That’s Quite a Defense
Only the best attorneys.
Trump’s lawyer, John Lauro, on Meet the Press on Sunday:
“A technical violation of the Constitution is not a violation of criminal law,” Lauro contended, saying it was “just plain wrong” to suggest that Trump had pressed Pence to break the law.
“And to say that is contrary to decades of legal statutes,” he continued.
That is, well, something. I think I understand the verbal gymnastics that he is trying to engage in here, which is to say that for a crime to have been committed a specific criminal statute must be violated, and so violating the Constitution, per se, is not a criminal act.
But, of course, it is a crime to obstruct a federal proceeding, as Trump attempted to do as it pertained to the constitutional process of counting the electoral votes. It is a crime to deny citizens their votes. And it is a crime to conspire to engage in those unlawful activities. These are the crimes he is being accused of, not some vague notion of violating the Constitution.
If the best his defense can muster is that, well, he only technically violated the Constitution, then he is going to have a rough go in court, especially in the context of the federal statutes in question. It is striking that Lauro isn’t doubling down on the free speech defense, although that one really doesn’t fit Pence’s accusations, which is what Lauro is addressing.
Lauro seems to know he put his foot in his mouth.
In a follow-up email to NBC News, Lauro said he “never said that President Trump committed a technical violation.”
I will note, for the sake of accuracy, that he did not say directly that Trump committed a technical violation of the constitution, but he used that phrase (at ~2:03) to describe what Pence has alleged as he tried to pretzel logic his way to suggesting that Pence never accused Trump of a criminal act.
Said Lauro, “And one thing that Mr. Pence has never said is that he thought President Trump was acting criminally.” The fact that Pence did not use that exact term strikes me as insanely irrelevant. Trump’s former Vice President is stating, rather directly, that Trump tried to get him to violate the US Constitution (in contravention of his oath of office, I would note). In doing so he committed a crime, in my view, which fits the indictment as issued. A jury, of course, will ultimately decide his guilt.
To undercut further what Lauro is saying, Trump is now claiming that Mike Pence–“Liddle” Mike Pence–is delusional.
This is quite good:
plus.thebulwark.com/p/will-trump-social-media-behavior-cost-him-court
The more I listen to this guy, Lauro, the more idiotic he sounds.
I heard him telling Dana Bash that there was peaceful transition of power.
Seriously…
To date I have not heard one defense of Trump, against these indictments, that holds water.
If I were Trump I’d be scared.
The DOJ is 100% in prosecuting J6 cases.
If Trump were a different person, he would realize that he has exactly one chance to beat the Federal raps: Exact a public promise from Tim Scott that he will grant Trump a full pardon if elected, then drop out and tell all his followers to vote for Scott. It would make Scott the second black President in US history and instantly erase all the Federal cases against Trump.
@MarkedMan: I don’t know why, but I feel like the ‘right’ way for this to shake out is for TFG to be pardoned by a freshly-reelected Biden, after some sort of confession/apology to the Nation from TFG. Scott does nothing for me.
@MarkedMan:
Of course trump will need to trust that Scott is a better human being and more loyal to trump than trump would be to Scott. And, you would need to believe that the voters wouldn’t be revolted over such a deal. There have been several governors that cut deals with their Lt Gov’s to resign and then be appointed to an open senate seat, where one or both were defeated in the following election. For trump, such a deal results in too much risk.
He could also beg Biden for a pardon, but won’t.
@Long Time Listener: Somehow I think a few years of “Let’s Go Brandon” might end up as a factor in the President’s decision to sully his own historic legacy the way Gerald Ford did.
@MarkedMan:
Scott would become president by decree?
@Sleeping Dog: Yeah I’m like, it’s a cracker jack plan except that Scott would have to get himself elected to the presidency first. Which…
Lol.
Lauro is quite right that a technical violation of the Constitution without an enforcing statute isn’t illegal. Which is maybe why he’s not charged with violating the Constitution but with violating specific, listed statutes.
We’ll have to wait and see what Trump’s lawyers offer in court as a legal defense. But so far everything they talk about is court of public opinion stuff, irrelevant in court. This may actually represent a strategy of jury nullification or of stall, win election, and self pardon. And really, what else can he do?
But it seems to me mostly just flailing. Seems to me that if Trump is willing to pay Lauro for saying stupid stuff on TV, Lauro is probably happy to say stupid stuff on TV.
@Long Time Listener:
We have already had the Watergate pardon, the Iran Contra pardons, Trump’s pardons of his lackeys.
All pardons do is encourage/reward more such conduct. I would be outraged, I would hope mine would be a common reaction.
Sounds like Qualified Immunity to me.
Same was argued to protect the police in Fields vs. City of Philadelphia and Turner vs. Driver at the cost of Police right to privacy.
@Paul L.: LOL, no. Try again. Police officers are largely granted qualified immunity in situations where force is used incorrectly, because circumstances under which force may be applied can be difficult to ascertain. (Notably, even this is controversial.)
Trump was under no such duress during his attempt to subvert the will of the people, lie, cheat, and try to steal the election.
@Jen:
LOL The Philadelphia police had training on the right to record police in public.
@DK: Admittedly, “instantly” is doing a lot of work there but I really do think he would be a shoo in if he had Trump’s complete support (never gonna happen) and Trump could limit himself to rallying the MAGAs to vote for Scott and not constantly try to swing the attention back to himself (never gonna happen squared).
Scott comes across a reasonable, personable guy. He espouses all the Republican views but in a calm “I’m just a common sense kind of guy”. In addition to the Trump supporters he would get many of the other Republicans or former Republicans. Sure he will lose some number of Reps and Independents due to his race or to the diehards who feel if they can’t have their Donnie they will stay home, but I think that will be more than offset that feel Joe Biden is too old or that will stay home because Biden isn’t left wing enough.
Sure this is just complete speculation on my part but since there is zero chance Trump would ever drop out AND endorse someone else, I’m free to plant my flag on this hill.
@Jen:
Qualified Immunity, a concept created through judicial fiat, is one of the most abused things in law enforcement and is a huge blocker to policing reform. Sadly, even though this is an area where there’s crossover between multiple political groups, attempts to undo it either at the State or the Federal Level continue to fizzle out. And so far the Supreme Court has not signaled any interest in reigning things in.
For more details on the abomination that is QI see:
https://eji.org/issues/qualified-immunity/
https://www.naacpldf.org/qualified-immunity-myths-and-dangers/
Witness: The defendant jammed his gun against my face and demanded all the money in the til. He then shot me in the shoulder and ran out of the bank.
Defense attorney: Your honor, I move for a dismissal of all charges, seeing as the witness did not claim my client committed an illegal act.
Judge (addressing the defendant): Sir, I suggest you fire your lawyer and get a new one.
@MarkedMan:
Nope. Too much of the MAGA base is racist and would never vote for Scott. They’d stay home.
@charontwo:
Agreed.
I’d accept Biden commuting the Cheeto’s sentence from prison to house arrest, provided he first spends at least 365 days locked up first. And even under house arrest, he’d have the same restrictions on visitors, phone calls, connectivity, etc. that eh had in prison.
It’s way, way, way, past time to start making wealthy and powerful criminals pay for their crimes.
Now, on a more realistic note, assuming several Benito convictions and a Biden reelection, it’s very likely El Cheeto will spend the time between January 2025 to May-June 2027 at home exhausting all appeals, until he declares he’ll run for 2028, should he still be alive then.
@MarkedMan:
He has a calm mild affect, but he remains a hyperreligious antiabortion hardliner. He would sign off on all the extreme stuff.
@Matt Bernius: Yep! I know. I understand qualified immunity, and the similar use of sovereign immunity. It’s Paul’s application of this to Trump’s legal fiasco that I find…implausible/silly.
It’s almost a Rule now:
If you are in service to Trump you will eventually, maybe inevitably, be compromised and diminished, your reputation ruined.
There are a lucky few who realize this is in time to get out, do the right thing, and save themselves from the rot and stench – Cassidy Hutchinson comes to mind, but so many do not.
@charontwo:
As many have observed, if a failed coup is left unpunished, it’s practice. I still remember where I was when I heard on the news about Nixon’s pardon. Ford and the horse he rode in on.
Mike Lindell told Steve Bannon that if Trump is indicted once more, he’ll receive more votes than there are people in the U.S.
I wonder how he’ll manage to swing that?
@EddieInCA:
You could be right and I’m not confident enough to really argue. But it would be much better for the country if that was the experiment we were actually going to run, rather than this other one.
@charontwo:
Yep, and that’s why I would never vote for him. But his calm and measured demeanor would work wonders with the people who don’t really pay attention to policy, i.e. 80+% of the electorate.
@al Ameda: “Hubris! Thy name is… thinking you are the one to finally ride the Trump Shit Demon and come away smelling like a rose!”
@CSK:
There were reports that Lindell is broke and selling off his manufacturing equipment. But yesterday I saw him in an add for My Pillow 2.0. I would assume he’s now buying his stuff off shore. Seems like I saw a My Slippers add with him in it a couple weeks ago.
@gVOR10:
That could well be. I’d never heard of either Lindell or his pillows before he became a Trump superfan.
@CSK:
I’d heard a bit here and there online about a My Pillow, and a My Pillow Guy prior to the Cheeto era, but paid little attention to either. That was also the time when everyone and their pet dog had a direct to consumer new mattress and bedclothes line, or razors, or eyewear, etc. About half of that was advertised by Mike Duncan in his Revolutions podcast.
Also, I think we’ve talked about late night infomercial products. They work, but are never as useful or convenient as they claim. So, some expensive revolutionary new pillow? Who gives a damn.
@MarkedMan: Interesting analysis. I’m not sure that even if he wanted to, Trump could get his base to turn out in big enough numbers to elect his preffered candidates — that theory didn’t play so well in the midterms, even with relatively-normal Trump-endorsed Republicans.
If Trump could indeed rally his personality cult for someone besides himself, I do think this hypothetical Republican who keep Trump’s fans while not scaring away swing voters would be more competitive than Trump himself. Not necessarily sure I’d agree with “shoe-in” in this polarized era, as the Democratic base still fired up post-Dobbs and the electoral blue wall is back up, Arizona trending blue, and Georgia trending purple. Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan are just starting to look as Dem-friendly as they’ve ever been, or more.
Even with Biden’s unpopularity baked in, Democratic candidates are now outperforming 2020 results by ten points, the stuff of Mitch McConnell’s nightmares. Could a Trump-backed generic-ish Republican cool that? I tend to believe that in the near future, Republicans will need charismatic rockstar candidates to juice turnout or it’s gonna be tough for them until Democratic rage wears off.
Anyway, it’s an interesting thought experiment till we get some data from the 2024 and 2026 elections.
@DK:
I agree with you that Trump has little effect when he tries to get his base out to vote for someone else. That’s why the public pledge to pardon Trump is so important. It isn’t a vote for Scott, but rather a vote to save their boy. And for the rest of the electorate I’m sure Scott can do a pretty good version of, “I do this so we can unite and move on, and put these tumultuous years behind us, focusing on a future and healing.”
@MarkedMan:
That’s a rub. Such a public pledge would make Scott just another extension of Trump’s lawless assault on the American republic, it would “instantly” (hehe) brand him as a MAGA extremist. I don’t think Scott could both pledge to shield Trump from accountability for the things that have driven anti-Trump swing voters away and still appeal to those voters as a break from Trumpism.
In fairness, I’m not sure any candidate could pull of selling that kind of blatant contradiction, and Scott specifically does not have the charm or charisma prerequisite to even try. In my opinion. Maybe Slick Willie in his prime (maaaaaaybe) could two-step like this, but Tim Scott is no Bill Clinton.
@MarkedMan: I don’t think his base necessarily WANTS unification and healing. That’s why they love him. He is pure chaos, rage, revenge, and smiting thine enemies, Old Testament-style. That’s what they want. The kumbaya ticket is not something they’ll turn out for.
One thing seemingly lost in the pardon Benito debate, is the one existing and one expected state charges against him. Presidential pardons don’t cover state convictions. You need a state governor to issue them. Granted this may happen in Georgia, but I have a hard time seeing it happen in New York.
Special Counsel responds to Trump:
“PDF“
No, just no. He might get house arrest (Marred a Lago) but I suspect he will have his sentence commuted under the condition he disappears from public life. One single peep and he goes to Colorado Super Max.
Which means he will be in Colorado Super Max.
@Paul L.: A smart person would stfu. You ain’t smart. In fact, you are as smart as a box of rocks.
@charontwo:
And big tough Feds wet their collective pants and start menstruating because Trump can share his opinion and evidence about the case with public. The Feds have no such restrictions and can leak at their leisure.
@OzarkHillbilly:
Let me check the OTB comment policy about insulting other commenters.
@Jax:
one hundred percent agree. The MAGAs will vote for him because of the pardons. The “healing” is for the non-MAGAS.
(I’m spending an awful lot of time defending this flip idea I had while drinking a cup of coffee this morning…)
@Kathy: NY is unlikely to end in jail time. And If the President pardons Trump, the pressure on the Georgia Governor to do the same will be overwhelming.
@Paul L.:
WTH is this? YOU might want to check YOUR language and tone. This is misogynistic and, frankly, weird phrasing.
You also seem to misunderstand what an accused person should and should not do, but I’m not going to bother with that. Get your act together and behave like an adult if you want to converse with the grown-ups.
@Jen:
The point of trolling is to get reactions and distract. A bit pointless in a basically dead thread, though.
@Long Time Listener: Strongly disagree. The best case for the nation is clear and obvious evidence that failed coups are punished harshly and he dies in a medium security prison. When have there been strong personal consequences of senior political leadership breaking the law since Nixon? If it is not punished, it is acceptable.
@Paul L.:
It’s not an insult if validated based on observation of previous comments.
You seem to parrot the wildest MAGA talking points. A box of rocks would likely have more awareness.