Open Forum

Where you can't be off topic because there IS no topic.

The floor is yours.

James Joyner
About James Joyner
James Joyner is Professor and Department Head of Security Studies at Marine Corps University's Command and Staff College. He's a former Army officer and Desert Storm veteran. Views expressed here are his own. Follow James on Twitter @DrJJoyner.


  1. mattbernius says:

    Nothing like waking up the day after a weekend full of tragedies to find that POTUS is using one of the mass shootings to espouse for the immigration controls, which just happens to be *check notes* what the El Paso shooter was calling for in his manifesto.

    ….this legislation with desperately needed immigration reform. We must have something good, if not GREAT, come out of these two tragic events!

    It’s going to be a long ass day.

  2. @mattbernius:

    If what Trump has tweeted this morning is a preview of the speech he’s supposed to give later this morning (10 a.m. Eastern for those who care) he may as well cancel it.

  3. mattbernius says:

    @Doug Mataconis:
    As I said on Twitter, I’m aligned with Radley Balkco:

    Asking Trump to denounce white supremacy/racism is like asking me to denounce my left arm. It means nothing. It’s part of who he is, and he isn’t going to give it up. It just gives him and his defenders an empty gesture to point to in his defense when he “racists” again.

    I want him to give that speech and blame the media and then call for immigration reform with no mention of the issue of White Nationalism. That way he doesn’t give a fig leaf that his base — like the enablers of racism that comment here — can use as a fig leaf to say that president isn’t a racist.

  4. Kathy says:


    1) If we knew for a fact, and I mean beyond any doubt, that there is an afterlife, and it’s better than this life, would murder and suicide be wrong? In fact, wouldn’t suicide be a good life choice?

    2) If we knew there is an afterlife, that it’s different from the current one but neither better nor worse, would murder and suicide still be wrong?

    In a story called “Last Enemy,” H. Beam Piper explores a notion similar to the second option. Here reincarnation is proven fact, and murder is engaged in regularly, but through an Assassins’ Guild (no mention of suicide), as well as through duels to the death. War and armed conflict is also common.

  5. OzarkHillbilly says:

    If you want to keep dangerous weapons out of the hands of the mentally ill, don’t elect them President.


  6. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:


    1) If we knew for a fact, and I mean beyond any doubt, that there is an afterlife, and it’s better than this life, would murder and suicide be wrong? In fact, wouldn’t suicide be a good life choice?

    I always got a kick out of the idea, from Beetlejuice, that suicides are doomed to be public servants in the afterlife.

  7. Tyrell says:

    @mattbernius: I am a white, male southerner. I attend church. I was raised in the Southern Democrats party. Republicans were very rare around here then. I went to a lot of stock car races, and Braves games. I was not a racist and am not a racist now. There were a lot of racists then, but I also knew some great people who weren’t. My parents raised me better. Some things were bad back then: separate restrooms and water fountains, separate restaurants, hotels, and stores. A lot worse than they are now. My school was integrated with no problems before the Civil Rights law. My church was “multi racial, multi cultural” years before those terms were used. I oppose illegal immigration: that is not racist. Our church sponsored legal immigrants and refugees into this country and helped get them started.

  8. Kathy says:

    @Daryl and his brother Darryl:

    Better than a bleeding tree, yes?

    Besides, no need to haunt the annoying family that moves into your old house.

  9. OzarkHillbilly says:


    I oppose illegal immigration: that is not racist.

    Well then, I guess you support E-verify and the filing of criminal charges against people who hire undocumented immigrants, right?

    Also, you are very much in favor of tightening immigration controls at all the ports of entry, especially airports where the vast majority of undocumented immigrants enter our country on tourist visas? Also the tracking of them?

    Our church sponsored legal immigrants and refugees into this country and helped get them started.

    And how many of the thousands of *asylum* seeking families at our southern border has your church sponsored in the past 2 years?

    **keeping in mind that seeking asylum is very much a legal right in the US, by treaty and by law.

  10. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:

    @Doug Mataconis:
    Well…that was without a doubt the least self-aware speech ever given.

  11. Teve says:

    Mrs. Betty Bowers
    USA: It’s a mental health issue.

    WORLD: We have those. We don’t have mass shootings.

    USA: Then it’s a video game issue.

    WORLD: We have those. We don’t have mass shootings.

    USA: It’s very complex.

    WORLD: No, it’s gun laws.

    USA: Prayer in school?

    WORLD: God, you’re stupid.

  12. Bob@Youngstown says:

    Toledo !
    What’s happened in Toledo that Trump called out Toledo in his announcement today on mass shootings ?

  13. KM says:


    Our church sponsored legal immigrants and refugees into this country and helped get them started.

    How many of them were what your church found to be acceptable? For instance, did they sponsor Muslims, Hindus or Yazdi? From what countries – were places like Sudan, Yemen, Mexico or Malaysia considered? What conditions were put on the sponsorship? I’ve found there tends to be a lot of strings attached, such as having to attend services that specific church often, sit through their proselytizing or provide tithing on the little income. It’s never a truly free service – you are expected to be tied to the church and repay them for their “altruism” in some fashion.

    Don’t get me wrong – I’m sure most churches mean well when they do this. But they are very picky about who they sponsor for a reason and have often expectations regarding their “help” that’s not very Christian-like.

  14. Jen says:

    @Bob@Youngstown: Was just going to post exactly that.

    What is WRONG with him? How is he unable to retain where the shootings occurred? There were two: one in El Paso and one in DAYTON Ohio.

  15. KM says:

    Toledo, Dayton, Gilroy, El Paso – they’re all in the same state, amirite? I mean, you can’t expect someone with such a good brain to waste it remember small details like where a massacre took place yesterday. After all, they’ll be another one tomorrow he’s going to have to remember and it’s hard to keep track!!

    … ok, just made myself depressed with that. Too close to the truth for sarcasm….

  16. KM says:


    What is WRONG with him?

    Brain damage.

    No, seriously. Be it Alzheimers, dementia, drug-induced, potential tumor or otherwise, he is CLEARLY mentally-declining at a rapid rate. He’s sundowning before noon and that’s never a good sign. He is exhibiting signs of a medical issue that absolutely needs to be addressed for the safety of our nation and the GOP is pretending it’s normal to have a President with brain farts every 20 seconds!

  17. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:

    That…and did you notice his speech patterns? Is that due to drugs, or the mental illness?

  18. mattbernius says:

    Congratulation @Tyrell, you managed to post some of your usual white fragility bullshit on a day where *checks his bag* I have completely run out of the fucks necessary to be polite.

    It’s great that you say you are not a racist. Here is your effing cookie for achieving a base level of human decency. Let’s throw you an effing parade for not having irrational animus towards your fellow man.

    Beyond that, cry me an effing river that your feel feels are hurt because you think everyone things you’re a racist because you’re an older white male. It’s truly sad that a grown person is so sensitive that you think the world is totally against them. Truly you are the real victim.

    I oppose illegal immigration: that is not racist.

    Nice straw man. Guess what, most of the American population opposes illegal immigration.

    The devil is in the details.

    If you are providing cover for Trump’s maximalist immigration positions and the racist language that he’s using to support them (i.e. invasion and shooting the invaders) then your deeds speak for themselves. And if those words make you uncomfortable but you still support his general positions, you should ask yourself who you are providing passive support to.

    And if you think that using an attack on immigrants is a great way to build support for harsher immigration measures, which apparently you do because my initial post trigger your, then I think you need a conscience rest. Maybe actually listen to what’s being said at church instead of just showing up to singal how virtuous you are — because you’re proving a ton of support to an administration that is doing a shit ton of outright un-Christian things.

    Our church sponsored legal immigrants and refugees into this country and helped get them started.

    So then I am sure you actively and vocally opposed to the Trump administration’s massive restriction on refugees — in particular Steven Miller’s push to reduce them to net zero.

    But hey, the actual harm that is being done to non-white people is far less important than your discomfort. So please, keep supporting white nationalism because the people in your head are telling you you are racist.

    And be sure to keep putting on that bullshit down home southern country charm polish that you love so much.

  19. mattbernius says:

    Credit where it’s due, the statement hit the right notes in general. I hope for the sake of this country that the President can stick to these speaking points going forward at his events. And I also hope that this gives the Republicans the necessary cover to start actively working against the White Nationalist portion of their base.

    Also going after the “Toledo” slip is petty…

  20. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:


    Credit where it’s due, the statement hit the right notes in general.

    As Kamala Harris said;

    I’m too busy watching what he’s doing to hear what he’s saying

    As Tim Ryan, (D) Ohio, said;

    Toledo. Fck me.

  21. CSK says:

    @mattbernius: To be fair–which is hard for me when it’s Trump–Biden seemed to think the shootings had taken place in Houston and Michigan.

  22. KM says:


    Also going after the “Toledo” slip is petty…

    What? He had to remember two names – 2. Hell, it would have been *written down* for him and he just needed to read it off. It’s just disrespectful AF to not even know where the damn massacre took place you’re supposed to be addressing. Tell you what, next time you go to a funeral and they use the wrong name during the eulogy, just let the family know it’s petty to complain about the “slip”. After all, they meant well and what’s a little detail like actually knowing who you’re talking about matter if you hit the right notes?

    I get what you’re trying to convey but I can’t give him credit for doing the bare minimum and failing to do even that right. He doesn’t get a cookie for basic human decency, he doesn’t get props for finally pointing out something he encourages killed people and he certainly doesn’t get points for failing to read the damn cards and console the right people. For anyone else, this is *expected behavior* and the freaking standard for being a human being but I’m supposed to give him credit for not making things worse?? Talk about damning someone with faint praise!

  23. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:


    Also going after the “Toledo” slip is petty…

    C’mon…the entire thing was read by an automoton from a prompter.
    He slurred and bobbled his way thru it…no an ounce of sincerity or genuine empathy…much less self-awareness.
    But let’s just agree to disagree, and when he undercuts it all within 24 hours…well…apology accepted.

  24. Mikey says:

    @KM: Way back in ancient times, i. e. the 2016 campaign, I said Trump would get praise after the debates for simply not dropping trou and taking a steaming dump on the stage.

    If anything, the standard has lowered since then.

  25. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:

    @Daryl and his brother Darryl:

    As Tim Ryan, (D) Ohio, said;
    Toledo. Fck me.

    Ryan later expanded upon his tweet during an appearance on CNN, slamming Trump and saying that the president had showed “diminished mental capacity to be able to lead.”

  26. Bob@Youngstown says:

    Toledo — He was reading the script! Either he can’t read or didn’t review the announcement ( shame on him and his writers) or as KM , he doesn’t recognize any differences between cities.

  27. Jax says:

    Pissed off Beto is my favorite Beto. “Members of the Press…..What the Fuck?” That was classic.

  28. Teve says:

    President Dumbass has the answer!

    Donald J. Trump
    Today, I am also directing the Department of Justice to propose legislation ensuring that those who commit hate crimes and mass murders face the DEATH PENALTY – and that this capital punishment be delivered quickly, decisively, and without years of needless delay.

  29. Teve says:

    Christ on a cracker the Dow Jones has dropped 1400 points (~5%) since mid last week.

  30. 95 South says:

    @Teve: Death penalty reform is a winning issue.

  31. OzarkHillbilly says:


    Credit where it’s due, the statement hit the right notes in general.

    Don’t worry, in 2 days he’ll be talking about the “very fine people” on both sides.

    @Teve: So much winning, things can only get better in the wake of the Chinese breaking the 7Y barrier.///

  32. Kathy says:


    If you thought the trade war was bad (ie “good and easy to win”), just wait until Dennison picks up China’s invitation to a currency war.

  33. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:

    @95 South:
    Another red-hatted white supremacist heard from.

  34. Teve says:

    Kevin drum is 100% correct here:we need to ban semi-automatic firearms

    As usual, I don’t have a lot to say about our latest series of mass shootings. I’ll just repeat my standard prescription: the only real answer is to ban semi-automatic firearms. This is obviously not going to happen anytime soon, but it should be the goal. The only way to move public opinion on this issue is to start saying this clearly, loudly, and persistently.

    And let’s all forget about the NRA, OK? Sure, they’re a terrible, corrupt organization, but they aren’t the root problem. Public opinion is. There are just too many people in America who like their guns and too few people who feel strongly about getting rid of them. To make a difference, that has to change. Like gay marriage, it will change maybe one percent a year and it will take 20 or 30 years to finally come to fruition. But what other way is there?

  35. Jen says:

    @mattbernius: I understand what you’re saying, but I’m guessing that to residents of Dayton, mixing up Toledo and Dayton doesn’t come across as petty, it comes across as thoughtless.

    I’ve worked in both politics and PR, and whenever there’s a crisis or tragedy, it is really, really important for leadership to get details like that right. It’s incredibly easy to get things mixed up, especially if a CEO etc. has been up for 48 hours dealing with a crisis. That’s why they are typically drilled over and over on a very short set of talking points–it keeps them from saying something that is frankly an all-too-human slip, but will come across as them not caring.

    That both Trump and Biden mixed these things up is one reason why I’d prefer to have younger candidates for president.

  36. Teve says:

    Still an hour for it to recover but the djia is down 855 at the moment.

  37. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:

    3:04 est and it’s 920.
    Trade wars are easy to win.
    So much winning…

  38. Jen says:

    I didn’t think it was possible for me to be any more disgusted with Mitch McConnell, but the use of gravestone signs with your opponent’s name & Merrick Garland’s name on them the weekend that there are two mass shootings is…horrific. This is about as tone-deaf as they come.

    These people are singularly awful.

  39. Mikey says:


    Also going after the “Toledo” slip is petty…

    No, it’s not, because the “slip” indicates he just doesn’t give a fuck. I mean, really, if you can’t be arsed to get the MOST BASIC details right, why should we believe you care about the rest?

  40. mattbernius says:

    Thanks to everyone for your feedback on the “Toledo” issue. I think by and large I empathize with the sentiment. I need to think about why I had the reaction (or rather the non-reaction) that I had to it…

  41. grumpy realist says:

    @Kathy: IIRC, what blows everything up is not the fact of reincarnation, but it gets proved that it is possible for an individual “spirit” to survive past death and to chose his next location. It’s when the reincarnated individuals then claim they have the right to their old positions/possessions rather than passing the inheritance on to their sons/nephews that things get really messy…. (up to then “reincarnation” was considered simply as one’s spirit going back to some sort of spiritual primordial soup with a loss of memory and getting randomly stuck in one’s next corpus.)

    It’s a good story, but MAN H. Beam Piper did love his gunfights!

  42. mattbernius says:

    Ok… so interesting twist on the Toledo thing: the speech on the teleprompter didn’t list either location by name, just by State (Texas and Ohio). Source:

    His instinct was right to try and name the city. For the same reasons I’m not blaming Biden for the gaffe, I’m not blaming him.

    However, it’s a great example of how his staff isn’t serving him particularly well. Which gets back to an issue of management (or lack there of).

    Beyond that, Jen, I agree with your wrap-up point.

  43. KM says:

    Because you’re a decent person who’s first instinct is to give someone the benefit of the doubt. The kicker is, you’d be right to point out we should give credit for people trying to do the right thing even if done imperfectly….. if it was done sincerely but poorly executed. There’s a picture out there right now showing the teleprompter ( scroll down a bit to find) that clearly shows the line to be “May God bless the memory of those who perished in TEXAS” and he didn’t read it right. Maybe @Reynolds is right and he’s dyslexic or just plain illiterate – word substitution is a known coping mechanism. However, even then I can’t excuse him for this – the names should be burned into his brain from briefings and updates and the sheer amount of TV he watches for all the coverage in the last 24 hours. Lack of decent reading skills does not absolve him.

    You gave him the benefit of the doubt when you shouldn’t have. Like most people, you want to assume the good in others even when it’s not warranted. It’s not a bad thing to be an optimist – Lord knows if you can keep it going in these times, feel free to share the love with the rest of us.

  44. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:

    The MAGA Bomber was just sentenced to 20 years…apparently Domestic Terrorists get off easy.

  45. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:
  46. mattbernius says:

    @Daryl and his brother Darryl:

    The MAGA Bomber was just sentenced to 20 years…apparently Domestic Terrorists get off easy.

    God, today is my day just to be a contrarian.

    If we ever want to get beyond our mass incarceration problem, we’re going to need to build out a sense of proportional sentencing.

    What Sayoc did was awful and dangerous. We also need to take into account his mental state and the fact that none of the devices — for whatever reason — were armed or capable of exploding on their own.

    I totally expect LOTS of downvotes for this — but, honestly this is the way we should be dealing with sentencing across the entire CJ system. For the same reason I think it’s wrong to begin enforcing the federak death penalty and try to expedite the process, I think it is a mistake to think that the right thing to do is to drop Sayoc (or anyone else) in a hole and walk away from them.

    Not to mention that Sayoc will be 77 by the time he’s released.

  47. Kathy says:

    @grumpy realist:

    Yes, that’s what blows things up. But the Assassins for hire were there already (an assassin kills the character who proves the survival of the spirit, at the character’s request), the abundance of guns, the conflicts, the duels, the language that used a word like “disencarnation” instead of killing (I forget the exact word), etc.

    In short, death was seen as no big deal, since reincarnation was always certain.

  48. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:

    Yeah…I’m not dying on this hill.
    The Judge made a good point when he said that Sayoc could have put together actual exploding bombs and didn’t.
    So maybe 20 is the right sentence.
    I’m just tired of these MAGAt’s. But it’s wrong to saddle one of them with the sins of all of them.

  49. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:

    Still I wonder…was the Toledo shooting far from the Bowling Green Massacre?

  50. Kathy says:

    It seems that Boris doesn’t want a deal.

    This is going to get a lot worse before it hits the fan.

  51. Jax says:

    @Daryl and his brother Darryl: I get depressed whenever Obama makes a statement. We went from that….to a lying snake with radioactive hair who can’t even read off a teleprompter.

  52. Gustopher says:

    @mattbernius: I mix up the names of things all the time, so I don’t really fault Biden or Trump for that. It’s not a sign of mental decline, unless it is a new phenomena, and it’s not a sign of not caring. (Not saying Trump does care, mind you)

    I do fault Trump’s staff, and Trump for choosing his terrible staff. You have staff and notes to make sure you get this stuff right, and sometimes you have to spell Al Caida out phonetically, to make sure your vile unjustified attack against a sitting congressman is the vile and unjustified attack that you intend.

    I haven’t bothered to check to see if Biden was speaking extemporaneously or what.

  53. grumpy realist says:

    @Kathy: The ERG has said they’ll vote against the VA even if the backstop is taken out, so the EU attitude has slid quickly to “bugger this for a game of soldiers”, methinks. The latter know that they’re in the position of a game of auto chicken where Boris is in a Robin Reliant and the EU is in an Aussie road train.

  54. Teve says:

    I’m sure many people here know more about the relevant history than I do, so I’m just going to put this out there for general comment:

    the second amendment was ratified to preserve slavery

  55. Jen says:

    @Teve: I doubt that was the sole intent.

    IIRC, it had more to do with the fact that the states didn’t trust a standing army, but understood the need to have men armed to counter the British. Thus the “well-regulated” part of the militia.

    My little burg in New Hampshire is the home to several Revolutionary War Generals, and they mustered on the town square not far from my house.

    Yes, slavery was economically conducive to a new nation, but it wasn’t their only concern. They had also just shaken off a much stronger power, and understood the need to remain vigilant.

  56. Kathy says:


    I’m sure that was so in part, but it was far from the whole story.

    People had guns back then to hunt and to protect livestock from predators, and I suppose from thieves as well. But they could also use their weapons for other purposes, like fighting in a war.

    It’s like the Spartans, in a way. One reason they were so militarized was the large population of serfs, the Helots, who outnumbered the citizens. So the citizens had to be good at fighting in order to prevent or put down revolts. But they were also good at fighting the Persians at Thermopylae (where all 300 or so Spartans perished most nobly), or fighting Athens for control of Greece.

    So, sure, keeping slaves in check and putting down slave revolts no doubt was a major consideration. But so was having a ready-armed force proficient in the use of guns in case of war or invasion. The British were still in Canada and the Caribbean, after all.

  57. 95 South says:

    @Teve: Why pass along the article if you don’t know if it’s right? Just for the liberal talking points?

  58. An Interested Party says:

    Obama statement on the shootings…

    It was interesting reading that thread…over and over again people were talking about how this is how a real president responds to these shootings…quite the contrast going from classy to trashy in the Oval Office…

    @Teve: Ultimately, so many of our problems boil down to how our system was originally set up to help slaveholders and how we can’t get rid of that system…and look who it currently helps…people who, in their thinking, aren’t so different from slaveholders…

  59. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Teve: A lot of people were living on the “frontier” far from anything one could call a govt, much less police, and as Jen pointed out, they were against standing armies. The well regulated militia was seen as the first line of defense from the “savages” and marauders (as well as revolting slaves) and a lot of times the only line of defense.

    @95 South: Here’s a thought: Maybe to find out what others think about an issue and to edify oneself? Not that you would ever trouble yourself so, seeing as the NRA has already told you all you need to know about the 2nd Amendment, history, and guns.

  60. Teve says:

    @Kathy: @OzarkHillbilly: @Jen: here in the South the slave patrols were the ancestors of today’s local law enforcement, though IDK if the connection with the 2A is as direct as the Raw Story author claims.

  61. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Teve: It’s a theory I have heard postulated before, it’s just more complex than that. Where one was very much influenced how one viewed the 2nd Amendment. I’m pretty sure that southern slave holders very much thought the 2nd Amendment was central to maintaining their way of life. I’m also pretty sure Daniel Boone felt the same for entirely different reasons. (tho iirc he did own one slave)

  62. An Interested Party says:

    Hmm…while reading an article about Reagan calling Africans “monkeys” I came across this passage…

    And so the emancipated turned to the government for the resources and freedom the market denied them, although the extent to which they did so was greatly exaggerated by their critics. As Richardson writes, a disproportionate number of black legislators in Reconstruction governments were drawn from the nation’s small black elite, not from among former field hands. The intervention they proposed was most often correspondingly moderate, if radical to the old planter class and its acolytes.

    Nevertheless, in response, white men who had long benefited from a government that defended their freedom to prosper flew into rage over the belief that, as the Tribune correspondent wrote, “they were robbed to support the extravagance of the ‘Ni@@er Government.’” Incapable of seeing the freedmen as full human beings with their own aspirations, their own beliefs, and their own idea of freedom, men like Greeley concluded that because they were black, they were simply too dumb to know better than to seek to rise above their station.

    That sure does look a lot like the Obama presidency…a member of the black elite comes to power and proposes moderate solutions to problems, only to be rebuffed by angry white men led by the trash in the White House…history really does repeat itself…

  63. Tyrell says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: About nine years ago the church had dwindled down and went in with another church. I now attend Pentecostal and Presbyterian churches. Both send funds to church agencies that help refugees. They also send disaster relief and mission groups to help the people of other countries.

  64. An Interested Party says:

    Yet again, it falls to a comedian, rather than the press, to tell the truth

  65. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Tyrell: You did not answer my question, choosing instead to share your congregation’s recent history of dwindling numbers. I am left to assume that the number of families seeking asylum at our southern border that your church has sponsored is zero.

    I wonder for whom your obfuscations are intended?

  66. 95 South says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Show me where I quoted the NRA. Same place Daryl saw me making the white power salute, I guess. If you’re so big on hearing from all sides, why do you get so angry when someone challenges you?

  67. grumpy realist says:

    Toni Morrison has just died.

  68. Teve says:

    We know the rough basics of how the Republicans used the southern strategy and how it transformed their party. Kevin Kruse wrote a good piece about how it wasn’t a unanimous strategy, many people in the party had big reservations.

    Kevin M. Kruse
    Fifty years ago, “The Emerging Republican Majority” was hailed then as “the political Bible of the Nixon era.”

    But as Dov Grohsgal & I write in
    , the Nixon White House and conservatives actually had mixed feelings about it at the time.

    how the Republican majority emerged

  69. Gustopher says:

    @Teve: I’m going to quote Wikipedia here:

    In the years prior to the American Revolution, the British, in response to the colonists’ unhappiness over increasingly direct control and taxation of the colonies, imposed a gunpowder embargo on the colonies in an attempt to lessen the ability of the colonists to resist British encroachments into what the colonies regarded as local matters. Two direct attempts to disarm the colonial militias fanned what had been a smoldering resentment of British interference into the fires of war.[16]

    These two incidents were the attempt to confiscate the cannon of the Concord and Lexington militias, leading to the Battles of Lexington and Concord of April 19, 1775, and the attempt, on April 20, to confiscate militia powder stores in the armory of Williamsburg, Virginia, which led to the Gunpowder Incident and a face-off between Patrick Henry and hundreds of militia members on one side and the Royal Governor of Virginia, Lord Dunmore, and British seamen on the other. The Gunpowder Incident was eventually settled by paying the colonists for the powder.[16]

    Whatever other motives may have also affected this, I’m pretty sure that British attempts to disarm the colonists in one form or another is the main reason.

    Some of those first 10 amendments are based on specific abuses. Quartering of soldiers in people’s homes, for instance,

    The Raw Story author is reaching.

  70. grumpy realist says:

    @Gustopher: One of the standard joke questions law students ask each other is “when was the Third Amendment incorporated in the states?”

    The answer, of course, is “never done”.

  71. Tyrell says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: As best as I can recall there were two families of Hispanics that came in and became involved in the church. The pastor had some language skills learned in his military career and was able to help them get some of their relatives in. These people were very active in the church, quickly found employment, and helped out the pastor with some of his translating. After several months, they moved up the ladder and moved on. Another family came in from, I think it was Liberia, where they had been in a refugee camp. A year later their son was allowed to come over. The pastor did a lot of work with the immigration officials and talked about how much the system was a Byzantine maze to work through. The denomination was not active on the immigration issue yet and visited our church to see what we are doing, as did some other local churches. As far as asylum, I do not know if that was going on. I was not on the leadership team and my involvement mainly was the heavy lifting stuff. That was around 2003.
    The first people the church sponsored were three young men from either Vietnam or may Laos around 1974. They waited in refugee camps too. They moved on and up quickly after they got here.
    At no time was there any goal or idea of getting these people involved in the church. If they wanted to do that, fine. If not, no problem. Everyone seemed to be fine with that.
    In summary, it was a good experience for all.

  72. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @95 South: BWahahahahahahaha… WHEN have you ever challenged me?

    And for the record, from your idiotic unquestioning repetitive recitation of RW talking points, I just assumed you took the NRA’s word on these matters. If I was wrong, I apologize. But not much. Because the CENTRAL point of your comment was to make light of Teve’s asking a question. Which led me to believe that you haven’t learned the first lesson of gaining knowledge, which is, as my mother put it so eloquently,

    “The only stupid question is the one that isn’t asked.”

  73. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Tyrell: I tip my hat to your congregation. Unlike a lot of atheists, I recognize that religious organizations do do some good in this world.

    Still, my question was that in the context of our current political climate, what have they done for the families on our southern border? From what you have said I feel it is safe to say they have not sponsored any families. Have they organized any protests against child separation? Have they written any collective letters in protest of the trump admins blatant ignoring of US law as well as treaty obligations? What about the concentration camps?

  74. Teve says:

    Brendan Karet
    · 23h

    Presidential adviser Sean Hannity: “I’d like to see the perimeter of every school in America surrounded, secured by retired police … have one armed guard on every floor of every school, all over every mall, the perimeter and inside every hall of every mall.”

    Jon Lovett

    We need guns to protect us from a police state, and a police state to protect us from guns.