Monument Shutdowns Bring Protesters To National Mall
Conservatives gathered on the National Mall today to protest the closure of memorials, but their message seems really intended for Republicans in Congress to not back down.
The closing of several open air memorials on the National Mall became the focus of protests today that brought out several top conservative leaders and Members of Congress as well as a small, but not insubstantial, crowd:
WASHINGTON — A crowd of people has converged on the World War II Memorial on the National Mall, pushing through barriers to protest the memorial’s closing under the government shutdown.
WTOP Radio (http://bit.ly/GXQKGV ) reports Republican Sen. Mike Lee of Utah and Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas were among those who gathered Sunday morning, along with former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin. Cruz says President Barack Obama is using veterans as pawns in the government shutdown.
The memorial has become a symbol of the bitter fight between Democrats and Republicans over who is at fault since the shutdown began.
Fox News has more:
Veterans marched on Sunday in Washington in protest of the partial government shutdown that has kept them and other Americans from visiting war memorials across the country, with support from several star conservatives.
“This is the people’s memorial,” Texas Sen. Ted Cruz told a crowd of several hundred gathered near the WWII Memorial on the closed National Mall, which has become a national symbol of the shutdown and the country’s response. “Simple question: Why is the federal government spending money to keep veterans out of the memorial? Why did they spend money to keep people out of Mount Vernon, Mount Rushmore? Our veterans should be above political games.”
Veterans, including many in wheelchairs, were allowed inside the memorial at about midday as others took the protest to the edge of the White House South Lawn.
“Today somebody’s wife [or] husband is dead in Afghanistan. Is somebody going to pay her husband [or] his wife or their children?” one protester shouted at the White House, referring to the partial shutdown cutting off benefits for the survivors of military personnel.
Cruz was joined by former 2008 GOP vice presidential nominee and Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, on a gray, rainy day in the nation’s capital.
“Veterans have proven they are not timid and we will not be timid and calling out any that use military as pawns,” Palin told the crowd assembled at the Million Vet March on Memorials. “We can only be America, home of the free, if we are America, home of the brave.”
Protesters shouting “U.S.A.” and “Tear down these walls” are putting the blame squarely on President Obama and Democratic congressional leaders.
Of course, the coverage from CNN is slightly different:
Angered by the closure of national landmarks due to the partial government shutdown, a crowd of conservatives removed barricades Sunday at the World War II Memorial and the Lincoln Memorial as they rallied against President Barack Obama and Democrats for their role in the ongoing stalemate.
High-profile speakers with close ties to the tea party appeared at the event, including former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas.
The rally, billed as the “Million Vet March on the Memorials,” drew far fewer than a million people and evolved into a protest that resembled familiar tea party events from 2009, with yellow “Don’t Tread On Me” flags throughout the crowd and strong anti-Obama language from the podium and the audience.
One speaker went as far as saying the president was a Muslim and separately urged the crowd of hundreds to initiate a peaceful uprising.
“I call upon all of you to wage a second American nonviolent revolution, to use civil disobedience, and to demand that this president leave town, to get up, to put the Quran down, to get up off his knees, and to figuratively come out with his hands up,” said Larry Klayman of Freedom Watch, a conservative political advocacy group.
(…)
Demonstrators removed the barricades Sunday at the rally, tossing them into a pile nearby. After the speeches, the crowd wandered down to the nearby Lincoln Memorial and removed its barriers as well. When some officers tried to put them back up, protesters took them from the officers’ hands and carried them away from the memorial.
“You look around though and you see these barricades and you have to ask yourself, is this any way that a commander in chief would show his respect, his gratitude to our military? This is a matter of shutdown priorities,” Palin said.
Anti-Obama sentiments echoed throughout the crowd Sunday, with one protester yelling out “punk” to describe the president and one speaker saying Obama is not the president of “the” people but “his” people. Multiple signs read “Impeach Obama.”
At least one vulgar sign could be seen, which was directed more toward Republicans. It read “You can’t be a conservative and a p**sy too.”
The protests are getting a lot of coverage from the usual conservative websites and, most interesting of all, appeared to be aimed more at Republicans on Capitol Hill than the Administration. Consider these tweets from National Review’s Robert Costa:
Just as GOP leaders think about potentially bringing CR/DL deal to floor, conservatives, on Hill & off, hold firm http://t.co/QRzlHrjOcf
— Robert Costa (@robertcostaNRO) October 13, 2013
If you can’t fathom my report about Right enthusiasm/#war mentality following memorial protests, go ask a righty lawmaker, or check out…
— Robert Costa (@robertcostaNRO) October 13, 2013
… front pages of Breitbart, Twitchy, Drudge, Blaze, Townhall, Daily Caller, etc
— Robert Costa (@robertcostaNRO) October 13, 2013
When I say “big story,” I mean big story to those on Right on Hill who have some sway/decisions to make in the coming days
— Robert Costa (@robertcostaNRO) October 13, 2013
That’s what I’m reporting: this vet/Palin/Cruz memorial protest story is going viral quickly on right, will shape House GOP scene on M & T
— Robert Costa (@robertcostaNRO) October 13, 2013
Costa is suggesting, of course, that the protests are likely to strengthen the resolve of recalictrant members of the GOP Caucus in the House, and to some extent in the Senate as well, as we get closer to the “drop dead” deadline of October 17th. Indeed, watching the Sunday morning shows today one could find plenty of examples of conservative Congressman insisting that the GOP still held the upper hand in the battle with Senate Democrats and the White House, including a few who still believed that Obamacare should be on the table going forward. It’s an utterly ridiculous position, of course, but what matters at this point is what pressure these Republican legislators are feeling from their constituents and from the GOP base. A protest like this is clearly aimed directly at them as the hours tick away and they come closer to being forced to cast a vote that could very well end up solving our current manufactured crisis, or throwing the economy for a loop thanks to panic in the financial markets.
Is it idiotic? Of course it is, anytime you have people like Larry Klayman speaking and people carrying “Impeach Obama” signs, you know you’ve crossed the line into the crazy part of the conservative movement. But that matters very little at this point. What impact this might actually have on how we move forward in the days to come remains to be seen, but for those legislators on the right looking for a reason to hold the line, they’ve just found one. What that means going forward is anyone’s guess
When we were trying to prevent a misbegotten war in 2002-2003, we brought more than enough people to overflow that entire frame, a crowd in which today’s protest would be completely lost. And we did it twice!
Fat lot of good it did us. Anybody who allows themselves to be swayed by a protest as skimpy as the one today is just looking for an excuse to be swayed.
You know, I will shake my head at the small minded Republicans who don’t think the shutdown would affect anyone, but it sickens me to no end that the only thing they can find to complain about is monuments and parks being closed.
The best thing Democratic groups could do is pay for families who are going without because of the shutdown to come to Washington and protest hunger and poverty.
There is no better way to show how ridiculous these right-wing protests are than to show a more accurate face of the shut down.
I didn’t realize that Larry Klayman is a raving lunatic too. It would have been great if a group of Democrats showed up to sell Kool-Aid to those idiots.
This proves once again that the old GOP-the party of Eagleburger, Scowcroft, Bartlett, Stein and Bush the Elder-James Joyner’s party- is dead and gone. What’s left is the party of Limbaugh, Erikson, and Levine-or rather party that Limbaugh, Erikson, and Levine made.
I see no point in trying to negotiate any further with politicians that take direction from the ravings of Twitchy, the Daily Caller, or the speakers on the Mall . Let’s just go through the default and see whether the Tea Party’s predictions that default “won’t matter” will come true. Until reality runs over the delusions of these clowns, they are going to continue with their nonsense.
Let’s see, the people who shut the government down are pissed because things are shut down.
Not feeling optimistic about the future with this level of stupidity in the air.
So the thing conservatives are outraged about isn’t millions of people being thrown out of work through no fault of their own; it is being unable to go sightseeing for a couple of weeks. Values voters indeed.
@Doug Mataconis:
There’s no longer a sane part of the conservative movement that has any power.
It was last seen being drowned in a bathtub.
Of course they care primarily about monuments. Monuments are about the past.
Of course they don’t care about scientific research being disrupted. Research is about the future.
Palin&Cruz 2016! Political comedy rapture WooT
Yeah… Cruz and Lee et al closed the monuments…but it’s Obama using them as pawns.
I particularly appreciated the part where veterans took down the Barrycades from the open-air monument and delivered them to the White House. Nice touch, that.
And I have to thank an anonymous InstaPundit reader for this observation (paraphrased): It seems that the move to shut down the memorials was to say “this is what we do for you,” but a lot of us heard it as “this is what we can do to you if you piss us off.”
Only a Stupid Party would close non-essential services, and then protest that non-essential services were closed.
@Jenos Idanian #13:
The specification for this shutdown was to only keep essential services.
It is running per spec.
Or, it could be that true Americans don’t care for Obama’s petty, spiteful stunt of blocking memorials and parks, spending more money to barricade them then would have been spent to leave them open. You know, the memorials and parks owned by The People.
Nor am I particularly surprised that the comments with the best likes on this post are ones that are decidedly negative towards Republicans and Conservatives. Sad that OTB has taken such a left turn over the years.
@William Teach:
No, in fact it is hilarious.
Also, judging by the photo, there aren’t very many “true Americans.”
@Jenos Idanian #13:
You ain’t seen nothing yet Punchy. I repeat, if I were Pres I would see to it that all the shutdowns, as much as possible, were focused exclusively on red districts. They want to play hard ball? We can play hard ball. Fwck ’em. What would they do? Impeach me?
The thing these idiots don’t get is Obama is being nice.
@William Teach:
It is really sad that this hatred of Obama is seated in a deep misunderstanding of the office of President.
The essential / non-essential line was drawn long ago.
You guys think there should be an “outdoor” exception to that, but there is not, in law.
As Costa suggested, I went over and checked some of my “favorite” right-wing websites. Breitbart’s big story is about “CNN mocking Vets as Tea Party Crazies”.
… as if there’s anything untrue about it.
I’ve watched/listened to a couple of live streams this morning, and as I veteran, I can tell you that these people don’t represent me at all. The great majority of people who showed up to this protest are in fact “tea party crazies” … some of whom also happen to be veterans.
@Jenos Idanian #13:
If I may go all Mean Girls on you, stop trying to make “Barrycades” happen. It’s not going to happen.
@Gold Star for Robot Boy: Actually, I tried to push “Barackades,” but it went nowhere. “Barrycades” seems to have more traction, so I yielded to the majority.
If you are in the majority, do you get to wear a bigger dunce cap with glitter on it?
@OzarkHillbilly: Personally, I was wondering if Obama (or his minions, with his tacit approval) would start shutting down “interstate highways.”
And as Mr. Teach said, it takes a special kind of stupid to implement a fiscal shutdown in ways that spend more money than actually leaving things as they were. A mean-spirited, hyper-partisan, petty kind of stupid.
You know… like you.
@anjin-san: If you are in the majority, do you get to wear a bigger dunce cap with glitter on it?
Please. They’re sparkles. Special Sparkles. They’re magic.
Which is oh so much worse than a “let’s finish the job we started in 2008 and make that depression happen” kind of stupid…
@Jenos Idanian #13: You seriously don’t understand that “interstate” and “federal” are two different words????
@William Teach:
No, OTB has stayed sane.
You, on the other hand…
So how many showed up at the Million Vet March on Memorials anyway? 300? 400?
Today’s leaders just don’t seem to be in the same league as what I grew up with: Johnson, the master politician who could get anything through Congress. It helped having Hubert Humphrey in there too. Nixon was the ultimate pragmatist and Reagan was not far behind. In those days Congress knew how to wheel and deal with the outstanding leadership of Russell, Dirksen, Long, Fulbright, Mills, and Mike Mansfield. Today’s leaders need some poker skills. We need to keep in mind that we are seeing is most likely a front. The real action is going on behind closed doors in smoke filled rooms. O’Neill and Reagan fought like dogs in public and then would meet in private, having drinks and cigars while swapping stories. What we see on the media is a front, don’t be fooled.
“They’re probably drinking coffee and smoking big cigars….I’m stuck in Folsom Prison and time keeps dragging’ on” (“Folsom Prison Blues” Cash)
Jenos and the Silly Pirate Guy should refer to Jameses post on facts.
Of course they won’t…being too stupid to realize how stupid they are.
@Jenos Idanian #13:
I heard it as, “We wanted this shut down, and how dare you shut down the stuff we like!” To be honest, you just can’t beat Sarah Palin for interjecting a level of near-orgasmic excitement to any gathering of morons and idiots. She’s the Tea Party movement’s vibrator.
@al-Ameda:
Which can only leave Jenos as the Dildo.
@ Tyrell
Getting misty and nostalgic for the good old days will not help us resolve this crisis. 30 years ago, I was drinking with rock stars and fishing in a very well stocked pool of pretty girls every night. There are some nice memories, but it has nothing to do with my life today.
And, when I get past the nostalgic buzz, I remember the endless secession of hangovers and the missed opportunities of that decade.
Do you really pine for LBJ & Nixon? Yikes.
@ Davebo
I knew Steely Dan. Steely Dan was a friend of mine. Mr. Idanian, you are no Steely Dan.
@William Teach: @PJ:
I’m wondering.
Since when is acknowledging reality a “left turn?”
I don’t consider myself a “leftist.” I didn’t vote for Obama in 2008 or 2012. I have opposed many of his domestic policy positions. And yet, apparently because I am not a foaming at the mouth rapid right winger, I have taken a “left turn.”
@Doug Mataconis:
I’m pretty sure he was referring to the comments Doug.
Trust me, no one questions your unfailing loyalty to the Grand Old Party.
Um…since Republicans stopped acknowledging reality.
That was easy.
Next question…
@William Teach:
You know, the federal memorials and parks that are included as part of the non-essential government services that were shutdown by way of planned political actions of Republican Party legislators.
You own this shutdown, so start accepting responsibility for it instead of whining like petulant middle school kids who were deprived of their 24oz Mountain Dew at the cafeteria soda machine.
It says something meaningful about the nature of the American Right today, that, of all the things they choose to be outraged about during the shutdown, they focus on monument closures. Not food safety inspection going offline or what have you. National monument closures, i.e. they are mad that they can’t pay fealty to sentimental symbols of the past.
Reality does have a well-known liberal bias…
@anjin-san: Thanks for the comment. Johnson did a lot of things that were good for the country, though he messed up completely with Vietnam. Humphrey was an upbeat, positive leader who was respected and well liked. If we had one more week in the 1968 election we would have beat Nixon.
No, there were a lot of problems in the ’60’s. The country was never quite the same after ’63. We have Oswald to thank for that.
@Jenos Idanian #13:
Are you coming back later in drag? Because we loved you as your female sock puppet.
Klayman works for Freedom Works which is funded and organized by the Koch Brothers.
In other words this is the view of the Republican elite.
Tragic what has happened to the GOP.
We should probably ask President Romney how meaningful the ability to attract a crowd is.
Today, a group of owners took action to correct an ongoing mis-application of barriers by the hired help. Erroneously, employees of the People of the United States have been blocking off access to open air, and long ago paid for, memorials and parks. Unable to get management to correct the employees’ errors, a subset of owners have acted to correct this ongoing wrongful behavior by their agents.
For those visitors to our country who have been inconvenienced by this wrongful behavior by our employees, We, the American People, apologize and beg your pardon but let it be known we will be taking action to reform our employees or remove them from duty.
@ JKB
You are quite right. Closing a park is an inconvenience. Losing a substantial portion of one’s net worth if the economy is deliberately tanked is something rather more serious.
@William Teach:
OTB hasn’t taken a turn left. The GOP has taken a turn to batsh!t crazy. Your party is dying and you’re in denial.
@JKB:
Are you even capable of honesty?
JKB seems upset that Republicans shut down the Government in an effort to deny health care to sick people.
Only one arrest which is good news. Hopefully they cleaned up after themselves since they furloughed the folks who usually handle that.
Louie Gohlmert (R-Texas) now says that Debt Default is an Impeachable Offense .
They really are intellectually disadvantaged , aren’t they?
Hmm…one wonders exactly how patriotic some people are if they are carrying flags that represent treason and racism…
@C. Clavin: yeah, like obamacare is intended to help the poor&sick…..brilliant. i guess there’s no other obamacare topic page so you might as well bring up that massive error that will enrich some at the expense of others- and don’t forget it’s a huge tax increase on the middle class!
anyhow, it is ridiculous to erect barriers at open air monuments…..and it’s backfiring.
It certainly won’t do as much as a single payer system would, but such a system was/is opposed by people like you…
Actually, what is backfiring is the Republicans attempt to extort the president into getting what they can’t get any other way…
@C. Clavin: No longer the party of Nixon and I think even Reagan wouldn’t like it. I remember a time when New England was Republican territory. How things have changed.
@anjin-san: The other 999,700 couldn’t get there cause the million truckers were clogging up the highways.
Bill…you do realize the Republicans shut down the Government because all of their other efforts to stop a Obamacare failed, right? And that’s why the Monuments are closed, right?
You can’t possibly be as dumb as you act, right?
And there was a time when the South was run by Democrats. But they found it more productive to move into running Northern cities to continue their racist tendencies.
@An Interested Party: yes, people who work for a living are opposed to it, nearly 60% of Americans and not a single Republican voted for it in either house.
“Barrycades”, it’s the newest word for this lamness- and he could get the gov’t back to work just as easy as anyone could. he chooses not to, don’t be fooled/foolish. his popularity is dropping along with the value of the dollar.
I must admit to being slightly surprised that the Obama administration would manage the shutdown in such a juvenile, petulant, passive-aggressive way, going out of their way to punish so many average citizens.
I wasn’t surprised in the least to see the regular gang of clowns here applaud the temper tantrum, however.
On a slightly more meta level, I have noticed three differences to tell apart the comments here and those at Democratic Underground:
1) The commenters here have, on average, slightly better vocabularies.
2) The comments aren’t threaded.
3) Dissenters aren’t banned on sight.
Apart from that… not much.
Please, elaborate on what you found dishonest in what I wrote?
Did government employees not blockade open air monuments and parks? Do government employees not ultimately work for the People? Do we not have a government by the people, for the people and of the people? Is not the Executive branch, headed by the President, the managers of the government? Has not the Executive branch refused to stop and correct the employees from blocking off open air monuments and parks? Did not a subset of The People remove the barriers opening monuments and parks that require no immediate expenditure of appropriated funds to be open and available for The People to enjoy? Have not visitors been abused by employees of The People as they sought to visit the open air monuments and parks? Should not The People take the responsibility of ownership to correct this bad behavior by employees in the face of management’s refusal to take action due to their argument with the board?
@bill:
Actually the polls show a 7% bump up for Obamacare. So keep it up!
@JKB:
Oh spare me your crapola. This shut-down is entirely the fault of your party. You know it, I know it, obviously according to the polls, the people know it.
So the guy who shutdown the government, Mr. Cruz, who hates government, protests the closing of a government funded memorial due to a shutdown he supports. WTF?
Happy to be of help…
Sure, GOP bad-mouthing has certainly caused many people to be opposed to the ACA, as well as the fact that many of those who don’t like it feel that way because it doesn’t go far enough towards a single-payer system…and many people like the individual parts of the law, despite Republican propaganda…
Exactly like the very small difference between you and people like you around here and the mouth breathers at places like Red State and Ace of Spades…
@Jenos Idanian #13:
I must admit to being slightly surprised that the
Obama administrationHouse of Representatives would manage (to)theshutdown (the government) in such a juvenile, petulant, passive-aggressive way, going out of their way to punish so many average citizens.All these monument fetishists who think the shutdown has been handled improperly by the administration should go read up on the anti-deficiency act for a while. It wouldn’t hurt if one of the FPers here mentioned it in a post too. The point is the implementation of the shutdown involved all sorts of complicated legal issues way above the pay grade of ignoramuses who rant on the internet.
And yeah, if they’re letting Larry Klayman out in public then they’re at the point where they’ve literally driven themselves too crazy with rage to handle basic politics.
@michael reynolds: 37% for the man himself- a new low.
@C. Clavin: interesting view, you know that he could just sign a budget, even a temporary one and get things rolling again? but no, he will not negotiate- he said it, not me. yes, he of the 37% approval rating now- he’ll be remembered for this long after the congress has moved on and changed personnel. guess he needs to butch up after getting humiliated by putin over the syria thing?
That’s a rather…ahem, novel take on the realignment of the South. The usual explanation (lie) told by Republicans as to why the South turned red is that it was entirely unrelated to the Democratic Party’s embrace of civil rights since the 1960s. But this is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone suggest that it happened because the Dixiecrats actually, physically moved to the North to continue their racist policies.
This does, I admit, have a certain explanatory power. It means that once there was a Democrat named Strom Thurmond who hated black people, as Democrats all do, and then in the 1960s he was never heard from again. Then, a totally different man named Strom Thurmond appeared, a fiscally responsible Republican who was great friends with the blacks (even knocking one of them up–what better proof of his colorblind motives?). It is rumored that the original Strom Thurmond traveled northward, went to a tanning parlor and changed his name to Barack Obama, where he proceeded to become president solely in order to implement his white supremacist agenda, as evidenced by the lily-whiteness of his supporters, compared with the racial diversity of the Republican electorate who favor such Lincolnesque causes as flying the Confederate Flag.
It all makes sense!
@ JKB
The people’s National Aeronautics & Space Administration is also shut down. You know, the folks from the government who brought us the greatest achievement in human history. I’m kinda pissed about it, as the future of the human race is involved.
How come you are not bent out of shape about it? Could it be because Fox is telling you that keeping parks open is our highest national priority and NASA is a waste of money?
Dude, don’t be a sheep. The tend to get fleeced. And slaughtered.
@bill:
Is Obama running for re-election? Oh, that’s right: no. Whereas every House member and a whole bunch of Senators are up. Your House might be safe in their crazy-town districts, but your chances of retaking the Senate are declining every day.
And your number is wrong. RCP has Obama’s average at 44%, which would mean he’s about half as underwater as your party.
@Jenos Idanian #13:
Actually, you must admit that you didn’t realize that a shutdown of non-essential services meant that the stuff you like would be shutdown too. Wait a minute, no need for you to admit it, your statement is evidence of that.
Republicans practically define pathetic – they plan the shutdown of our government then complain that the Government is shut down.
@JC: It’s all about trying to “win” the news cycle and strengthen the resolve of the Tea Party caucus. And stuff their pockets with donor cash from the 27 %. Not necessarily in that order. But hey, why not try to turn lemons into lemon aid? Cynicism of the highest order.
@JKB:
.
Your dishonesty and disingenuousness? That’s easy – you failed to mention that Republicans planned and engineered the shutdown, the same shutdown that you’re complaining about. Also, I do not understand who, other than government employees, you thought would close down government once the required shutdown was underway – private sector employees?
@bill:
Interesting view, you know that the cops could just get the bank robber a plane and he’d then promise to have the hostages released? But no, they will not negotiate….
@bill:
My god, why is it always about D/S and gay sex with you people? Just come out of the closet already, you’ll be a lot happier and you won’t have to sublimate your weird psycho-sexual Boss Daddy dramas into politics.
Giant confederate flag w/ USMC banner in front of the WH:
https://twitter.com/goldietaylor/status/389470761531875328/photo/1
Sign affixed to the WH fence citing Nuremberg trials:
https://twitter.com/Kudzu81/statuses/389439482396934144
Threatening sign “Tree Of Liberty Getting Very [Dry]” held by protester in font of WH:
https://twitter.com/Observer609/status/389458073690976256
Also lots of Oath Keepers present:
https://twitter.com/Green_Footballs/status/389540439998492672
https://twitter.com/Green_Footballs/status/389544418492964864
@JKB: You know, if it wasn’t for the fact that a minority of the minority party somehow managed to force a shut down of the government over the pipe dream defunding the ACA, I might have some sympathy for your arguments, but your feeble attempts at misdirection make me want to throw up. You don’t give a flying f*** about The People or you wouldn’t be laying 100 % of the blame on the Obama administration, who were elected by The People, of The People and for The People, by the way. Piss off.
A bunch of misguided clowns rallying around, what is in effect, a dick…. The irony is delicious.
It is bizarre what the GOP chooses as their new scandal of the week. I never would have thought up “We shut the government down, but you’re doing it wrong” and expecting other rational people to take the complaint seriously boggles the mind. It’s farcical.
bill is one of these cult members who has no idea what is going on, has no interest in finding out, yet rabidly holds onto the opinions the cult leaders give him.
Quite scary.
@al-Ameda: Actually, you must admit that you didn’t realize that a shutdown of non-essential services meant that the stuff you like would be shutdown too. Wait a minute, no need for you to admit it, your statement is evidence of that.
There’s a special kind of stupidity to keep saying this over and over again, when everyone knows that’s not the point, and has been explained over and over again. It’s a form of willful stupidity that crosses over into lying, and I’m tired of repeating reality to those who refuse to listen.
OK, one last time: when something is being shut down for lack of money, you don’t spend far, far more money than necessary to not just cut the costs, but to make goddamned sure everyone knows that it’s shut down and they are not allowed to use it. Especially open-air monuments that have no doors, fences, gates, or any other barriers to their access, so barriers have to be brought in, and guards to protect those barriers.
Jenos…shut down is shut down. That’s what you wanted. Man up.
@David M:
This is just a microcosm of what Republicans have been doing for the past 5 years. Congress does everything it can to block (or at least limit) President Obama’s economic agenda, but then turns around and tries to pin the slow jobs growth on him.
Their entire elective strategy seems to be based on appealing to people who don’t pay attention, and/or aren’t capable of “connecting the dots” even if they do.
Sorta-kinda on-topic:
My company rolled out the info for our 2014 benefits enrollment today. Previous plans remain available, and they’ve added something that I bet lots of folks wished we’d had before: a combination high-deductible + Heathcare Savings Account plan. We’ve had heathcare spending accounts before, but they suck (it’s use-it-or-lose-it, and it’s cumbersome). Premiums increased 5%, which I think is in line with the national average of late (the company claims the average increase for “large employers” is 6.5% and therefore we’re getting a good deal. This could be true, I dunno). So, in short: increased flexibility and a reasonable increase in premiums.
I’ve seen a lot of anecdotes about health insurance of late. There’s mine.
Oh, this is good:
http://www.samefacts.com/2013/10/debt-ceiling/ben-franklin-on-john-boehner/
@Jenos Idanian #13: And we’re all really tired of you repeating the same stupidity over and over without any proof. Saying a closed monument using just a few rangers/security people (who are there even when it’s open) but not employing anyone to clean restrooms, empty trash, staff gift shops or give tours can cost more money than when it’s open is ridiculous (even if they print the same crap over and over in the Daily Caller). Really, you guys do need to come up with better lies.
Because if there’s one thing House Republicans care about it’s veterans. (Hint: Ctrl-f veterans.)
@Jenos Idanian #13: Actually, you shut down everything you are legally obligated to whether because, as an Agency head, you can be held legally responsible if you don’t. It has nothing to do with cost benefit. This is Congress’ show and they control how the shutdown program unfolds. Unless you advocate activities Govt thugs disregard the law.
@michael reynolds: @anjin-san: @al-Ameda: @angelfoot:
I see, I was giving to much credit. I’ll write slowly so maybe you can keep up. You see, this was not a shutdown in the literal sense of the word. What happened was that appropriations were not passed into law to authorize the distribution of monies from the Treasury. As such, all activity, now limited to “non-essential” activity that required the use of appropriations to continue had to stop. This involves pay for employees performing non-immediately needed tasks, payments on contracts, etc. So those employees were furloughed, those payments suspended and those activities halted until such time as appropriations are enacted into law to authorize their payment.
Nothing in not passing appropriations into law requires or even hints as the use of appropriations to rent barrycades, install such as well as cones or even print signs saying areas are closed for areas that do not require the expenditure of appropriated funds to continue. In fact, such activities are probably in violation of the anti-deficiency act. Open air parks and memorials do not require the use of appropriations to remain open to the public. Police that may be necessary due to the crime-ridden nature of some of the localities in which such places are located are on duty as “essential” workers so do not impact the areas remaining open to the public.
It’s hard, I understand, but it has long been a fact that most Americans can get along just fine in many areas without the constant surveillance of government employees. I suppose those such as yourselves find such a prospect horrifying but you really need to work on being free people and throw off your internal shackles of big government overwatch.
Your dependency is new. Just 107 years ago, the NY Times had this to say of government work
@angelfoot:
I’ve gone over this before, Republicans hold the majority of federal elected offices. They, however, only have a voting majority in one of the two legislative branch houses. However, our form of government does not work on majority rule between those houses, even if you include the President’s veto. Instead, it works on consensus. Nothing happens unless the two house come to a consensus on the legislation which is then subject to Presidential veto but that can be overridden if the two legislative houses can achieve a consensus of a level to override the veto. At which point, the President is obligated by his oath to faithfully execute the law regardless of his personal or political opinion.
@Jenos Idanian #13:
Let’s be clear here. The government is not shut down due to lack of money.
It was not shutdown to “cut the costs.”
It was, however, shutdown to “make goddamned sure everyone knows that it’s shut down and they are not allowed to use it.” You see, that was the point. Shut it down, defund Obamacare, cut spending. This was the plan the whole time. Don’t lose heart, Jenos. Endure.
WAKE UP SHEEPLE!
Look, JKB. I know this may be hard for you to understand, but people actually value security as well as liberty. They are both important. Ben Franklin’s pithy line aside, we’ve been balancing them for a long time now. I can think of areas where I think we’re overtilted toward “security” (real or faux) and I can think of areas where I think we’re over-doing “liberty” at the expense of security (health insurance – single-payer is the way to go).
Most people do not want to return to the 19th century. But by all means, keep trying to sell it to them.
@JKB:
So long story short, you acknowledge that non-essential services should be closed.
You just think it is the number 1 political issue in America that you should be able to use closed services, whenever they are “open air.”
We have higher national priorities, in my opinion – like opening government and ending the burn rate on “closed” things we pay for anyway.
We think James will be paid, right? He just isn’t working.
@JKB:
Ah no, the veto is not there for “consenus.”
@JKB: You see, this was not a shutdown in the literal sense of the word.
Of all the bullshit you been pedaling lately, this takes the cake. If it’s not a shutdown, then what is it?
All of this whining and crying over having achieved what you wanted – the shutdown. And “shutdown” was the word used – over and over again by Cruz and his ilk on record. Then it came and whoa, it’s unpopular!! People like/need/want these things! Damn those people, don’t they know Gubmint is the enemy and we should all be doing without? Who knew the American public needed the Statue of Liberty more then they need food inspection or cancer trials?
At this point, I think we should let baby have his bottle. Open them up to the general public with no supervision. Let them see what happens when the general public gets their hands on things with no rules. You may trust them – I don’t. I work down the street from a major football stadium – I just drove past PILES of garbage and mess scattered everywhere. People were out trying to clean up after the general public at an event they paid good money to visit – what the hell do you think they will do to someplace free? To an untended monument?
Wait till someone snaps a picture of some drunk guy urinating on the Lincoln Memorial as there’s no bathrooms. Document it all. Watch the public casually desecrate what they want so desperately to see that they’re willing to “shut down” things to get. Then we can talk about this stupidity through your faux outrage and why it’s your focus.
@michael reynolds: I’ve got two thumbs. I should be able to give you two thumbs up for that comment.
@Jenos Idanian #13:
What money is being spent? The barriers are already bought and paid for (trust me, the government already has thousands and thousands of these lying around) and the Park Police are — wait for it — unpaid since they are being required to work without pay.
And, of course, if the open air monuments weren’t shut down, and every day thousands and thousands of people trampled over them, walking over the bushes, overflowing the bathrooms, leaving garbage everywhere, the monuments would soon suffer so much wear and tear that it would cost a lot of money to repair and upgrade them later on. Ultimately cheaper just to keep everyone out. But I’m aware that the concept of “spend $1 now so as not to waste $5 in the future” is not one that can be explained to a Republican who’s never held a substantive job in his life.
Another thought on health insurance:
Last week I popped on the CT exchange website and did some quick research. I found that a Gold (or was it Platinum?) plan for my family of four would cost ~$13.5k/yr. Since I presently have good employer-provided health insurance, obviously this isn’t a deal for me. However, just for kicks, I worked out the total premium payments for us, counting not just our contribution (30%) but also the company’s 70%. The total for 2014 will be… $16,800. 30% of which is ~$5k, though, so again: obviously we stick with the employer-provided coverage.
[Also, I’m pretty sure that our current BCBS PPO plan provides better coverage than the plan I looked up on the exchange (lower deductibles, out-of-pocket cap, etc). So this isn’t a straight apples to apples comparison, though it’s not that far off]
Here we see the impact of the tax deduction available for employer-provided health insurance. If that ceased to be, a bunch of things would change – for some, the changes might be radical. This is one of the reasons the Democrats decided not to try and uncouple employment and health insurance: something like 70% of the population has employer-provided health insurance (directly or through a spouse or parent), and removing that (stupid) tax deduction would throw everyone into a new world. In theory, the ~$12k my wife and I are currently receiving in premium support would migrate over to wages (discounted, of course, because now it would be after-tax), and we’d become responsible for 100% of our premiums. Eventually, anyway.
When liberals describe the PPACA as a cautious half-measure (with numerous sops to the health insurance industry), this is why. I’d have preferred a more ambitious reform, but it wasn’t politically possible.
@ Rob in CT…
I’ve had an HSA for several years…my firm offered it for a while…then discontinued it. I have kept mine for a couple reasons. It’s pre-tax. And I, unlike most people, don’t use a lot of health-care…knock on wood. But I also participate in some fairly dangerous activities and can easily imagine a catastrophic event. So I have a nice nest-egg hanging around just in case. It’s also great for eyeglasses, dentists, etc.
I won’t stop using my employer provided and Government subsidized (tax benefits to my employer – of course) health-care, for now.
But it’s damn nice to know that I can go out on my own if I wish, without getting raked over the coals by Insurance.
Thanks to Mr. Obama.
@JKB:
So, he was obligated to shutdown the government, even the stuff that you like. Thanks for the clarification.
@C. Clavin: But it’s damn nice to know that I can go out on my own if I wish, without getting raked over the coals by Insurance.
Thanks to Mr. Obama.
This. Breaking the insurance “job lock” will be a win for society as it stimulates workers going out on their own and creating new things. And it’s also the right thing to do. Win-win all around. How cool is that?
@Jenos Idanian #13:
In other words, “I didn’t realize that when the Republican House engineered this shut down, I couldn’t pick and choose which non-essential services would be open and which would be closed.”
You guys have descended into the pathetic position of assigning style points to your shutdown.
No, he was obligated to stop all expenditure of appropriated funds for non-essential services. Parks, memorials, etc., do no require the near-term expenditure of appropriated funds to remain available for use by the owners and their guests.
Take the WWII memorial or Mount Rushmore, neither require the expenditure of appropriated funds for individuals to gaze upon it or even walk upon the grounds. Buildings, shops, etc., would have to be closed but roadside pull offs do not require the expenditure of appropriated funds to remain open for weeks, months, even years.
Expending appropriations to rent barriers and cones to block off areas that require no appropriations during this period where the appropriations have not been enacted is probably a violation of the anti-deficiency act.
So you are arguing that Democrats shouldn’t be permitted to access the memorials and parks as they don’t know how to behave in public?
Not to mention, the Park police are on duty and would be available to stop such behavior.
in any case, should such “desecration” happen, then I’m sure many veterans and other decent people in America would be willing to stand a post to stop the behavior of the lower class individuals you worry so much about.
@JKB: What point are you trying to make with this little civics lesson? That congressional Republicans were trying to achieve consensus with their Democratic colleagues prior to the shutdown?
@JKB:
The President should issue an Executive Order declaring all services to be essential to the support of our military personnel and our national defense. Let’s just eliminate the current confusing cafeteria system Republicans now advocate concerning the shutdown. No more of that, “I didn’t mean that Veterans could be inconvenienced by closing the Memorials in DC” or “hey wait a minute, why are government employees shutting that down?”
Law enforcement activities have not been impacted by the shutdown. Officers are still on patrol, arrests are still being made. In fact, the use of Park police to harass peaceful visitors to open-air areas is more likely to adversely impact security as those officers are not patrolling for those actually committing crimes other than defying The Obama and his government minions.
Zinger of the day:
@anjin-san:
Very good, but strictly speaking deadbeat rather than abusive..
@JKB:
Simply put, your continued focus on parks and monuments is deranged.
@C. Clavin: Hmmmmm….. this gives rise to another narrative I hadn’t previously thought of. By subsidizing individual premiums, the gov’t is cutting individuals (albeit a small group)a similar deal to the one they cut with corporations via tax write offs for their contributions to their company plan. Individuals getting similar treatment to corporate entities….no wonder right-wing fascist appeasers are out of sorts. Their Corporation, Government, You pecking order has been violated.
@JKB:Not to mention, the Park police are on duty and would be available to stop such behavior.
And who pray tell is paying them? Unless you are willing to declare Park police “essential”, you are demanding they work for free at your pleasure. In which case, would we be able to make the same demands of you? I’m sure your boss would love this “essential” no-pay deal, will you?
And I absolutely love that you think no Republican litters or indulges in public urination. Must have been a hell of a lot of liberals at that football game last night…..
Have cons taken up fencing instead?
in any case, should such “desecration” happen, then I’m sure many veterans and other decent people in America would be willing to stand a post to stop the behavior of the lower class individuals you worry so much about.
Under what authority? What gives Random Guy #1 the right to police Random Guy #2’s behavior? Am I allowed to arrest, harass and/or make demands of you on public property even though I have no lawful authority? Are stern lectures appropriately effective? What will “the decent people” do, flash a piece to scare the “lower class” away? Illegal, you know – brandishing. This is why police exist in the first place. Exactly how do you think something like that is going to go down when push comes to shove? How do you plan to enforce good behavior on people who don’t have to listen to you?
The only worse PR photo than someone wizzing on Lincoln would be a kid shot dead by some overzealous TEAnut on trash can watch.
JKB…
Shut Down means Shut Down.
Give it up.
You and your fellow cultists are wrong.
You don’t get to choose what’s shut down.
Republicans did that for you.
It was a loser play to begin with.
Stop whining about it you baby.
Nor is it a vote. It is a strong opinion that can be disregarded by a Congressional override.
But the easiest way to get legislation into law is to develop a consensus between the two Congressional houses and the executive.
The Park police have been deemed “essential” since October 1. They are not working for free, but will be paid. As this is the federal government, that pay may be delayed something not permitted by private employers. Those deemed “essential” have enforceable claims for wages and benefits due to their continued work. I believe the Congress and President have also passed legislation that will make those employees now furloughed whole for wages they would have earned if they’d worked.
So I’m not sure what understanding you have of this situation but it seems to be erroneous.
JKB and the rest of the Republican losers are funny.
They want to get rid of Obamacare…but keep the good stuff.
They want to shut down the Government… But keep open the good stuff.
Republicans could use a dose of reality.
And should leave governing to the adults.
@JKB: Yes because what Americans want and need in times of scant economic expansion and uncertain retirement prospects……are parks. Monuments to government that distract from their true default condition of incompetent. The GOP shutdown playbook…. Let their be Parks! 1st World problems…. The elephant is about ready for the glue factory.
@ KM
Don’t stop JKB, he is on a roll. With just a little work, he can integrate his park closure fantasies and his vigilante/gun fantasies into one all-encompassing delusion.
You are right, all services that require the expenditure of appropriated funds that have not been deemed “essential” must be shut down.
Those services and facilities that do not require the expenditure of appropriated funds to continue are not impacted by the failure to pass appropriations. Any closing of such facilities in arbitrary and spiteful as well as unjustifiable under the current lack of appropriations enacted into law situation.
@JKB:Expending appropriations to rent barriers and cones to block off areas that require no appropriations during this period where the appropriations have not been enacted is probably a violation of the anti-deficiency act.
benPARKzzi!
@JKB:
No. Government generally runs by majority rule. The Framers gave one man, the President, the ability to demand a supermajority.
Consensus in the real sense, and not in your phony sense of minority rule, would be beautiful, but is strictly speaking unnecessary.
In other words, “compromise” is the word you should be trying to grasp.
Jeez, these Teas will try every possible way to dress up their demand for minority rule as something else.
@anjin-san:
Ah, so true. My apologies. He’s like one of those bad Mary-Sue fanfic writers- trying to cram it all his little kinks and dreams into what barely passes for plot while not getting why people keep flaming his totally awesome work.
I wonder, do you think he’s a fan of Ebony Dark’ness Dementia Raven Way?
No fool…non essential government is shut down.
What’s ridiculous…And you seem just too daft to get it…is this is what you wanted.
It’s like the economy… You pursue austerity…. Then complain about a slow recovery.
Idiots.
I’m going to suggest that Jenos and JKB have already received far more attention than the nonsense they are posting merits.
@JKB:
You keep saying this:
Is there a source for this (that the barriers are rented), or it just something that you’re assuming?
You could type that every day and never be wrong.
Just sayin’
@JKB: Gosh, JKB, thanks for explaining the really keen-o situation your party has put the parl police in. I’m guessing you’ll volunteer to personally reimburse them for the late fees on credit card and mortgage payments for as long as they’re not getting paid.
Oh, wait, you won’t? You mean you just blithely accept any kinds of suffering as long as it doesn’t happen to the handful of people you consider worthy, like veterans who want to go to memorials?
@JKB:
Security isn’t just about cops and soldiers. Having health insurance is a form of security. Having retirement savings is as well.
Just like Liberty is more than low taxes, Security is more than just national defense.
When you go on about the glorious time of yore when men were men and women were women before the Demon FDR came along and messed everything up, you either fail to realize or deliberately ignore the fact that people want some measure of economic security. They don’t want central planning, but they do want to be protected from capitalism, red in tooth and claw. For damned good reasons, too.
Again, please do proceed with your attempt at selling 19th Century America to 21st Century Americans.
Why Sarah Palin is Back
Wondering why Sarah Palin has reemerged on the political scene in recent days?
She has a new book out next month: Good Tidings and Great Joy: Protecting the Heart of Christmas by Sarah Palin.
By the way…
While JKB and Jenos whine like little babies about some parks that Fox News told them about…the Republican shutdown has cost close to $2B and will likely shave .5% from next quarters GDP. Remember this when they whine about a slow recovery.
@JKB:
You mean they didn’t have any barriers in stock?
Do you have any evidence of this malfeasance?
I’ll call Darrell Issa, he can widen the Benghazi investigation to include rental of barriers and cones during the so-called non-shut down shut down of “essential” government services
@michael reynolds: maybe that’s why he’s so ineffective? he got another term and has nothing to work for anymore- typical lame duck.
@Rafer Janders: so let the hostages die already!?
@Rafer Janders: i have no idea what D/S is- i’m comfortable in my heterosexuality though, thx for asking…..i think.
@C. Clavin: yes, the cult of rational thinkers- glad to be a member. reality is what it is, despite the rhetoric. obama could easily sign a few papers and get some “essential” branches functioning, but he will not. i think it costs more to hire people to erect “barrycades” around open air memorials than it does to actually staff them……but that’s his call completely. he wants to make a point and that’s that.
@anjin-san: that’s how obama became a millionaire- selling books about hisself….i think they’ve approved them for being sleep aids!
Do write to your Congressional representative and ask him/her to bring forth articles of impeachment…maybe your dreams will come true…
Except he was effective enough to get the ACA passed into law…meanwhile, it is the Republicans who have been completely ineffective in trying to stop it…
Oh really? You are the one who is so feverishly worried about how the president has to “butch it up”…such things seem to concern you for some reason…
@ bill
Becoming a successful writer is actually pretty difficult. It’s comically easy to sneer at the accomplishments of others – do you have any of your own that are worth mentioning?
Only someone who hasn’t read Dreams from my Father (or who is deliberately distorting it) would dismiss it as Obama’s “book about himself.” While the book is a personal memoir, it is not in any way boastful or self-centered. Much of the book consists of him watching other people and listening to their thoughts and observations. It is far more a book about the things Obama sees and hears as a biracial American than it is a book about Obama per se. Anyone who has read the book would know that.
(The Audacity of Hope, on the other hand, is certainly a book about Obama in which he promotes himself and his ideas. It was published after he began his senatorial career, and is pretty typical of the books that politicians write.)
@anjin-san: get real, they were a way to sidestep campaign contributions….and paint a wholesome picture of an unwholesome person. most presidents give the money “earned “on books to charities other than themselves. well, clinton kept the cash too, only way that sleazeball could “earn” money too- despite his education.
@Kylopod: sure, dreams of an absentee father….typical and essentially the only thing “black” about obama.
@An Interested Party: railroading obamacare through without a senate vote is hardly something to brag about and it’s something Americans didn’t want either- just like hillarycare. and i do nothing “feverishly” when it comes to obama, it’s a waste of effort-
@bill: Thank you for confirming that you did not read the book you have chosen to attack.
@bill: “typical and essentially the only thing “black” about obama. ”
Amazing, You just let one of these right wing nuts talk long enough and they inevitably out themselves. They can keep out the racist rhetoric for a few posts, but ultimately we get discussions about just how “black” Obama is…
@bill:
Republicans are obsessed with race, why?
Excuse me? How’s that? The ACA passed both houses of Congress fair and square and was upheld by the Supreme Court…save your tears of unfairness for those who don’t have a memory…
It’s ok sweetie…no need to be in denial…
@An Interested Party: not a single republican voted for it, reconciliation 101. aside from that we just don’t want it.
@al-Ameda: i’ve never thrown a race card, fact! (unlike many in here)
@bill: Dude, when you say “race card” we just laugh at you.
Also, nobody gives a shit if any Republicans voted for ACA. It got a Senate supermajority and a House majority. It didn’t need any Republican votes because there weren’t enough Republicans to matter, even with the abuse of Senate rules, because the GOP had just finished nearly destroying the world economy. Get over your bad self.
Part One: About the Monuments
I think we could all find examples of conservatives and liberals saying embarrassing and even awful things. It is scary how people are raging at each other on both sides. My leanings are conservative in many ways, but I can’t align myself with much of conservatism. Anyway, I haven’t studied this monument shutdown subject deeply. But, in the interest of promoting mutual understanding, here’s the first reaction of a conservative type. The Obama Administration is not just choosing in this shutdown to not spend money on things unessential things that conservatives value. But, it actually spends money to shut down symbolic things that require extra effort to shut down (such as open air, unmanned monuments). Maybe it seems petty for conservatives to care. But, to conservatives it seems petty in a threatening way that something so unnecessary is being done. It is a symbolic action that some people find disturbing. For example, activists and artists have taken the American flag and stepped on it or burned it. Physically, it is an action of almost no consequence. It is maybe $10 worth of fabric and coloring. Symbolically, it could be very disturbing to people who watched others die in battle to not let a flag fall to the ground or who fled to America to escape oppression in another country. Symbolically, needlessly shutting the monuments disturbs some people. It cost nothing to keep them open, so it is assumed to be a symbolic gesture.
Part Two: The Bigger Picture in One Conservative Mind
I’m all for acknowledging the evils and hypocrisy of America’s past (and present), but I don’t want to see a deep revision of America’s founding principles. I wish we had always gone by the clear principle that all men are created equal and endowed with inalienable rights to life, liberty and pursuing happiness. It was not the principle that was bad, but failure to follow it. My conservative leaning is that liberty was always a right principle, but was compromised in the past with terrible consequences. Now, the right to life is compromised. I can only expect terrible consequences because that is part of the “fabric of reality”. Fredrick Douglas said something like “The man who puts a chain around the ankle of his brother will at last find the other end around his own neck.” I love this quote. I believe it reflects reality because I don’t believe we are here by a law of survival of the fittest, but by a law that says that good will always triumph over evil in the end. The founders believed inalienable rights came from a Creator. Though they were very imperfect in their obedience to this principle, I find the principle itself to be irrefutable. If people have a Creator, they exist for a definite purpose. If one fails to treat people according to that purpose, it will do damage and ultimately be unsuccessful (even if it is profitable or pleasurable for a while). If people have no Creator, they have no definite purpose. “Rights” would only be a term of convenience for arbitrary rules that have no ultimate significance. Are American principles right in an atheistic evolutionary world? No, they are fatally flawed by presupposing a Creator. But, then again, neither is rape or slavery evil in an atheistic evolutionary world. Allegedly, dolphins are masters of rape and sex slavery. Is this wrong in an atheistic world? Of course not. Dolphins do what they have “evolved” to do. The unwilling dolphin has no real rights in the matter. It is subject to the will of the stronger. People like to use the often beautiful, yet also cursed and horrific, natural world to justify presently desired social behaviors like the killing of our unborn or homosexual behavior. But, we have to realize the natural world goes far beyond our present desires for social acceptability. I invite you to compare some sexual behavior of dolphins to that of sex-enslaver Ariel Castro. I’m confident that liberals and conservatives, gays and straights, pro-choicers and pro-lifers generally despise his behavior. But, not everyone has a really consistent reason to condemn him. The law code of nature has nothing in it about sex only between “consenting adults” or abortion only for “unwanted pregnancies”. Some use nature to justify one behavior and totally ignore nature if it doesn’t suit their taste. Attempts to define good and evil from nature or natural desires will always fall short because there is more to reality than nature. If that is true, all human law (including Obamacare) should be looking for something greater than our natural desires.
Part Three: Application
I’m deeply concerned about President Obama’s positions based more on large principles than specific programs. I’m not enough of an economist or political scientist to understand all the effects of Obamacare. But, I’m very concerned that Mr. Obama is extremely pro-choice. If life isn’t God-given with inherent value, it is a non-issue. But, if life is from God, this is a bigger problem (by sheer numbers) than black slavery or Native American genocide or even the Nazi holocaust. I’m not advocating opposition with violence, but just trying to logically state the issue. I believe in God. I also believe Fredrick Douglas. The chain of slavery did come back to bind the master in a horrible Civil War and countless social problems since then. Likewise, the knife of abortion will eventually pierce the heart of our society in some way that I can believe in but not foresee. I can’t trust Obamacare because I can’t trust the deep principles of those who authored it. Even more deeply, I think there are definite moves toward a hostile religious prejudice in government and society, especially against Christians. Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus appear to be welcomed under the terms of diversity. But, Christian expressions are more and more attacked. Should people be forced to be Christian or even religious? No. Should people be challenged to think about the logical implications of secularism? Yes. Has religion (including so-called Christianity) often been very harmful? Yes. Has secularism also been very harmful? Yes. Can a secular person behave morally? Yes. Can a religious person behave immorally? Yes. Does secularism provide any absolute basis for morality? No. Does true religion provide an absolute basis for morality? Yes. For reasons too numerous to give here, I trust that Jesus is the author of true religion and that hostility toward Him will be disastrous to our nation.
Part Four: Personal
I have tried to be respectful and communicate with you. Insulting my intelligence or my moral quality is useless. Only giving me a wiser and better way would help. You might have to start small by showing me how I have misunderstood some basic principle. Am I ignorant? Yes, of uncountable things. Am I a bad person? In myself, yes I am. My Lord Jesus tells me I am neither wise nor good, so how could I argue that I am. Since I’m neither wise nor good, why do I speak at all? Because I have found wisdom and goodness in Him that I want to share with you. If anyone made it this far, thanks for trying to understand me. If you contact me, I’ll try to return the favor.
@Jim Henley: whatev, i say they should just let it through so we can see what a disaster it is. of course if i were a liberal shill i would say the same thing could have been done with regards to slavery of something lame….you know the drill. still,less than 40% of voters approve of obamacare- and obama himself. that’s scary, and fixable.