War.
@john personna:
With good reason. The Palestinian Authority has renounced violence, cooperated with Israel on security, and attempted to negotiate a peaceful resolution. And what has it gotten them? An Israel that refuses to negotiate, has continued its occupation, embargoed the area, has used the breathing room to gradually steal more and more land from the Palestinians, and that refuses to recognize even the most basic of their civil rights. Meanwhile Hamas has gotten Israel to largely abandon Gaza, forcibly evacuate their settlers, and is able to maintain a certain level of open trade with the outside world.
Is it anyonereally suprised Palestinians are becoming more militant when Israel keeps making it clear that’s the only method that will result in any change?
@Doug Mataconis:
Well good for you, but that has nothing to do with the question I asked. The IDF has killed dozens of Palestinian civilians in the name of stopping Hamas rockets. You object to that being called terrorism. If Pakistan started killing Americans to stop our drone program, would you object to calling those attacks terrorism?
@john personna: What percentage of “the Palestinians” are active participants in the missile war?
What percentage of Israelis are participants in the attacks on Gaza?
What percentage of Palestinians are being targeted by Israel?
What percentage of Israelis are being targeted by Hamas? (That one’s a freebie.. it’s 100%.)
Finally… what percentage of Gazans voted for Hamas and all they stand for?
@Jenos Idanian #13:
You were supposed to pick up that the rockets from Palestinian land are sent by non-state actors. You were not supposed to be so dumb as to compare to the actions of democratically elected national governments.
More here: Proportionality and Gaza
That’s you, isn’t it?
@john personna:
I think they’re fine with it, so long as it occurs at no risk to themselves. As long as Americans aren’t dieing, they could care less how many faceless foreigners are being killed.
@john personna: You were supposed to pick up that the rockets from Palestinian land are sent by non-state actors. You were not supposed to be so dumb as to compare to the actions of democratically elected national governments.
Hamas is the closest thing to a “democratically elected national government,” and if the rocket-firers aren’t Hamas agents, then they’re acting with Hamas’ consent — if not at their direction.
If Hamas didn’t want them launched, then they wouldn’t be launched.