Vice President-Elect Pence Visits Broadway, Gets A Post-Performance Message
Mike Pence's night at the theater included a message from the cast. Good for them.
Vice-President-Elect Mike Pence was in New York City yesterday for transition team meetings and other business and ended up going out with his family to see the high-demand Broadway musical ‘Hamilton.’ Not surprisingly, the evening didn’t go off without incident:
“Hamilton,” the hit Broadway musical about colonial rebels shaping the future of an unformed country, took an even more political turn at the end of its performance on Friday night.
With Vice President-elect Mike Pence attending the show, the cast used the opportunity to make a statement emphasizing the need for the new administration of President-elect Donald J. Trump, a Republican, to work on behalf of all Americans.
It was a deeply felt and altogether rare appeal from the stage of a Broadway show — and it drew a surprisingly sharp rebuke from Mr. Trump on Saturday morning. The president-elect tweeted that the “Hamilton” cast had “harassed” Mr. Pence by making the statement and had been “very rude.”
“Apologize!” Mr. Trump wrote at the end of one of two tweets on the matter.
As the play ended, the actor who played Aaron Burr, Brandon Victor Dixon, acknowledged that Mr. Pence was in the audience, thanked him for attending and added, “We hope you will hear us out.”
“We, sir — we — are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents, or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights,” he said. “We truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us.”
The audience broke out in enthusiastic applause and cheers.
Mr. Pence was leaving as Mr. Dixon began to read the statement from the stage. A show spokesman said that Mr. Pence stood in the hallway outside the entrance to the auditorium and heard the full remarks.
Mr. Pence made no comment and was photographed smiling as he left the theater.
Mr. Pence had been seated in the center orchestra section, prominently visible to audience members. He appeared engaged throughout the show and applauded after most of its numbers, audience members near him said.
When Mr. Pence entered the Richard Rodgers Theater in Manhattan, he was greeted with a mix of clapping and booing, according to theatergoers who posted on Twitter.
The audience gave a standing ovation during the play at the line, “Immigrants, we get the job done,” one theatergoer, Christy Colburn, wrote on Twitter.
She added: “Crowd went NUTS at King George’s lines ‘when people say they hate you’ & ‘do you know how hard it is to lead?’ He had to stop the song.”
The statement that Mr. Dixon read was written by the show’s creator, Lin-Manuel Miranda, its director, Thomas Kail, and the lead producer, Jeffrey Seller, with input from cast members, Mr. Seller said.
“We had to ask ourselves, how do we cope with this?” Mr. Seller said. “Our cast could barely go on stage the day after the election. The election was painful and crushing to all of us here. We all struggled with what was the appropriate and respectful and proper response. We are honored that Mr. Pence attended the show, and we had to use this opportunity to express our feelings.”
Mr. Seller said that there was some discussion about whether it was appropriate to inject a political statement into the night, and that those involved decided to wait until the end of the performance. He said no cast members had skipped the performance to protest Mr. Pence’s appearance.
Mr. Trump has not seen “Hamilton” or inquired about tickets, Mr. Seller said, adding that the president-elect would be “welcomed to attend.”
The show’s politics — particularly its celebration of diversity and of the critical role immigrants played in the American Revolution and the early republic — stand in sharp contrast to some of the harsh language about immigrants that Mr. Trump used during the campaign and his focus on appealing to white men with statements about returning America to “the good old days.”
One of the most acclaimed Broadway musicals in years, “Hamilton” has been especially celebrated by liberals for its resonant, provocative portrayal of America as a nation of immigrants — particularly with its casting of Hispanic or black actors in the roles of Alexander Hamilton, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and other founding fathers.
Here’s the video of what happened:
Donald Trump, of course, had his own reaction:
Our wonderful future V.P. Mike Pence was harassed last night at the theater by the cast of Hamilton, cameras blazing.This should not happen!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 19, 2016
The Theater must always be a safe and special place.The cast of Hamilton was very rude last night to a very good man, Mike Pence. Apologize!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 19, 2016
To which the actor who plays Aaron Burr in the musical, who is the one who read the statement in the video above, responded:
@realDonaldTrump conversation is not harassment sir. And I appreciate @mike_pence for stopping to listen.
— Brandon Victor Dixon (@BrandonVDixon) November 19, 2016
Depending on where you sit on the political spectrum, the reaction to this has been entirely predictable. For Trump supporters and even many on the right who ostensibly didn’t support Trump in this election, what happened here was ‘rude’ or ‘outrageous’ and disrespectful toward the Vice-President-Elect and his family. To many on the left, speaking out to a member of the incoming Administration is the highest form of patriotism and the cast was right to do so when they had the opportunity. Of course, were the roles reversed and it was a Democratic politician getting lectured in public like this, it’s likely that the reaction from each side of the political spectrum would likewise be reversed. From my perspective, it seems clear that the cast here didn’t do anything disrespectful, weren’t rude to Pence or his family, and certainly didn’t do anything outrageous. Had they interrupted the performance to call Pence out, it would perhaps be a difference story but the fact that they waited until the end of the performance demonstrates that they wanted Pence to see the show and the message it conveys. The statement itself was calm, respectful, and not personally insulting. Additionally, it was reported elsewhere that a cast member asked the audience to refrain from booing Pence as had happened when Pence arrived shortly before the start of the performance. As I said, if the cast had interrupted the performance or put a spotlight on Pence and his family to single them out, then I would possibly buy into the idea that they were being in any way “rude.” Instead, what we have here is a respectful statement to an incoming Vice-President from people who have obvious disagreements with him and the President-Elect. This is America at it’s best, and the criticism is entirely unwarranted.
In talking about this incident, it’s also worth noting two other important points. First, although Hamilton is a Broadway musical meant as entertainment, it also carries with it explicitly political messages about issues that lead back to the founding of the United States and the role of immigrants in the country. That’s one reason why the writer, director, and producers of the show consciously chose to cast minority actors to play the role of men such as Alexander Hamilton, Aaron Burr, and Thomas Jefferson. Like much art, the play is meant to speak to contemporary issues as much as it is meant to be about the nation’s first Secretary of the Treasury. Given this, it isn’t surprising that the cast would speak out when a politician representing a ticket that seemingly supports policies that run counter to the nation’s long-run openness to immigrants is in the cast. Secondly, it’s worth noting that the actor currently playing the lead role in the musical, along with many members of the cast no doubt, is a gay man who has spoken out about LBGT issues many times in the past. Pence, on the other hand, is a religious conservative who continues to oppose marriage equality notwithstanding the Supreme Court’s decision in Obergefell and who has in the past advocated for so-called “gay conversion therapy,” which advocates the use of electro-shock therapy and other bizarre means to “cure” people of the “disease” of homosexuality. While this wasn’t mentioned in the statement read from the stage, it was likely in the mind of the people on that stage given that this is an issue that got a lot of play on the left during the election. Given that, it’s hardly surprising that they would not let the opportunity to speak to a person like Pence pass without saying something. On a final note, it’s particularly hypocritical for Donald Trump to criticize anyone for making statements to people they disagree with. Throughout his campaign for President, Trump made derogatory, insulting, and veiled with the implication of violence comments and insults toward critics, protesters at his rallies, and the news media as a whole. For him to criticize the cast for an entirely respectful statement such as this as particularly audacious.
As I said, had the cast interrupted the performance or otherwise singled Pence and his family out then it arguably would have been rude or inappropriate. They did not do that, they did not insult Pence or Trump, and they were not confrontational. That strikes me as being American free speech at its best.
Correction: Lin-Manuel Miranda is straight, although the current lead in the play, Javier Muñoz is gay.
I was going to post on this but you’ve covered my thoughts on this pretty well.
My first inclination, formed by reaction on Twitter, was that what the cast did was wholly inappropriate. But, based on a more informed understanding of the events and reflection on the show itself, I’ve changed my view.
My starting point, which I still believe, is that it is, generally speaking, rude, at best, for performers to attack audience members who are peacefully attending a show. That’s true even of a politician. Even a Vice President-Elect has a right to a night off and, moreover, audience members ought not have their own politics insulted by proxy at an entertainment event.
But this is different.
First, as noted in the OP, “Hamilton” is explicitly political. It’s not only a show about the founding of the current American political regime but also a message about the fact that the ideals expressed in the Constitution were aspirational and exclusionary in 1787. The whole point of the show is to highlight racial, gender, and sexual diversity.
Second, to the extent performers ought deviate from the script to deliver a political message, this is almost a model of doing so respectfully. The short statement, crafted by the show’s creative genius, was effusively deferential—twice calling Pence “sir” and thanking him for his attendance—and extremely gentle.
@Steven L. Taylor:
I stand corrected. WIll update the post.
Agree completely with post. I would add that booing is close to being the gentlest form of political protest.Hard to see what else the audience should do to make it’s political point ( although I’m not a fan of booing, TBH).
I wonder if Trump appreciates the irony of his “safe space” comment?
(I’m guessing that he doesn’t.)
So a politician who has regularly proclaimed himself not bound by “political correctness” as an excuse for saying insulting things to others believes that others should apologize for saying insulting things to someone close to him.
Who said irony was dead?
Pence was treated very gently, much more gently than he treats others.
Trump and Pence need to settle in and expect much more of this. Many, many more people wanted a different president – and particularly to the extent those two hang out in large cities, they are going to get a dose of that reality. I hope it continues to be polite and I hope it continues to really get under Trump’s skin. Because that’s just amusing as hell.
I like the headline at Vox,
And thanks to both you, Doug, and James for recognizing this as legitimate.
The man who advises other men to assert control over women by “grabbing them by the pussy” is outraged over some booing. America 2016, folks.
This is what I find astonishing: Trump has been elected to the presidency of the United States. That m means that everyone in the entire world is going to have an opinion of him, and probably at any time two-thirds of them are going to be negative. That’s got nothing to do with Trump — it’s what comes with the most powerful office in the world.
How can you run for president and not understand this?
And specific to Trump: How can you spend eight years attacking the current president as a foreign-born traitor and then be surprised and hurt when someone on the other side uses the same rights to criticize you?
I think the cast was extremely deferential to the office and the person of the Vice President. I am more on the side of the people booing Pence.
After running the most divisive campaign in recent history, and getting the electoral college but not the popular vote, Trump and Pence are going to have to get used to this, unless they take steps to unite the country. Or, they can enjoy their nights out somewhere in rural America, where people like them. Go to rodeos or monster truck rallies or something.
Taken from the Instapundit blog, written by a law professor at Univ. Of Tenn::
“For the record, Alexander Hamilton was an immigration hawk who endorsed the Alien and Sedition Acts and wanted to deport troublemakers.”
ANOTHER UPDATE: History: “The audience had just witnessed the reenacted shooting to death of the great American, Alexander Hamilton. The actor delivering the lecture was Brandon Victor Dixon, who plays Aaron Burr, the man who killed Hamilton. Years ago, in a theater, a President of the United States was shot by a politically overheated actor. I understand hustling Mike Pence out of that place.”
From the comments: “Being a dick to people who paid to see you is #HowYouGotTrump.”
Plus: “Other than that, how was the play, Mr. Pence?”
And: “It’s funny because the left right now is all ‘I don’t feel safe!’, but they are once they begin blocking the roads, turning theatre nights into verbal attacks, and rushing the speakers on college campuses.”
Also: “The cast are not scared of Pence. If they were, they wouldn’t insult him. It takes no bravery for you to mock someone that all your social peers think is terrible. It takes no bravery for you to claim the moral high ground over someone you and the media paint as a backwards reject from the 1950s or earlier.
@James Joyner: @Doug Mataconis: This was craven; people who think it took courage to speak out against someone the media wants us to hate need to readjust their definitions of courage.”
Trump has more in common with the strongman leader of a banana republic than what a president should be. He’s petty and self-aggrandizing and can’t tolerate the idea of any kind of opposition.
There can be no honeymoon for this despot. And if a guy who is a heartbeat away from the presidency believes that he can silence his constituents when he is out in public, then he should stay home and he should not have run for office in the first place.
@Pch101: He was trolling. As he always does. And still he gets the reaction he wants. When will people learn?
@john430: I read that Glen Reynolds at Instapundit was put on leave or something at his university for saying that cops should run over protestors.And yet a couple of years ago he was all into dissing cops himself. The man has gone off the deep end. The point is that people have a right to voice their opinions..if Trump or Reynolds don’t like it…too bad. Maybe Donald will do something about that pesky first amendment once he takes office and this sort of thing won’t happen anymore.
@john430: And btw, while we are on the subject of Hamilton, according to Federalist papers #68 he thought that the electoral college had a duty to stop a demagogue, even if it was counter to the popular vote or public opinion. My guess is if Hamilton were around today he would say they should not be voting for Trump on Dec. 19.
I am against rudeness, and I am sorry that people are rude to Mr. Pence. However, this is a trivial offense against good taste. Trump’s response is grossly wrong. The power inherent in the presidency is very great, and even slight misuse can lead to grave injustices. We need to keep an eye on this guy.
People, and not just you James, but newspaper headlines and story text, bloggers, pundits and politicos keep using that word “attack”, and so it has lost all meaning. It’s now more like “Wolf! Wolf!” in that it’s an exaggerated term used to inflame a reaction rather than inform factually.
The entirety of the speech by the actor, quoted below, can in no way reasonably be interpreted as an attack. Perhaps at worst, it could be called veiled criticism, or passive aggressive complaining, and even those are stretches to describe a respectable, polite, articulate, nuanced, and understated but impassioned plea, used to not only admonish the crowd for their boo-ing, but to implore the VP-Elect to listen and reflect on the thoughts and emotions from the citizens and their immigrant friends and family who have much to fear based on the VP-Elects legislative and political history.
Perhaps the VP-Elect and his supporters feel it was unfair for the cast member, who has the stage as it were, the spotlight of attention, and therefore the power of from speaking from this pedestal. But that’s feeling of intimidation is shared by the persons that the cast member represents, fearful of the power of the Trump administration who will be able to do so mostly unchecked, in the future. Perhaps now they may understand why some people in some environments may wish for a “safe space”….
Transcript of the supposed “attack”:
Is this really the most important thing that happened? How about the settlement of the Trump U lawsuit? Or that Ivanka attended the meeting with the Japanese Prime Minister? Kris Kobach talking about a registry of Muslism? Trump claiming he kept Ford from moving production to Mexico and saved jobs when there was no plan to eliminate those jobs in the first place?
Must we chase every Trump click bait tweet? Especially to the exclusion of things that actually matter?
Trump is demanding an apology from the cast of Hamilton.
I saw this on the blog Hulabaloo:, and I think the writer says it very well.
I’m afraid I have to agree. Booing is very rude. What you’re supposed to do is chant “lock him up!” and scream “Trump that bitch!” It’s also fine to call him “nasty” to his face. This booing, however, is disrespectful.
Personally, I say when the American people and the Obama family get a personal apology from the Trump for years of birtherism, the cast of Hamilton may consider whether they feel an apology is in order.
BTW, how about an apology for the people you screwed who were misguided enough to enroll at Trump U.
But Trump doesn’t do apologies, they are for the little people.
@Kari Q: Touche, I almost feel guilty about posting. I actually saw a news report saying how “intriguing” it was that Ivanka Trump was at the meeting with the Japanese prime minister. My guess is she is acting as Trump’s babysitter. I’m sure that this will play well in Japan, where protocol is a big deal. My guess is that this will be seen as a form of an insult to PM Abe. We have 12 year old as a president-elect.
Vice President-elect Pence, we welcome you and we truly thank you for joining us here at Hamilton: An American Musical, we really do. We, sir, we are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us — our planet, our children, our parents — or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights, sir. But we truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us. All of us.
According to some people, issuing that statement is comparable to John Wilkes Booth killing a president.
If you were looking for some low-information voting, then that’s where you’ll find it.
@Kari Q: while all the things you mention would be worthy of significant consideration in normal times, I honestly think that the radical division of the country and the failure of the incoming administration to do anything to unite America is a greater issue.
We have a president elect who lost the popular vote, who ran the most divisive campaign in modern history, who has apparently decided to govern from the far right side of his minority coalition, and who is demanding fealty from the country as a whole. Protests are decried as unfair and claims are made that they are orchestrated by the media. The VP is the recipient of a polite comment he doesn’t agree with, and it is called an attack. And, horror of horrors, there is booing.
The incoming administration is going to be trying to claim a popular mandate, along with a legal election, and they will attempt to use that popular mandate to stifle dissent, and enact their agenda from the far right side of their far right minority coalition. Covering the acts of dissent and the spectacularly poor response is important to immediately destroy the claims of a popular mandate.
Do elected officials want to be tied to the policies and positions of an unpopular and embattled president? Generally no. And that’s what makes it important.
@Pch101: I wouldn’t call that low-information. Willfully dishonest, though…
Also, while we are on a fluffy thread, here is one of my favorite recordings of Sharon Jones, and one that seems entirely relevant to today.
She died yesterday at age 60.
These guys have lied to themselves so much that they are incapable of knowing the difference between truth and fiction.
@Gustopher: I’d never heard of her until I saw her opening for Paul Weller a few years back. What a performer, and what a human being.
Today she is dead of a horrible cancer and Donald Trump is president and still somehow people believe in God…
When I was at the ’96 Olympic games, Bill Clinton showed up at the gymnastics venue. When his picture was showed on the overhead, people booed. So I’m disinclined to listen to a lecture about how people should respect the dignity of the office.
I also wonder how the supposed “suck it up” Right feels about the President elect literally calling for a safe space.
Re: your Sharon Jones link.
Thank you for that. I hadn’t known about her. Now I do. I love that I learn at this site.
The message presumes that the incoming administration is a threat to pretty much everyone and everything, which is just obnoxious. And the bit about hoping Pence was inspired by the show presumes that, without that inspiration, he’s hopeless. Also, making this statement public— rather than, say, sending Pence a note from the cast privately— seems more about posturing for the cameras than communication. There’s no dialog possible here. It’s not as if Pence could respond or do anything but politely hear them out. This is the kind of national discussion the left loves: the kind where they talk and you listen
It’s the “to the exclusion of” that I object to more than anything. I understand people want to talk about this, but there is so much going on here that is not normal, and worthy of comment.
The Trumpkins who are outraged by this would be cheering if the performance of a play or musical had been interrupted by an actor who gave a speech decrying Obama, or Clinton.
@Pch101: I took this from the NYT as a possible first step for you in recovering from Trump Derangement Syndrome…Make it your mantra.
I WILL avoid demonizing people who don’t agree with me about this election, recognizing that it’s as wrong to stereotype Trump supporters as anybody else. I will avoid Hitler metaphors, recognizing that they stop conversations and rarely persuade. I’ll remind myself that no side has a monopoly on truth and that many Trump supporters are good people who want the best for the country. The left already has gotten into trouble for condescending to working-class people, and insulting all Trump supporters as racists simply magnifies that problem.
Suck it up, buttercup!
Oh please…get up off the fainting couch…to equate an actor giving a message to a politician to actually shooting a politician is ridiculous…some people really need to grow up…also, it’s far more outrageous to support torturing gay people with stupid ideas like “conversion therapy” than it is to tell a politician to respect the rights of all people…
Umm, not obnoxious at all when we have an incoming vice president who was very hostile to the LGBT community when he was the governor of Indiana…there’s no reason to believe that he’s changed his views…
@stonetools: Gee, I wonder what they thought about JFK and his numerous affairs while married to Jackie? Or Gary Hart’s with his floozies? Or Jesse Jackson’s?
Or John Edwards?
Let’s not forget Bill Clinton- President and Sexual Predator Extraordinaire.
@john430: Let’s not forget Bill Clinton- President and Sexual Predator Extraordinaire.
Guess the difference is that Trump admitted and bragged about being a sexual predator. Pretty good bet that when someone is proud of something like this that they did something more. Rape? Pretty believable in Trump’s case.
That’s true–he isn’t a threat to straight white people or rich people.
There sort of was a plan to move that production to Mexico, and Ford does in fact remain committed to moving all of its small car (translated: small margin) production there.
What gets left out of Trump’s tale is that this situation was avoided due to negotiations which took place in 2011, as a result of which the State of OH essentially paid Ford a $128 million bribe to keep the production there.
This is why Fordist type manufacturing (essentially low skilled workers performing a repetitive, pre-engineered task on an assembly line) is not viable here. It can truthfully be performed by just about any marginally skilled worker and it can be done anywhere in the world.
What I’m finding amusing is the #BoycottHamilton thing.
As if the vast majority of those ranting about it could afford tickets (pretty much $1,000 per seat, minimum) in the first place. This whole “movement” is essentially one gigantic fit of pique.
“Intriguing” is actually appropriate in this case; first definition for intrigue is “the secret planning of something illicit or detrimental to someone.” What kinda of clearance does she have? I thought they officially denied asking for top secret clearance for the kids and a staffer got fired in the kerfuffle. What level do you need to be to meet a world leader and sit in on meetings? Given that she has no official or legal reason to be there, what the hell kind of justification are they giving? Not up to speed on the legalities of it all but isn’t this veering into sketchy legal-land?
This should be followed up on incessantly, as should inquiries into how the various Depts and Pence are handling their emails. Don’t want to repeat mistakes, dontcha know. Can’t have 20+ Congressional inquiries into email servers or accusations of rules not applying to everyone on Drumpf’s time……
Oh FFS, have you all forgotten just how Ben Carson became a darling of the right? By getting up at a prayer breakfast attended by the President and making a speech clearly aimed at criticizing President Obama. All the right wingers were so happy that he “stuck it to him” especially in a forum where Obama couldn’t respond. Bunch of whiny little babies.
@HarvardLaw92: Hey, I got mine for only $450. Nine months in advance, long after the original cast has gone, and because I got in on the first day of the American Express pre-sale…
Looking forward to March!
@HarvardLaw92: Nearly as stupid as their TrumpCup protest of Starbucks which seems to consist of them going into Starbucks and spending money! Devious geniuses aren’t they?
Funny, I didn’t realize that Mike Pence was incapable of issuing a response if he chose to.
Perhaps he’s too busy fleeing from John Wilkes Booth to make a statement that might convince us that he isn’t a nutjob who has an unhealthy level of interest in the personal lives of gay men.
Ours were provided by the firm, so I honestly have no idea what they cost, but it would be well worth it even at the current ask and then some, IMO. We thoroughly enjoyed the show. Hope you do as well!
The one that sticks out in my mind is their buying Colin Kaepernick jerseys (and putting more money in his pocket in the process)
so they could burn them …
They really showed him 🙄 , but then again, they aren’t known for being the brightest bulbs on Broadway …
Of course they aren’t ALL racists, no more than they’re all misogynists or bigots.
They did, however, have seemingly little problem voting for someone who is undeniably racist, misogynistic and bigoted, so no, they don’t get some sort of magical pass predicated on good intentions. They have to own the consequences of what they have set into motion.
Impact > intent. Always …
@Senyordave: Yeah, and I hear that Hillary promised Bill he could “vett” the interns.
Given that the statement was made right after the show, when the cast came out for the very tradition applause and thanking the audience, if Pence was already leaving, wasn’t he the one really being rude?
Disgusting how little regard he has for the performers. Disgusting and rude.
Their statement was quite respectful, but even if it had been over the top disrespectful, if you can’t stand to be booed, maybe politics isn’t the right place for you. Professional athletes know this, I’d be very surprised if politicians didn’t have similarly thick skin.
Having said that, I wonder if Pence was even minutely bothered in any case; he was a governor, this can’t be the first time he’s run across people who disagreed with him. For that matter, I doubt Trump was bothered by it either – it won’t be the first time for him either. More likely its just an opportunity of keeping alive the divisiveness that got Trump elected. Healing divisions is not in the game plan.
#TrumpCup and #BoycottHamilton come not in protest of anything meaningful but as childish acts of pique because their Dear Leader isn’t getting the love they think he should. In terms they should understand, “Quit dissing me when I’m trying to rub my victory in your face!!”
We saw this during the Bush years – hell, it’s where the ” ‘Merica, F^ck Yeah” attitude first got to shine on the (inter)national stage. Where the question “Why do you hate America” was first asked to shut down an opponent, inanities like Freedom Fries and mandatory flag pins existed for some reason, and protests were unAmerican / letting terrorists win. For a group that claims they voted for him because they felt they weren’t being listened to, it’s becoming increasingly obvious why that was. They honestly think hearing “Trump” makes liberals cry like its a magic spell or something and they want rivers of tears. It seems they just wanted to be the ones acting arrogant for a change; they’ve got no problems being smug trolls when it’s them trolling their enemies.
I sincerely hope every Trump voter who went with him because of insipid economic
promiseslies looks around and hangs their head in shame. This crap is on you.
I suppose. However, the corollary is that voting for a politician who has say voted for war is personally endorsing war, voting for a politician who supports Wall Street is personally endorsing Wall Street financial shenanigans and so on. Which lends itself to the argument of those who voted for third parties that voting for either of the two main candidates is taking on the worst of what those two candidates have done over the years. I’m not sure that’s a particularly useful way of looking at voting – especially since I doubt there’s a single major (or perhaps even minor) politician who hasn’t done some regretful things (for that matter, its also true for most of us in our lives).
I take the approach that its a lot more nuanced than that – sometimes we vote against the worst of a politician, sometimes we vote for what we hope they will accomplish. Most people who voted for Clinton did so hoping her better qualities would dominate, and I suppose the same is true for most Trump voters.
In the case of Trump I’m not really sure what those qualities might be, but as I’ve been mistaken about many things in the past (you can’t study physics without realizing how often we’re mistaken even about things we feel certain about), its quite possible I’m wrong about Trump. In any case, if voting for a politician means endorsing their worst qualities then I suspect most people would never vote at all, since its hard to find one without a few major failings.
Clinton of course would make an orders of magnitude better President than Trump in my opinion. But that’s because I think the best of what she offers is better than the best of what Trump offers; the worst of what she offers (increased tensions with Russia and a tendency to like military adventures) is no better than the worst possibility of what Trump offers – the worst case for both is the same, nuclear annihilation. Where they differ is in their visions of what a positive America would be.
Anyone who supports Trump has forever surrendered any right to talk about sexual misconduct by any politician.
The way I phrased it was indeed sloppy. I should have said he claimed to save jobs which were never in danger of being eliminated in the first place.. The main point is, he’s claiming credit for something he didn’t do, and far too many media outlets simply reported it as fact.
And in other news, at the end of their game Sunday the New England Patriots lectured the in stands outgoing President Obama on the economy and foreign policy while he politely listened and then extolled the virtues of free speech…………….not. There was no word on whether Nancy Pelosi was going to attend this weekends Nascar event where rumors of a drivers tutorial on bankrupt healthcare insurers was scheduled.
a href=”#comment-2142917″>Kari Q: I don’t see why I should forfeit…Clinton IS a predator and Hillary is his enabler.
@HarvardLaw92: Well, on the other side of the coin,,, why did you vote for Hillary who is a sexual pervert’s enabler, a liar and a crook? She is also against women given her rabid defense and slurs against women who complained about Bill. Did I also mention she is policy-challenged? You went shopping for a Cadillac and came home with a clunker.
Sadly, the 2nd worst night for a political protest at the theater for a Republican since a fellow named Lincoln was in the audience. – On the other hand, a night at the theater is meant to be entertaining and to be singled out like this had to be quite surprising. It did also prove just how divisive this incoming administration is with so many extreme persons being named to positions and so many White nationalists now emboldened to engage in hate crimes against minorities – Normally, a protest of this type would not be appropriate, however this theater cast is attempting to send up another warning flag to this administration not to rule in an extremist manner, embolden hate crimes, ruin our economy and possibly get this country involved in another major war abroad. This administration like no other continues to threaten peace and civil order by only generating such a strong reaction against it’s White nationalist message that so many find so offensive.
Our flawed electoral college system has elected this objectionable regime, which is in contrast to the popular vote for the much more moderate Hillary Clinton. On the other hand, George Wallace once proved that he could stoke a racist force to win in blue collar places like Michigan before, proving that not as much social progress has taken place in the country.
Somehow peace and civil order need to return to our society. Yet, the election of Donald Trump seems like a racist reaction by some Whites against the election of our first Black president. That is deeply sad there.
@Robert in SF: My initial understanding, based on the firestorm on Twitter, was that something much more hostile happened. I agree that this statement was far short of an attack. It was a mild admonition and expression of fear.
@john430: You should forfeit because you supported a sexual predator as President. The hypocrites on the right have a shocking lack of self awareness.
@john430: Hillary Clinton is not perfect, but she is far better than Trump. In every sense of the word. The fact that Trump supporters can not see that says a lot about them.
Ah, another example of progressive “dialogue” — which translates to “I will lecture you, and you will listen.” One would think that an actor would understand the difference between a dialogue and a monologue, but maybe that’s a lost art.
An appropriate response from Mr. Pence would be to ask for a refund for his tickets.
And is it now fair game to call out and lecture public figures at any opportunity, even when they’re “off the clock” and conducting private business? Because if that’s now on the table, then let the fun begin.
@HarvardLaw92: I’m trying my best to start a #boycotttheten movement – you burn all your $10 bills in protest of Hamilton. I have a feeling it just might take off!
I heard, read or saw nothing wrong with this end of the show, respectful shout out. Which basically what it was. A shout out.
Governor Pence certainly did enough in Indiana to warrant the questioning of his intent while VP. If VP Pence would like to give a response to this, he certainly has many avenues to do so.
It is our right as citizens of the United States to question our leaders. At every step.
I suppose, in the same way that anyone who supports Clinton has forever surrendered any right to talk about voting for war or endorsing military adventures in other countries (such as Libya) …
Trump is awful, Clinton is much better. But if supporting either one of them means supporting the worst of what either has done, then you’re basically saying the only morally defensible vote is third party. Its a common argument among those who voted third party. Purity is great and all, but not practical.
@Jenos The Deplorable: Yeah, they should have waited until Trump’s first State of the Union address to jump up and call him a liar.
You guys cheered that bullshit when it happened to Obama, now you’re whining about the cast of Hamilton not giving Pence a safe space? Bugger off.
@Jenos The Deplorable:
Coming from a verbose, vacuous rightsplainer like you, that’s just precious.
@Jenos The Deplorable:
Would you like some salve? You seem to have gotten sand in your vagina.
@Jenos The Deplorable:
That’s been fair game for a long time (people booing politicians is not new – as in, its been around since at least Roman times).
I’d suggest that if Pence is such a delicate flower that booing puts him off, then he needs a new profession. I’d further suggest that he probably doesn’t care, nor does Trump, though of course they’re quite willing to play it for political gain.
Do you really have such a low opinion of Pence that you think he’s bothered by being booed in public? I’ve got no use for him at all, but I still think he’s made of sterner stuff than that.
Because the Drama Queen in Chief deliberately slanted it to make you think that way. First impressions matter, even after facts are introduced they color our perception. He deliberately created a narrative of being unjustly attacked because he can’t stand even second-hand criticism. He flat out lied and his followers whipped up a whirlwind over a breeze.
Now think about how you’re going to perceive things for the next 4 years through the TrumpLens if he’s allowed to Tweet as POTUS. Think about how much damage he’ll cause, the negativity it will fester, and how much this country will suffer because that man needs to insult like he needs to breathe. Weep for the respectability of your party and the system in general. It’s only going to get worse.
@KM: Fact checking Trump will become very laborious and, after awhile, boring and little read. He’ll be able to throw out anything he wants, the RW media will amplify it, and there will be very little kickback from the supposedly liberal MSM.
And, of course, because Twitter is so well known as a haven of measured and respectful discourse…
Pouty, thin-skinned narcissism has a really short shelf-life.
@gVOR08: So, just like the campaign, then?
I don’t think Trump started the Twitter storm.
What I think got lost in the headlines was the fact that the booing came from audience members. It was then conflated with the “lecture” from the stage. The idea that the Hamilton cast should apologize for the booing is ridiculous, unless they walked out on stage and started it (they didn’t). Like James, I had some negative impressions of this until I read a little farther than the headline. I am not a fan of booing, but Pence is a big boy. I have mixed opinions about the cast reading this message rather than having something hand delivered to him (yes, this was the cast using its megaphone and grandstanding), but it was one reasonable choice and hardly outrageous.
@Terrye Cravens: It proves nothing. The only thing one can take away from that comment is that you approve disgusting wrongdoings only if they are done by “progressives”. Progressives…a misnomer if there ever was one. Leftists should label themselves “regressives” inasmuch as they see themselves as the only ones fit to rule the proletariat, whether they like it or not. You guys have much in common with French kings. L’etat c’est moi.
I experienced the Jesse Ventura tenure as the Governor of Minnesota. He was elected by a plurality not a majority decision – Reform Party back when they had something going on.
I couldn’t say that Ventura was elected solely because he got the 4theLulz vote, but he definitely got 100% of the 4theLulz vote. Skip Humphrey had as much charisma as my accountant (actually, she’s pretty cool, but I’m playing on the Aspegersish accountant cliche) and Norm Coleman was an unappealing gas-bag.
There was a whole lot of “It’ll be funny if he wins and besides he’s a celebrity” voting popping Ventura’s win.
That feeling didn’t last very long. After a few months he was essentially ignored (and then viewed as an embarrassment rather than a plus) and folks just moved on with doing the state’s business without his input.
There are some parallels to today. But Trump also wasn’t a third-party candidate like Ventura, but I guarantee that he got all of the 4theLulz vote and he effectively ran as third-party type: the not your Grandma’s Republican.
But keep in mind that Trump ran as a Republican so he has a feisty party apparatus and system and people / culture to bolster him unlike Ventura. Also, the terms of the implicit agreement between the governed and the Governor were a lot lower. Minnesota generally doesn’t wage war unless it’s with Wisconsin and the terms are football or basketball.
But with Trump there are also strong affinities to the Ventura as Governor experience.
Not the least of which is that they are both pouty, thin-skinned narcissists.
Ventura was essentially ignored and by-passed by the legislature and public after a very short honeymoon. Everyone glommed onto the fact that he was not a process guy. All talk, nothing but.
Yes, Trump has a major party kinda / sorta behind him, but if things go sideways, they’ll bail. Witness, the #NeverTrump movement and the hold-my-nose / just for the SCOTUS noms voters.
If the brand is in jeopardy and put there by Trump’s incompetence, Trump will get the blame. If the public perception is that the Trump yacht is sinking, then the rats will be jumping overboard like the sea was made of cheddar with waves of gouda.
There’s a lot of similarities, but also a lot of “buts”. Big buts. It’s okay. I like big “buts”; I cannot lie.
@Terrye Cravens: We have no self-awareness? Which group of idiots do you belong to? The ones who want to violently overthrow the government or the ones who need a “safe space” to heal their bruised feelings?
Like the one Trump demanded when he tweeted about this Hamilton thing?
@john430: No, actually, I do not approve of disgusting doings…I don’t approve of self serving hypocrites either. So spare me the outrage.
@Terrye Cravens: I’m not displaying outrage, you must be looking in the mirror. I just think all liberals are stupid.
@Mikey: Pretty much.
I just noted this in Trumps initial tweet:
What the hell is that “cameras blazing” bit?
I get that Twitter is mostly idiots jibber-jabbing about their day and how sweet their new kicks look complete with photos, but we have the President-Elect inserting this nonsense phrase “cameras blazing” apropos of absolutely nothing. Opiods, cocaine, dementia? What’s happening in that man’s brain?
There are two (actually three) levels here:
– our next President is actively tweeting
– and he’s tweeting complete non-sequiturs
– (third level) he’s rabble-rousing with all of the inherent mob danger that implies
I hope we survive this.
Just noticed this…
Trumps’s handle is @realDonaldTrump.
OMG. Dude is supposed to be alpha dog. Mentored by Roy Cohn. Savvy Billionaire. Knows when to pinch his pennies and when to unleash his law dogs dollars be damned and squash ’em like they’re bugs, boys…
And his goddamned Twitter handle is @realDonaldTrump. Emphasis on the “real” part.
He can’t quash sitters on his Twitter handle while he was campaigning for the Presidency of the United States of Goddamned America and he will have the nuclear football at his convenient disposal within ten feet of him directly after he is inaugurated and he can’t square away the exclusive rights to his own name on Twitter???…
He’s the President-Elect and he has to preface his handle with “real”
That makes my brain hurt so hard. I’m utterly emboggled.
Part of me thinks that we’re doomed by electing this petty little self-aggrandizing narciscistic wanker, this Caligula from Queens, but we are a resilient folk – like all people are all over the world. We will survive this.
I hope we survive this.
No,these things are not the same, and I’m not talking about ‘purity tests.’ A Senator voting for a war or an official endorsing military action may or may not be a good idea, depending on the specific situation.
Trump boasted about committing sexual battery. That is a crime. Enough women came forward confirming that he actually does those things that it is no longer an plausible to argue it was empty talk. If a person supports him any way, they have decided that criminal sexual behavior is not disqualifying in a presidential candidate. You can’t make that judgement then turn around and complain about Bill Clinton, or Vitter, or Anthony Weiner, because you’ve proven you didn’t actually care about sexual conduct at all.
I agree sexual battery is a crime. Why isn’t drone bombing a wedding reception? Why isn’t starting a war (Vietnam or Iraq)? Why isn’t destabilizing a region leading it into the disruption we see in Libya and Syria?
Sexual battery is horrific, but the victims are still alive. Shouldn’t killing people (and in large numbers) be considered the same?
So I agree with what you say about sexual battery and Trump. I just think causing death on a large scale is as bad or worse, and so if supporting someone who’s committed battery is supporting sexual battery, then I see no way to avoid concluding that supporting someone who’s supported military intervention is not also supporting military intervention.
You’re correct in pointing out it depends upon the military intervention. But we’re talking about supporting the Iraq War, supporting drone warfare (how many weddings have to be bombed before this is considered a war crime?), supporting the activity that has caused so much death in Libya and Syria? Those are not good wars by any standards other than that of a warmonger.
To borrow from your excellent last line, supporting someone who supported those shows you never really cared about war mongering at all.
Unless you think people held their noses at Clinton’s military hawkishness and voted for her anyway. And again, if that’s possible in the case of killing large numbers of people, why in the world would it not be possible in the case of sexual assault?