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Ted Nugent Said Something Stupid; I Apologize

Ted Nugent, whose music I really liked when I was in junior high school, said something vile and crazy. So, according to newly established protocols, please accept my apologies.

HuffPo (“Ted Nugent Stands By Obama Remarks, Compares Himself To ‘Black Jew At A Nazi-Klan Rally’ “) brings us up to speed:

Ted Nugent stood by his controversial comments about President Barack Obama and Democrats made over the weekend,telling conservative radio host Dana Loeschon Tuesday that he had been unfairly targeted for saying he would “either be dead or in jail” by next year if Obama is reelected.

“I’m a black Jew at a Nazi-Klan rally,” the rock star complained to Loesch. “And there are some power-abusing, corrupt monsters in our federal government that despise me because I have the audacity to speak the truth.”

Nugent continued: “I spoke at the NRA and will stand by my speech. It’s 100 percent positive. It’s about we the people taking back our American dream from the corrupt monsters in the federal government under this administration, the communist czars he has appointed.”

The Secret Service is reportedly investigating Nugent in the wake of his Saturday tirade at the NRA convention in St. Louis.

As reported in a Vancouver Sun story with the devastating headline “Republican and has-been rock star Ted Nugent under fire for perceived threat against Obama,” Nugent’s status as a minor commentator has made this a political story.

The Democratic National Committee seized on Nugent’s remarks on Monday night in a fundraising email, pointing out how Nugent has endorsed Romney for president.

“Threatening violence – or whatever it is that Nugent’s threatening – is clearly beyond the pale, but Nugent’s not the one running for president,” said U.S. Representative Debbie Wasserman Schultz, chairwoman of the DNC. “The question is: Does Romney agree with him? Right now, we don’t know.”

Andrea Saul, Romney’s spokeswoman, did not condemn Nugent in an email on Tuesday but said Romney wants to promote civility.

“Divisive language is offensive no matter what side of the political aisle it comes from. Mitt Romney believes everyone needs to be civil,” she said.

Responding in his usual, cogent style, Nugent retorts,

 ”I think Mitt Romney’s already denounced my guitar playing because it’s too sexy,” Nugent said. “Mitt Romney knows what I’m saying is true. He puts it in the words for him, I put in the words for me.”

Now, in the interests of full disclosure, I’ve never met Ted Nugent and he doesn’t know who I am. I did, however, buy several second hand cassette tapes a few decades back featuring his recordings. I’m pretty sure I also bought the Damn Yankees CD. So, my apologies.

That said, while my PhD is in political science, not psychology, I’m pretty sure that Ted Nugent is simply spouting off here and has no actual plans to murder the president. Nugent has a history of hyperbolic expression. See, for example, the idle, macho threats in his 1975 debut single “Strangehold.”

The Secret Service has to do its due diligence, of course, especially in light of the recent hooker scandal, but I don’t think they need to devote a lot of time to protecting Renegade from the artist who gave us “Wang Dang Sweet Poontang” and similar ballads of love.

It’s a matter of public record that Nugent has been afflicted since age ten–that is, more than half a century–with cat scratch fever. The symptoms are varied and complex but I’m reliably informed that you know you got it when you’re going insane. Given the advanced stages of Nugent’s case, as well as recent evidence, it’s quite likely that he’s reached his destination.

That doesn’t, of course, excuse those of us who share his party affiliation. So, when in doubt, we must whip it out. The “it,” of course, being a sincere apology.

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About James Joyner
James Joyner is the publisher of Outside the Beltway, an associate professor of security studies at the Marine Corps Command and Staff College, and a nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council. He's a former Army officer and Desert Storm vet. He has a PhD in political science from The University of Alabama. Views expressed here are his own. Follow James on Twitter.

Comments

  1. michael reynolds says:

    Well, it’s either/or. Either conservatives can stop ginning up phony outrage or, failing that, they can be subjects of that same phony outrage. Fox is a 24 hour a day phony outrage machine and Fox is the house organ of the GOP. Ye reap what ye sow.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 58 Thumb down 4

  2. PD Shaw says:

    Unless there is more to it than what I’ve read, I don’t read any threat. I interpret what he said as a fairly typical paranoid fantasy that the federal government would be coming for him, perhaps to take away his guns or declaring him an enemy of the state. He’s being persecuted and if Obama is re-elected the gas chambers will be erected.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 7

  3. PD Shaw says:

    @michael reynolds: If, as I believe, Nugent and others like him are suffering from paranoid conspiracy theories, it wouldn’t really help if everyone got together and said your being paranoid. It was just confirm the existance of a conspiracy.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 3

  4. anjin-san says:

    Ted Nugent made one really good record over 30 years ago and then fired his singer because his ego could not handle sharing the spotlight. After that he was pretty much a novelty act. What we have is a D celebrity trying desperately to stay relevant.

    Either that or he really is deranged.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 32 Thumb down 3

  5. Rick Almeida says:

    I’m pretty sure I also bought the Damn Yankees CD. So, my apologies.

    For this, you deserve to apologize.

    As penance, you should atone by buying a copy of “Bossanova” by the Pixies.

    Now go, and sin no more.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 2

  6. James H says:

    Could you please also apologize for Vanilla Ice?

    Not anything he said in particular. Just Vanilla Ice.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 24 Thumb down 1

  7. The problem is that Romney want out of his way to get Nugent’s endorsement and until this happened was doing the radio circuit about what a good friend Nugent was and how great it was getting to no him well.

    So this isn’t just some random person spouting off.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 36 Thumb down 2

  8. legion says:

    @PD Shaw: The “money quote” (for lack of a better term) from Nugent is this:

    On Sunday, the singer remarked that “if Barack Obama becomes the president in November again, I will be either be dead or in jail by this time next year.” The Secret Service, which investigates all threats against the President, confirmed to New York Magazine’s Daily Intel blog that they have in fact flagged Nugent’s comment.

    Which is still stupid by any standard, but it does at least sound deranged enough that I’d expect a knock on my door if I said it in an interview. Of course, it also brings up the question: if The Nuge isn’t in jail this time next year, do I get to shoot him?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 17 Thumb down 3

  9. Mikey says:

    An interviewer once asked Ted Nugent, “Are ALL your songs about pussy?” to which Nugent replied, “Well, what else IS there?”

    That’s far more entertaining than this recent stuff.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  10. legion says:

    @anjin-san:

    What we have is a D celebrity trying desperately to stay relevant.

    Either that or he really is deranged.

    Never forget the power of the word “and”.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 25 Thumb down 0

  11. mattb says:

    In general neither candidate should have to be responsible for every comment made by loons on their respective sides.

    That said, the issue with Nugent is to what degree Romney actively sought his endorsement (which makes him a bit different that, say, Rosen). Nugent made it sound like Romney actively sought the endorsement.* If that’s the case then Romney does need to own that connection more.**

    * – Romney’s camp denies that they sought the endorsement. The TPM write up covers both sides – http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/romney-campaign-we-never-asked-for-ted-nugents

    ** – The idea of “owning” connections will, I am sure, cause some folks of a more conservative persuasion here to bring up Rev. Wright and Ayres. My only response is that we are now 4+ years beyond those connections coming to light and the fact that the American people didn’t care about them. Like it or not, that is in the past and no one but you cares about them.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

  12. michael reynolds says:

    @PD Shaw:

    Nugent is part of a continuum on the right, all singing from the same song book: Obama is the other, he is not one of us, he is not American, he is an existential threat. To deliver that message to a convention of gun nuts is irresponsible to put it mildly. But that’s the GOP game: to brand Obama as un-American and then pretend they’re doing no such thing.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 40 Thumb down 3

  13. James Joyner says:

    @michael reynolds: Nugent has been at this for quite awhile, issuing even more vicious comments at Hillary Clinton a few years back. The man has got a screw loose.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 30 Thumb down 0

  14. al-Ameda says:

    he had been unfairly targeted for saying he would “either be dead or in jail” by next year if Obama is reelected.

    I ticked off that Ted is lying to us – he doesn’t really intend to keep his promise.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  15. The problem is that Romney want out of his way to get Nugent’s endorsement and until this happened was doing the radio circuit about what a good friend Nugent was and how great it was getting to no him well.

    Exactly. This is not about being shocked at what Ted Nugent said, or insisting that he apologize for it. It’s not even about Mitt Romney apologizing for what Nugent said. It’s about the fact that Mitt Romney sought and happily accepted Nugent’s endorsement, knowing what he was, and it’s the additional fact that Romney has, to date, not said anything about he shares Nugent’s feelings about Obama, and even more to the point, that he has not said anything about whether he will continue to accept Nugent’s endorsement.

    Criticizing Nugent for what he said is as beside the point as James Joyner’s silly pretending to apologize for him. If Romney had not sought and accepted Nugent’s endorsement, this would not be the story it is.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 2

  16. Hello World! says:

    I’ve always thought of him as a one hit wonder. All i remember from him is from the album burns my church used to hold. I never brought albums I liked but i do remember several copies of cat scratch fever being burned.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  17. Hey Norm says:

    It’s fitting this guy is a favorite of the Repubilcans in general and Sean Hannity specifically. In addition to being a has-been, he is a dead-beat dad, an admitted draft-dodger, and allegedly a child-molester. Plus of course he fits the basic descriptor…a rich old white suburbanite male.
    Now I will admit “Great White Buffalo” and “Stranglehold” occasionally shuffle up on my iPhone music…but it doesn’t mean I think he has anything at all to offer in terms of political discourse. Of course Sean Hannity’s bar for what passes as political discourse is much lower than mine.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 2

  18. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Mikey:

    You mean all his songs are about himself? Narcissism, thy name is Nugent.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

  19. Tsar Nicholas says:

    “Stranglehold” is an absolute classic. Great reference.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  20. @Hello World!:

    All i remember from him is from the album burns my church used to hold.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  21. Franklin says:

    I’m from Michigan, so I guess I need to defend our little Teddy bear here. We grow a lot of ‘em like him around here. He’s as harmless as a mouse. Unless, say, you’re a wild turkey and he’s holding a crossbow. Or you’re a commie and he’s got the nuclear codes. But otherwise, totally harmless.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  22. MarkedMan says:

    Stranglehold was a defining song for me, one of those revelatory tracks where I said “Wow. You can do that with music?” Nugent is, or was, a da*n fine guitar player, but it was really the bass line that made that song. Anyone know the name of the bass player and if he/she ever did anything else? I would google it but it is 2:08 am here in Shanghai and my plane in from Shenzhen was 5 hours late and I’m just getting home and am too tired to do more than drink a scotch and head to sleep. And of course check in on OTB.

    BTW, Nugent is nuts and has been offensively and scarily nuts for a long time. If Obama really pursued his endorsement that is… disturbing. And this latest comment, when coupled with his obscene rant about Hilary Clinton a few years ago (Hilary Clinton! Like she’s the anti-christ too!) indicates a mind that has slipped out of reality. And you can’t blame it on drugs because Nugent claims to have been drug free his entire life.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  23. Hey Norm says:

    To really understand this guy…and all the Republicans that fawn over him…you need to read his own description of how he got out of the draft:

    “…(Nugent claims) that 30 days before his Draft Board Physical, he stopped all forms of personal hygiene. The last 10 days he ingested nothing but junk food and Pepsi, and a week before his physical, he stopped using the bathroom altogether, virtually living inside his pants caked with excrement and urine. That spectacle won Nugent a deferment…”

    Just another big brave chicken-hawk…like Cheney and the rest.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 28 Thumb down 1

  24. Alanmt says:

    Prudence requires treating all such unhinged threats by angry activists as potentially dangerous, regardless of the merits of their speaker’s seventies hits.

    Integrity requires a candidate who has accepted or advertised an endorsement from such a person to disavow such public statements.

    On a more colloquial note, lol at this clown. He’s like a Victoria Jackson whose brief stint in the entertainment industry actually showed some modest talent. Ted, dude, you’re a moron, and an angry foolish moron at that. Go back to drinking cheap beer, buying dumbass lookin’ cowboy hats and using a 40 year old accomplishment to try and get some 20 year old tail. Stay out of politics. Ya ain’t got the head for it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  25. @MarkedMan:

    And you can’t blame it on drugs because Nugent claims to have been drug free his entire life.

    I can claim to be the King of France. That doesn’t make it true.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  26. anjin-san says:

    The man has got a screw loose.

    And Fox and the NRA are happy to give him a platform to speak from. ‘Nuff said.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 1

  27. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @MarkedMan:

    BTW, Nugent is nuts and has been offensively and scarily nuts for a long time. If Obama really pursued his endorsement that is… disturbing.

    If Obama pursued an endorsement from Nugent, he was on some really good drugs. Go to bed MarkedMan. I think you have been up way past your bedtime.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  28. Scott O. says:

    “if Barack Obama becomes the president in November again, I will be either be dead or in jail by this time next year.”

    One more reason to vote for Obama.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 1

  29. Todd says:

    My biggest problem with Ted Nugent …

    I’d really, really, like to go see REO Speedwagon and Styx at some point during the concert tour they’re doing this summer. But for some reason this bozo will also be with them.

    People go to concerts to listen to music. If I wanted to hear the latest rants from right-wing nut jobs, I could just stay home and “debate” with them on Facebook. :-)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

  30. Hey Norm says:

    Ted Nugent and Allen West have been all over the news this week.
    Are there two better representatives of the GOP ideology?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 1

  31. merl says:

    @legion: I think the has-been was talking about suicide, hopefully by Nov 10th or so.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  32. Tsar Nicholas says:

    @MarkedMan: Rob Grange. He was with Ted in the Amboy Dukes and he followed Derek St. Holmes out the door, after which, as far as I know, he disappeared.

    Great bass player. Every bit as good as Billy Sheehan.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  33. Tsar Nicholas says:

    @merl: FYI, I don’t think wishing someone would commit suicide endears you to all that many people outside of psych wards.

    @Hey Norm: Mitt Romney, perhaps? He’ll be the guy on the ballot this November with the “R” beside his name.

    @anjin-san: How would you know that Fox gives Nugent a platform from which to speak unless you yourself watch Fox? Do you grasp the irony? Fox is in the business of making money off people like you watching their programs.

    As far as the NRA goes, if having a screw loose disqualified someone from being affiliated with an advocacy group then the Sierra Club, Amnesty International, NOW, NARAL, hell, every left-wing group in creation, instantly would cease to exist. Besides, there’s no such thing as “bad publicity” for advocacy groups. The whole purpose is to be noticed. By way of example, and analogy, when liberal idiot students and professors chain themselves to trees to protest logging that’s all good for the likes of the Sierra Club, regardless of the fact that on Main Street they’re shaking their heads and laughing out loud.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 11

  34. James Joyner says:

    @Kathy Kattenburg: I can’t imagine Mitt Romney has much of an idea who Ted Nugent is, other than he’s heard the kids think he’s cool. Even though said kids are in their 40s.

    And, c’mon, there’s simply no reason in the world to suspect Romney harbors thoughts of violence toward the president. We don’t need Romney to disclaim his association with this remark. It’s politically useful to do so, but whether he shares Nugent’s “thoughts” here is hardly a burning question.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 4

  35. Mikey says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: He said they were about “pussy,” not “a pussy.”

    Being from the Detroit area, I’ve got a bit of a soft spot for the guy, but man, has he gone off the deep end lately. My goodness.

    A fond memory: trying to avoid explaining to my late and beloved grandmother what “Wang Dang Sweet Poontang” was about.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  36. Hey Norm says:

    @ TNick….
    Romney? Oh yeah…another old rich white guy.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  37. M. Bouffant says:

    @MarkedMan:

    Rob Grange, who played bass in Nugent’s previous outfit, the Amboy Dukes.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  38. fustian says:

    @michael reynolds: So, branding an entire group of people as “the other” is bad, right?

    What am I to make of this: “Nugent is part of a continuum on the right, ALL singing from the same songbook”.

    It’s like they’re “the other” or something.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 4

  39. anjin-san says:

    @ Tsar

    How would you know that Fox gives Nugent a platform from which to speak unless you yourself watch Fox

    Ummm. Because I can read & I am informed? If Fox was in the business of “making me” watch their programs, they would have long since gone broke. The last time I watched cable news was when Bin Laden was killed.

    You need to consider that you are probably nearly as clever as you think you are.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

  40. RWB says:

    Hasn’t the knuge actually said he wanted to shoot POTUS on stage? W’ s SS investigated Springsteen for some subtle lyrics they thought might be anti-bush, the difference being, the boss did not make a big deal of it. Nugent may actually BE dangerous. He exhibits the same self-importance delusions as Ira Einhorn did.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  41. anjin-san says:

    You need to consider that you are probably not nearly as clever as you think you are.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 4

  42. fustian says:

    I’m no big fan of Mr. Nugent, but my understanding is that the thrust of his argument is that he believes the current administration doesn’t see gun rights the same way he does and Mr. Nugent feels that if he stands his ground on these issues, what with his outrageous personality and all, he might end up in jail or worse.

    And here we have the Secret Service investigating him.

    And he’s crazy why?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 13

  43. Davebo says:

    I can’t imagine Mitt Romney has much of an idea who Ted Nugent is, other than he’s heard the kids think he’s cool.

    If by “kids” you mean people at or near Romney’s age!

    Nugent is, or was, a da*n fine guitar player

    Though Stranglehold did have a nice melodic lead it wasn’t exactly technical. Calling him a good guitar player is extreme overstatement of the skills he’s displayed to date.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  44. PJ says:

    @James Joyner:

    @Kathy Kattenburg: I can’t imagine Mitt Romney has much of an idea who Ted Nugent is, other than he’s heard the kids think he’s cool. Even though said kids are in their 40s.

    And, c’mon, there’s simply no reason in the world to suspect Romney harbors thoughts of violence toward the president. We don’t need Romney to disclaim his association with this remark. It’s politically useful to do so, but whether he shares Nugent’s “thoughts” here is hardly a burning question.

    So either Romney is clueless or he is going for the endorsement from a man with repugnant views that he doesn’t share just because he’ll get votes from it?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1

  45. steve says:

    I got a chain latter today noting that Obama ate dog meat, snake meat and grasshoppers when he was a child. This indicates he is not a “Real American”. Nugent is just another nutcase passing along similar craziness. What is worrisome is that bright people with good jobs are buying into this stuff.

    No one should actually have to apologize, unless they have been advocating for Nugent. This pretend anger over what fringe players say is nuts.

    Steve

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  46. Hey Norm says:

    “A dog is a fine meal.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

  47. mattb says:

    @James Joyner:

    I can’t imagine Mitt Romney has much of an idea who Ted Nugent is, other than he’s heard the kids think he’s cool. Even though said kids are in their 40s.

    Sorry James, now you’re playing a bit loose with the facts…

    According to Nugent, Romney and he spoke before endorsement:
    It was on a phone call with [Romney] earlier today that Nugent gave his blessing. He talked to Romney by phone while he was at a sporting goods store in Michigan “celebrating the orgy of guns and ammos and bows and arrows and camouflage clothing and hunting and fishing and outdoor family supplies.”

    Before endorsing him, Nugent demanded that Romney pledge there would be no new gun laws or restrictions on Second Amendment rights in his administration. Romney obliged. Nugent also warned Romney about the “out of control” U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service.
    [Source: http://www.texastribune.org/texas-politics/2012-presidential-election/nugent-endorses-romney-prefers-real-perry/

    Granted, the Romney campaign has said, since Nugents recent comments came to life, that they did not actively seek the endorsement (see the TPM article I linked to above). At the time, though, they were rather excited about getting the Motor City Madman on-board. Check out the tweet from Tag Romney:

    Ted Nugent endorsed my Dad today. Ted Nugent? How cool is that?! He joins Kid Rock as great Detroit musicians on team Mitt!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  48. Doubter4444 says:

    @fustian:

    What am I to make of this: “Nugent is part of a continuum on the right, ALL singing from the same songbook”.
    It’s like they’re “the other” or something.

    Horseshit.
    Are you really saying that noting that a concerted effort to maintain talking points and a political narrative (which both Ds and Rs do) is the same as the concerted effort going into defaming the POTUS?
    And that that any generalization by anyone means all comments that note a said generalization are the same?
    Really?

    And this:

    I’m no big fan of Mr. Nugent, but my understanding is that the thrust of his argument is that he believes the current administration doesn’t see gun rights the same way he does and Mr. Nugent feels that if he stands his ground on these issues, what with his outrageous personality and all, he might end up in jail or worse.

    And here we have the Secret Service investigating him.

    And he’s crazy why?

    Aside from the “Mr Nugent” fake politeness- do you really think his comments are simply a “difference of opinion on seeing gun rights the same way?”
    Really?
    Here’s a generalization for you: people who can’t say this is stupid and over the line suck.
    Ipso facto, you suck.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 2

  49. Hey Norm says:

    Kid Rock is a great musician?
    What is wrong with Republicans?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

  50. Rick Almeida says:

    @Todd:

    I’d really, really, like to go see REO Speedwagon and Styx at some point during the concert tour they’re doing this summer. But for some reason this bozo will also be with them.

    He was in Damn Yankees with Tommy Shaw of Styx. That’s probably the connection.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  51. Tsar Nicholas says:

    @Hey Norm:

    Romney? Oh yeah…another old rich white guy.

    Wow, that’s a lot of prejudices in one sentence, Norm. FYI, if you said that aloud at work your employer would sit you down and lecture you about discrimination and harassment in the workplace. Ageism. Racism. Companies all the time successfully get sued for that sort of thing. Do you have something against white people? Against seniors? Separate but related topic: Are you envious of Romney’s wealth?

    @anjin-san: You just unwittingly and ironically augmented my point. The fact you know that Fox gives Nugent a platform, by reading and by allegedly being “informed,” ipso facto means that Fox is being covered and read about. That inevitably draws eyeballs, albeit perhaps not your own. That in turn boosts ratings, which in turn boosts ad dollars. Making Fox more money. Thank you for agreeing with me, again.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 5

  52. Ron Beasley says:

    Nugent has been bat $hit crazy for years but crazy people shouldn’t be armed with automatic weapons etc. I would imagine if anyone tries to take them away he will end up dead or in jail.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  53. Moderate Mom says:

    Why would Mitt Romney seek out the endorsement of Ted Nugent? It doesn’t make sense. Nugent is about as relevant as Pee Wee Herman.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4

  54. Hey Norm says:

    @ TNick…
    I do have something against old rich white male suburbanites…they make up the Republican base.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4

  55. Tillman says:

    So, according to newly established protocols, please accept my apologies.

    What’s so new about these protocols? Your average Christian has been apologizing for other Christians for well on a century now. Especially in the last thirty years in this country.

    And we should apologize for each other, because there are pricks who don’t understand what an apology is.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

  56. anjin-san says:

    Thank you for agreeing with me, again.

    If your point is that Fox, the more or less official voice of the GOP will happily peddle hate & slime to make money, then yes, I agree with you.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

  57. Hey Norm says:

    “…Fox, the more or less official voice of the GOP…”

    More or less???

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  58. anjin-san says:

    We don’t need Romney to disclaim his association with this remark.

    Why did we need the Obama campaign to disclaim association on an attack on Ann Romney that was not an attack on Ann Romney made by a person who has nothing to do with the Obama campaign? Republicans were very insistent about it, your party’s candidate made every effort to make hay about it. How is this different? Clearly, Nugent’s remarks are more offensive by orders of magnitude.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

  59. mattb says:

    @Moderate Mom:
    Tell that to the republican base… err… tea party conservatives who listen to Glenn Beck and other Nuge-friendly media outlets. Because of his anti-Obama and pro-Gun positions, there are a lot of conservative “gun clingers” who are more than happy to look past his draft dodging.

    I’m sure that someone on Team Romney felt that picking up Nugent’s seal of approval was a way to appeal to the NRA, rural base types that he’s always struggled with.

    Personally, it’s too bad that Romney didn’t take a page from Obama and simply say that “Nugents a Jack Ass” (a la Kanye) and move on with things

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  60. fustian says:

    Just for grins I did a quick google search to see if I could tell how many times Mr. Nugent was on Fox. I was led to a website with his actual schedule over the last two years or so. By my quick unofficial count Mr. Nugent was on Fox twice and on CNN three times in the last two years.

    I’m hoping you’ll join me in pilloring CNN for continuing to push Mr. Nugent and his views on us while congratulating Fox for their relative restraint.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  61. G.A. says:

    One more reason to vote for Obama.

    lol, what are the others besides Ted committing suicide?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  62. G.A. says:

    You guys(and er,gals) should have been at the Gwar concert during the Bush/Clinton election year…..lol….

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  63. G.A. says:

    I got a chain latter today noting that Obama ate dog meat, snake meat and grasshoppers when he was a child. This indicates he is not a “Real American”.

    No this indicates that he eats puppies…..

    I can hear Sheets Bird now-BARBARIAN!!!BARBARIAN!!!!!BARBARIAN!!!!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  64. Dazedandconfused says:

    It’s the NRA. More members if they can get people ginned up and/or paranoid, so they are framing this election as an ARM-a-geddon.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

  65. Tsar Nicholas says:

    @Hey Norm:

    I do have something against old rich white male suburbanites…they make up the Republican base.

    Really? That’s amazing. You would think, then, the GOP would fare a lot better in places like Connecticut, Massachusetts and Rhode Island.

    Certainly you’re aware that Connecticut is the wealthiest state per capita in the entire nation, consists largely of suburbs and exurbs, and that it has much lower than average percentages of blacks and Latinos, therefore a much higher than average percentage of whites. Why then, pray tell, hasn’t Connecticut voted for a Republican presidential nominee since 1988? Similar questions can be asked of Massachusetts and Rhode Island. Hell, Massachusetts even is more of a head scratcher. That’s a very white, wealthy, old, suburbanite state, yet over the past generation only Reagan prevailed there for the GOP. Why is that?

    Are you sure you’re accurately describing the GOP base and not the liberal Democrat base?

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  66. An Interested Party says:

    I’m a black Jew at a Nazi-Klan rally…

    This is the most offensive thing this loser said…to actually compare himself like that? This is of the same piece as some of his fellow travelers who constantly play the victim card…what this lowlife fails to realize is that he wouldn’t have lasted five minutes as a black man in the Jim Crow South and he wouldn’t have lasted five seconds as a Jewish man in Nazi Germany…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

  67. Hey Norm says:

    @ Nickie…
    Sorry…old rich suburban white male idiots.
    Like Nugent, and Romney.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

  68. Davebo says:

    Certainly you’re aware that Connecticut is the wealthiest state per capita in the entire nationCertainly you’re aware that Connecticut is the wealthiest state per capita in the entire nation

    No I’m not, probably because it isn’t. But it is a respectable #3 behind Maryland and New Jersey.

    I must say Tsar you never disappoint in the misconception department. It’s almost like you work at it!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  69. Tsar Nicholas says:

    @Hey Norm: Ah, I see. So according to you the GOP base consists of rich, white, suburban, old idiots. Hmm. The GOP has won a helluva lot of major elections over the past 40 years, Norm. Obviously, then, there are quite a lot of these “idiots” out there. So, therefore, here’s another question for you: How have so many “idiots,” as you say, become so wealthy and successful? Are they idiot savants?

    @Davebo: Chief, I didn’t realize you were Norm’s valet. Good career choice. Also, FYI, you might say toe-may-toe, I might say ta-ma-to.

    Using median household incomes you’re correct; Connecticut merely ranks 3rd in the nation. Using mean incomes, however, Connecticut ranks numero uno. Using a broad-based definition of “wealth,” including incomes, poverty rates and net household equity, Connecticut ranks numero uno. That aside, I could not help but notice that you failed in your valet duties for Norm, in that you didn’t answer my underlying question. So here are a few more questions for you to duck and dodge: Why are the whitest and richest states Democrat strongholds? Why do places like Beverly Hills, Manhattan, Dedham, Pacific Heights, Chevy Chase, Auburn Hills, etc., vote in lock step for Democrats? How did the Democrat Party become the party of rich white folks?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

  70. MarkedMan says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Ozarkhillbilly. Good point. Fortunately I was asleep 15 minutes later.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  71. Hey Norm says:

    Yeah Nickie…you have to be smart to get rich.
    Or you could make it the old fashioned way…like Romney did.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  72. Hey Norm says:

    Actually Nickie…and this is complex so try to keep up…the Democratic party is diverse. Rich white folk. Rich colored people. Poor people of all persuasions. Wall Streeters. Union Workers. It’s called, metaphorically, a big tent.
    Feel free to look up the prime demographic of the GOP for comparison.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

  73. michael reynolds says:

    @fustian:

    You seem confused about the difference between actions and identities. Judging people by what they say and do is legit. Judging people by what they are – gay, straight, Jew, gentile – is less so. Deciding to label someone as un-American for no reason other than a middle name and a skin color is contemptible.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

  74. Jenos Idanian says:

    Sigh… I see I’m gonna have to explain things.

    First, Nugent’s nuts. But he’s not dangerous nuts.

    Now, here’s what he was saying.

    Nugent (and a lot of others, including me) think that Obama wants to tighten gun control. He’s on the record saying so. And of all the crazy theories behind Fast & Furious, the least crazy was that it was to ratchet up pressure for tougher gun control laws.

    Plus, the last time we had a president who supported more gun control, we ended up with the massacres at Ruby Ridge and Waco.

    What Nugent is saying is, if Obama is re-elected, he expects a more overt push for tougher gun control laws that will affect him, and what he feels are his 2nd Amendment rights. And if that happens, he intends to resist attempts to confiscate his guns or arrest him, he will resist those attempts to the point where he will be killed or jailed.

    Nothing in that constituted a threat — direct or indirect — against Obama.

    This is so stupid, I can barely believe it. But then I remember — “too stupid” has never been a disqualifying quality for their talking points and schemes and ginned-up “controversies.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 8

  75. fustian says:

    All I know is that there are a lot of people on this blog that make unflattering generalizations about conservatives. And it’s people that, from their comments, clearly have NO IDEA what conservatives think or what they are about. You guys clearly hate us. It’s really interesting. I keep wondering what causes all of this enmity.

    For example, the conservatives I know were fairly chuffed about the notion of a black President. To a man, all of us thought that, while we’re not too keen on most Democratic policies, we figured that most Presidents don’t really do that much damage really, and with the economy down the tubes, Obama’s hands were pretty tied really.

    But now, we’re fairly stunned. The conversation on race has actually deteriorated, Obama has spent money we don’t have at unprecedented rates, and we have never seen an economy so mis-managed. We’re none too keen on a foreign policy that has our President bowing to anyone that isn’t an ally, mispronouncing “Malvinas”, wondering about the Canadian President, trying to learn a little Austrian, and killing a bunch of Mexicans and border guards in some stupid scheme to convince Americans they need more gun control. We don’t care for a guy that tells us he’d rather punish well off people than collect more tax revenue. We think the Buffett rule is counterproductive and unserious, and we’re wondering how a guy that hasn’t produced a budget in 3 years gets off criticizing anything proposed by Republicans. We think the problem is that our government has gotten way too large for us to pay for and that idiotic notions of grand bargains containing tax increases turn into immediate tax increases and program cuts that never quite happen. We think Texas is run better than Illinois and Utah is surging while California is dying. We think that all forms of Marxism and socialism are the crack cocaine of political thought.

    Now, we may be right or wrong about these things, but we have legitimate beefs with the way Obama is running the government and they have nothing to do with his middle name or whether he’s black, blue, chartreuse, mauve, or plaid.

    I just think it’s pretty nervy to demonize us with a false claim that we are demonizing the President for being black. It shows a startling lack of awareness common to every last one of you lefties (that was sarcasm in case you missed it).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 7

  76. michael reynolds says:

    @Jenos Idanian:

    Do me a favor and list the gun control legislation Obama has supported.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

  77. An Interested Party says:

    Nugent (and a lot of others, including me) think that Obama wants to tighten gun control.

    Some people think the President is a Muslim…some people think the President wasn’t born in this country…all of these people, just like Nugent and those that think like him, are misinformed fools…

    What Nugent is saying is, if Obama is re-elected, he expects a more overt push for tougher gun control laws that will affect him, and what he feels are his 2nd Amendment rights. And if that happens, he intends to resist attempts to confiscate his guns or arrest him, he will resist those attempts to the point where he will be killed or jailed.

    Oh yes, this poor oppressed person…he’s so in the same place as blacks in the Jim Crow South and Jews in Nazi Germany…

    All I know is that there are a lot of people on this blog that make unflattering generalizations about conservatives.

    And others make unflattering generalizations about liberals and Democrats…why don’t you think about what is the cause of all that enmity…

    Obama has spent money we don’t have at unprecedented rates, and we have never seen an economy so mis-managed.

    The same is certainly true of his not so illustrious predecessor…were you as equally stunned with him?

    We’re none too keen on a foreign policy that has our President bowing to anyone that isn’t an ally, mispronouncing “Malvinas”, wondering about the Canadian President, trying to learn a little Austrian, and killing a bunch of Mexicans and border guards in some stupid scheme to convince Americans they need more gun control. We don’t care for a guy that tells us he’d rather punish well off people than collect more tax revenue. We think the Buffett rule is counterproductive and unserious, and we’re wondering how a guy that hasn’t produced a budget in 3 years gets off criticizing anything proposed by Republicans. We think the problem is that our government has gotten way too large for us to pay for and that idiotic notions of grand bargains containing tax increases turn into immediate tax increases and program cuts that never quite happen. We think Texas is run better than Illinois and Utah is surging while California is dying. We think that all forms of Marxism and socialism are the crack cocaine of political thought.

    Oh, excuse me, I thought you might want to have a reasonable discussion…I now realize you suffer from ODS, what with your ridiculous ideas…with all due respect, you really shouldn’t be too shocked that conservatives like you are ridiculed around here…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 2

  78. Doubter4444 says:

    @An Interested Party:

    We’re none too keen on a foreign policy that has our President bowing to anyone that isn’t an ally, mispronouncing “Malvinas”, wondering about the Canadian President, trying to learn a little Austrian, and killing a bunch of Mexicans and border guards in some stupid scheme to convince Americans they need more gun control. We don’t care for a guy that tells us he’d rather punish well off people than collect more tax revenue. We think the Buffett rule is counterproductive and unserious, and we’re wondering how a guy that hasn’t produced a budget in 3 years gets off criticizing anything proposed by Republicans. We think the problem is that our government has gotten way too large for us to pay for and that idiotic notions of grand bargains containing tax increases turn into immediate tax increases and program cuts that never quite happen. We think Texas is run better than Illinois and Utah is surging while California is dying. We think that all forms of Marxism and socialism are the crack cocaine of political thought.

    Oh, excuse me, I thought you might want to have a reasonable discussion…I now realize you suffer from ODS, what with your ridiculous ideas…with all due respect, you really shouldn’t be too shocked that conservatives like you are ridiculed around here…

    You know I was going respond to this inane comment – but you did a better job…
    I just don’t understand the stupidity… yes, that’s not nice to say, but the amount of lies and misinformation and assumptions in the post by “faustian” boggles.
    I’m not a hard core leftie, and I don’t visit Democratic Underground or Kos and I don’t even go to the Huffington Post that often so I can’t say that the blinkered stupidity there is less that what this this guy is spouting, but man that’s a high bar – Faustian, do you not get that what you are saying is false?
    Are you trolling? I have to think so… I know many believe this stuff, but to see it here, in the wild, not domesticated at Townhall or the Hot Air or any of the other nonsense sites really stands out.
    So, I’ll say it again:
    Do you really believe that the President of the United States hates this country?
    Not policy differences (vast as they may be to you and your ilk), but actually hates the country and wants to bring it down?
    Do you really believe that the President of the United States bows to “anyone that isn’t an ally”?
    Do you really believe that the President of the United States mispronouncing “Malvinas” is anything other that a simple slip and indicates some nefarious purpose?
    Do you really believe that the President of the United States would rather punish well off people than collect more tax revenue?

    And after all that bull – do you really wonder where all the enmity comes from?
    Look in the mirror.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  79. Is the media and everyone else intentionally lying about what prompted the Secret Service investigation? Nugent referred to President Obama as a coyote that should be shot:

    “It isn’t the enemy that ruined America. It’s good people who bent over and let the enemy in,” he said. “If the coyote’s in your living room pissing on your couch, it’s not the coyote’s fault. It’s your fault for not shooting him.”

    http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2012/04/ted-nugent-compares-president-obama-to-a-coyote-that-needs-to-be-shot

    And as someone previously pointed, this isn’t the first time he’s said something like this. Back in 2008, he said: “Obama, he’s a piece of shit. I told him to suck on my machine gun”, while holding a firearm.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  80. Jenos Idanian says:

    @michael reynolds: Sorry, michael, not gonna play your game here and answer your very narrow qualifier. But I will cite examples where Obama has indicated his preference for gun control:

    — His quote: “(s)o it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

    — His statement to Sarah Brady that his administration would work on gun control “under the radar.”

    — His filling out a questionnaire as a 1996 State Senate candidate where he said he wanted to ban all handguns. (Which he lied about and said “an aide” filled it out incorrectly, but it turned out that the questionnaire had a hand-written answer — in Obama’s handwriting)

    And then there’s this list, which does actually answer your ridiculous little qualifier.

    So yeah, Nugent’s nuts. But he’s not completely out of touch with reality on this point. Obama’s support for gun rights is as much fiction as his opposition to gay marriage.

    Nice try, but fail. Still lagged from the tour?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 8

  81. Jenos Idanian says:

    @Timothy Watson: No, you’re confused.

    1) Those prior statements ARE worthy of the Secret Service having a little chat with Mr. Nugent.

    2) This latest “outrage” is NOT worthy of the Secret Service’s attention.

    Personally, I see it as a sign Nugent might have learned his lesson from those prior statements, and this one actually represents him dialing it back a little. Not much, but just enough.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

  82. James Joyner says:

    @Timothy Watson: The coyote thing strikes me as metaphor–a call for replacing Obama in November, not a call for violence. The machine gun thing is violent posturing, if a disgusting variety, and directed at the time to a US Senator running for president.

    The most disturbing thing to me in either statement is the notion that Obama and company are “the enemy.” It’s that precept that sets the stage for violence moreso than some old gasbag talking tough.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  83. Jenos Idanian says:

    @An Interested Party: Let’s take just one point that has been quietly ignored by the vast majority of the media: Obama’s reference to the British-Argentine dispute over a certain set of islands in the South Atlantic. If you support the British (or the status quo), you call them “the Falklands.” If you favor Argentina, they are “the Malvinas.”

    Obama found a third course: he called them “the Maldives.”

    Please, present a conclusion that isn’t “Obama meant to indicate his support for Argentina, but instead just made himself look stupid.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4

  84. Hey Norm says:

    Jenos and the paranoid wing, including the NRA, think Obama is going to take away our guns. The opposite has happened. Gun control has become looser. Does that change their mind? No…it makes the voices yell louder.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  85. fustian says:
  86. mattb says:

    @fustian:

    And further, the original comment was directed at the notion that ALL conservatives hate Obama because he’s black and that we’re trying to set him up as the other.

    And where exactly did anyone bring that point up in this thread? Or for that matter in any recent comment? The only one here who seems to be hung up on this unrelated point is you.

    As most of us have said, we don’t think ALL conservatives hate Obama because he’s black. There is clear evidence to support that SOME conservatives sure seem to have an issue with this.

    However, you’re entire move seems pretty much designed to deny the second point (that there are Some conservatives who are using racial imagry to attack the president) by creating the stupid strawman that ALL conservatives are racist.

    I hope you are equally concerned when conservative talkers say things like “all liberals want to destroy the country.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  87. Hey Norm says:

    Fustian:
    The problem is that your “litany of issues” are a litany of falsehoods and Fox News talking points. It’s terribly hard to take any of them seriously. If your opinion is based on mis-information and factual errors…then your opinion is…well I think you can see where I’m going….

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  88. @Jenos Idanian:

    First, Nugent’s nuts. But he’s not dangerous nuts.

    Which describes pretty much every attempted presidential assassins in this nation’s history. Everyone thought they were harmless cranks until it was too late. If you know anything about the personalities of people of Leon Czolgosz, Charles Guiteau, Samuel Byck, Giuseppe Zangara, Lee Harvey Oswald, etc. then Nugent fits the pattern perfectly.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  89. Hey Norm says:

    @ Stormy…
    I frankly think Nugent is a harmless blowhard like the rest of the Republican cowards. They thump their chests and talk big right up until the rubber hits the road. Then they dodge the draft or get education deferments or snort coke in the Air Nat’l Guard barracks or whatever it takes to keep their own arses out of danger. Danger is for other peoples kids. But your point is important…Nugent needs to go through the process of being investigated to insure that he is not the extremely rare Republican who is willing and able to back up the bluster.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  90. fustian says:

    Look, if all conservatives are part of a continuum to make Obama the other, I’m having a hard time seeing that it’s just some of us who are doing that. According to you guys, we’re either doing that, or we’re part of the continuum, which I assume means that we’re on board with it. Maybe because we’re dastardly that way that we’ll spew nonsense we know is wrong and destructive, because, hey, that’s just the way we roll.

    Please. Spare me.

    I think it’s hugely amusing that you people continually whine about the fact that no conservative will come talk with you and I try to engage with substantive issues and I’m called a liar and inane.

    Listen to yourselves people.

    Can’t you see that your definition of “intelligent conservative” is “someone that pretty much agrees with me, except maybe for some minor point and we’ll soon set the poor slope-head back on the right path”?

    And, as a matter of fact, a few of my conservative friends really are mystified by you lefties. I tell them that many of you are simply optimizing on different things than we do. We believe largely on organizing a society on the notion of personal responsibility. You guys on what you would call “social justice”, but I would call “class war”. I commend many of you for the fact that you care about those less fortunate and try to do things to help. I just think much of what you propose is the wrong way to go about it, but I will grant that many start from genuine empathy.

    An example may be instructive. A conservative and a pinko (sorry, liberal) see a homeless person begging in the street. The conservative believes that if they give money to the homeless person, they trap them in the streets. The liberal sees someone in need and empties their pocket.

    Both are moral positions and both are concerned about the person they saw. Neither is especially greedy or evil, and it’s difficult to prove that one side is right and one side is wrong.

    I will say that the radical left doesn’t like this country. They see it as the root of most of the evil in the world and they want to see it radically changed or violently ended. Interestingly I see much the same thing at the extreme right. In my mind, those idiots meet out at infinity. Both groups believe the average person can’t be trusted to see the world the right way and a powerful state must enforce the right way of thinking. Both sides agree on that much, they just disagree on the “religion”.

    One of the many things conservatives find dismaying about Obama is that in his formative years, he did hang out with just these sorts of extremists. We find this extremely troubling and would have preferred that “our press” would have vetted the man a lot more. While you guys rail at Fox news, we see most of the rest of the press as completely in the tank for democrats. As evidence I would cite Journolist and the fact that they carried water for John Edwards long after that fact it was clear just how slimy he was. You guys really dodged a bullet there.

    I’ll further admit that I find the notion of unbridled captalism scary. Not as scary as unbridled socialism, but still scary. In my world, both points of view need to fight it out in the middle and we need to continually make course corrections when we travel too far in the wrong direction. The minute one side “wins”, we all lose. I will further submit that my personal belief is that we’ve slid a little too far to the left and need a course correction that I very much hope is coming. Your mileage may vary.

    Listen, I’m sure you can find some sort of low-life that styles themself conservative that is a genuine racist. I don’t personally, know any, but I’m sure they exist. But we don’t have a monopoly on that. You have plenty of racists on your side too and not all of them are white. And just for fun, I’ll remind you that the reason the Republican party pulled out of what became the democrat party was because you guys supported slavery. Lincoln was NOT a democrat for a reason.

    What I’m telling you is that there are substantive issues on which conservatives disagree with Obama and his admistration. We really don’t care whether he’s black or white. If you think this is solely about race, then you are sadly mistaken and I recommend you leave the lefty echo chamber now and then.

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  91. Hey Norm says:

    “…We believe largely on organizing a society on the notion of personal responsibility…”

    Then why are Republicans so against the PPACA which requires the personal responsibility you claim to support so strongly?
    You see Fustian…my problem with Republicans…is that their actions do not match their words. The words “humble foreign policy” mean nation building to Republicans. The words “preserve Medicare” mean eliminating Medicare as it currently exists. To Republicans the words “fiscal responsibilty” mean debt as far as you can see.

    And if you think this fantasy is instructive:

    “…An example may be instructive. A conservative and a pinko (sorry, liberal) see a homeless person begging in the street. The conservative believes that if they give money to the homeless person, they trap them in the streets. The liberal sees someone in need and empties their pocket…”

    …then I seriously doubt you understand the meaning of the word instructive.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  92. mattb says:

    @fustian:

    Listen, I’m sure you can find some sort of low-life that styles themself conservative that is a genuine racist. I don’t personally, know any…

    I will say that the radical left doesn’t like this country. They see it as the root of most of the evil in the world and they want to see it radically changed or violently ended.

    Listen, I’m sure you can find some sort of low-life that styles themself liberal that genuinely hate the country. I don’t personally, know any…

    I don’t think anyone has denied that there are substantive issues that separate liberals and conservatives. And I think most of us believe that most these positions can be held in good faith.

    Ok. Cool. Kum ba yah and all.

    So in the attempt to have actual thoughtful conversations, can you stop lecturing us all about what ALL Liberals think or how ALL conservatives aren’t racist, and actually discuss those substantive issues, you know, laying out points and facts.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2

  93. Rob in CT says:

    Nugent’s a loser. Meh.

    The Malvinas thing:

    Was this said in the context of a summit with a bunch of S. American countries? Basically sucking up to the Argentines a little bit (without actually doing anything for them)? Which he then screwed up, by saying Maldives? Clumsy, sure. You can indeed put that in the minus column. It’s a very minor thing, though. Along with other verbal slip ups (Austrian, etc). Every President, especially our last one!, occasionally slips up in such ways. Policy matters a whole lot more.

    Most of the rest of the RW grievance list that faustian rattled off is even sillier:

    The economic situation sucks because we are suffering the after-effects of the worst financial panic since the Great Depression. Obama Administration/Congressional Dem policy has been so-so, but no Adminstration was going to turn the economy around quickly and painlessly. A GOP administration would have opted for a stimulus that was weighted more heavily toward tax cuts (and likely high-end tax cuts at that), but that too results in more debt (note also: “more weighted toward tax cuts” because of course the 2009 Dem stimulus was roughly 1/3 tax cuts).

    Bowing to people: this is more of the ridiculous “apology tour” nonsense.

    Fast ‘n Furious was a op that was underway for some time, and I don’t think it had anything to do with a seekrit Dem plan to push gun control. A screwup, certainly. Obama Admin policy on the drug war sucks, just like preceeding administrations and, almost certainly, suceeding ones for the foreseeable future.

    Restoring progressivity to the upper end of the tax code isn’t punishment. Also, any realistic plan for raising more revenue will involve higher taxes on the top earners. The Buffett Rule is certainly a political move to highlight just how fanatically the GOP will fight any tax increase on the rich (but will simultaneously fight against a payroll tax cut extension and fight for buffet-rule-sized cuts to food stamps). It’s worked pretty well to illustrate the modern GOP’s priorities: “shared sacrifice” means more high-end tax cuts coupled with deep cuts to the safety net (but not for already old people, heh), which if you believe in magical fairy dust will result in a balanced budget a couple of decades from now. Then entire GOP strategy since losing the 2008 election has been to prevent the prime beneficiaries of their policies (the top ~5% of earners) from having to pay the bill (for the wars, the unfunded/underfunded programs, and the fallout from the 2008-2009 financial crisis and resulting recession). That’s it. All else is theatre.

    As for grand bargains, neither side trusts the other at all, and that’s the problem in a nutshell. Republicans think Dems will reneg on spending cuts. Dems think Republicans will just cut taxes the next time they’re in power (and mostly likely do it the same way they did it in recent memory: tax cuts without spending cuts, and promises about how the magical tax cut fairy will produce such economic growth that it’ll all be fine). Hence, no grand bargain. Hence no budget passage.

    But what really takes the cake is trying to pin a deterioration of “the conversation on race” on Obama. Absolutely effing amazing.

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  94. Hey Norm says:

    Fustian:
    If you are concerned about being called…

    “…a liar and inane…”

    then you shouldn’t type stuff like;

    “… We’re none too keen on a foreign policy that has our President bowing to anyone that isn’t an ally…”

    You claim to want an intelligent conversation about diverse viewpoints…but all you are doing is spewing falsehoods and talking points. You want to have an intelligent conversation…bring it. So far you haven’t.

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  95. @Hey Norm:

    Nugent needs to go through the process of being investigated to insure that he is not the extremely rare Republican who is willing and able to back up the bluster.

    Actually, this is kinda my point. If you look at the history, people don’t actually try to assassinate the President for political reasons. They do it because they’re crazy. So the question isn’t whether Nugent is courageous enough to be a concer, it’s whether he’s nutty enough.

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  96. @mattb:

    That was the key. James wrote a funny piece (bravo!) but it wouldn’t have been so funny if James had sought Nugent as an OTB contributor.

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  97. @michael reynolds:

    Do me a favor and list the gun control legislation Obama has supported.

    More importantly, would Romney be any better than Oabma? Romney has “Fudd” written all over him (Fudd is a derogatory term in the gun community who only cares about hunting and is happy to support all kinds of restrictions on other types of gun owners).

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  98. Jenos Idanian says:

    @Hey Norm: Hey, Norm! You wanna point out where I said that I believe Obama “wants to take away our guns?” Hell, I don’t even own any!

    I was presenting what Nugent meant and what Nugent believes, not saying I agreed with him. But the evidence is quite clear — Obama’s about as sincere in his respect for the 2nd Amendment as he is in his opposition to gay marriage. In both cases, pretty much everyone knows he’s lying out of political expedience.

    I gave plenty of evidence that Obama favors tougher gun control — even how he once stated (on a questionnaire) that he wanted to ban all handguns. I didn’t draw any conclusions, I just let the facts speak for themselves.

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  99. Jenos Idanian says:

    @Stormy Dragon: Would Romney be any better? Maybe, maybe not. I seriously doubt it.

    But with Romney, it’s at least questionable. With Obama, we know exactly what we’re getting.

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  100. Jenos Idanian says:

    @Rob in CT: Was this said in the context of a summit with a bunch of S. American countries? Basically sucking up to the Argentines a little bit (without actually doing anything for them)? Which he then screwed up, by saying Maldives? Clumsy, sure. You can indeed put that in the minus column. It’s a very minor thing, though. Along with other verbal slip ups (Austrian, etc). Every President, especially our last one!, occasionally slips up in such ways. Policy matters a whole lot more.

    It was totally wrong in two ways. First, it isn’t “sucking up to the Argentines a little bit,” it’s sending signals that we support them in their attempt to take the islands. The Islands are British by history, force of arms, and the express will of the inhabitants; the Argentine claim is so thin, as to be nonexistent. Further, Britain has been one of our greatest allies well over a century (the last time we had a major disagreement with them was when they backed the South in the Civil War, and they’ve been on our side pretty much ever since then), while Argentina is busy nationalizing corporations and being a general pain in the ass. Giving them encouragement is, however, consistent with Obama’s general unspoken policy of treating the British with contempt.

    Second, as you noted, the previous president (and his father) were noted for their verbal gaffes. However, in Bush II’s case, it was cited as a sign of his lack of intelligence. Well, I haven’t seen much evidence of Obama’s actual intelligence, despite claims to the contrary, so this fits in with a long, long line of verbal missteps that say to me that he is nowhere near as smart as his backers say he is.

    Don’t make me come up with a list.

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  101. anjin-san says:

    Carter Mondale Dukakis Clinton Gore Clinton Obama is gonna take yer guns!

    A mind is, indeed, a terrible thing to waste…

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  102. mattb says:

    @Jenos Idanian:

    I gave plenty of evidence that Obama favors tougher gun control — even how he once stated (on a questionnaire) that he wanted to ban all handguns. I didn’t draw any conclusions, I just let the facts speak for themselves.

    Fair, but if you are emphasizing “plenty of evidence” then it’s also fair to mention that there is “plenty of evidence” that Obama won’t take away anyone’s guns.

    In four years as President can you name any new federal gun regulations that have been enacted that in anyway impinge on ownership? Here’s one summary of the last four years:

    While the final chapter of the Obama administration’s impact on gun rights will not be written until the president leaves office in 2013 or 2017, the story through much of his first term in office was a neutral one. Congress did not take up serious consideration of new gun control laws, nor did Obama ask them to. When Republicans regained control of the House of Representatives in the 2010 midterm, chances of far-reaching gun control laws being enacted were essentially squashed.

    http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/a/Barack-Obama-Gun-Control.htm

    Much like a number of fantasies about “what Obama will do in his second term”, the entire idea that Obama is going to take away your guns is, frankly, paranoid fantasy. The fact is, other than his personal beliefs about gun control, there is no serous evidence to back up these phobias.

    And as for personal beliefs, I’m sure that a number of presidents since Roosevelt felt they deserved third terms. However, there are those pesky institutions in place that prevent us from being beholden to every personal belief a president has.

    It’s frankly sad how so many conservatives (not to mention liberals) are simultaneously enamored of the power of the Constitution and constantly apoplectic that it’s going to fail at any moment.

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  103. @anjin-san:

    Clinton did actually pass anti-firearms laws: the import ban, the assault weapon ban, etc.

    And those laws are considered one of the major factors leading to the Republican take over in 1994, which is why Democrats have pretty much ignored the issue at the national level ever since.

    Obama is, before all else, a pragmatist. He might prefer to restrict firearm ownership if there was a way to do so at no cost, but he shown repeatedly he’s not going to risk anything to do it. I’m far more worried about Romney (like Bush ’43 before him) trying to renew the AWB to show how moderate and bipartisan he can be than I am about Obama.

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  104. Jenos Idanian says:

    @mattb: I don’t think you and I are that far apart here. We both seem to agree that Obama, based on his past statements and actions, would like to toughen gun-control laws. I’d go further and say he’s also willing to use regulations in place of laws to achieve it. But we both think he’s enough of a realist to know he can’t pull off anywhere near as much as he likes.

    Where Nugent goes off into whacko land is he seems to genuinely believe that Obama will not only try the most extreme form of gun control, but actually succeed at getting it put in place. And Nugent is ready to resist that to the death, if need be.

    All I will say in Nugent’s defense is that 1) his belief is not totally fantastic, but rooted in some reality, and 2) he’s almost certainly no physical threat to Obama.

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  105. anjin-san says:

    @ Stormy

    I like guns. Been shooting since I was 8. I own several.

    That being said, I can see no, repeat, no reason for a citizen to own the kind of weapons that were subject to the assault weapon ban. We do need to have a reasonable body of law around these deadly items.

    So were is the bar here? Any type of legislation around guns is “taking yer guns”? Should my next door neighbor be able to legally own a fully automatic AK-47?

    I more or less agree with you about Obama’s position. He is pragmatic, and that’s what a pragmatist does. Look at Reagan & abortion.

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  106. anjin-san says:

    the entire idea that Obama is going to take away your guns is, frankly, paranoid fantasy.

    Was it only 4 years ago that we were hearing about the specter of mass arrests, Acorn agents run amok, and so on?

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  107. fustian says:

    Obama bowed to Japan’s emperor, the Saudi king and Hu Jintao. Japan is nominally an ally, but the call is tougher with the other two.

    Many of us were not impressed.

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  108. DeeDee Garcia Blase says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    I completely agree with Stormy Dragon. So much I wrote about it. I’m disappointed in the NRA for not eliminating Ted Nugent from their board. Did the NRA forget how Lee Harvey Oswald bought a weapon from their own NRA magazine?

    According to the Violence Policy Center:
    “When NRA Executive Vice President Franklin Orth told this story to a Senate staffer in the 1960s, he added, “Please don’t tell anybody because we don’t want to be hung with having been involved in producing the ammunition that killed the President.”

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  109. anjin-san says:

    the Saudi king

    Oh him. The guy Pres. Bush held hands with and kissed.

    Don’t remember a peep about it from conservatives.

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  110. G.A. says:

    And where exactly did anyone bring that point up in this thread?

    Harry did it…… :) Like how the sun comes up:)…

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  111. fustian says:

    @Hey Norm:

    Then why are Republicans so against the PPACA which requires the personal responsibility you claim to support so strongly?

    This is your example of a society built on personal responsibility? Where the government mandates that you buy insurance and decides what health care will cost and what health treatments it decides it can afford to grant you? Seriously?

    Personally I’m against it because I’ve personally experienced health care in England, Holland, and Canada. Horrors!

    First, understand that my health insurance is pretty great. When I have an athletic injury I don’t have to spend a minutes time deciding, my doctor just sends me to get an MRI. And not just any MRI, I get to go to the stand up one. Why can we do that? Because my insurance pays and cost to me doesn’t enter into the decision at all. To me this is a big part of the reason health care is so expensive. No skin in the game. If my insurance were structured differently where catastrophic care was covered and day to day care required I make some financial choices, I guarantee that the cost of health care would come down because, like everyone else I would be forced to make intelligent trade-offs.

    My understanding of ObamaCare (and no one really understands it) is that the government ultimately will decide prices. It is set up for insurance companies to fail and the government to step in and give us de facto single payer. That’s pretty much where we all lose. Command and control economies always fail since they are unable to set prices efficiently

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  112. fustian says:

    @anjin-san:

    Oh him. The guy Pres. Bush held hands with and kissed.

    Don’t remember a peep about it from conservatives.

    There we go with the general statements again.

    Many of us were none to impressed by that move either.

    And just for the record, we were scandalized by spending under the Bush administration. Sure after 9/11 no one was watching the purse strings too closely, but at the end of his administration support for Bush from conservatives dropped substantially. Personally I always thought he made a deal with the democratic congress in which they supported his war effort in exchange for his promise not to veto spending bills.

    The real fall for Bush started with his attempt to put that lady friend of the family into the Supreme Court. Bush tried to wink that she would vote the right way if Roe v Wade came up, but conservative were truly offended. You have no idea how upset conservatives were over that little move. They wanted someone qualified and smart that would be less likely to find penumbras in the Constitution than some of the other Justices. His last two picks were significantly better for us. Your mileage may vary, of course.

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  113. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: That being said, I can see no, repeat, no reason for a citizen to own the kind of weapons that were subject to the assault weapon ban. We do need to have a reasonable body of law around these deadly items.

    Funny, I remember the assault weapons ban. And it had nothing to do with fully-automatic weapons like you alluded to. In fact, most of the things limited by the ban were pretty much cosmetic. Here’s the full list of items cited in the ban:

    Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

    Folding or telescoping stock
    Pistol grip
    Bayonet mount
    Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
    Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device which enables the launching or firing of rifle grenades)

    Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

    Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
    Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor
    Barrel shroud that can be used as a hand-hold
    Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
    A semi-automatic version of an automatic firearm

    Semi-automatic shotguns with two or more of the following:

    Folding or telescoping stock
    Pistol grip
    Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
    Detachable magazine

    Pistol grip? Bayonet mount? Flash suppressor? Overweight pistols?

    Those who called it the “scary-looking guns ban” were right.

    And since it lapsed, just how many such guns have been used in crimes? Not counting, of course, those the Obama administration supplied to Mexico’s drug cartels.

    You say you own several guns. I never have owned one. And it seems I know a few things about guns — in particular the law you cited — that you don’t. Funny thing there…

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  114. Jenos Idanian says:

    @fustian: You gotta pay attention. anjin isn’t saying that conservatives never criticized Bush, he’s saying he “doesn’t remember” it happening. It’s because he’s trained himself to blot out anything and everything that conflicts with his preconceptions and prejudices and stereotypes. Bringing up examples like Harriet Myers or No Child Left Behind or his support for the bailouts doesn’t do any good, because he’s blotted them out so thoroughly, he can’t bring himself to believe they ever happened now.

    One final example: a lot of us were not happy with Bush’s profligate spending. But since anjin doesn’t remember the criticisms of that (usually couched not in specific terms of “Bush’s spending,” but “federal spending” in general), we aren’t allowed to be upset at Obama’s taking Bush’s bad spending habits and cranking them up to 1100. If we do, we get called hypocrites and hyperpartisans and racists — because we don’t conform to his fantasy world.

    Kind of sad, really…

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  115. @anjin-san:

    We do need to have a reasonable body of law around these deadly items.

    Yes, but the laws passed under the Clinton administration were not reasonable. I have, for example, a rifle for which I must keep track of what country every piece in it came from. It was made in New Jersey, but is only considered domestic as long as it has 18 or less foreign parts in it. If it ever should gather a 19th foreign part, it magically becomes an illegally imported rifle (despite being made in New Jersey) and I become a federal felon for owning it.

    There is no legitmate law enforcement purpose for this rule. It, like many of our gun regulations, exists only to make owning firearms a pain in the ass to discourage people from exercising a constitutional right.

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  116. Jenos Idanian says:

    @Stormy Dragon: Hey, if you ever really wanna live dangerously and show what a rebel you are, I can hook you up with this Japanese-made bayonet lug…

    No guarantees that it won’t send you on a crazed murder rampage, though.

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  117. Jenos Idanian says:

    Oh, and this just in: the Secret Service met with Nugent, and the issue is officially “resolved.”

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  118. fustian says:

    @Jenos Idanian: What I find particularly interesting about the current budget brawl is that the attempt to characterize the problem is everything.

    Democrats are insisting that we have a deficit problem. If you believe that, it’s certainly true that all we need to do is a little balancing of spending and taxing.

    Republicans think the problem is that the government is simply too large and it smothers the economy. If you believe that, then increased taxes are a hugely bad idea. You might temporarily improve the deficit, but you’ll further swell the government which will certainly further dampen the economy and that will inevitably result in an increased need to collect ever more taxes to make up the shortfall.

    I suspect that rank and file democrats that have bought into the notion that we only have a deficit problem are truly mystified that republicans will cut no grand bargains. A republican politician that signs up for any grand bargain involving tax increases had better have plans for their next job because we’ll vote them out.

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  119. Jenos Idanian says:

    @fustian: Let me simplify it for you:

    Democrats say we have a deficit problem, and the only realistic solution is for the government to take even more money from people and corporations.

    Republicans say we have a deficit problem, and the only realistic solution is for the government to stop spending so much money it doesn’t have.

    Maybe the solution is somewhere in the middle, but considering that federal spending has shot through the roof since the Democrats took over Congress (which holds the purse strings) in 2007, and really went on a tear in 2009 (when the Democrats took over the White House), and the Democrats managed to keep us from even having a budget in about 3 years, I’m disinclined to take them too seriously on fiscal matters.

    Toss in some of the insanely stupid things done by Democratic spending (all those “green energy” companies that went belly-up even with governmental bailouts and backing) and the personal financial histories of some of the key players (tax cheats Charlie Rangel and Timothy Geithner among the most prominent), and you might begin to see why I would not only not want to entrust them with more money, but want to seriously cut back on what they have already.

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  120. anjin-san says:

    One would think that the vast expansion of the size, power, and yes, cost of the federal budget under Bush never happened.

    Oh, wait, we are pretending Bush never happened – period.

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  121. An Interested Party says:

    If Republicans are allegedly so much better with fiscal matters than Democrats, when was the last time the Republicans balanced the budget when they controlled power in Washington? Oh, and as to the idea of massively cutting spending as a way to get the country’s fiscal house in order, where would those cuts come from? Sorry, but axing the Department of Education and ending foreign aid won’t do that…certainly Republicans are free to go after Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid if they like, but those that do should also have plans for their next job…

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  122. matt says:

    @anjin-san: THe AWB was a joke and had no affect on gun violence (assault weapons are rarely used criminally). The AWB on the other hand did manage to regulate a lot of stupid things like bayonet lugs. Yes your bolt action ww1 rifle would of fallen under regulation of the AWB if it had a bayonet lug (cause drive by bayoneting is so common). My personal favorite dumb thing in the AWB was that it affected shotguns too (even some hunting ones). Pre-AWB and post-AWB you’re still heavily restricted on buying true assault weapons.

    If you want to legally own a real assault weapon you’re going to have to be rich or lucky. If you’re lucky you can get a state license and a federal background check done with fees that can easily cost +$500. If you’re rich you can by a pre-ban gun but those are extremely rare and costly. I’ve seen pre-ban m16s go for over $20000.

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  123. matt says:

    @Jenos Idanian: Well poop you beat me to it :(

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  124. anjin-san says:

    Obama’s taking Bush’s bad spending habits need to spend a lot of $$$ to keep us out of the depression Bush left us on the brink of…

    FTFY

    (Yes folks, the Bush crash never happened. All was well when Obama took office. Pinky swear)

    Republicans think the problem is that the government is simply too large and it smothers the economy

    Which explains the aformentioned vast expansion of the federal government when Republicans controlled the government.

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  125. anjin-san says:

    Bringing up examples like Harriet Myers or No Child Left Behind

    So they took Bush to task here, all the while cheering at the top of their lungs for the disaster in Iraq, and torture as a policy. Oh, and we will just overlook Katrina. And of course, Bush’s vast expansion of the size, power, and cost of the federal government.

    But Republicans are against making the government larger. Or more powerful. Or more expensive*

    *When Democrats do it. Obama expanded the size, power, and cost of the federal government. He is a bad man. Very, very bad.

    That’s a heck of a compelling argument you are making there skippy…

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  126. @Jenos Idanian: Uh, Jenos, the coyote comment was part of his speech at the NRA.

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  127. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: I’m bored with your making everything about Iraq, but you bring up a new one: Katrina. Yeah, let’s look at that one. Let’s look at how official policy is that state and local officials are the “first responders,” and the federal response has always been planned to be a couple days out from the actual disaster and a supplement to the state/local response. And then let’s look at the utterly incompetent (possibly criminally incompetent) responses of the Democratic mayor of New Orleans, Ray Nagin, whose city government totally collapsed and abandoned its citizens — I remember the pictures of “Lake Nagin,” the field of abandoned, flooded buses that could have been used to evacuate citizens.

    And let’s look at the Democratic governor, Kathleen Blanco, who dithered and stalled about declaring a disaster before the storm hit (like her peers in Mississippi and Alabama did), legally freezing out the federal response until it was way too late.

    And while we’re at it, why don’t you repeat all the horror stories of what happened in the Superdome, with the mass rapes and murders and cannibalism? You know, all the horrors that never actually happened? (Final Superdome death count: 3. 2 Elderly patients with medical conditions and one suicide.)

    The reason Bush and FEMA came under such attacks was simple: to provide cover for Nagin and Blanco. And once that got rolling, it became a convenient political cudgel to keep hammering away at Bush. Yeah, there was a core of truth in it, but it was empasized way, way out of proportion and the failures at the state and local level were swept under the rug.

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  128. anjin-san says:

    I’m bored with your making everything about Iraq,

    Really? I’m just bored with you in general.

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  129. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: My shame knows no bounds.

    But then, I don’t recall “entertain anjin” being my top priority. Hell, I don’t think it made the top 60.

    And nice way to dodge the issue you brought up. I’d offer sympathies for it not working the way you wanted, but that would be most insincere.

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  130. mattb says:

    @Jenos Idanian:
    No, don’t think we’re close despite what you say because of the first part of this sentence:

    All I will say in Nugent’s defense is that 1) his belief is not totally fantastic, but rooted in some reality, and 2) he’s almost certainly no physical threat to Obama.

    You have to do mental gymnstics to get to the “some reality” basis of “Obama’s going to take away my guns.” At best he *might* push for gun regulation (not disarmerment). However, his actual track record in office (as we keep pointing out) demonstrates no actual movement in this direction.

    This is akin to saying that there’s a concern rooted in some reality that a President Romney would invade Iran or make all Abortions illegal based on the rhetoric that he’s used on the campaign trail.

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  131. Jenos Idanian says:

    @mattb: You’re citing Obama’s record as president. He’s got a far longer history than that. As recently as the 2008 campaign, he was talking derisively of gun-owners. As I said, the current climate isn’t favorable for more gun control, and he’s enough of a pragmatist to recognize that.

    Which is why “Fast & Furious” as a possible way to change the climate towards gun control makes even the slightest amount of sense…

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  132. mattb says:

    @Jenos Idanian:

    Which is why “Fast & Furious” as a possible way to change the climate towards gun control makes even the slightest amount of sense…

    Of course, this both relies on the idea that Obama so how planned “Fast and Furious” and forgets that the entire strategy was based on a plan first developed and executed under the Bush administration.

    I note that you failed to acknowledge my point about how a Vote for Romney is a vote to abolish abortion and invade Iran based on his “beliefs” and “statements.” Based on your criteria, I have a realistic basis for saying “Republicans want to remove a woman’s right to chose and abolish most forms of birth control and eliminate same sex marriage” and that if Romney is elected all of these things will happen.

    So, thanks to your (and Nugent’s) logic, I can officially say that a vote for Romney is a vote to return Women to the 19th Century and an expression of homophobia.

    Thanks, I look forward to your support in this (as I’m following your well though out process expressed in this thread).

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  133. Jenos Idanian says:

    @mattb: A minor correction, matt: Fast & Furious was, yes, based on a Bush administration plan. But the Bush people saw that it was a miserable failure, and pulled the plug on it. The Obama people went back, yanked out the safeguards the Bush administration had put in to keep the guns from getting into Mexico and into the hands of the criminals, and tried it again.

    Imagine if someone had seen Evel Knievel’s attempt to jump the Snake River Canyon and said, “you know, let’s try that again, but let’s yank out the parachute and the rocket engines and see what happens.”

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  134. mattb says:

    @Jenos Idanian:

    Imagine if someone had seen Evel Knievel’s attempt to jump the Snake River Canyon and said, “you know, let’s try that again, but let’s yank out the parachute and the rocket engines and see what happens.”

    It seems to me that there’s a potential joke in here about tea partier’s interest in reviving supply side economics without a social safety net, but I think it’s a good time to stop this side discussion and agree to disagree.

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  135. Jenos Idanian says:

    @mattb: Fair enough. But I’m keeping that Evel Knievel metaphor handy. I rather like it.

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