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9 Year Old Kills Gun Instructor Showing Her How To Fire An Uzi

Uzi Girl

A weapons instructor in Arizona is dead after being shot by an Uzi that he was teaching a nine year old girl how to use:

The authorities in Arizona on Wednesday were investigating what went wrong after a 9-year-old girl firing an Uzi submachine gun at a shooting range accidentally killed the instructor who had been showing her how to use it.

Charles Vacca, 39, died Monday, after the girl pulled the trigger of the Uzi and was apparently unable to control the recoil of the automatic weapon. A video of the episode shows the girl, wearing pink shorts, a gray T-shirt and a ponytail, firing a single shot. After the instructor switched the gun to automatic mode, she fired a barrage of bullets, her left arm drifting leftward from the force of the spray, toward where her instructor was standing over her.

The girl, whose name has not been released, was at the range with her parents, the authorities said.

The shooting range, Bullets and Burgers, is in the Mojave Desert just over the Arizona border from Nevada, near a highway popular with tourists that connects Las Vegas to the Grand Canyon. The range’s website advertises four-hour tour packages in which tourists can be picked up at their hotels, driven to the property and given “the opportunity to fire a wide range of fully automatic machine guns and specialty weapons.” Lunch is served, and guests can have videos taken of their shooting experience.

Some ranges prohibit young children from handling heavy weaponry, but this one allows children as young as 8 to participate. The Bullets and Burgers website offers an array of weaponry that its customers can sample, which include grenade launchers. It reads in part: “Shoot a wide variety of fully automatic machine and belt fed guns including the AK-47, Colt M-16, MP5/40, FN FAL, Bren, M4, M249, M60, PKM, and M203 Grenade Launcher.”

(…)

A video of the 9-year-old that cuts off just before the fatal shooting shows Mr. Vacca giving the girl basic instructions about the operation of the Uzi, a compact, powerful weapon designed for the Israeli military in the 1950s. The weapon, known for its ease of handling and simple design, has been featured prominently in popular movies and video games.

In the video, the girl is shown holding the Uzi while Mr. Vacca instructs her where to place her hands and how to position her legs.

“There you go, just like that,” Mr. Vacca tells her as the girl places her left leg in front of her right while handling the weapon.

“O.K., go on and give me one shot,” he says. The girl then fires a round to the left of a target. “All right!” Mr. Vacca says.

Mr. Vacca is then shown making an adjustment to the weapon. He then places one hand on the girl’s back to help steady her and uses his other forearm to help raise the barrel of the weapon. He appears to tell her to fire again.

But the weapon swings up and to the left, where Mr. Vacca is standing over the girl’s left shoulder. At that point, the video ends.

Here’s the video:

How anyone thought this was a good idea is beyond me. The girl’s parents are stupid for allowing this to happen and the instructor is stupid for participating in it. The only truly innocent party in all of this is the child, who will have to live with this moment the rest of her life.

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About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May, 2010 and also writes at Below The Beltway. Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. Here’s the video:

    I think OTB could do without the snuff films, Doug.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 10

  2. The video stops well before the guy is shot

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 2

  3. BK says:

    According to their facebook page (their site is down), having kids shooting machine guns is a big trend. I truly hope those morons will be out of business soon.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 3

  4. ernieyeball says:

    stupid, unintelligent, ignorant, dense, brainless, empty-headed, stunned, vacuous, vapid, idiotic, half-baked, imbecilic, bovine; informal thick, dim, moronic, thickheaded, fat-headed, daft.

    Well their website has been suspended. I was wanting to check if the instructors are NRA trained.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 3

  5. Giving a child that small even a single shot 9mm gun would be dangerous. Maybe a .22LR rifle, but even that’s pushing it.

    At that age, you’re probably better off sticking to a bb-gun, so they can learn firearm safety without using an actual firearm.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 25 Thumb down 2

  6. C. Clavin says:

    @Stormy Dragon:
    Actually I think everyone should be forced to see what weapons are actually intended to do. We romanticize them and minimize the damage. Every night some guy gets shot on TV and survives would should be a fatal gun shot wound.

    I feel terrible for that poor girl…at 9…she’s gonna be tortured by that for the rest of her days on earth. Why? Because her gun-nut parent(s) thought she should be handling a deadly weapon. And because the gun lobby owns Congress.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 27 Thumb down 4

  7. C. Clavin says:

    @BK:
    Hey…I hear you are buying Tim Horton’s and moving to Canada. Good for you.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 3

  8. Also, the first few times even an adult fires a fully automatic weapon, you only put 2 or 3 bullets in the magazine until they get used to it exactly so something like this doesn’t happen.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 3

  9. PJ says:

    Why would anyone deny this kid her God given 2nd amendment rights?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 2

  10. C. Clavin says:

    Comment from a tourism site featuring Bullets and Burgers:

    This is a great place for young children to learn to fire Uzis. With this kind of training, kids will never have to worry about bullying in school.

    I even got to ride the biggest monster truck in the world!!!

    http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g45963-d3697929-Reviews-Bullets_and_Burgers-Las_Vegas_Nevada.html

    Hopefully some strain of Darwinism will clear this kind of stuff up.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 2

  11. ernieyeball says:

    @PJ:..Why would anyone deny this kid her God given 2nd amendment rights?

    Because humans are smarter than god?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 3

  12. gVOR08 says:

    Contemplating all the fail behind this incident is painful.

    I’ve managed to crash racecars a couple times. We call them incidents, not accidents. Accident implies unanticipated, when a certain amount of it is expected. This should not have been described as “accidentally killed”. Whatever happened after they handed a nine year old a loaded automatic weapon was not an accident.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 2

  13. @C. Clavin:

    Hopefully some strain of Darwinism will clear this kind of stuff up.

    The girl, it should be noted, is still alive and eventually will be available to reproduce.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 12

  14. C. Clavin says:

    @Stormy Dragon:
    You think she’s going to be a gun enthusiast as she gets older?
    Maybe with a great therapist.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 3

  15. rudderpedals says:

    @C. Clavin:I get a kick out of the rating system. They can plan for at least one more five bulls-eye user review.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

  16. Mu says:

    Are they still handing out Darwin awards? Reminds me of this idiocy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4OE78spknk (In case you’re not familiar with guns, double fire on a revolver should have been impossible. But the massive recoil of the 500 S&W round forced the gun back into the shooters hand, and when she closed the hand again the second round got fired.)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  17. Pinky says:

    @Stormy Dragon: The girl isn’t at fault. The parents aren’t even completely at fault. The safety instructor who toggled the Uzi to automatic while in the hands of a 9-year-old girl is at fault.

    To repeat, the girl isn’t at fault!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 4

  18. C. Clavin says:

    @Pinky:
    Yeah….I really don’t think that’s what Stormy was saying.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  19. Rafer Janders says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    The girl, it should be noted, is still alive and eventually will be available to reproduce.

    The girl is not at fault here. Not at all. She’s nine years old, for god’s sake. She’s the victim.

    This is entirely the fault of her idiotic, irresponsible parents and that dangerous moron of an instructor.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 23 Thumb down 2

  20. michael reynolds says:

    @Pinky:

    You’re right, the girl is not at fault. A society that thinks it’s a good idea for idiots to own guns is at fault, along with the political whores and the amoral swine who make and sell guns.

    Once again, 100% of gun-related deaths have one thing in common: guns. One man dead, a girl traumatized, all so nitwits with absurd hero fantasies can play games. You know, if Dungeons and Dragons got people killed, we’d have outlawed it long ago. The gun cult is D&D for the not-very-bright.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 33 Thumb down 8

  21. Rafer Janders says:

    @Pinky:

    The parents aren’t even completely at fault.

    The parents kind of are. They drove her there, they signed her up for that activity, they signed a waiver. They stood around videotaping, for god’s sake, thinking it was cute to watch their little girl shoot an automatic weapon.

    Can’t believe we live in a country where mothers get arrested for letting theirs kids play alone in a playground but parents who hand a submachine gun to their children get hand-waved away with a “well, who could have known?”….

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 60 Thumb down 1

  22. Ben Wolf says:

    @Stormy Dragon: When I was a kid that’s how it worked: BB gun and then a .22 for your first firearm. The dumbest, most abusive parent wouldn’t have handed a submachine gun to a nine year-old kid.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 0

  23. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    This case is an improvement over the last similar case, where an 8-year-old boy who was allowed to fire an Uzi — and instead of shooting the instructor, shot himself.

    Absolutely the girl should not be held accountable. She was absolutely not to blame — but I doubt anyone will ever convince her of that. Of the responsible parties, one has already found his justice, and now the parents should be held responsible.

    Here’s a common-sense gun law we should all be able to get behind: no one under 16 allowed to fire a fully automatic weapon. We can quibble about the details of the age, and I’d suggest a “necessity” defense of, say, a child grabbing Daddy’s Uzi to fend off a kidnapper, but as others have said, gun education should be a gradual thing. Kids in single digits have NO business firing off automatic weapons, even if their idiot parents find an idiot instructor to go along with it.

    As far as that instructor… I don’t see much difference between him and those who choose “suicide by cop” or suicide by driving head-on into a truck. I don’t mind so much him removing himself from the gene pool, but he did it in such a way that left someone else dealing with the knowledge that they were part of another person’s death. And in this case, a child.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 21 Thumb down 3

  24. @Rafer Janders:

    I realizing she’s not at fault, but if Clavin’s “some strain of Darwinism” were to be the solution, she’s the one it would have to operate on, deserving or no.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 6

  25. David M says:

    A nine year old child with an Uzi seems like a fairly bad idea, but the full auto part takes the stupid factor to eleventy billion. A little humor and this would be run of the mill Onion story.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  26. PJ says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    Here’s a common-sense gun law we should all be able to get behind: no one under 16 allowed to fire a fully automatic weapon.

    The 2nd amendment do not deny those under the age of 16 the right to fire automatic weapons or any weapons for that matter. Why are you willing to deny them their 2nd amendment rights?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  27. Just Another Ex-Republican says:
  28. C. Clavin says:

    @Stormy Dragon:
    Right…the mutation…in this case a logical approach to weaponry as opposed to her ancestors idiocy….would happen in her off-spring.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4

  29. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @PJ: If that was an attempt at “gotcha,” it’s a pathetic failure. We already don’t allow minors to own guns, and limit their possession. Plus, there are very strict laws about automatic weapons. I think this is a case of the people who wrote the original laws didn’t think anyone would ever be stupid enough to put a fully automatic weapon into the hands of 8 or 9-year-olds, so they didn’t bother to address it.

    I normally object to laws designed to protect people from themselves. I make an exception for children, who need to be protected long enough to become adults and accept their freedoms.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 4

  30. J-Dub says:

    Maybe she’ll become an advocate for common sense gun laws. Or a meth-head, probably 50-50.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  31. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @J-Dub: In ten years or so, she’d be a good spokesperson for a law like I suggested. However, I hope like hell by that time, it’ll be irrelevant.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4

  32. PJ says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    We already don’t allow minors to own guns, and limit their possession.

    I didn’t say anything about owning guns, did I?

    I think this is a case of the people who wrote the original laws didn’t think anyone would ever be stupid enough to put a fully automatic weapon into the hands of 8 or 9-year-olds, so they didn’t bother to address it.

    So, you think we should be allowed to second guess what the people who wrote the 2nd amendment actually was thinking? Should we also be allowed to second guess their views on putting automatic or semi automatic weapons in the hands of adults? Hollow point bullets? 30 caliber magazine clips? After all, the state of the art back then were flintlock pistols and rifles…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 4

  33. Mu says:

    Actually, the law on automatic weapons isn’t any more strict than on regular guns. The only thing that you have to do is get a $200 tax stamp for the transfer, and the ATF makes you wait for it, right now about 9 months. Plus the prices are through the roof because they closed the registration list in 1986, meaning there’s no more freely transferable automatic weapons added to the list.
    So a $2000 M16 costs you close to $20,000 nowadays, and a minigun (think Predator) about $400,000.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2

  34. Matt says:

    Every single gun related forum I visit has threads FULL of people complaining about the stupidity of the “instructor”. Out of thousands of posts not a single gun owner thought that was a good idea. I have no idea why ANYONE would do such a thing.

    If you’re going to let a little kid shoot something like that then start her off with one bullet then maybe two. Putting a full mag in there was completely irresponsible.

    @Mu: More like +20k if you want a decent gun. The 20k m16 is a worn out junk.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

  35. Liberal Capitalist says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    At that age, you’re probably better off sticking to a bb-gun…

    No. You’ll shoot your eye out, kid.

    What? oh.

    … nevermind.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

  36. @C. Clavin:

    Right…the mutation…in this case a logical approach to weaponry as opposed to her ancestors idiocy….would happen in her off-spring.

    That’s not Darwinism! That’s Lamarckism!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3

  37. Liberal Capitalist says:

    BTW, for anyone not sure what a controlled situation might have been…

    Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSbc1bv5ReE

    That is an adult woman firing an Uzi.

    Notice the area from which she is shooting. There is a controlled environment, with screening on the sides.

    Notice how the instructor is nowhere near her side when she fires.

    Notice the first time on auto fire, how the gun pushes her back and she swings the gun slightly to the left.

    Notice how much the instructor needed to educate her on bracing for the shot, to actually allow a grown woman to handle a fully automatic weapon.

    Now just think how that would have been in the hands of a 9 year old child.

    Idiocy.

    I support hunters and hunting. I support the ownership of weapons that would be used in “normal” hunting opportunities.

    But to me it’s clear that the NRA and the folks that need to have playdates with their weapons in public places have clearly lost their way.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  38. Yolo Contendere says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    At that age, you’re probably better off sticking to a bb-gun, so they can learn firearm safety without using an actual firearm.

    I understand you’ll still shoot your eye out…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2

  39. Matt says:

    Also never stand to the side like that. Always be behind preferably behind the shoulder they are firing from.. ugh

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  40. Yolo Contendere says:

    @Liberal Capitalist: That’s what I get for not reading all the way down to the bottom of the thread before commenting…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2

  41. C. Clavin says:

    @Rafer Janders:
    Playgrounds don’t have much of a lobby…uzi’s do.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

  42. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @PJ: I didn’t say anything about owning guns, did I?

    Which is why I also mentioned “possessing,” you moron.

    As far as your other so-called point, then how about this:

    If the girl had the right to possess the gun, then she is responsible for what happened. If she did not have the right to possess the gun, then the responsibility for what happened falls on those who put the gun in her hands.

    The way the law works now, if you want to allow a prepubescent to fire a gun, you can — but you are legally liable for whatever happens. I’d like to see that changed so there’s a minimum age to firing fully automatic weapons.

    You’re arguing with me over that. Are you arguing in favor of allowing 8 and 9-year-olds to shoot fully automatic weapons?

    Let me anticipate your response. No, of course you’re not; you’re just calling me out on what you see as hypocrisy in my position (it’s not, but that’s what I believe you’ll argue), and saying that you’d rather have a broader law that not only addresses these circumstances but others, too. So you’ll sacrifice the chance to get a small thing that we both agree is good because I won’t cave on other matters.

    That about right?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7

  43. Liberal Capitalist says:

    @Yolo Contendere:

    @Liberal Capitalist: That’s what I get for not reading all the way down to the bottom of the thread before commenting…

    But it makes the point, doesn’t it?

    How did we get from that 1950’s mentality of not wanting to get a kid a BB gun… to giving a 9 year old an uzi?

    Hell, my parents knew well better than to give me the wrist rocket that I wanted.

    So:

    Parents that have no parenting skills.

    Police that can’t police their own actions.

    And folks on Fox News saying that we need Putin to “rule” the US for a few days and forget about civil liberties.

    Yeah, I don’t think that GOP tide will be happening in this midterm election. The wackadoos have forgotten that they are supposed to chill for a few months before the election happen. THEN after, they can deep-dive back into the stupid.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1

  44. PJ says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    So you’ll sacrifice the chance to get a small thing that we both agree is good because I won’t cave on other matters.

    I’m not sacrificing anything. You do understand that people agreeing or disagreeing in an OTB thread isn’t how laws are made or policies are changed?

    —-

    So, do you think the writers of the 2nd amendment anticipated automatic and semiautomatic weapons? Hollow point bullets? 30 caliber magazine clips?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

  45. Liberal Capitalist says:

    @PJ:

    So, do you think the writers of the 2nd amendment anticipated automatic and semiautomatic weapons? Hollow point bullets? 30 caliber magazine clips?

    No.

    But I , for one, believe that JOHN HANCOCK foretold the tendency of the internet CAPS LOCK RANT effect.

    He signed his name large to thumb his nose at England… kind the same thing now.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  46. Matt says:

    @Liberal Capitalist: My belief is that in the 1950s you wouldn’t of heard of the stupid parents like you do today. People seem to forget how much more interconnected the world is today then it was 70 years ago. I can do something in a remote area of Alaska and someone in the UK could know about it instantly. Try doing that with 1950s technology.

    Same reason people think that violent crime is climbing out of control. Because every little incident is tweeted, shown on youtube, and pounded to death by the 24/7 media cycle. BTW violent crime has been on a decline for decades.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  47. Just 'nutha' ig'rant cracker says:

    @ernieyeball: This particular set of humans clearly weren’t.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2

  48. Yolo Contendere says:

    @Liberal Capitalist: CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL! JOHN HANCOCK WAS A PLAYA!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

  49. Franklin says:

    Before the incident, I’m sure the parents were hoping to post that video on FB with some snide remark about how no libtard will trample their rights. I hope they’re happy.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 3

  50. anjin-san says:

    A very compelling argument as to why the fetishization of guns in America is a bad thing,

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 3

  51. de stijl says:

    At what point, and after what incident, do we get to the point where something fairly sensible (and popularly supported) like universal background checks and closing the gun show loophole become politically feasible? I know that 10-15 round magazine size restrictions are a bridge too far for even the most reasonable of those mythical “Responsible Gun Owners” we keep hearing about but a boy can hope, can’t he?

    Virginia Tech couldn’t do it and even Newtown where the victims were first graders couldn’t do it? I am beyond flummoxed. What exactly will it take? It obviously takes a hell of a lot more than the day by day ‘8 yo shoots his cousin accidentally after finding daddy’s “home protection” piece’, cuz those stories are so common they’ve become boring.

    If we had an American version of the Norwegian Utoya massacre today, right now, this morning, with a proportional body count would that do it? I seriously doubt it. It would be “lone wolf”, “It takes a good guy…”, “It’s too soon…”, “An armed society is a safe society…”, etc all over again.

    What will it take?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 4

  52. PJ says:

    @de stijl:

    If we had an American version of the Norwegian Utoya massacre today, right now, this morning, with a proportional body count would that do it?

    A strictly proportional body count would be 4,300…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  53. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @PJ: So, do you think the writers of the 2nd amendment anticipated automatic and semiautomatic weapons? Hollow point bullets? 30 caliber magazine clips?

    I think — and it’s historical fact — that the writers of the 2nd Amendment lived in a time where private citizens possessed military-grade weaponry.

    It’s also a historical fact that the writers of the 1st Amendment didn’t anticipate the democratization of mass media through the internet and the rise of scams like Scientology.

    It’s also a historical fact that the writers of the 5th Amendment didn’t anticipate the development of fingerprinting, blood tests, and DNA traces.

    And I think that you’ve proven that you’re not interested in this particular case except in advancing your own agenda.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 11

  54. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @de stijl: At what point, and after what incident, do we get to the point where something fairly sensible (and popularly supported) like universal background checks and closing the gun show loophole become politically feasible?

    And just what, oh one filled with righteous fury, would any of your laundry list of complaints have done to prevent this particular incident?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 11

  55. @PJ:

    Hollow point bullets?

    Not using hollow point bullets is irresponsible. Hollow points make the bullets slow down faster, greatly reducing the risk of them going through the target and hitting bystanders. This is why nearly every police department in the country uses them.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2

  56. ernieyeball says:

    @Just ‘nutha’ ig’rant cracker:..This particular set of humans clearly weren’t.

    Well, we really do not know how smart god is. Do we.
    Since god controls everything…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2

  57. KM says:

    @PJ: So, do you think the writers of the 2nd amendment anticipated automatic and semiautomatic weapons? Hollow point bullets? 30 caliber magazine clips?

    @Jenos:I think — and it’s historical fact — that the writers of the 2nd Amendment lived in a time where private citizens possessed military-grade weaponry.

    What the writers of the 2nd Amendment didn’t anticipate was the cultural shift in imagery from “tool” to “symbol of freedumb”. For them, there was a very practical reason for including this language in the foundation document of their new nation: they had no army, they were a bunch of scattered settlers over the coast of a whole continent with limited communication (and thus backup) and lets face it- faith in formal government was not at an all time high. Weaponry was a necessary tool of survival back then but there were still cultural restrictions on where and when to use them (open carry was not a thing you did in the town square). You had to surrender weapon to the sheriff if you wanted to go into town in some places – something that survived well into the 20th century in Appalachia (see Sid Hatfield and the Battle of Matewan in 1920).

    Fast forward to where this piece of technology has gained deep political significance far above its actual natural utility. For god sake, we have to construct special places to go to use the things, otherwise your average user would never have ever fired one! As a tool in modern society, their necessary use has fallen dramatically to the point where a vast majority of people will never need one. Yet their symbolism is stronger then ever. It is the chosen symbol of freedom in our democracy (instead of the more logical voting ballot) by a subset who are obsessed with patriotism and what it all means. They locked up in cabinets as collectors items. They’re displayed proudly by idiots walking down the street as male enhancement pieces. They’re used as physical symbols of “MY RIGHTS!!” and “SFTU LIBRULS!!”

    The Founders would frankly have been confused as hell and most likely disappointed in us. They meant to give the populace a practical means to survive and protect themselves – not act like besotted fools in an abusive relationship while slowly destroying themselves. They were not meant to be a focus of political worship and social obsession.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 2

  58. de stijl says:

    @PJ:

    A strictly proportional body count would be 4,300…

    Would that body count actually move us off direction we’re in now in regards to how we deal with firearms? I’m interested in folk’s opinion on this: would an American Utoya (i.e, ~4000 dead) really change gun laws or would it change terrorism laws?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

  59. Rob in CT says:

    Can’t believe we live in a country where mothers get arrested for letting theirs kids play alone in a playground but parents who hand a submachine gun to their children get hand-waved away with a “well, who could have known?”….

    This sums things up rather well, for me.

    When Michael talks hyperbolically about “gun cultists” and fetishization, I often demur. But this is a perfect encapsulation of his argument. And by “this” I don’t just mean this specific incident. I mean the existence of a business called “Bullet’s & Burgers,” the content of their (now-down) website, and the fact that it’s one of the most popular tourist attractions in Las Vegas.

    This is a sickness. Many own guns and do not have the sickness, but the sickness is out there.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

  60. de stijl says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    And just what, oh one filled with righteous fury, would any of your laundry list of complaints have done to prevent this particular incident?

    I love that you confused my cynical defeat at the situation with righteous fury. Frankly, it’s super adorable.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

  61. stonetools says:

    You’re right, the girl is not at fault. A society that thinks it’s a good idea for idiots to own guns is at fault, along with the political whores and the amoral swine who make and sell guns.

    BINGO. Let’s be blunt. Isn’t handing a child an Uzi the end product of thinking that ANYONE should be allowed to own and carry any kind of firearm anywhere, anyplace, any time? This is very much the thinking of the gun cultists. The gun instructor wasn’t so much stupid as displaying the full effects of delusional gun cultist “thinking”.

    BTW, if you subscribe to the #GUNFAIL thread on Twitter, you will see many, many examples of idiotic gun misuse. This incident is the tip of the iceberg.

    I carry to protect the family, and/or shoot myself in the family jewels. Guess which one I ACTUALLY did. #GunFAIL http://on.adn.com/1pF6H8M

    Shannyn Moore‏@shannynmoore·20 hrs
    #Alaska man shoots self at state fair. http://www.adn.com/article/20140826/man-accidentally-shoots-himself-alaska-state-fair … #GunFAIL

    David Waldman‏@KagroX·Aug 25
    Kids accidentally shot this weekend: 3yo in Chicago, 7yo in Milton, FL, 7yo in Hayden, ID. #GunFAIL

    And so on.

    By the way, there are actually people defending the idea of kids shooting automatic weapons and the NRA is tweeting “7 ways for kids to have fun with guns”.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  62. stonetools says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    The way the law works now, if you want to allow a prepubescent to fire a gun, you can — but you are legally liable for whatever happens. I’d like to see that changed so there’s a minimum age to firing fully automatic weapons.

    Heh, you do understand that many of your allies would oppose that as the beginning of a slippery slope to the government confiscating all guns from everyone, right? Has the NRA deployed the “Let’s not politicize this isolated tragedy” meme yet?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  63. Rafer Janders says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    I think — and it’s historical fact — that the writers of the 2nd Amendment lived in a time where private citizens possessed military-grade weaponry.

    Well, yes and no.

    Private citizens possessed rifles and muskets, as did soldiers. Private citizens didn’t possess grenades or mines or cannons or mortars.

    And by this point, weaponry has developed to such an extent that if we wanted to allow private citizens to possess military-grade weaponry, we’d have to allow them to carry around fully-automatic M-60 machine guns, BARS, chain guns, RPGs, rocket launchers, mortars, etc. Basicaly the kind of stuff that a Libyan, Iraqi or Syrian militia is equipped with.

    And I don’t know about the rest of you, but I don’t really want to see that rolling down my street anytime soon….

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  64. Loviatar says:

    @de stijl:

    The actual body count doesn’t matter. What you need is a body count centered on the DC/Virginia/Wall Street areas.It could be as little as one if it is the right child, but a number in the double digits would make the policy change faster. Take out a few Senators/Congressmen/Wall Street tycoons kids and see how quickly we get stricter gun laws.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  65. C. Clavin says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    I think — and it’s historical fact — that the writers of the 2nd Amendment lived in a time where private citizens possessed military-grade weaponry.

    And before that man posessed……fire. Just barely more primitive than 18th century weaponry.
    The term “well-regulated militia” meant something specific in the 18th century…and it was not what it has been bastardized to today. You have to completely ignore the context of history to reach the so-called Right’s (and the gun lobby that owns them) understanding of the 2nd.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  66. C. Clavin says:

    @Rafer Janders:
    In the hands of 9-year olds if the NRA has it’s way..

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2

  67. JohnMcC says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: Well, on the subject of who believes that a lower age limit should be imposed on (at least some) firearms, there’s this: http://www.crickett.com. And this: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/08/27/nra_tweets_children_shooting_range_story.html

    And on the subject of the founder’s amending the original constitution to allow Americans to possess “military grade weaponry”, it’s worth mentioning that they were talking about Brown Bess muskets. These were ‘military grade’ for the simple reason that they were essentially worthless for any purpose other than standing shoulder to shoulder with several hundred of your closest friends hoping that the impossibly heavy slug you were about to launch through an un-rifled tube would actually poke a large hole in someone doing the same but wearing different clothes. Useless on a farm compared to a shotgun. Useless for hunting compared to the ‘Kentucky’ or ‘Pennsylvania’ rifles.

    In fact, those fellows were not technically ‘allowed’ to own those muskets they were REQUIRED to own them if they were members of a ‘well regulated militia’. Same as (I think is still true) a Swiss Army reservist is REQUIRED to keep his NATO military weapon in his home.

    But these are not the things that matter in the present political disputes to which you endlessly rise, like a bass in a small pond rising endlessly to the same lure and being caught-and-released time after time after time.

    And having fed the troll, I drop my head and slink away.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  68. de stijl says:

    @de stijl:

    I am cynical and I feel defeated. I should feel that way because I have been defeated politically.

    The NRA has won. Utterly. Completely.

    In the course of my life the NRA has gone from basement gun safety courses for the Boy Scouts and the 4H, to bargain-basement John Birch Society conspiracy theories about gun-grabbing lefties. Replace fluoridation with FEMA Camps and Agenda 21 then mix with a seriously unhealthy fixation on AR-15 knock-offs and, howdy Wayne LaPierre!

    They have been wildly, extraordinarily successful.

    Is there any point when the pendulum begins to swing back from Peak Bushmaster?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

  69. al-Ameda says:

    Chalk up another one, another set of victims of our national fetish with gun ownership and gun use. It is sad to say but, given the strength of this fetish, and given that we’re a nation of 315 million people and over 300 million guns, this kind of thing is bound to happen periodically.

    Blame? Much to go around. Certainly the parents and the instructor, and secondarily the NRA and their collective shills – Wayne LaPierre et al – should (but will not) feel remorse.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  70. Andre Kenji says:

    @JohnMcC:

    Same as (I think is still true) a Swiss Army reservist is REQUIRED to keep his NATO military weapon in his home

    Yes. Considering the popularity of the Swiss system of government among Illuminists, I imagine that the Swiss Army was the model for the Second Amendment.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

  71. Kathy Butler says:

    Never underestimate the stupidity of parents or the people who want to make money so bad they allow a kid to use an uzi at their firing range. And as far as gun control, Forget it. If 20 murdered 1st graders didn’t wake us up, well then we just don’t give s h**.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  72. Kathy Butler says:

    @al-Ameda: So true Al, We’re toast in this country. All you can hope is you aren’t caught inthe sross fire of one of these gun toting nuts.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

  73. JohnMcC says:

    @Andre Kenji: Thank you for the honor of a reply! It would be a wonderful thing for me to have a thread to discus the history of the 2d Amendment and the interpretations thereof over time. It is alas impossible; imagine the trolls!

    Briefly, there had been several ‘rebellions’ during the period of the old Articles of Confederation. Lot of contributing causes – class, the economy, post-war adjustments. Same as every chaotic situation leads to; you can look up: Shay’s rebellion, Whisky rebellion and follow the links.

    The biggest question for the ‘establishment’ during those crisis years was would the militias stand against a local mob that often included neighbors and family (as these things always do)? It turned out that they did (almost all the time). So the phrase “well regulated militia” was interpreted through the lens of the historical moment it was written in for most of our history – as pertaining to state militias instead of persons who have no ‘state reason’ for needing one.

    Whoops! Did I just say that?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  74. stonetools says:

    Swiss gun laws:

    Each soldier is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm SIG SG 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home or (as of 2010) in the local armoury (Zeughaus). Up until October 2007, ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm) was issued as well, which was sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use had taken place.[4] The ammunition was intended for use while travelling to the army barracks in case of invasion.

    In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers shall stop and that all previously issued ammo shall be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received. Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still store ammunition at home today.[5]

    When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment.[citation needed] However, keeping the weapon after end of service requires a license.

    To carry a loaded firearm in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is a member of the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a Waffentragbewilligung (gun carrying permit), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security.[14] It is, however, quite common to see a person serving military service to be en route with his rifle, albeit unloaded

    This is the sensible Swiss version of having a “well regulated militia” as distinct from the distorted, self-indulgent, crackpot NRA version of what could be a rational national self defense strategy.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  75. C. Clavin says:

    @JohnMcC:
    If you get a chance you should read Bunker Hill: A City, a Siege, a Revolution by Nathaniel Philbrick.
    It has really in depth descriptions of the time and the place. And the descriptions of the militia preparations and operations and various battles and skirmishes is superb.
    You cannot read this book and look at the NRA’s version of the 2nd without laughing.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  76. de stijl says:

    @Loviatar:

    Take out a few Senators/Congressmen/Wall Street tycoons kids and see how quickly we get stricter gun laws.

    Kinda like when Reagan was suddenly all for gun control after the Black Panthers started practicing what would now be called “open carry”?

    Open bet: will there be a successful SYG defense of a black shooter and a white victim in the next ten years?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

  77. stonetools says:

    From an LGM comment thread:

    The Burgers and Bullets Adventure website is down now (“This account has been suspended”), but a cached version is still available. They definitely play up the idea that this is all about the fun toys:

    “Our 50 Cal. selections includes the Barrett Sniper Rifle, the Browning BMG .50 Cal (‘the deuce’), and the Desert Eagle. We even have the actual firearms used in several Hollywood hits including The Terminator and Rambo II.”

    Testimonials from satisfied customers reinforce the idea:

    “It was our best day out, it was like Christmas day for the boys and their toys (the machine guns were soo good ).”

    “Our group fired many weapons during the day such as the MP5/40, the M16, the M60 and RPD but the best was the Barrett 50 Cal sniper rifle, I was was just ridiculous, such an amazing weapon, a massive kick and super loud bang and shock wave – OMG!! Once the shooting fun was over we headed to the Last Stop Restaurant for probably the greatest burger we have ever tasted washed down with a cool beer, it just topped off a brilliant day.”

    “We stopped off at the hoover dam which was great to see then on to bullets and burgers, on the way the driver Bud was great, a man of very good knowledge he told us some great stories that we could take home with us. When we arrived we got taken to the outdoor range and the fun began. I booked the gold so I got to shoot an Uzi then AK-47 then MP5/40 then the belt fed machine gun and then the best of all the 50 CAL sniper rifle it was excellent its a must for everyone any age.”

    “If you like machine guns and want to shoot any number of them for good old fashioned fun and kicks; go for the Gold package, it gives you the most variety.”

    The problem here is that the gun cultists play up the idea that gunsr’fun, and that they have a right to their “fun”. However,guns are never supposed to be “fun”-they’re killing machines, and we should never forget that. Gun cultists are always about trying to persuade us to forget that.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  78. Pinky says:

    @JohnMcC: That doesn’t sound right. Shay’s Rebellion took place during the era of the Articles of Confederation, but the Whiskey Rebellion afterwards. And the main context of the time was the people did take up arms in support of their neighbors and against the government in the 1770’s.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  79. Pinky says:

    @Rafer Janders: The parents are kind of at fault, but mostly not. If I had a child, I’d take him to the gun range to learn the basics of gun safety and put a little fear of guns into him. Granted, that’s not exactly what these parents were probably doing. But it wouldn’t occur to me that my child’s instructor would hand him a weapon that he could not reasonably be expected to control. I’m not going to judge the parents’ sense of responsibility based on this incident, but I can judge the instructor’s.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 6

  80. al-Ameda says:

    @Pinky:

    The parents are kind of at fault, but mostly not.

    I disagree, I would say, emphatically, mostly “yes.”
    It was their meager judgment that resulted in that 9 year old child being taken to the gun range to use that Uzi.

    There are many people in America who now believe that you cannot inculcate people into the gun culture at too young an age.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  81. anjin-san says:

    @ Pinky

    But it wouldn’t occur to me that my child’s instructor would hand him a weapon that he could not reasonably be expected to control.

    The parents don’t have a responsibility to do some due diligence and be sure ahead of time what they are getting their 9 year old child into? To talk to the instructor and ask “what exactly is going to happen here’ before they proceeded?

    No, they were more worried about getting some video. You would think rational people would scream WTF??? the moment they saw the uzi and bring the whole thing to a full stop.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  82. KM says:

    @Pinky:

    The parents are kind of at fault, but mostly not.

    But it wouldn’t occur to me that my child’s instructor would hand him a weapon that he could not reasonably be expected to control.

    Sorry, but if the parents are standing there filming while the instructor picks it up, holds it and explains (as shown in the video) with intent to hand over to the child and don’t do a damn thing to stop it, they are as frigging culpable as can be. They have eyes (physical and electronic) on the child and can see what’s happening. Even if it didn’t occur to them beforehand (which I highly doubt considering the circumstances) it should have occurred to them right then and there, before it got into that girl’s hands. What they should have done was have the instructor present everything to them ahead of time so they could personally approve – these aren’t toys, they are weapons, damnit!!

    The rock bottom deal is they are complete failures as parents since their actions/inactions caused their 9yr old daughters hands to be stained in blood. They caused her to take a life in their carelessness and thoughtlessness. No excuse, none – remember, it could have been her too.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1

  83. Rafer Janders says:

    @Pinky:

    If I had a child, I’d take him to the gun range to learn the basics of gun safety and put a little fear of guns into him. Granted, that’s not exactly what these parents were probably doing.

    Yes, that is in no way what these parents were doing. This had nothing to do with gun “safety” or “education” and everything to do with “guns are cool and fun!!!”

    But it wouldn’t occur to me that my child’s instructor would hand him a weapon that he could not reasonably be expected to control.

    It would damn sure occur to me, the same as if I saw anyone, no matter how ostensibly qualified, handing my nine-year old daughter a chainsaw or a rattlesnake or a machete or a vial full of chemicals or a pot of boiling tar or a stick of dynamite or the keys to a Ferrari. If someone tried to hand my child A LIVE SUBMACHINE GUN I’d put a stop to it immediately, immediately, not stand around like some brainless yokel and videotape the whole thing.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  84. Tyrell says:

    @Stormy Dragon: BB gun? When I was 9 we were only allowed to play with cap pistols, with sdult supervision. Our local high school did have a rifle team, but they dropped it before I got there: interest had declined over the years.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  85. C. Clavin says:

    @Pinky:

    The parents are kind of at fault, but mostly not.

    Sorry…they are the parents of a 9 year old.
    She is their complete responsibility.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

  86. Rafer Janders says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    It would damn sure occur to me, the same as if I saw anyone, no matter how ostensibly qualified, handing my nine-year old daughter a chainsaw or a rattlesnake or a machete or a vial full of chemicals or a pot of boiling tar or a stick of dynamite or the keys to a Ferrari. If someone tried to hand my child A LIVE SUBMACHINE GUN I’d put a stop to it immediately, immediately, not stand around like some brainless yokel and videotape the whole thing.

    Adding on to what I said above, I’m convinced that half the people sort of waving off parental responsibility here would go absolutely insane if the incident had actually involved letting a nine-year old girl operate a chainsaw or handle a rattlesnake or drive a Ferrari.

    But let the dangerous instrument be a gun, and suddenly there’s a lot of foot-shuffling and well, how could they have known, and who would have expected a fifty-pound weight nine-year old to loe control of a submachine-gun? This in a society that routinely arrests parents who let their nine-year old children sit alone in the backseat car for five minutes while the parents are in a store runnning errands…

    We allow behavior involving guns that we’d never, ever allow with any other sort of dangerous machine or tool.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1

  87. gVOR08 says:

    @anjin-san:

    You would think rational people would scream WTF???

    You would, but what has this to do with anyone actually present at the incident? @Pinky:

    The parents are kind of at fault, but mostly not. If I had a child, I’d take him to the gun range to learn the basics of gun safety and put a little fear of guns into him. Granted, that’s not exactly what these parents were probably doing.

    No kidding that’s not exactly what these parents were doing. Apparently they paid the instructor to let the 9 year old kid shoot a submachine gun. That’s what this range sells, not the “basics of gun safety”. How the flock are they not responsible?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2

  88. rudderpedals says:

    We’ve not descended into stupid rhetorical nitpicking over assault weapons and semi/full automatic, thanks to the firearm of choice. That’s a Good Thing.

    Oh and the owner of the place said in an interview that the 9 year old was very mature and this was on her “bucket list”.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2

  89. KM says:

    @rudderpedals :

    Oh and the owner of the place said in an interview that the 9 year old was very mature and this was on her “bucket list”.

    WTF? What kind of 9 year old has a bucket list? Let me rephrase this: what kind of 9 year old has a bucket list with this as an item?

    The smell of bullshit from the owner is overwhelming…..

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0

  90. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @rudderpedals: We’ve not descended into stupid rhetorical nitpicking over assault weapons and semi/full automatic, thanks to the firearm of choice. That’s a Good Thing.

    No, but we do have one mouth-breather ranting about “universal background checks” and “gun show loopholes” (a complete non sequitur) as if they’d have done anything about this incident.

    I know, I know… baby steps.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7

  91. gVOR08 says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: Wiki says, “The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner.” Is this correct? If it is correct, how is “gun show loophole” a non sequitur? OK, these steps would not directly prevent some idiot from hiring another idiot to help his 9 year old fire an Uzi, but aside from FREEDUM, what real harm would they do?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  92. pylon says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: Not a non sequiter at all. If you have admitted, which you have, that some restrictions on who can owne or use firearms is appropriate and constitutional, then pointing out that other restrictions might be appropriate is hardly off topic.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  93. Matt says:

    @gVOR08: Key word “PRIVATE” meaning it’s not a gun show loophole it’s a intentional design concept that allows for private sales of guns between two people without involving the government.

    Most gun shows don’t allow for private sales because of many business related reasons. The optics situation is just another reason on the pile. I’m not aware of any gun shows that actually allow private sales on the floor but I”m sure if you look long enough you’ll find someone.

    Even in Texas the gun shows here don’t allow private sales on the floor as a matter of policy.

    If you think this is a loophole then you are asking for government to do the impossible. Regulating private sales is about impossible and I really don’t like the idea of giving police a blank check to setup stings along that concept.

    The reality is if a criminal gets a gun via the “loophole” they are going to get that gun regardless of any laws you add to the books as they are already breaking the law before you even get to any “loophole” laws. So it’ll just be the lawful gun owners who are inconvenienced.

    Grandpa died and you inherited his gun collection? Well that’s going to have to go through a FFL and you’re going to need to spend 60 bucks per gun to get them back! That’s one of the scenarios you’re asking for. Don’t worry though the police will be real nice as they confisc I mean take possession of your grandpa’s guns. I’m sure the police will take real good care of the antique weapons too. Guess we’ll have to pay police officers to inspect the house of any recent dead to ensure the law is being followed?

    BTW the “study” about buying online to avoid background checks is absolute bullshit. There isn’t a legitimate dealer online who will ship anything non C n R (or percussion cap related) to a non FFL. It’s just not going to happen no matter how much they want to pretend. The “study” focused on the potential for illegal private sales. None were actually cited in the “study” cited in the wikipedia article. The “study” just looked up the WTB (Want To Buy) side of things and noted that some people wanted a private deal and then assumed it was because they wanted to avoid a background check. BTW it’s illegal for a non FFL to ship a firearm across state lines to a non FFL. It’s also illegal for a non FFL to ship a handgun in state to another non FFL.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  94. Matt says:

    Seriously though you’re not going to run a gun sales business online for long if you don’t follow the law to the absolute letter.

    Hell some of the “loophole” closing laws actually technically make it illegal for you to hand a friend a gun at the gun range to shoot.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  95. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @gVOR08: The “gun show loophole” is BS. Gun sales at gun shows are subject to the exact same restrictions as gun sales anywhere else. If you’re a dealer, then you follow the same laws if you sold them at your shop, your home, or in the parking lot of your local McDonald’s. Likewise, if you’re making a private sale, then the very same rules apply.

    The difference is that at a gun show, private sellers can find willing buyers a lot more readily. Period. Only difference.

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  96. al-Ameda says:

    The reality is that as long as there is strong cult of gun ownership, and infatuation with gun usage there is not much we can do about the occasional mass shooting or “what the hell were the parents thinking” incident that is the subject of this thread. No minds are changed by any of this.

    it’s a public health problem, and it is one that we, collectively, do not want to deal with.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

  97. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @al-Ameda: it’s a public health problem, and it is one that we, collectively, do not want to deal with.

    You’re absolutely right. Let’s pull the funding from Ebola research, vaccinations, AIDS research, stem-cell research, Alzheimer’s, diabetes, Parkinson’s, obesity, and whatnot and focus all our attention on getting public health officials to work on overturning the 2nd Amendment.

    I think I know why the push is on to treat gun rights as a “health” issue. You keep losing in courts, in legislatures, in elections, everywhere you’ve tried before. But you won on ObamaCare, and you’ll have a new legion of bureaucrats (who know which party will keep them in their cushy jobs), backed by the now weaponized IRS, who you think you can recruit into this cause.

    Might I point out that whatever might be done by health bureaucrats can be undone by the legislatures, courts, and voting publics that have been telling you no, over and over and over again?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

  98. Kathy says:

    A collective health problem? Maybe. But at the very least this incident shows we need to start requiring a licence before people can have kids.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  99. ernieyeball says:

    Guns and cars are exactly the same. That is why we let 9 year olds drive cars….wait a minute…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  100. al-Ameda says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: Well hey, the Supreme Court recently ruled that corporations are “persons” and that Voting Rights need not be protected anymore so, yes, things can change. As for your inference that ACA was all about creating more Health Care Bureaucrats, well I know that it’s hard for conservatives to accept the fact that ACA is working despite the refusal of many Republican dominated states to implement the law, but whatever helps you get through the day is fine with me.

    Also you do realize that a few years ago Republicans wrote into a bill that the CDC was prohibited from researching the public health implications of widespread gun availability and usage in our country. Republicans Decided that that was a little too close for comfort.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  101. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @al-Ameda: Well hey, the Supreme Court recently ruled that corporations are “persons” and that Voting Rights need not be protected anymore…

    Wrong, and wrong. Also, irrelevant.

    As for your inference that ACA was all about creating more Health Care Bureaucrats

    You may have inferred that meaning from what I said, but I did not say it, or even imply it. More specifically, your saying that it was “all about” says that it was the sole purpose of the Act. Didn’t say it, didn’t mean it, certainly don’t believe it. But pretending otherwise makes it easier, doesn’t it? Straw men are so convenient.

    , well I know that it’s hard for conservatives to accept the fact that ACA is working despite the refusal of many Republican dominated states to implement the law, but whatever helps you get through the day is fine with me.

    Also you do realize that a few years ago Republicans wrote into a bill that the CDC was prohibited from researching the public health implications of widespread gun availability and usage in our country. Republicans Decided that that was a little too close for comfort.

    Or, alternately (and more accurately), saw how the anti-gun crowd was looking at using CDC in their crusade to rewrite the Constitution without bothering with the nuisance of following the accepted, legal method and told the Centers for Disease Control to focus their efforts on actual diseases, and not get involved in political matters.

    The information is out there, for anyone to collect; why distract the Centers for Disease Control from their primary purpose of controlling diseases?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4

  102. Barry says:

    @Rafer Janders: “Can’t believe we live in a country where mothers get arrested for letting theirs kids play alone in a playground but parents who hand a submachine gun to their children get hand-waved away with a “well, who could have known?”….”

    That (black) woman has been charged with felony child endangerment; these (white) parents will be charged with nada.

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  103. Barry says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: Wow! For once we all agree.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  104. Matt says:

    @Kathy: Sadly I almost agree with the concept of requiring a license.

    @ernieyeball: I drove heavy machinery at 9 on the farm but that was because my family knew I as capable of handling it. I highly doubt they would of allowed me to fire an uzi with a fully mag.

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  105. ernieyeball says:

    @Matt: I wasn’t much older when I drove a tractor on my cousins farm while visiting in the summer. Shot glass bottle targets with a .22 rifle too! What fun!

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  106. Matt says:

    @ernieyeball: Yeah mostly tractors :)

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