Clinton Health Scare Raises Questions

Clinton stumbles and leaves an event early, leading to the news that her campaign has been withholding health information from the press.

Clinton Stumble

While most of the nation spent yesterday focused on remembering the September 11th attacks on their 15th Anniversary and enjoying, or for at least half the fans out there not enjoying, the first week of the N.F.L. season, the political media  became obsessed with Hillary Clinton’s health thanks to an episode that just happened to occur under the full glare of television cameras. It all started yesterday morning when, as has become customary in Presidential election years, Clinton made an appearance at the remembrance ceremonies in New York City. Donald Trump was there as well, although unlike previous years (see e.g., 2008 and 2012) the candidates did not appear together amid a day when both campaigns suspended campaigning. After about an hour and a half, Clinton ended up abruptly leaving the ceremonies much to the surprise of the press poll assigned to travel with the candidate and not too long after that smartphone video became public that appeared to show Clinton stumbling and needing to be helped getting in her campaign van. From there, Clinton was apparently taken to her daughter’s apartment nearby where she stayed for about an hour before emerging to an awaiting press corps and appearing to be physically fine as she got back in the campaign van and leaving. In the meantime, the campaign had released a statement saying that Clinton had become “overheated” and left the ceremonies for that reason. That statement quickly became a matter for debate as many observers noted that it was in high 70s and not particularly humid in Manhattan yesterday morning. In any case, after a full day, the campaign issued a more detailed statement from Clinton’s doctor revealing she had been diagnosed with pnemonia late last week and had left the ceremonies due to that and the fact that she had become dehydrated, a report that has led to a renewal of the long-standing debate over what candidates for President should be expected to disclose about her health:

Hillary Clinton is being treated for pneumonia and dehydration, her doctor said on Sunday, hours after she abruptly left a ceremony in New York honoring the 15th anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks and had to be helped into a van by Secret Service agents.

The incident, which occurred after months of questions about her health from her Republican opponent, Donald J. Trump, and his campaign, is likely to increase pressure on Mrs. Clinton to address the issue and release detailed medical records, which she has so far declined to do.

Mrs. Clinton was taken from the morning event at ground zero to the Manhattan apartment of her daughter, Chelsea. About 90 minutes after arriving there, Mrs. Clinton emerged from the apartment in New York’s Flatiron district. She waved to onlookers and posed for pictures with a little girl on the sidewalk.

“I’m feeling great,” Mrs. Clinton said. “It’s a beautiful day in New York.”

Mrs. Clinton left in her motorcade without the group of reporters that is designated to travel with her in public. A campaign spokesman, Nick Merrill, indicated that she had returned to her Chappaqua, N.Y., residence sometime after 1 p.m., and Mrs. Clinton was not seen publicly the rest of the day.

Mr. Merrill initially described Mrs. Clinton, the Democratic presidential nominee, as feeling “overheated” at the commemoration ceremony.

But just after 5 p.m., a campaign official said Mrs. Clinton’s physician, Dr. Lisa R. Bardack, had examined the candidate at her home in Chappaqua, and Dr. Bardack said in a statement that Mrs. Clinton was “rehydrated and recovering nicely.”

“Secretary Clinton has been experiencing a cough related to allergies,” Dr. Bardack’s statement said, adding that on Friday morning, after a prolonged cough, Mrs. Clinton was given a diagnosis of pneumonia.

Dr. Bardack did not indicate what sort of pneumonia Mrs. Clinton had or elaborate on the nature of the examination last week, whether Mrs. Clinton had a fever today, or a host of other issues that could offer more precise insights about her condition.

(…)

The episode thrust questions about Mrs. Clinton’s health and the transparency of her campaign squarely into the last two months of the race, which many polls show has grown tighter. For months Republicans have, with scarce evidence, questioned the stamina of Mrs. Clinton, 68, and claimed she is ill, often pointing to her repeated coughing bouts.

She has brushed off such claims. Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Trump, 70, have shared substantially less information about their health than some previous presidential candidates.

And Mrs. Clinton revealed that she had pneumonia and had been prescribed medication only after the startling video emerged of her being unable to walk under her own volition after the ceremony.

Her campaign initially did not offer any information about why she had left early or her whereabouts. Twice during the day, she abandoned the group of reporters assigned to cover her public movements. Campaign officials did not respond to multiple inquiries about whether Mrs. Clinton had been treated by a doctor or had taken any medications.

Even some members of Mrs. Clinton’s campaign staff had been unaware of her recent diagnosis. Huma Abedin, Mrs. Clinton’s long-time aide, sent an email to the full campaign staff on Sunday that included the doctor’s note, to share with them “the full picture.”

“Onward as H.R.C. would say,” Ms. Abedin wrote in the message, the contents of which were disclosed by a Clinton aide who requested anonymity to share an internal campaign email.

Shortly after that statement was released, the Clinton campaign announced that they had canceled a two-day fundraising trip to the West Coast and that Clinton would spend the beginning of the week resting and recovering at home and, presumably, following the course of antibiotics prescribed by her doctor. Because she had what seemed to be a health scare in such a public forum, though, Clinton has raised a public debate that has been around for decades now. Immediately, the Clinton campaign was criticized by the media for keeping them in the dark regarding what was going on and, especially, the way it handled both the incident yesterday and the candidate’s health:

Jonathan Martin, national correspondent for the New York Times, tweeted, “Hillary camp now reveals that her doctor diagnosed her pneumonia on Friday & put her on antibiotics. Only disclosed after this am’s episode.”

“I don’t understand why Clinton aides weren’t telling reporters at 10:30am: ‘pneumonia,'” CNN media reporter Brian Stelter wrote.
“Of course they should have disclosed this. This isn’t a cold,” added Chuck Todd, the host of NBC’s “Meet the Press.”

The campaign ignored requests for explanation, but its allies defended its actions online.

“#Hillary’s health is fine. The hysteria in the media and the attacks about it from #Trump supporters are not,” Democratic PR consultant Hilary Rosen tweeted before Clinton’s pneumonia was disclosed.

“Is there really a tradition of candidates publicly disclosing illnesses like colds, flu’s etc?” tweeted former White House communications director Dan Pfeiffer. “Every candidate I have ever worked for has gotten sick on the trail and worked through it because you can’t take days off in a close race.”

“[S]o which illnesses that are treated with antibiotics do you have to disclose? All?” former White House chief speechwriter Jon Favreau asked.

“From a medical point of view this is not a big deal, She needs to cancel some events or do them by Skype for a week,” observed former Vermont governor Howard Dean, a trained doctor.

“I think I coughed up a lung somewhere between Pennsylvania and Kentucky,” recalled former Clinton ’08 staffer Mo Elleithee, who also lauded her stamina. “She kept a campaign schedule with pneumonia. When I have a normal cold, I curl up in the fetal position & want to stay in bed for a week.”

Former Michigan governor Jennifer Granholm tweeted: “To press lamenting @HillaryClinton’s health/transparency: ‘powering through’ illness is what women do: Stoically, every. single. day.”

Clinton’s campaign schedule has been vigorous: On Friday alone, she headlined two fundraising events, met with a group of national security heavy-hitters, held a news conference, and granted an interview to CNN.

But the former secretary of state, who at 68 would be the second-oldest president in U.S. history should she win in November, has disclosed fewer details about her health than past presidential nominees — though she has divulged more information than her opponent, 70-year-old Donald Trump, who has released only a cryptic, one-page letter that his doctor has said was written in just five minutes.

David Scheiner, an assistant professor at the University of Illinois Medical School who was Obama’s personal physician for 22 years, argued in a recent Washington Post op-ed that neither Clinton nor Trump had disclosed enough information given their advanced ages.

“Having been in practice for 50 years serving a predominantly geriatric patient population, and now a septuagenarian myself, I can attest that the American people need much more medical information from these candidates,” he wrote. “The medical reports from Clinton’s and Trump’s personal physicians do not suffice.”

The Washington Post’s Chris Cillizza, meanwhile, contends that this episode means that Clinton’s health is now a “real issue” in the campaign:

Whether Clinton likes it or not, her “overheating” episode comes at a very bad time for her campaign. Thanks to the likes of Rudy Giuliani and a small but vocal element of the Republican base, talk of her health had been bubbling over the past week — triggered by a coughing episode she experienced during a Labor Day rally.

That talk was largely confined to Republicans convinced that Clinton has long been hiding some sort of serious illness. I wrote dismissively of that conspiracy theory in this space last week, noting that Clinton had been given an entirely clean bill of health by her doctors after an episode in which she fainted, suffered a concussion and then was found to have a blood clot in late 2012 and early 2013.

Coughing, I wrote, is simply not evidence enough of any sort of major illness that Clinton is assumed to be hiding. Neither, of course, is feeling “overheated.” But those two things happening within six days of each other to a candidate who is 68 years old makes talk of Clinton’s health no longer just the stuff of conspiracy theorists.

Whereas Clinton and her campaign could laugh off questions about her health before today, the “overheating” episode makes it almost impossible for them to do so. Not only has it come at a time when there was growing chatter — with very little evidence — that her health was a problem but it also happened at a 9/11 memorial event — an incredibly high-profile moment with lots and lots of cameras and reporters around.

(…)

But the issue is that Clinton kept reporters totally in the dark for 90 minutes after her abrupt departure from the 9/11 memorial service for a health-related matter. No reporter was allowed to follow her. (Clinton has resisted a protective pool for coverage because Donald Trump refuses to participate in one.) This is, yet again, the Clinton campaign asking everyone to just trust it. She got overheated! But she’s fine now!

Clinton may well be totally fine — and I certainly hope she is. But we are 58 days away from choosing the person who will lead the country for the next four years, and she is one of the two candidates with a real chance of winning. Taking the Clinton team’s word for it on her health — in light of the episode on Sunday morning — is no longer enough. Reasonable people can — and will — have real questions about her health.

(…)

A coughing episode is almost always just a coughing episode. But when coupled with Clinton’s “overheating” on Sunday morning — with temperatures something short of sweltering — Clinton and her team simply need to say something about what happened (and why the press was in the dark for so long.)

In retrospect of course, the Clinton campaign created an unnecessary problem for itself by not disclosing the diagnosis of pneumonia until hours afterwards and by abruptly abandoning the press corps that follows Clinton around and not disclosing where Clinton was until she was safely inside the access controlled building where her daughter’s apartment is located. Had they disclosed the diagnosis at the end of last week, then it would have both accomplished two things at once. First, it would have explained, as it largely does, the coughing fits that Clinton has been having on the campaign trail over the past two or three weeks and given them an excuse for Clinton either skipping Sunday’s events in Manhattan or only making a brief appearance. Second, it would have undercut the idea that the campaign has something to hide, an idea that’s just reinforced by the way it acted Sunday morning and the fact that it didn’t disclose the news from Friday and didn’t take any steps to reduce the candidate’s schedule to allow her to recover from what is a serious illness in anyone, especially someone on the verge of turning 70 who is engaged in a campaign that will not end for another eight weeks and who is running for a job has been demonstrably physically taxing on those who have held their job even when they were decades younger than her when they took office, such as President Bush 43 and President Obama both of whom aged visibly and notable during their eight years in office. Considering the fact that Clinton would be 78 years old at the end of a hypothetical second term in 2025, as would Donald Trump, questions about candidate health raised by this incident, and in the post I wrote about this issue just two weeks ago, are entirely legitimate.

David Axelrod, a former aide to President Obama who can hardly be called a Donald Trump fan put it this way this morning:

Axelrod has a point. While it’s hardly necessary for a campaign or Presidential Administration to disclose every time a candidate or President has the sniffles or wakes up feeling out of sorts, it is important for the American people to know the truth about the health of leader of the nation. For much the same reason that Clinton set up her private email server, though, Clinton’s campaign acted as if yesterday’s incident was something they could keep from the press. In the process, they created unnecessary problems for themselves and their candidate.

FILED UNDER: Campaign 2016, Health, Hillary Clinton, Politicians, US Politics
Doug Mataconis
About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May 2010. Before joining OTB, he wrote at Below The BeltwayThe Liberty Papers, and United Liberty Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. PJ says:

    Democrats worried about Clinton’s health should vote for the woman who thinks that diluted monkshood is the proper way to treat pneumonia. Remember, antibiotics are being pushed by big Pharma.

  2. Jen says:

    Suggestions for primary seasons going forward:

    * Crossfit challenge to ensure physical stamina
    * Week-long Jeopardy tournament to ensure mental acuity
    * Blank map of world, each candidate must fill in as many countries as possible within 20 minutes.
    * Yoga class–live-streamed, so we’ll know who can touch their toes.
    * Tax returns–public, or no party help or cash.
    * Complete medical records.
    * College transcripts, plus any graduate degree grades.

    Have I missed anything?

    Oh, yeah–how do we assess the candidates’ ability to work with foreign leaders and be tough but pragmatic and diplomatic so as to not cause additional problems?

    I can’t imagine why anyone would want to run for public office.

  3. CSK says:

    That video was alarming. I watched it a few times, and it was quite clear HRC couldn’t walk, or even stand upright, unaided. I assume she got a vaccination against viral pneumonia when she turned 65, as is highly recommended. And bacterial pneumonia is easily treatable with antibiotics. Still, it does require some bed rest and, normally, a day or two of hospitalization. She should take off a few days.

  4. Pch101 says:

    I would rather a President Clinton with polio and the plague than a President Trump who could run marathons.

    This really makes no difference at all. In the worst case scenario, we end up with a President Kaine instead of Clinton, and that is also preferable to both Trump and Pence.

  5. ltmcdies says:

    well there is a problem here in that …it really wouldn’t have mattered because if Mrs. Clinton campaign had said Friday that she was curtailing events due to pneumonia because the headline next day would have been

    “Hillary skipping 9/11 Memorial CLAIMING pneumonia.”

    Mr. Alexrod is being obtuse in thinking the reaction would have been “Get well soon, Hillary”

    Doug makes a comment about not wanting to know about every sniffle but that’s where your headed with this nonsense. Morning updates on every sneeze or attack of constipation. The release yearly of the presidential pap test. Is that really what’s wanted.

    I might add in a country where a lot of workers and others don’t have family leave or sick leave…..putting your head down and bulling your way through a packed daily schedule when you feel awful isn’t unusual. People will relate to it more than the male pundit class thinks

  6. bk says:

    To Whom My Concern. Jesus, Doug.

  7. Thor thormussen says:

    Emily L. Hauser
    ‏@emilylhauser
    So what I’m hearing is that Clinton got really sick & soldiered on anyway, & most people didn’t even notice b/c that’s what women do.

  8. gVOR08 says:

    @Pch101:

    a President Trump who could run marathons.

    One recent picture of Trump naked above the waist would end his candidacy.

  9. James Pearce says:

    Axelrod has a point. While it’s hardly necessary for a campaign or Presidential Administration to disclose every time a candidate or President has the sniffles or wakes up feeling out of sorts, it is important for the American people to know the truth about the health of leader of the nation.

    That Axelrod quote is devastating.

    I had thought the “”Hillary’s Health” nonsense was a burp from the fever swamps –safe to ignore– but then I saw the footage of her getting into the car and, for just a second, I forgot who was trying to con me.

  10. MBunge says:

    @Jen:

    Yes, being honest with not just the general public but your own staff and having the good judgment to avoid horrible public relations disasters, those are obviously NOT important qualities for a political leader.

    Mike

  11. ltmcdies says:

    @MBunge:

    so it would not have been questioned if Mrs. Clinton had skipped the 9/11 Memorial, the campaign announcing the reason as pneumonia.

    that’s good to know because the campaign I’ve been watching is one where every Clinton eye blink has been a seizure.

    And that hasn’t just coming out the fringe, has it. That stuff also coming out the Trump campaign.

  12. Tillman says:

    @CSK: the ideal handling would’ve been to announce a two or three-day suspension of Clinton’s activities while letting surrogates continue campaigning, keep running ads and so forth. Let Donald Trump stumble over himself saying something stupid. Instead, we got idiotic responses from Clinton surrogates on how she’s not really sick right before it was announced she was sick, and a vindicated fringe conspiracy theory.

    Also, working through disease is admirable when the disease goes away and foolish when it worsens the disease. Pneumonia isn’t something to “power through.” This one I don’t blame on Clinton, she’s always seemed really determined, but someone in her circle should’ve put their foot down on this.

    Still, the best tweet over Clinton’s sickness isn’t the Axelrod one, which I agree with, but this one.

    Also, Freudian slip here:

    a report that has led to a renewal of the long-standing debate over what candidates for President should be expected to disclose about her health

  13. Jen says:

    @MBunge: Please see @Thor thormussen: ‘s comment.

    This is exactly what occurred to me. As someone who has worked in several male-dominated work settings, I can tell you, when you get sick, you just deal with it. You load up on the medication and keep going.

    While it isn’t the case here, you do it *especially* if it’s a “female problem.” It’s what you do when you are being assessed alongside people who do not–and will not ever–have those same problems.

    I don’t think that she could have won either way here. Had she announced she had pneumonia, the reaction would have been “is it *really* pneumonia?” I agree that probably would have been the better way to go, regardless. But I also understand what would compel her to keep going, despite being ill. I really do.

  14. Pch101 says:

    @ltmcdies:

    There is no scenario in which the Bunge types will stop whining about the Clintons. None.

    He’s a classic concern troll, which makes him something akin to the abusive boyfriend who constantly whines about his girlfriend in order to manipulate and gain leverage over her. There will always be a hair out of place or a dress of the wrong color or some kind of misstatement or mistake because whining is a tool for bullying.

  15. CSK says:

    @Tillman:

    Yes. I think that if, following her Friday diagnosis, her campaign had immediately released a statement saying that she would be forced, with great regret, to miss the memorial, and that she would resume a full slate of activities after 4-5 days’ rest, things would have gone better.

    As it stands now, the Kook Brigade is claiming she doesn’t have bacterial pneumonia, but Parkinson’s exacerbated by acute alcoholism.

  16. R. Dave says:

    @Pch101: In the worst case scenario, we end up with a President Kaine instead of Clinton, and that is also preferable to both Trump and Pence.

    Actually, I don’t think that is the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario is what we got with Reagan in the latter part of his second term – a President with diminished capacity to govern shielded by a fiercely loyal staff that essentially governs in his/her name rather than passing the torch to the VP. Of course, I’d still take that over Trump.

  17. MBunge says:

    @ltmcdies:

    Okay, I know it’s hopeless because Hillary “supporters” are making it clear they don’t even care if she drops dead, as long as it happens one second after the polls close. But this new line of BS is so stupid that I have to try and nip it in the bud.

    The right wing has been talking about Hillary’s health for months. The Clinton campaign had successfully convinced the mainstream media it was all garbage. NO ONE in the mainstream media was talking about Clinton’s health. There weren’t even many mainstream Republicans who were talking about it. Anyone who did bring it up got an avalanche of criticsm for daring to do so. And if the campaign had said “Hillary is a little under the weather, so she’ll be using a chair/cutting short her attendance at the 9/11 memorial” it would have only reinforced the taboo on questioning her health. “See, they just admitted she feels sick. That proves they’re not hiding anything!”

    Instead, they just angered a huge swath of the media who feels like they’ve been lied to and they have now made Hillary’s health a 100% legitimate issue, where any denial short of her undergoing a public physical can be refuted by pointing to this incident.

    Mike

  18. Bob@Youngstown says:

    I was appalled to hear Andrea Mitchel say this morning that the “Clinton Campaign had a affirmative obligation to notify the press of HRC’s diagnosis” (assumes “immediate” notification).

    AFFIRMATIVE OBLIGATION ???? What a load.

  19. They Saved Nixon's Brain says:

    Repeat After Me:
    The Cover Up is ALWAYS worse!

  20. MBunge says:

    @Pch101:

    The people acting like they are in an abusive relationship here are you folks. You’re the woman standing in the door with a black eye telling the cops she just “walked into a door.”

    Mike

  21. Hal_10000 says:

    In the worst case scenario, we end up with a President Kaine instead of Clinton, and that is also preferable to both Trump and Pence.

    No, the worst case scenario is an ill President making bad decisions.

    I largely agree with Doug. This would have been largely a non-issue had they been more forthcoming. Yeah, the Trumpaloos would have crowed. Everyone else, including me, would have said, “OK. Hope she gets better.” As it was, we endured an amusing few hours where Clinton supporters tried to insist that NYC was in sauna-like conditions.

    The conspiracy theorists are roaring right now but the simple fact is that this incident shows how hard it would be for Presidential candidate conceal even a minor healthcare issue because of the grueling schedule.

    And I do really hope she gets better. Pneumonia, even walking pneumonia, is scary. I am 100% OK with her resting up for the final push.

    (Trump has been oddly silent on this. I can only assume Conway has stolen his phone and/or tied him to a tree.)

  22. Pch101 says:

    @MBunge:

    Er, pneumonia has a short incubation period A physical performed even a week or two ago would have missed it since it hadn’t yet started.

    Your right-wing buddies have been whining about this for much longer than a week or two because as is the case with you, whining is just what they do.

    Sadly for you, pneumonia is not a chronic condition and it usually goes away. Perhaps she’ll get a hangnail or something and you can whine about that, too.

  23. Mister Bluster says:

    Trump on Clinton’s health: ‘I hope she gets well soon’
    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/trump-clinton-228014

  24. James Pearce says:

    @Hal_10000:

    Trump has been oddly silent on this.

    Having gotten what he wanted out of this episode, Trump is wishing her well.

  25. Jen says:

    @James Pearce: He’s apparently done one better than that.

    BBC is reporting that he will make public the results of a medical exam he took last week, saying that health is now “an issue” in the campaign.

  26. Tony W says:

    @Jen: You forgot “long form birth certificate”

  27. Hal_10000 says:

    @James Pearce:

    Yeah, he seems to have wised up and let his surrogates do the dirty work while he stands above the fray. That’s kinda scary. Wonder how long it will last.

  28. JKB says:

    They left the national media, on-site, with her press pool penned, with 90 minutes to discuss her collapse on live television. Then the video emerged. The Hillary emerged. Then the cover story of pneumonia emerged.

    And it was just last week when Clinton people were trying to get a reporter who said Hillary looked tired, fired. And it was only a few weeks ago, that CNN fired Dr. Drew for questioning Hillary’s health status and the quality of the healthcare she was being provided.

    This story isn’t going to blow over, but that video will have a serious influence on those few critical voters who are on in-between or on the edges of the camps.

  29. Mister Bluster says:

    @Jen:..he will make public the results of a medical exam he took last week, saying that health is now “an issue” in the campaign.

    Where are The Chump’s Tax Returns?

  30. Gustopher says:

    It does raise questions:
    – is a grueling test of stamina among senior citizens a good way to choose policy?
    – can we just get them to fight in an arena instead?
    – with sword canes?
    – do we need to know about moderately impactful, acute illnesses?
    – if Clinton were to die from antibiotic resistant pneumonia, would people take antibiotic resistant bacteria as a serious problem?
    – is a sick body worse than a sick soul?
    – why do my coworkers come to work sick?
    – if Clinton were to suddenly die, what would Trump tweet?
    – is it really pneumonia, and not Parkinson’s?

    Lots of questions.

  31. Guarneri says:

    The secret service agent tripped. Hillary heroically jumped to his aid, losing her balance in the process. She then sprang like a gazelle in to the car and it was on to save the world. That’s what her campaign says, and I’m believe it.

    Of course, if she does have pneumonia, why did she use that young child as a political prop? Young lives don’t matter?

  32. ltmcdies says:

    @MBunge: I’m a Canadian and no skin off my nose if you put Mickey Mouse in the Oval Office (well not entirely accurate but I can’t be a supporter in foreign country)
    From my outside observations of this election cycle..if you want to pretend that any health statement made by the Clinton campaign would have been accepted at face value..fine. Sure…whatever. Are you gonna try to sell me a bridge.

    From where I sit all it would happened is similar to what’s happening now. Rampant and bizarre speculations about the wearing of “seizure glasses”..and the use of body doubles.

    Only thing to add would be the “how dare she miss the memorial..” headlines.

    Frankly Americans have been a bit spoiled as both the last presidents have been obviously fit and healthy but now your faced with “a girl” and the rotund, fast food connoisseur, Donald Trump. Both candidates over 65.

    but then the question needs to be…how much medical info are entitled to…how often and does/should that change with the age of the candidate.

    anyhoooo…please bear in mind the only “support” I feel I must give is for Canadians who will be working hard putting up that wall should Trump win.

  33. CSK says:

    @Mister Bluster:

    Those tax returns are some place you’ll never, ever see them.

    I was thinking that maybe Trump could get some “accountant” to write a summary of his financial affairs similar to that laff-riot doctor’s letter he produced for our entertainment.

    “Donald Trump’s fiscal health is amazingly good! His income is yuge! All the tests for deductions were positive! He’s had more write-offs than any other person who became president! His tax returns are so good the American people will get bored with reading how good they are!”

  34. Jen says:

    OT:

    In unrelated news, Trump doesn’t want debate moderators at all, says they are biased and will be unfair to him.

    He wants to just “sit there and talk” to Hillary.

  35. wr says:

    @MBunge: Lookee! Mike is finding his way into justifying the Trump vote he’s been planning all along!

  36. Pch101 says:

    @wr:

    At this point, Bunge is resembling a Russian troll. They aren’t interested in ideological consistency but with producing FUD that might get Trump into office.

    http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-real-paranoia-inducing-purpose-of-russian-hacks

  37. CSK says:

    @Jen:

    It gets better. The Trump Fan Club over at lucianne.com is proposing that Trump retain electronics experts to jam the earbud HRC will be wearing through which she’ll be transmitted answers to the debate questions.

  38. JKB says:

    @CSK: Those tax returns are some place you’ll never, ever see them.

    If there was anything in those tax returns, the Dem/Prog career bureaucrats at the IRS would have already leaked them.

  39. Gustopher says:

    – was Clinton’s convenient fall and concussion before the Benghazi hearings the result of this same walking pneumonia?
    – does the Clinton Crime Family have a plan of retribution for bacteria?
    – are all bacteria on the hit list?
    – does the Clinton Crime Family know that there are good bacteria and bad bacteria?
    – Donald Trump has the best bacteria! (Not a question, just an observation)
    – why does Clinton wear the dark sunglasses again?
    – does Clinton drink enough fluids?
    – does anyone drink enough fluids?
    – Donald Trump drinks the best fluids! (Also not a question)
    – how would a libertarian handle walking pneumonia?
    – how many sick days does the Clinton campaign give its candidate and staffers?

  40. Mister Bluster says:

    @JKB:..If there was anything in those tax returns, the Dem/Prog career bureaucrats at the IRS would have already leaked them.

    Nothing to see here. Move on.

  41. Lit3Bolt says:

    When it comes to Clintons, always assume the worst and put the worst possible construction on events.

    At what point did we expect Presidents to be deities? Around the Reagan administration?

  42. David M says:

    I’d say the selection of Kaine makes Hillary’s health much less of issue. I think presidential candidates should be more transparent as well, so it’s now up to Trump to release his tax returns and medical evaluation from an actual doctor. After those are done, then it’s appropriate to discuss whether both Clinton and Trump should release more detailed medical histories.

  43. James Pearce says:

    @JKB:

    And it was only a few weeks ago, that CNN fired Dr. Drew for questioning Hillary’s health status

    Let’s not think that Hillary hiding her pneumonia diagnosis actually reaches back in time and justifies Dr. Drew’s (or anyone else’s) speculative BS about her health.

    The conclusion to draw is that this underscores how sneaky she is when she doesn’t need to be, not that the tin hat brigade might be right.

  44. Slugger says:

    I am 70. I would support an amendment setting an upper limit of age 55 for running for president for a first term.
    I am still convinced that a sickly 70 year old woman is better than a bizarre 70 year old man.

  45. Modulo Myself says:

    Three options–

    1) She had pneumonia and decided not to reveal it.

    2) She has a serious medical condition and will try to brazen it out without revealing the truth.

    3) She has a serious medical condition and she reveals it way after the point at which it should have been revealed.

    2 and 3 are very bad and should cost her the presidency. 1 is understandable up until the point when she left the memorial service, when it should have been revealed immediately. The Clintons are hard-wired not to do this so of course they didn’t.

  46. Mikey says:

    It wouldn’t have made any difference if the Clinton campaign had made this public on Friday or whenever. The wingnuts wouldn’t have believed it anyway, they’d have created new conspiracy theories about how whatever’s wrong with her is so severe she can’t even attend the NYC 9/11 memorial. Pneumonia would have been seen as a lie, and the REAL disease must be REALLY REALLY TERRIBLE for her to miss that, etc. etc. blah blah blah.

    Basically exactly what they’re saying today, just a couple days earlier.

    So what’s the risk to the Clinton campaign of keeping it under wraps and hoping the antibiotics work well enough between Friday and yesterday to keep her from falling over?

  47. David M says:

    @Modulo Myself:

    Trump is preferable to Clinton/Kaine if Clinton has a serious medical condition? I’m not sure I’m following that logic.

    Also, walking pneumonia isn’t an obvious case where it should be disclosed to the public, especially if the candidate wasn’t changing her schedule because of it.

  48. Bob@Youngstown says:

    Sanja Gupta wants to know (an thinks that the public ‘needs’ to know) the type of bacteria that is involved with her pneumonia. He also needs to know the name of the antibiotic that was prescribed.

    Trumps physical ? I really need to see his prostate exam and his cardiac stress test and his genetic testing results…

    This is becoming silly.

  49. James Pearce says:

    @Mikey:

    So what’s the risk to the Clinton campaign of keeping it under wraps and hoping the antibiotics work well enough between Friday and yesterday to keep her from falling over?

    An embarrassing video of her stumbling into her car would be the risk.

    This is what I want to know: What’s the reward?

  50. Mikey says:

    @James Pearce:

    An embarrassing video of her stumbling into her car would be the risk.

    Yeah…but my point is: it makes no difference anyway. Regardless of what the campaign does with her diagnosis, it loses.

  51. Gavrilo says:

    Mitch McConnell has an anonymous source that told him Hillary Clinton has Parkinson’s disease. So, now that the word is out, Hillary needs to release all medical records for the past five years to prove she doesn’t. But, she won’t do that because she’s had Parkinson’s disease for 10 years! I mean, how would it look if Hillary Clinton released her medical records and they showed that she has Parkinson’s disease?

  52. David M says:

    @Gavrilo:

    I’m not sure your gotcha is as clever as you think. In Romney’s case, he hadn’t released his tax returns, and Obama did. In this case, Clinton has at least released the minimum expected amount of medical information, while Trump hasn’t. In other words, you’ve failed as usual.

  53. Tony W says:

    @Gavrilo: Geez dude.

    Are we going to now discuss Trump’s taxes and NAMBLA?

  54. MBunge says:

    I don’t like Hillary. I don’t want her to be President. Given the only real alternative, however, I could be persuaded that her becoming President might be the least worst option…if it wasn’t painfully clear that everything I don’t like about her will get multiplied by at least 100 when she’s sitting in the Oval Office.

    If you want Hillary to win, you should be angry today. Maybe you can’t bring yourself to be angry at Hillary but you should at least be mad as hell at her campaign for this awful error in judgment. This mistake, which is entirely of the Clinton campaign’s making, is going to make it harder to win the election. Yet not only are the usual suspects defending the indefensible, some of them actually want to claim that this incident somehow demonstrates something positive about Hillary.

    As horrible as Trump likely could be, there at least exists a possibility he might be so horrible that it would shatter our sick political culture. As bad as a one-term Trump Administration could be, it might break the GOP of this diseased habit of encouraging the worst elements of our society. Perhaps it would be such a disaster that it would sweep Democrats to power everywhere in 2020, a census year which would allow them to end the GOP’s gerrymandered hold on the U.S. House. Heck, there’s even that one-in-a-trillion chance that Trump might not be so awful.

    The Hillary “supporters” around here, though, make it undeniable that electing her is just going to perpetuate and enhance every damn thing that’s been wrong with our damn politics for the last 25 damn years. I can’t go along with that.

    Mike

  55. James Pearce says:

    @Mikey:

    Regardless of what the campaign does with her diagnosis, it loses.

    That’s probably true now.

    But if on Friday, after hearing, “So you have pneumonia,” the Clinton campaign came out and said, “Hillary Clinton has pneumonia and will take a few days to recover,” we’d probably still have Gavrilo passing on rumors of Parkinson’s disease, but supporters could reasonably say, “No, it’s pneumonia.”

    What can supporters reasonably say now?

  56. MarkedMan says:

    @MBunge: Wait a minute. So you are saying that RWNJs have been talking about her health for months, specifically brain seizures, Parkinsons, cancer and so forth, and she is diagnosed on Friday with walking pneumonia and that proves they were right all along? Sheesh.

  57. Lit3Bolt says:

    @James Pearce:

    Her not being at a 9/11 memorial is the other risk, which nobody is thinking to mention.

    What would have been the political cost of that?

    They gambled on her being hardy enough to go through with it and lost, thus creating the incident they were trying to avoid. Politically, that just sometimes happens. It’s not about transparency, unless you think you need to know about President Obama’s infectious disease record and bowel movements in “the name of transparency.”

  58. Blue Galangal says:

    @MBunge: Again, I think Trump is winning in the court of low expectations. How are you not mad about the literally hundreds of grave errors and mistakes Trump and his campaign have made, but you are angry about an error Hillary’s campaign made? Because she’s the sane candidate, she gets held to a completely different standard than the insane one. That’s all. You’re bending over backwards to justify your own decision to vote for someone who is, literally, a racist idiot with no intellectual curiosity who has never read a single book and can’t stay on task for more than 2.5 minutes.

    I’ve had walking pneumonia twice now (at the ripe old age of 50) and the second time I literally keeled over at a conference presentation. I had no idea that’s what was wrong with me. I guess there’s only one word for it: Sad!

  59. David M says:

    @MBunge:

    You’re just incapable of being remotely sane on this issue. Not announcing she had walking pneumonia is kind of the least important thing ever. Your complaints about Clinton representing what’s wrong with our politics the last 25 years are mutually exclusive with the actual fact she’s not a Republican. The GOP is what’s wrong with Washington, and when it’s not Clinton, you acknowledge it. When the subject is Clinton, you completely lose touch with reality and stop making any sense at all.

    Trump’s problems can’t be treated by antibiotics.

  60. Mikey says:

    @James Pearce:

    What can supporters reasonably say now?

    It’s pneumonia.

    But reasonable isn’t anything remotely close to this election.

  61. Thor thormussen says:

    @Blue Galangal: The good thing is that it looks like the racist angry dumbass trump supporters are topping out at about 40% of the american public. I mean, that’s a silver lining! Thank heaven for small favors and all that.

  62. SKI says:

    @JKB:

    If there was anything in those tax returns, the Dem/Prog career bureaucrats at the IRS would have already leaked them.

    It says something about a person that they are so quick to assume that others are corrupt and unprofessional…

  63. the Q says:

    Thank you fellow Dems for nominating someone who could very well lose perhaps the easiest election for a Dem in the last 60 years. We Bernie supporters warned you people about voting for a liar.

    Again, the Clinton playbook in full bloom. Deny, then deflect, then lie, then correct.

    She, comes out of Chelsea’s apartment and could have said, “just a little summer cold, I’m getting better and this beautiful day will certainly help recovery!!!.”

    No, instead its the typical Clinton default to the “I didn’t have sex with that woman”….er “I feel great”….even though I just got diagnosed with pneumonia and fainted into the arms of the SS.

    How do you people keep shilling for her? I get it. Trump is the anti christ. No way I vote for him, but does that keep justifying her lies and distortions?

    Like, I’ve said from the beginning, when the lib Dems start acting like the wingnuts and gainsay the obvious truth, we are in real trouble. Its bad enough we have the wingnut dementia, lets not let it metastasize into our party….even though reading some of the commenters here in denial, it already has.

  64. michael reynolds says:

    @MBunge:

    Mike, you’ve been looking for an excuse to vote for the racist, misogynist ignoramus for months. If this is the excuse you need, go ahead, but stop wasting everyone’s time with a bullshit Hamlet act.

    You want to hand 4,500 nuclear weapons to a man with no impulse control, zero knowledge of world affairs, and the emotional maturity of a two year-old, just say so. Stand up like a man and admit that you’re a Trump supporter.

  65. David M says:

    @the Q:

    Um, wouldn’t “I just have a little summer cold” actually have been a lie? You’re so worked up with CDS that you have lost all perspective. It’s like we’re in some bizzarro world where you expect the normal answer to “how are you” to be a detailed health history, rather than “fine”.

  66. Lit3Bolt says:

    @the Q:

    Yes, bring back the 75-year old Independent Socialist, because we know he would get less questions about his health and competence.

    Vote for Putin in this election for all I care.

  67. James Pearce says:

    @Lit3Bolt:

    Her not being at a 9/11 memorial is the other risk, which nobody is thinking to mention.

    Her absence at an event on Sunday could have easily been explained by sharing her pneumonia diagnosis on Friday.

    @Mikey:

    It’s pneumonia.

    Having pneumonia explains why she left the event early and was filmed stumbling into her van.

    It does not explain why she had to be filmed stumbling into her van before she revealed that she had pneumonia.

  68. Steve V says:

    @MBunge:

    As horrible as Trump likely could be, there at least exists a possibility he might be so horrible that it would shatter our sick political culture. As bad as a one-term Trump Administration could be, it might break the GOP of this diseased habit of encouraging the worst elements of our society.

    Do you remember how unpopular George W. Bush was toward the end of his presidency? What did that do for our political culture? Horrible republican politicians don’t cause any changes in the political culture; they just cause republicans to circle the wagons and/or repudiate the horrible pol as “not a true conservative.”

  69. SKI says:

    @MBunge:

    As horrible as Trump likely could be, there at least exists a possibility he might be so horrible that it would shatter our sick political culture. As bad as a one-term Trump Administration could be, it might break the GOP of this diseased habit of encouraging the worst elements of our society. Perhaps it would be such a disaster that it would sweep Democrats to power everywhere in 2020, a census year which would allow them to end the GOP’s gerrymandered hold on the U.S. House.

    Spoken like only a person of privilege can utter…

    Yeah, millions of fellow citizens may be hurt, damaged, broken or worse but maybe it will help me achieve my preferred political results.

    I’m guessing you never stopped to think about the real human cost you are hand-waving away?

  70. Gavrilo says:

    @David M:

    It actually wasn’t intended as a “gotcha.” Obviously, Mitch McConnell would never debase himself by slandering the opposition candidate on the floor of the United States Senate like Harry Reid did. Of course, as I recall the consensus around here was that it didn’t matter that Reid falsely accused Romney of a federal crime because “politics ain’t beanbag” or some such nonsense. I just think it’s funny that all the lefties around here are naval gazing about what Hillary should or shouldn’t have disclosed because she would have been attacked by all the Republican “meanies.”

  71. the Q says:

    Boy, not content with fighting the wingnuts, the Hillary slurpers go to war with their own party members over her obvious deceitful behavior.

    Dave M. I guess that blowjob by an intern and the impeachment was just a trifle episode. And Hillary is one of the most trusted candidates, with hugely favorable ratings right? Oh, its all a vast rightwing conspiracy I forgot. Its like Nixon blaming the “press” for his troubles right?

    And to Lit3bolt…..”Yes, bring back the 75-year old Independent Socialist,” Um, you mean the one who most resembles a true Democratic liberal? Who didn’t make $39 million last year and who won’t release the transcripts. You mean the one who was crushing Trump in just about every poll?

    You mean the transparent 75 year old who could be hammering issues like economic justice, single payer, min. wage increases, reforming Wall St, bringing down crushing college debt, reigning in bloated Pentagon budgets and not his health lies?

    Gosh, what a loser that guy is?

    The only Clinton Derangement syndrome thats going on are the Dems here who constantly shill for this corrupt liar. It mirrors the wingnut insanity over “but there were WMDs in Iraq…they just went to Syria”….You people are in the same deranged boat, unhinged from reality as you gloss over the very real problems that Hillary faces.

  72. Mikey says:

    @James Pearce: I don’t know, really. I mean, if they could have predicted her falling over, sure, plead illness on Friday and cancel her appearance. Of course, that wasn’t predictable, and I’m sure they figured a couple days on the antibiotics would have gotten her well enough that she wouldn’t have passed out. A risk they took that turned out poorly, obviously.

    But as Lit3Bolt said, canceling the appearance would have been problematic in itself, and you’re being far too easily dismissive of the stink that would have raised. Canceling an appearance at an event so significant–and that her opponent did attend– would have resulted in yet another wave of conspiracy theories and the same exact accusations we’re hearing today of pneumonia being a cover-up for Parkinson’s or leprosy or whatever the hell the wingnuts are drooling on about lately.

  73. Mikey says:

    @the Q:

    The only Clinton Derangement syndrome thats going on are the Dems here who constantly shill for this corrupt liar.

    She’s the only choice that isn’t Trump. Bernie lost.. I supported him, I voted for him in my state’s primary, but he didn’t get the nomination, and I’ve learned to deal with it.

    Clinton wasn’t my preferred Democrat, but I’m going to vote for her anyway, because I refuse to have even one vote’s responsibility if Trump wins.

  74. Pch101 says:

    Some folks need to figure out that Sanders lost the primary and is supporting the Democratic nominee.

    Anyone who believes that Americans now heart socialism needs to wake up and smell the borscht. There was a reason why the GOP was hoping that Sanders would become the Democratic nominee, and it wasn’t because they have suddenly acquired a taste for tax increases and Scandinavian-style social democracy.

  75. Andre Kenji says:

    Reagan was so senile during his Presidency that the British TV Show “Spitting Image” always portrayed him lying in his bed. But hey, he wasn´t a woman.

  76. Andrew says:

    Ha. All this talk about conspiracies, and now the people that peddle them, or believe them, or both think that this gives 100% validity to their opinion. It is more or less a weather person saying that in November sometime it will snow, and when that day comes and it does snow, they sit back and say they were right.

    Doesn’t matter that November = cold, and therefore a chance of snow is always there.
    Or that Hilary is human, and therefore can get sick. Especially campaigning day in day out. Going in the AC of a building and back out again into the heat, which can cause pneumonia in any human being.

  77. john430 says:

    @ltmcdies: Yep. We’d be stuck with Mickey Mouse for President which on one hand is lamentable but your fellow Canadians had already elected Goofy as your Prime Minister. so we happily took the 2nd pick.

  78. Andre Kenji says:

    Besides that:

    1-) Tim Kaine is pretty qualified to be President. One could argue that he would be a better President than his running mate. I see nothing catastrophic here.

    No one that could ever think of voting for Hillary would be dismayed by a Tim Kaine Presidency.

    2-) One could argue that people over 70 should not be running to be President. But Hillary´s opponent is EVEN older than her. In fact, he is even older than Reagan.

  79. James Pearce says:

    @Mikey:

    Of course, that wasn’t predictable, and I’m sure they figured a couple days on the antibiotics would have gotten her well enough that she wouldn’t have passed out.

    The ultimate goal being what exactly? “Maybe no one will ever know…..”

    I mean, we’re talking about a candidate who is already mistrusted on transparency issues, and her big “pneumonia” plan is to power through and hope no one notices? That’s just bizarre.

    She should have taken a page from Charlie Sheen’s book, saying, “Before you hear about this in the rumor mill, hear it from me: I have pneumonia.”

  80. Jen says:

    Why are we talking about this, and not about the Washington Post piece about Trump’s entire foundation being basically one big scam?

  81. the Q says:

    Hey, PCH, you wrote….”Anyone who believes that Americans now heart socialism needs to wake up and smell the borscht.”

    With neo Dems like you, who needs the wingnut party.

    For in your statement, you corroborated all that I have been saying about you sell outs on the neo lib side.

    Let me rephrase your statement, “this country isn’t ready for socialism (unlike the 40 years we actually had it) because selfish boomers like the income stratification and the 5 lake houses. It’s time you liberals of the past wake up and smell the DLC borscht which is paying lip service to the middle and poor, all the while enriching Wall St like the Roaring 20s. Quit reminding us of how far we have fallen as a party and elect the couple who made almost a fifth of a BILLION dollars the last 15 years because they are true members of the proletariat.”

    Now, who exactly is delusional?

  82. the Q says:

    PS, I will vote for the shrew. But, reading the abject rationalizations by fellow Dems is tough to take and I will hold your feet to the fire.

  83. Mikey says:

    @Jen:

    Why are we talking about this, and not about the Washington Post piece about Trump’s entire foundation being basically one big scam?

    Because of the Clinton rules.

  84. michael reynolds says:

    @James Pearce:

    The one thing you can count on with Hillary is that she never does the bold thing. In terms of generalship she’s a classic George McClellan: lots of logistics, lots of maneuver, tight staff, great at groundwork.

    I happen to think that’s what we need. The country is not ready to charge off in a new direction. There is no consensus, too much polarization. We’ve had an exciting decade and a half since 9-11, bringing the mind the Chinese curse: may you live in interesting times.

    Think about what’s happened in the last 15 years. A stalled war and a lost war; a near-death-experience-level financial meltdown; gay marriage; Black Lives Matter; legalized pot; Obamacare; the killing of Bin Laden; ISIS; Occupy Wall Street; Nuclear NK; Bernie Sanders; trans rights; Trump.

    The problems we face now are thankfully more boring, largely the sequelae of the above. These are sit down with briefing books, talk to Paul Ryan, see how we can manage for 4 years problems. Policy nerd problems.

    We could use some boring, competent, undramatic management. This is not a Rommel moment, it’s a McClellan moment. And don’t forget that Grant and Sherman won with the army Little Mac built. We’re like a sports team that needs a rebuilding year. Four years of nothing much happening would be excellent.

  85. Mikey says:

    @James Pearce: Shit, dude, I have no idea what they were thinking. Obviously, they chose poorly.

    Of course I’d like a campaign, and a candidate, who always chooses wisely, but we have to dance with the one what brung us. The other option is simply too horrible to contemplate.

  86. reid says:

    @James Pearce: Good grief. I’m pretty sure I’ve had “walking pneumonia”. I think I’m just recovered from it, in fact. A bad cold evolved into it. It took a few months to fully recover, and I had to go on with my life in the meantime. You generally feel just a bit crappy and tired with a nagging, annoying cough, but it’s doable. I once saw a guy pass out on stage while acting in a play because he didn’t realize how dehydrated and unwell he was. Could the stresses of a campaign take a physical toll, more than you would expect? I imagine so. It’s not always obvious what an illness is or how bad it is. I don’t blame her for just ignoring it. I don’t see it as deception. Being so critical over this is the bizarre thing.

  87. Jen says:

    @Mikey: Yes, rhetorical question. 😉

    It just drives me bonkers that this, somehow, is a LIE (all caps) and evidence of her dishonesty while Trump literally took money for his foundation and spent it on a $20K painting of himself (barf), made a direct pass-through of someone else’s money to a police association–which he then received an award for donating–and then *charged* that same police association to have their banquet at his resort.

    But no, she’s the one who is dishonest, because she didn’t whine about being sick to the papers. Sure.

  88. anjin-san says:

    @reid:

    A bad cold evolved into it. It took a few months to fully recover, and I had to go on with my life in the meantime. You generally feel just a bit crappy and tired with a nagging, annoying cough, but it’s doable

    I was there last year, that was a beast to get rid of – they had to give me the hardcore antibiotics. I was sleeping in the guest room for a while so my coughing did not keep my wife up. I’m in my mid-50s and have never had a serious health problem, but that thing was pretty rough.

    The fact that Hillary can have something similar and maintain a schedule that would kill most people makes me respect her more, not less.

  89. Pch101 says:

    @the Q:

    I’m not a Democrat, so you’re already off to a bad start.

    And I’m quite a bit younger than you, so I’m a liberal of the present, thank you very much.

    Sanders lost the primary. The rest of the electorate would be even less inclined to vote for him than the Democrats who rejected him, so his odds of winning the general were even worse than his odds of winning the primary that he lost. Get over it already.

  90. anjin-san says:

    @Jen:

    a $20K painting of himself

    Have you seen that monstrosity? The fact that he would even want it to exist is pretty disturbing, much less spending more money on it than some hard working folks earn in a year.

  91. Tyrell says:

    A clue here: think “Woodrow”

  92. reid says:

    @anjin-san: My sympathies. I have a history of getting bad colds, unfortunately. And that’s part of the problem. That cold that won’t go away… is it just a cold? Is it now a nasal infection? Bronchitis? Pneumonia? Wow, pneumonia, that sounds really bad!!! Well, no. Sure, she has access to the best doctors, no doubt, but it’s still hard to say what it is or fix it. Like you, I think it’s a testament to her toughness.

  93. wr says:

    @James Pearce: “The ultimate goal being what exactly? ”

    Well, if i t was to reveal obvious boring concern trolls, it was an enormous success. At least around these parts.

  94. Gavrilo says:

    @Jen:

    I agree. OTB is WAY too pro-Trump. I mean why would we talk about the fact that Hillary Clinton was too incapacitated to walk three feet from the curb to a waiting van?

  95. Thor thormussen says:

    A clue here: think “Woodrow”

    Honestly, all i think these days is Merrick, the guy who’ll become the Fifth Liberal Justice.

    I can’t wait!

  96. Jen says:

    From today:

    Tax records show that Trump hasn’t donated any money to his foundation since 2008. Instead, he has retooled his personal charity so that it gives away other people’s money — although Trump has kept his name on the foundation, and atop its checks.

    For another, the Trump Foundation seems to have repeatedly defied the Internal Revenue Service rules that govern nonprofits. It gave a prohibited political gift to help Florida Attorney General Pamela Bondi (R). It appears to have bought items for Trump — including a $12,000 football helmet and a $20,000 portrait of Trump — despite IRS rules against “self-dealing” by charity leaders.

    And, in at least five cases, the Trump Foundation may have reported making a donation that didn’t seem to exist.

    The Washington Post is doing real reporting on this campaign.

  97. Jen says:

    @Gavrilo: Has nothing to do with being “pro-Trump”–we have 90+ comments on a piece about Clinton’s health, while Trump’s Foundation is actually doing illegal stuff.

    Telling the world you feel fine when you are sick is not illegal. Flagrantly violating IRS rules governing non-profits *is* illegal.

    And yet we’re talking about one and not the other. I think that seems a little bit odd, don’t you?

  98. pylon says:

    Is it just me or is a diagnosis on Friday and a Sunday press release not pretty fast? I’ve seen plenty of politicians say they were sick a lot longer after that amount of time. Rob Ford took months.

  99. bill says:

    so the msm finally has to cover this, when it’s been discussed on the “right wing wacko” stations for weeks……i guess they feel somewhat vindicated now!
    i don’t wish ill will upon another, but covering up what could be a serious health issue is just so “clinton-esque”- i mean she’s a presidential nominee and should act as such.
    i especially liked how her bodyguards had to circle the wagon to prevent as much video as possible….so much for transparency.

  100. Thor thormussen says:

    So far this year we’ve learned that HRC is unusually ethical, helped raise and give poor people billions of dollars in help, and doesn’t rest until she collapses from pneumonia.

    She’s got my vote. The next SCOTUS justice is going to be Merrick Garland, not Sharon Osborne and Millie.

  101. the Q says:

    PCH, I will blame your youth for pulling facts out of your azz like this one “so his odds of winning the general were even worse than his odds of winning the primary.”

    Says who? You? I guess every poll which showed him winning over Trump has zero credibility. Instead, lets just pull facts out of thin air to justify our stupidity like you just did.

    You take the black vote away from Hillary and Bernie wins easily. They went for the bubba brainwashing, forgetting the welfare reform, the war on crack and the mandatory prison sentencing.

  102. Thor thormussen says:

    Hitler’s Orange Grandson is the perfect republican candidate.

  103. Andre Kenji says:

    @the Q: Yes, Blacks should not be voting. Only the Voting of Whites that should count in the Democratic Primary.

  104. Thor thormussen says:

    Is it just me or is a diagnosis on Friday and a Sunday press release not pretty fast? I’ve seen plenty of politicians say they were sick a lot longer after that amount of time. Rob Ford took months.

    Reagan was incapacitated for years while president. Remember how he thought he liberated the concentration camps?

  105. C. Clavin says:

    @Jen:
    I’m with Jen on this…Trump is doing blatantly illegal stuff, he’s talking about starting a war with Iran over hand gestures, he’s making stupid comments that show he doesn’t understand the simplest things about public policy…and there are almost a hundred comments here regarding Clinton’s cold. And even then…she maintained a schedule after the diagnosis that would have made me tired.
    When did the American public become so f’ing retarded?

  106. Neil Hudelson says:

    @the Q:

    Boy, not content with fighting the wingnuts, the Hillary slurpers go to war with their own party members over her obvious deceitful behavior.

    Both parties–or rather both wings–have wingnuts. In this case everyone you refer to is, indeed, fighting with a wingnut. That wingnut (you), just happens to be of their own party and political wing.

    I know, I know, you’re going to claim you aren’t a wingnut but rather the mainstream, at least when it comes to thought, right? You’re a true-blue?

    Here’s the thing though. Mainstream people on the left OR in the Democratic party tend to be feminists, or at the very least supportive of women in general. IE, not the type of people to refer to the first female nominee of a party as a “Shrew” and calling her supporters “slurpers.” Generally that type of language is reserved for–wait for it–wingnuts.

  107. C. Clavin says:
  108. Neil Hudelson says:

    @the Q:

    You take the black vote away from Hillary and Bernie wins easily.

    Yes, if you take away a large amount of Hillary’s votes, Hillary loses. That’s shocking. Did you know that if you took away the youth vote, Bernie would’ve lost by even more? And if you took away the Republican vote, Hubert Humphrey would’ve been President? I hear it was the judges’ votes that decided all those gold medals in the Olympics. Without their votes, anyone probably could’ve won.

    They went for the bubba brainwashing, forgetting the welfare reform, the war on crack and the mandatory prison sentencing.

    Ah, you think we should take away their vote because you think black people, as a whole, are mentally deficient. Well, now I will start taking your comments seriously.

    (And before you say I’m taking you out of context, or putting words in your mouth, think carefully about the implications of a phrase like ‘they [all of them] were brainwashed.”)

  109. michael reynolds says:

    @the Q:

    Oh, it’s still you who is delusional.

    We’ve had tax increases on the well-off. Believe me: I write those checks. I pay half my income now. You want more from me you’re going to have to come up with something better than free college in an environment where we aren’t exactly short of college grads and some vague notion of equality. Not that there was even the slightest chance of Bernie getting anything passed.

    Basically you had an old man who made a lot of promises he couldn’t come close to keeping. And he got 40% of active Democrats, so less than a majority of the only group of people even close to liking his positions. And once Paul Ryan threw everything back in Bernie’s face, then what?

    You bought pie in the sky. I buy stale bread that’s right here on an actual shelf.

  110. Kylopod says:

    @the Q:

    Let me rephrase your statement, “this country isn’t ready for socialism (unlike the 40 years we actually had it)

    Before describing the New Deal as socialism, maybe you ought to read what actual socialists had to say about it at the time. Here is Norman Thomas, the perennial Socialist presidential candidate in the 1930s and 1940s:

    But I am concerned to point out how false is the charge that Roosevelt and the New Deal represent socialism….

    Indeed, at various times Mr. Roosevelt has taken particular and rather unnecessary pains to explain that he was not a Socialist, that he was trying to support the profit system…. His slogan was not the Socialist cry: “Workers of the world, workers with hand and brain, in town and country, unite!” His cry was: “Workers and small stockholders unite, clean up Wall Street.” That cry is at least as old as Andrew Jackson….

    Some of it was good reformism, but there is nothing Socialist about trying to regulate or reform Wall Street. Socialism wants to abolish the system of which Wall Street is an appropriate expression. There is nothing Socialist about trying to break up great holding companies. We Socialists would prefer to acquire holding companies in order to socialize the utilities now subject to them.

    There is no socialism at all about taking over all the banks which fell in Uncle Sam’s lap, putting them on their feet again, and turning them back to the bankers to see if they can bring them once more to ruin. There was no socialism at all about putting in a Coordinator to see if he could make the bankrupt railroad systems profitable so they would be more expensive for the government to acquire as sooner or later the government, even a Republican party government, under capitalism must….

    I repeat that what Mr. Roosevelt has given us is State capitalism: that is to say, a system under which the State steps in to regulate and in many cases to own, not for the purpose of establishing production for use but rather for the purpose of maintaining in so far as may be possible the profit system with its immense rewards of private ownership and its grossly unfair division of the national income.

  111. Pch101 says:

    @the Q:

    You take the black vote away from Hillary and Bernie wins easily.

    So you’re disappointed that blacks can be citizens and are allowed to vote just like normal people.

    In other words, #BlackLivesDon’tMeanS**t. That is what you meant to say, right?

  112. Lit3Bolt says:

    @James Pearce:

    Dude, if she had shared her pneumonia diagnosis without evidence of any suffering, and had just canceled events, the National Enquirer would be currently running a front pager about “Hillary on deathbed: Makes Tim Kaine vow to defeat Trump!”

    We can argue what’s worse or what’s better, but all of that is basically celebrity gossip and theater criticism.

    Since it was the NFL first weekend, I don’t think the “optics” really mattered, anyway.

  113. MBunge says:

    And on this truly silly argument that Hillary working through her pneumonia proves how awesome she is, being a hard worker is nice but it isn’t really that important in a President.

    Were Jimmy Carter or George H.W. Bush one-term Presidents because they just didn’t work hard enough?

    No one ever accused Ronald Reagan of being busy as a beaver, but he accomplished a lot in two terms. You may think it was all horrible but it got done.

    And would George W. Bush really have been any better if he’d just kept his nose to the grindstone?

    A lazy candidate with good judgment would never have made the mistake just committed by an industrious one with bad judgment.

    Mike

  114. James Pearce says:

    @michael reynolds:

    We could use some boring, competent, undramatic management.

    I’d support getting rid of term limits if Obama is up for another 4 years.

    @Mikey:

    Of course I’d like a campaign, and a candidate, who always chooses wisely, but we have to dance with the one what brung us.

    I agree. I’ve been planning on voting Hillary, not because I want to but because she’s the better option. Ideological purity is not very high up on my list of priorities.

    @reid:

    I don’t blame her for just ignoring it. I don’t see it as deception.

    You have to ignore a whole lot of context to see no deception going on here. If she was just living her life, a work-a-day Joe like the rest of us, that would be one thing. But she’s running a presidential campaign, one in which her opponent has been telling everyone who will listen that she’s unwell and dishonest, and come to find out: it’s almost true.

    In some alternative universe, Hillary Clinton held a press conference on Friday and said something along these lines: “Donald Trump has said I’m ill. Well, it’s been a rarity in this campaign, but he’s right. I met with my doctors today and they confirmed a diagnosis of pneumonia. I don’t have Parkinson’s. I’m not suffering mini-strokes. It’s pneumonia. In keeping with my physician’s advice, I’ll be canceling all planned events for the next few days. To my regret, it means I will not be able to participate in any 9-11 remembrances.”

    I suspect in that universe, the Trumpkins are still going on about Hillary’s health, but it retains its conspiratorial tone and doesn’t provide opportunity for people to go, “Holy hell, that stopped clock is right for the second time today.”

    @wr:

    Well, if i t was to reveal obvious boring concern trolls, it was an enormous success.

    Are you calling me obvious and boring???? Why, I never….

  115. Thor thormussen says:

    You take the black vote away from Hillary and Bernie wins easily. They went for the bubba brainwashing, forgetting the welfare reform, the war on crack and the mandatory prison sentencing.

    It’s usually conservatives doing the “blacks are too stupid to vote correctly” thing, the Q. Why don’t you go join them. We don’t want your sorry racist butt.

  116. Jack says:

    Seen on the interwebs.

    The two things about this entire incident that struck me are, first, that the immediate response from the Clinton camp was to lie about it. How many things did they run up the flagpole before settling on pneumonia?

    Second, look at how calm her handlers are. They’ve seen this before.

    I noticed how even CBS and NBS used quotation marks around “pneumonia” when spouting the party line.

  117. wr says:

    @the Q: “You take the black vote away from Hillary and Bernie wins easily. They went for the bubba brainwashing, forgetting the welfare reform, the war on crack and the mandatory prison sentencing.”

    Right, because all them black people are just too stupid, shallow and lazy to understand what’s good for them, right? They’re just like children, easily hypnotized by a glittering toy.

    I get that you like to think you’re a liberal, but you’re as racist as anyone on the National Review arguing about the “Democratic plantation.”

    A lot of black voters didn’t choose your candidate, so to you that means they’re just stupid. Sorry, pops, it’s not 1936 anymore, and that kind of thinking isn’t acceptable in a progressive movement.

  118. the Q says:

    Wow, are you people inane. Like, where did I say anything derogatory about blacks and their vote? Or that only white people should vote? You’ve all jumped off the pier with crazy Clinton Defense Derangement Syndrome.

    I guess Cornell West hates black folks as well? Since he’s said exactly what I said, but then he must be one of those self hating black people who don’t like the corrupt Hill. And he probably really isn’t a “black” person to most of you since he doesn’t drink the clinton kool aid.

    And for you idiots that still question “socialism”, we had a true Socialist who was FDR’s Vice President – google it you morons. Show me anybody the last 30 years in the Dem party who is anywhere close to that side of the ideological spectrum.

    No wonder Hillary gets away with her lies and distortions, she clearly represents the wreck that is modern Dem party. Just for the record YOU NEO LIBS have given the GOP a record number of state houses, a record number of GOP Senators and a record number of House Congresspeople and you still are on your phucking moral high horse with my arguments. You are as blinded as that idiot Trump being in total denial. Hence, the ridiculous “you’re as racist as anyone on the National Review arguing about the “Democratic plantation.” What collosal batschitt crazy Jenos type pablum

    I guess like Ronald Reagan, some on this board will vote Dem only until they make enough money (Mr. Reynolds, Nixon supporter) to be hurt by the upper tax brackets – then its goodbye.

    And WR, show me how the huge rates of incarceration of black youth under Bill Clinton is fiction? Or how welfare reform didn’t harm the black community?

    In short, thanks for buttressing my main contention about the true nature of the modern Dem party. Social feel good BS to take the guilt away from total economic deprivation of the middle and poor. Zero reigning in of Wall St. The greatest wealth disparity in modern history. Need I go on?

    Christ, you’re a train wreck and you picked the perfect candidate to reflect your totally obtuse thinking. This nominee is flawed and may lose to a lunatic.

    Guess I will get started on my “don’t blame me, I voted for Bernie” bumper stickers.

  119. Pch101 says:

    @the Q:

    I’m impressed that you’re able to keep digging the hole that you’re in while simultaneously hitting yourself in the head with the shovel.

  120. WarrenPeese says:

    Gary Johnson is seven years younger and physically fit. He is also honest, which should count for something. He doesn’t conceal politically problematic issues like Hillary. Shouldn’t character matter in a presidential candidate?
    We don’t really know the health of either Hillary or Trump. To date, Trump’s doctor waved his hand over Trump’s head and wrote a glowing note. We can’t take at face value declarations from the Hillary campaign about her health.

  121. Davebo says:

    @WarrenPeese:

    Gary Johnson is seven years younger and physically fit. He is also honest, which should count for something.

    And with the current electoral situation he stands a chance to quadruple his vote count from 2012!

    Sadly, 3.6% of the vote is still a blip on the radar. Good luck though!

  122. rachel says:

    @ltmcdies:

    [P]utting your head down and bulling your way through a packed daily schedule when you feel awful isn’t unusual.

    I’ve had to do it. every single adult member of my family has had to do it. You may be on to something there.

  123. barbintheboonies says:

    @CSK: She was also dehydrated and that causes light headedness. I had the same symptoms before and it comes on all of a sudden. I needed to get IV to get electrolytes asap. I felt fine within hours.

  124. MikeSJ says:

    I was leery of ole Bernie, what with his history of kissing Castro’s ass and supporting the Iranian Revolution, but the taxes was the deal breaker.

    Twice, twice Bernie promised his taxes would be released. And…still waiting.

    Being a gentleman I will refrain from mentioning his wife’s shady business dealings at the college she bankrupted.

    Bernie would have been chewed up and spat out in by the Republicans in the General Election. He’d lose by a bigger margin than McGovern..

  125. An Interested Party says:

    You take the black vote away from Hillary and Bernie wins easily.

    Oh my, how Clintonesque of you! Bill was peddling that same kind of line against Obama in South Carolina back in 2008…the irony, it truly burns…

  126. Mikey says:

    Maybe she legitimately thought she was doing better. I know I’ve been sick and gotten up after a decent night’s sleep thinking “I’m doing better, I’ll go in to work.” And then before lunchtime it becomes “man, I feel like shit, time to go home.”

    And that’s just my regular-guy job, not a Presidential campaign. I’m sure the thinking there is “we can’t take a day off for anything, we’re into crunch time and Trump is starting to catch up.” So Mrs. Clinton gets a prescription for antibiotics Friday, takes them for a couple days, feels a bit better, thinks “I can deal.”

    But then she’s standing out in the sun for a while, and even though it’s not a particularly hot day she’s wearing dark clothes and a Kevlar vest and the sun is out and she is prone to overheating anyway because she has hypohydrosis and doesn’t sweat much. And maybe she’s been lax about her water intake. Suddenly things go south and she’s feeling REALLY bad and she’s passing out and being poured into the backseat of an SUV. Now it’s a Big Deal.

    It doesn’t take incompetence or bad judgment to end up in a situation like that. It just takes being a person who’s driven to get the job done even when they feel like shit. And I don’t doubt Clinton is the kind of person who will respond to “you need some rest” with “screw that, I feel OK and we need to be out there getting this done.”

  127. Bill says:

    B

    The most important quality in a president and Commander-in-Chief is steadiness—an absolute, rock solid steadiness.

    Guess who said that just a few days ago……. Then cancelled a trip and couldn’t stay propped up for a few hours?!

  128. An Interested Party says:

    Perfect!

    Cheney’s bad heart, Bush 41 spewed, FDR had polio … but a lady gets the vapors & it’s a crisis.

    Antibiotics can cure pneumonia but they can’t cure misogyny, racism, xenophobia, ignorance or wanting to bang your daughter.

    At the very least, I’m far less concerned about Hillary Clinton’s physical ailments than I am about Donald Trump’s mental ones.

  129. Kylopod says:

    @the Q:

    And for you idiots that still question “socialism”, we had a true Socialist who was FDR’s Vice President

    If you’re referring to Henry Wallace, keep in mind that FDR and the Democratic leadership shafted Wallace and replaced him with Harry Truman in large part because they found his views too extreme for the broader public.

  130. gVOR08 says:

    @michael reynolds: I strongly agree with your conclusion. I always felt a little sorry for HW Bush (only a very little) over “the vision thing”. For the most part, we don’t need vision, we need competence. If Hillary does nothing but protect and expand Obama’s accomplishments we will be well served.

    But I’m not sure McClellan is the best example. He was a great organizer, and created a really good plan. The Peninsula Campaign should have ended the war in 1862. The history of the Seven Days Battle on the Virginia Peninsula is just depressing. McClellan would take full advantage of terrain and logistics to form a line, then he held it against Lee’s assault, then for no compelling reason fell back overnight to a new, well chosen, line. Rinse and repeat until McClellan made a brilliant retreat completely off the Peninsula. A retreat no general willing to stand and fight would have had to make. Not, all things considered, competent at the core of his job.

    The Army he organized was the Army of the Potomac, not the U. S. Army. Grant did eventually take charge of all the armies and use the Army of the Potomac to advance to Richmond. But he and Sherman came up through the Western armies, which McC had not organized or trained. Sherman led Western armies to Atlanta, then on to Savannah, and up the coast to threaten Richmond. The Western armies were less spit and polish, but generally regarded as more flexible and faster on their feet. Grant seems to have found the Army of the Potomac a strong, but somewhat clumsy tool.

  131. george says:

    Pretty typical partisan politics.

    In 2008 the Republicans didn’t think McCain should release his medical records, the Democratic Party thought he should, because a Presidential candidate’s health was an important public issue.

    In 2016 suddenly the Republicans think release of medical records is important, and the Democratic Party thinks its unnecessary.

    And both sides call it a false equivalency for reasons that only a partisan person might buy – a false-false equivalency. Basically I don’t think it mattered for McCain, or for Clinton now; but its very entertaining to watch people turn their opinions around 180 degrees like this … even NFL fans are more self-aware of their partisanship than people who belong to a political party.

  132. Pch101 says:

    @george:

    You’re comparing McCain’s cancer to Clinton’s pneumonia? Seriously?

  133. Grewgills says:

    @george:
    Of course Clinton has released a more or less standard medical report and is set to release more, whereas Trump has released some nonsense a paid for doctor has pretended to write. You haven’t even risen to the false equivalency level of wrong.

  134. MBunge says:

    And to top it all off, Hillary gave an interview to Anderson Cooper in which she says all that happened is she got “overheated,” felt “dizzy” and “lost her balance.”

    We all saw the video. That is not what happened. It is entirely possible that little episode wasn’t anything serious at all. But she is back to boldly lying about something we all saw with our own eyes.

    I can understand someone still preferring Hillary to Trump but if you are not creeped out by Hillary going full blown “1984” just one day after it happened, you should stop pretending that you’re a reasonable person.

    Mike

  135. David M says:

    @MBunge:

    That nonsense is worth an entire thread of downvotes, you’ve clearly got an axe to grind, and less regard for the truth than the actual Donald Trump or even your fictional Hillary Clinton.

  136. Gustopher says:

    @MBunge: I’m not sure what video you saw, but the video I saw did look like someone feeling weak and dizzy, having trouble keeping her balance, and needing help getting to a car.

    That’s all in keeping with dehydration and pneumonia.

    I’m sorry that it doesn’t confirm your fantasies, but go right on pretending, if that’s what makes you feel good. Just don’t assume that other people are going to pretend along with you.

  137. Lynn says:

    @the Q: “I will vote for the shrew”

    This comment reinforces my belief that a huge % of the anti-Hillary sentiment is nothing but poorly disguised misogyny.

  138. Barry says:

    Doug: “Clinton Health Scare Raises Questions”

    ‘raises questions’ is a red flag.

  139. Kari Q says:

    @Pch101:

    Not to mention that if McCain had won then died in office, Sarah Palin would have become president.

  140. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Thor thormussen:

    This is doubtful. It will depend on the outcome of Senate elections, but I have zero confidence that she’ll resubmit his nomination if the Senate doesn’t confirm him during the lame duck

  141. C. Clavin says:

    Clinton has released far more health information than Trump (including information about his alleged bone spurs that got him a deferment from Vietnam) and when she got pneumonia the whole world knew within three days.
    This crap about her health, and transparency, is just more rank bigotry and misogyny – no different than birtherism.
    Clinton is a woman so she’s weak.
    Obama is black so he’s a foreigner.
    It’s clear Trump has very serious mental health issues…issues that should be disqualifying.
    And yet we’re talking about a cut and dried bout of pneumonia…because Clinton is a woman.
    Pathetic.

  142. MBunge says:

    @Gustopher:

    Eh. I don’t have the clinical background to deal with this level of self-delusion. I honestly hope nothing terrible happens to shatter such denial, as pitiful and destructive as it is.

    Mike

  143. Moosebreath says:

    As an example of when this type of thing happened before (and at a far worse time):

    “We’re talking about Philadelphia’s storied “one tough cookie” – Lynne M. Abraham, the former district attorney who fainted under the lights during the first televised mayoral debate in April 2015.”

  144. MBunge says:

    @C. Clavin:

    Just one more thing, because no one should be legitimately confused about the dynamic here.

    We KNOW the Clinton campaign withheld information from us.
    That decision led to an awful PR disaster.
    All we have to go on now, is a statement from Hillary’s personal physician.
    But it’s the people who don’t blindly accept this new story that have an unreasoning bias?

    Mike

  145. MBunge says:

    @Moosebreath:

    And just to do my bit to TRY and keep yet another line of BS from opening up, Hillary Clinton just went on television and specifically and clearly stated that she did not faint.

    And the suggestion that if a man shows physical weakness, it’s forgiven and forgotten like it never happened is probably the craziest thing yet offered in this discussion.

    Mike

  146. Gavrilo says:

    So, a major party Presidential nominee was caught on video completely incapacitated to the point where she had to be dragged from the curb into a van parked three feet away, and it’s misogyny to talk about it. Got it!

  147. SKI says:

    @MBunge:

    Just one more thing, because no one should be legitimately confused about the dynamic here.

    We KNOW the Clinton campaign withheld information from us.
    That decision led to an awful PR disaster.
    All we have to go on now, is a statement from Hillary’s personal physician.
    But it’s the people who don’t blindly accept this new story that have an unreasoning bias?

    Serious question: Are you so morally corrupt that you would consider it a non-issue to lie to the public?

    Why do you think Clinton’s doctor is?

    This line of thought says more about you than her doctor.

    More to the point: Yes, Clinton didn’t disclose she had walking pneumonia for 3 days. She also didn’t disclose what she ate for breakfast or how often she went to the bath room.

    Failure to disclose is only a problem if it is something that should have been disclosed. Walking pneumonia is not one of those things.

    Case in point: last year, Joe Biden had walking pneumonia. It wasn’t disclosed until yesterday when he pointed out how insane the press reaction to HRC was.

    It isn’t a “PR disaster” to anyone except the press and rabid partisans. Most people weren’t spending Sunday following the ridiculous speculation of our professional outrage machine. I’m willing to bet that when we look back in a couple weeks, there is no material movement in the polling averages over this.

  148. grumpy realist says:

    @C. Clavin: That’s why I’m giving up on the US. If we’re stupid enough to vote someone with the impulse control of a toddler and the ethics of a sociopath into office as POTUS, we deserve everything we have happen to us.

    Just don’t complain when the expected occurs, ok?

  149. george says:

    @Pch101:

    Yes. Because how is the public to know which is more serious unless the information is disclosed? Either every presidential candidate has their medical records exposed, or none (I say none for what its worth). Because there’s no way to know who has cancer or just the sniffles unless its disclosed.

    People die from pneumonia, and live through cancer (I note that McCain is still alive). Either knowledge of both are in the public interest, or neither (again, I say neither, the attack against Clinton is partisan, just as the attack against McCain was – note the long list of Presidents with undisclosed health problems, from both party’s, and then ask why it suddenly became important with first McCain and now Clinton?

  150. C. Clavin says:

    @Gavrilo:

    she had to be dragged

    enuf said…

  151. george says:

    @Grewgills:

    I was discussing McCain’s health vs Clinton’s. And note I said neither McCain nor Clinton should have released their reports (and neither should Trump, who is an absolutely horrible person to consider for President but still shouldn’t have to release his health reports).

    The partisanship comes up when given both McCain’s situation and Clinton’s, someone does the mental contortions necessary to decide that one should report and the other not. Talk to people who aren’t Democratic Party or GOP supporters, you’ll find most will say its both or none. Talk to people who are fans of one of the parties, and you’ll find they differ between McCain’s and Clinton’s need to disclose their health.

  152. Pch101 says:

    @george:

    I’m sorry, but anyone who would directly compare melanoma with a strain of pneumonia that can be treated with a course of antibiotics is a buffoon, a partisan hack or both.

    Your willingness to offer bogus comparisons and find false equivalencies gives you zero credibility. This isn’t a matter of liberalism vs. conservatism, but of rational thinking vs. stupidity.

  153. Jen says:

    @MBunge:

    Hillary Clinton just went on television and specifically and clearly stated that she did not faint.

    Fainting and near-fainting are actually different. In one situation (fainting) the subject loses consciousness.

    More from an actual doctor here.

    @Gavrilo:

    So, a major party Presidential nominee was caught on video completely incapacitated

    Again, see above.

    The pearl-clutching on this will hopefully wind down soon. And, since everyone has now clearly indicated that they always follow doctor’s orders and never, ever, ever go out when they are contagious, this year’s flu season should be an absolute breeze.

  154. CSK says:

    Obviously you guys aren’t up on the latest from the Crackpot Paranoid Conspiracy Factory:

    That wasn’t Hillary Clinton who emerged smiling from her daughter’s condo. It was a body double.

    I’m serious. I was just reading all about it on Lucianne.com.

  155. JKB says:

    Today I was remembering this scene from ‘The Americans’ season 1, episode 4 where they deal with Reagan getting shot. The couple, KGB sleeper agents, are debating the risks that it was a coup by Haig.

    (Elizabeth: “Why do you think that they’re so different, that they’re so pure?” Phillip: “The last two times our leaders died, our government pretended they weren’t dead for weeks. Things are different here.”)

    Seems no longer are things so different here.

  156. Guarneri says:

    Has the Clinton campaign dragged out the “she didn’t stumble, she was dodging sniper fire” defense yet?

  157. An Interested Party says:

    Seems no longer are things so different here.

    It is no wonder that people here just point and laugh at you…tell me, do you make your hats out of Reynolds Wrap or do you use a generic brand…

  158. Pch101 says:

    What I have learned from conservatives today:

    -Pneumonia = Cancer!

    -Pneumonia = Soviet-style death!

    Thanks for reminding me why I can’t be a conservative. I haven’t lost enough brain cells in order for that to happen.

  159. Moosebreath says:

    @MBunge:

    Please note that this is parody. Your comments suggest you may not be clear on that.

  160. C. Clavin says:

    Trumps campaign manager says he has a right to privacy…mere seconds before she slams Clinton for not being up open about her health.
    You can’t make this shit up.
    And fools like Guarneri eat it up likes it fruit loops in their mothers basement.
    The fever swamp is deep…

  161. Jenos The Deplorable says:

    It was a bad week for Hillary.

    First, she told Brian Williams that when it comes to classified information, the most important, defining thing are the “headers.” Those make all the difference. Which reminded quite a few of us of her sending an email instructing one of her aides to re-send an email after stripping off the headers.

    Then she bragged about how wonderful a job she did with Libya, noting that no American lives were lost. She conveniently forgot about the four Americans murdered in Benghazi.

    Then, on Sunday, the 4th anniversary of that attack in Benghazi, she had a “health episode” and had be carried into an SUV, so incapacitated that she lost a shoe in the process. The cause was overheating.

    Then, when people started noticing that it had been in the low 80s, with low humidity and a nice breeze, and no one else suffered from the heat, they all suddenly remembered that on Friday she had been diagnosed with pneumonia. That was so unremarkable that no one thought it ought to change her schedule for the next couple of days, so she went on fund-raising, long plane flights, and a long public appearance at Ground Zero.

    Then, when she had her attack, her entourage was so blase about it that they didn’t even bother taking her to a hospital. Instead, she spent 90 minutes recovering at Chelsea’s condo. And even that didn’t faze her entourage, who let her walk out and hug a little girl — while still suffering from pneumonia.

    At this point, the “crazy conspiracy theories” are making a hell of a lot more sense than the official story (I’m sorry — stories) from Team Hillary.

    So many of Hillary’s problems could have been avoided if she just told the truth up front. But for Hillary, that’s not her first choice. Hell, it doesn’t seem to even make her top ten choices.

    Fortunately, we have a press corps that is dedicated to uprooting the truth about presidents and their health issues. Unless, of course, the president is a Democrat, like Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, or John Kennedy.

    With Reagan, his staff did all they could to keep his health out of the public eye. But they didn’t have the advantage of a more-than-willing press corps to assist them.

    And for those who have been saying that a comatose Hillary would be a better president than Trump, you’re probably right. But a comatose Hillary would also be a better president than a conscious Hillary.

  162. george says:

    @Pch101:

    Do a bit of research on the death rates from pneumonia among the elderly before so blithely assuming its always a trivial matter that can be cured with antibiotics. And then note that McCain is still alive, and what that implies about the seriousness of his cancer.

    Now given that I already indicated that I’m voting for Clinton, as Trump is a disaster, I think we can assume I’m not a Republican partisan, which according to your analysis means I’m an idiot. That’s quite possibly true, so lets grant that and move on to why its important to disclose information about one illness with a high mortality rate among the elderly, and not a second illness with a high mortality rate among the elderly.

    So far all you’ve offered is that I’m an idiot (already granted) without any argument on the relative merits of pneumonia and cancer. In physics, “obvious from inspection” typically means you’re hoping to avoid that element of the argument due to any strong argument (its also the source of some fairly notable failures in physical models). Surely you can do better; given my lack of intelligence, it should be a trivial matter to explain in straightforward terms why it was important for McCain to disclose but not Clinton, rather than the alternative that neither or both should have disclosed. I’m also curious about how the public is to determine which illness are serious or not without disclose … do we leave that to the judgment of the candidates? If so, why would any candidate ever disclose?

  163. Steve V says:

    @Jenos The Deplorable:

    With Reagan, his staff did all they could to keep his health out of the public eye. But they didn’t have the advantage of a more-than-willing press corps to assist them.

    Do you remember this first hand? Something tells me you don’t.

  164. Jenos The Deplorable says:

    @george: Others have brought up that an even better comparison would be Paul Tsongas.

  165. Jen says:

    @george:

    Isn’t the high mortality rate among the elderly because many of those are already very, very ill?

    I speak from some personal experience, as my grandfather had Alzheimer’s for years, but pneumonia is listed as the official cause of death. One of the hospice nurses referred to pneumonia as “the old person’s friend”–it brings to a close a great deal of suffering.

  166. michael reynolds says:

    @george:

    Pneumonia is not a single disease. Sometimes it is viral, sometimes bacterial; sometimes serious, sometimes not.

    Pneumonia deaths in the elderly are almost always due to underlying health issues. Lots of people who are ‘dying’ of cancer, lets say, actually end up dying of pneumonia. If Hillary had just had an organ transplant her pneumonia would be a serious matter, as it is in people with suppressed immune systems.

    The obvious fact that she kept working a grueling schedule despite the diagnosis rather suggests this is a trivial case.

  167. David M says:

    @Jenos The Deplorable:

    Leave it to you to criticize Hillary for asking her aides to email the unclassified version of a document. It’s almost like you don’t understand the issue at all and are just making stuff up like your idol Trump.

  168. CSK says:

    @Jen:

    My father contracted bacterial pneumonia at age 90 and again at age 93. Both times he recovered beautifully after a few days in the hospital and intravenous antibiotics. He was, otherwise, very fit for his considerable age, which makes a big difference. And he had certainly been vaccinated against viral pneumonia, a real killer.

  169. george says:

    @michael reynolds:

    I agree its not a problem for Clinton. However, it was also not a problem for McCain (not all cancers are equally dangerous, and again, note he’s still alive and quite healthy). My argument is not that Clinton should disclose, but that its inconsistent for people who were pressuring McCain to disclose (which as far as I know the Clintons did not do) to give Clinton a pass, and likewise for those who were willing to give McCain a pass but now demand disclosure for Clinton.

    I’m not arguing about this election; Trump is a disaster waiting to happen, and I and probably every sane person would vote for Clinton if it were announced she was going to die the day after the election. I’m arguing about how people now accept decidedly partisan viewpoints.

  170. C. Clavin says:

    @Jenos The Deplorable:
    Well, if nothing else, Jenos has finally come to grips with his abject racism, misogyny, and xenophobia.
    The Titanic turns slowly…

  171. george says:

    @Jen:

    Yes, that’s a huge part of it. However, without disclose, how are we any more likely to know if Clinton’s pneumonia came from overwork (which I’d say it almost certainly is) rather than other causes, than we were to know if McCain’s cancer was non-life threatening (which it turned out to be) or if he was on his last legs.

    Again, you have to be insane to vote for Trump, and even if Clinton were on her death bed I would vote for her over Trump. And I don’t think Clinton should disclose; however, though I voted for Obama, I also didn’t think McCain should have disclosed. All disclosing does is let the candidate choose a doctor who will give the disclosure they want (this is pretty common in professional sports btw, especially now with concussions and return to active roster). Either legislate it be done to all candidates, and by an independent office, or drop it. And I’d say the latter – if nothing else, there is a vice-president in the wings in any case.

  172. David M says:

    @george:

    I think you’re confusing “giving her a pass” with acknowledging the fact her opponent is older and has released less medical information.

  173. Pch101 says:

    @george:

    There was reasonable speculation that McCain had Stage 3 melanoma. If true, that would have meant that his melanoma was spreading, which is associated with a high mortality rate.

    There is no comparison between Stage 3 melanoma and a form of pneumonia that can be treated with antibiotics.

  174. michael reynolds says:

    @george:

    Oh, I agree it’s inconsistent. In general I don’t think I need to know whether a candidate has a minor condition. There are a lot of things which are just not my business. Tsongas was a case where he should have disclosed – he was asking for money, asking for votes, and the 5 year survival rate for non-hodgkins lymphoma is 69% A third die within 5 years. That’s the kind of thing the voter has a right to consider.

    He’s an interesting counter-argument on age, though, since he died at 55 while McCain, as you point out, is still alive at 80.

  175. Jen says:

    @george: One thing to remember about McCain–it wasn’t just opponents who wanted him to disclose more about his health, supporters did too.

    They saw it as a necessary PR element, given the fact that his opponent was much younger. This is why they went to the rather extraordinary measure of releasing a LOT of his medical history. I honestly don’t know where I fall on this issue–it seems to me that there should be something between releasing an entire medical history, and releasing that silly statement Trump’s doctor issued.

    Meanwhile, Kellyanne Conway made yet another “Trump campaign lacks self awareness” statement when she today said that Trump “deserves privacy” talking about his medical records, while simultaneously demanding that Clinton should have been more transparent. Where do they find these people?

  176. george says:

    @Pch101:

    Yes about pneumonia and stage 3 melanoma being very different, but McCain didn’t have stage 3. So how was the incorrect speculation that McCain had stage 3 any different than the (I’d heavily bet incorrect) speculation that Clinton has Parkinson’s or whatever other boogieman some of the right wing is trotting out? It was all speculation, and again, empty speculation at that. Are you suggesting a rule that if the speculation points to a severe illness, then disclosure should result? In that case, aren’t you just encouraging people to aim high in their speculation?

  177. george says:

    @michael reynolds:

    I agree for the most part, and you bring up an interesting point about Tsongas taking money from supporters without giving them full information; disclosure as a safeguard for the candidate’s party is something to consider (again I’m talking about in general rather than for this election in particular, where anyone but Trump is the way to vote).

  178. george says:

    @Jen:

    True, some supporters did. You can also find some Clinton supporters saying she should disclose as well, just to close the subject.

    Meanwhile, Kellyanne Conway made yet another “Trump campaign lacks self awareness” statement when she today said that Trump “deserves privacy” talking about his medical records, while simultaneously demanding that Clinton should have been more transparent. Where do they find these people?

    Yup, that’s exactly the kind of inconsistency I’m discussing. Trump is older and male (both indicative of a shorter life expectancy) than Clinton, but they want her to disclose but not him – pure partisan politics.

  179. Mikey says:

    @george:

    So how was the incorrect speculation that McCain had stage 3 any different than the (I’d heavily bet incorrect) speculation that Clinton has Parkinson’s or whatever other boogieman some of the right wing is trotting out?

    We knew McCain had melanoma, regardless what stage it was. Stage three was at least possible.

    There’s literally zero evidence Mrs. Clinton has any of the maladies the right has asserted she has.

    That’s the difference.

  180. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos The Lost, Lonely Boy:

    It was a bad week for Hillary.

    Yet Nate Silver & Sam Wang still have her beating your idol handily.

  181. Pch101 says:

    @george:

    McCain has had four melanomas, including a lesion on his shoulder that was removed in 1993 and has not returned, as well as melanomas on his upper left arm in 2000 and his nose in 2002 that were of the least dangerous kind, or in situ. According to reports, the melanoma removed from McCain’s left temple in 2000 was the most serious, measuring 2.2 millimeters deep at its thickest point, and had not spread to any lymph nodes; it was thus graded a stage IIA. However, the Times reports that the medical opinions are inconsistent regarding the severity of the Senator’s melanoma.

    In particular, a pathology report done by the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology in Washington, which was based on a biopsy of the removed melanoma, suggests it may have spread from another melanoma. If this is the case, it would bump the tumor removed from his temple to a stage III. The Times quotes the report as saying, “The vertical orientation of this lesion with only focal epidermal involvement above it is highly suggestive of a metastasis of malignant melanoma and may represent a satellite metastasis of S00-9572-A.”

    “If [the temple melanoma] spread from a previous primary melanoma, then it’s a stage III,” Dr. Mark Naylor, an associate professor of dermatology at University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center in Tulsa and a prominent melanoma researcher, told DISCOVER in an interview. “That’s a crucial difference. Stages I and II are treatable and curable. Stage III and IV are advanced and very serious.”

    The Times also questioned why McCain’s doctors had performed such “extensive” surgery, including removing 30 of McCain’s lymph nodes, if the melanoma was in fact a stage IIA. However, the number of lymph nodes removed in and of itself doesn’t necessarily mean that the melanoma was more serious. “For melanomas on the head and neck, it’s always touchier,” says Naylor. “It could be just that [McCain’s] surgeons were being extra careful to look for advanced disease.”

    http://discovermagazine.com/2008/oct/29-the-truth-about-mccains-melanoma/

    ______________

    One more time: There is absolutely no comparison between that and Clinton’s pneumonia. None.

  182. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos The Lost, Lonely Boy::

    With Reagan, his staff did all they could to keep his health out of the public eye. But they didn’t have the advantage of a more-than-willing press corps to assist them.

    The affable Reagan got on with the press corps far better than Hillary or Bill for that matter. But thanks for playing…

  183. wr says:

    @Jenos The Deplorable: Nice name change there. “Jenos the Boring” would be more accurate.

  184. Jenos The Deplorable says:

    @David M: No, leave it to YOU to misrepresent what the email exchange said. Sullivan said they were having trouble sending the document through the secure fax, so Hillary instructed him to “turn into nonpaper w no identifying heading and send nonsecure.”

    I really don’t get the attitude of the Hillary rumpswabs. It amazes me how you can insist how honest she is because her latest version of events hasn’t been disproven yet, while pretending that all the previous versions that were proven as false never happened.

    It’s like you’re as brain-damaged as she is, and as incapable of remembering essential facts. And, like her, you don’t see the cognitive dissonance between “too brain-damaged to recall potentially incriminating details” and “the most qualified person ever to run for president.”

    And yes, I’ve decided to embrace the “deplorable” label Hillary just hung on about 20-25% of the electorate. Insulting that many voters is always such a good move, politically.

    Maybe she can blame that on the brain damage, too?

  185. C. Clavin says:

    @Jenos The Deplorable:

    I’ve decided to embrace the “deplorable” label

    It’s a terrific sign you are accepting what we all have known all along…that you are a racist, xenophobic, hateful, ignorant bastard. Good for you. Acceptance is the first step…

  186. Thor thormussen says:

    The number Hillary was looking for was around 27%…

  187. Mikey says:

    @Jenos The Deplorable: You don’t know what “nonpaper” means in this context, do you? Of course you don’t.

    It means to summarize the unclassified portions and send those separately. There’s a procedure for that. It certainly doesn’t mean “just pull the headers and send the thing anyway”

    Of course, you and the rest of the American right jumped immediately to the conclusion Clinton was somehow disseminating classified information, because you didn’t know what “nonpaper” means and you couldn’t be bothered to actually learn.

    Ignorant, and proudly so, with no interest in changing. You and the rest of the American right.

  188. gVOR08 says:

    A hundred and eighty seven comments, with no mention of guns.

  189. bill says:

    mike pence had a nice tweet- if there’s such a thing;

    “who is going to be president when it’s over 78°”

    subtle yet appropriate!

    but back to the dreaded “privacy” issue- we knew when reagan had polyps removed from his colon, yet hills needs to go to her daughters place and have her doc meet her there to avoid any potential leaks from the hospital staff?! seriously, there’s something even more fishy there than the usual clinton stuff.

  190. An Interested Party says:

    …we knew when reagan had polyps removed from his colon…

    Big deal…we certainly never knew about the much more serious issue of his dementia…well, not officially anyway, until well after it happened…in much the same way, Trump wouldn’t want anyone to know the results if he ever had a psychological evaluation…

  191. KM says:

    @the Q:

    Wow, are you people inane. Like, where did I say anything derogatory about blacks and their vote? Or that only white people should vote? You’ve all jumped off the pier with crazy Clinton Defense Derangement Syndrome.

    “Bubba brainwashing” isn’t derogatory in your world? Interesting…. you don’t see where half the thread came to the conclusion you have an issue with black votes not giving you want you wanted?

    Even if you happened to be repeating something verbatim (which I highly doubt since google gave me nothing of the sort), there were no quotes or anything to indicate that. We must then take these as your deliberate word choices. You consistently use aggressive and offensive terms for those you complain about – terms that are usually employed by racists, misogynists and generally angry insensitive idiots. Unless your hands aren’t connected to the rest of your body, you typed out what was a pretty thoughtless assertion and did so intentionally.

    If you don’t want people to misunderstand you, you need to speak more precisely. Unfortunately for us all, you’ve precisely shown us what you really meant with your tone. So far you’ve racked up gender-based insults in nearly every one of your posts so I highly doubt the racial one was accidental.

  192. David M says:

    @Mikey:

    The mistake you’re making is assuming Jenos actually cares about what non-paper means. It’s most likely he already knows that non-paper doesn’t mean what he’s claiming, as this has been discussed before, he just doesn’t care. He is our Trump, with no concern for the truth, ever. Making sure Democrats and liberals look bad is his goal, the truth of any discussion is completely irrelevant. He’s not capable of a good faith discussion for most political issues.

  193. Jenos The Deplorable says:

    Sunday was a fascinating insight into Team Clinton and the slavish devotion her followers have to buying 100% into her current lies, blowing right past the previous lies that they bought into 100%.

    “Hey, did you hear Hillary had to leave the 9/11 observance early?”

    “She got overheated, so shut up!”

    “It wasn’t that hot, or that humid, and it was breezy.”

    “It was heated, and she had allergy issues, so shut up!”

    “It looked a lot more serious than that.”

    “She also had pneumonia. She was diagnosed on Friday, so shut up while we all admire how she powered through it so well!”

    “There’s a video of her collapsing and being carried into her SUV.”

    “You’re a hateful sexist, so just shut up!”

    It always amazes me how so many people (especially here) so totally, completely, and absolutely buy into blatant lies, then when that lie collapses, invest so heavily into the next story, and the next one. Do you force yourself to forget the previous versions that are “no longer operative?” Do you convince yourself that the previous lies were not only somehow necessary, but downright heroic and noble for telling the series of lies?

    While I find it both repulsive and amusing, I still find myself fascinated by the pathology behind it.

  194. george says:

    @Pch101:

    One more time: There is absolutely no comparison between that and Clinton’s pneumonia. None.

    And also one more time: there is no way for the public (or opposition party) to know that if it hadn’t been disclosed.

    You’re in effect making the case for the argument that all medical assessments should be disclosed so people can judge which speculations are valid . And again, note that McCain is, in fact, still alive and apparently healthy eight years later, so the reports on how serious his cancer was were in fact false.

    I think Michael Reynolds point that McCain’s disclosure was to reassure his own people is closer to the mark – he was in no danger, but because of speculation felt he had to put the (incorrect) rumor that his health was in danger to rest. The parallel to Clinton remains – neither had a life threatening illness despite the speculation.

    Do I think Clinton should disclose? No. Do I think McCain should disclose? No. Doctor’s reports are regularly chosen by professional sports team to give the results they want (ie return to action); what is the likelihood that presidential candidates, with much more at stake than some championship, wouldn’t do the same? Either every candidate should be assessed by an independent body, or the whole health issue should be dropped. Again, is there anyone voting for Clinton (or Trump I suppose) who would change their vote if they thought health was an issue? People tend to vote for party first anyway, secondly against their opponent, and only after that for a candidate.

    Which leads to the interesting speculation that the only health report that could hurt Clinton in the election is one which showed Trump was on his deathbed – the never Trumpers might then be willing to take a chance on the GOP ticket (though Pence is also a very bad choice for president).

  195. Jen says:

    @Jenos The Deplorable:

    You should probably read up on dehydration before you go throwing around words like “lying.”

    Being even mildly dehydrated (like from taking antihistamines and other medications) can inhibit the body’s ability to cool properly. Add in being sick, standing in the sun, etc., and fainting or near-fainting can happen.

    She was dehydrated. She was overheated. Those aren’t lies. She also had/has pneumonia, which should have been shared on Friday.

    I am one of the many Americans who gets seasonal allergies, and I take Claritin and Flonase, and occasionally have to add in another decongestant along with that mix. I also have to pay very close attention to how much water I drink, because of the dehydration issue. Just last week I got dizzy mid-afternoon and realized I hadn’t had much water at all that day–and that was when I was working, not running around outdoors in the sun.

    I don’t expect you to be empathetic; I get that you don’t like her. But understanding that the underlying dehydration likely accounts for the mixed explanations is quite literally a quick Google search away.

  196. SKI says:

    @george:

    Doctor’s reports are regularly chosen by professional sports team to give the results they want (ie return to action); what is the likelihood that presidential candidates, with much more at stake than some championship, wouldn’t do the same?

    yeah, no. The sports reports you are talking about are definitively NOT the actual Doctors’ reports. They are statements from the team, coachs, players and/or agents. It is very, very rare the actual doctor releases a statement (or the team pushes through the doctor’s actual words/analysis) and you can immediately tell the difference in language.

    Almost all* high-profile politicians have very, very competent doctors** and when that physician makes a statement, it is not changed to be inaccurate in order to make the politician happy.

    __
    * Trump seems to be an exception with his family doctor, son of his previous long-time doctor and now, Dr. Oz.

    ** I am a bit biased as I’m CCO for a large group of physicians who handle many, many of the DC elite.

  197. Pch101 says:

    @george:

    You still don’t get it.

    There were good reasons to suspect that McCain may have had Stage 3 melanoma, in spite of claims to the contrary.

    In contrast, there are no good reasons to believe that Clinton is dying of pneumonia.

    These two issues are not equivalent in any way, so stop trying to rescue your lousy argument. Your point was wrong before, and it is still wrong.

  198. george says:

    @Pch101:

    These two issues are not equivalent in any way, so stop trying to rescue your lousy argument. Your point was wrong before, and it is still wrong.

    Oddly enough, that’s exactly my assessment of your argument. The only reason there were good reasons to suspect McCain was because of disclosures of his medical records. It was not obvious from looking at him that he had cancer. You’re taking the disclosures that gave good reasons as a given, rather than as disclosures in their own right; in science and engineering that is considered very poor argument, though perhaps its acceptable in politics.

  199. Pch101 says:

    @george:

    It was not obvious from looking at him that he had cancer.

    Er, he had a melanoma removed from his face. Take a better look next time.

    Clinton released medical records six weeks ago. I’m sure that you’re owed an apology for the fact that her lethal case of non-lethal pneumonia hadn’t yet incubated as of that date. Perhaps she should have daily physicals to satisfy you and your passion for false equivalency.

  200. george says:

    @Pch101:

    Er, he had a melanoma removed from his face. Take a better look next time.

    Good catch, I got sloppy and forgot to add “stage 3” in my description; one shouldn’t post when rushed.

    His melanoma removal was about as indicative as her fainting. Again, his life was not in danger – I don’t know how to state that any clearer. He’s walking around eight years later. Neither is Clinton. She’s moving around without fainting now. Neither owed anyone any medical disclosure.

  201. Pch101 says:

    @george:

    I’ve already provided an article that explains in detail why McCain could be reasonably suspected of having a Stage 3 melanoma. Go read it.

  202. Thor thormussen says:

    OT but funny: hackers released a buncha stolen colin powell emails.

    “Yup, the whole birther movement was racist” -colin powell

  203. Bill says:

    @An Interested Party: so when Obama said she was “unfit” to be prez 8 years ago- do you think he knew something?’ Hmmm…

  204. Jenos The Deplorable says:

    @Jen: Being even mildly dehydrated (like from taking antihistamines and other medications) can inhibit the body’s ability to cool properly. Add in being sick, standing in the sun, etc., and fainting or near-fainting can happen.

    She was dehydrated. She was overheated. Those aren’t lies. She also had/has pneumonia, which should have been shared on Friday.

    So, we’re going to take Story 1 (the heat) and Story 2 (dehydration), along with Story 3 (the pneumonia) as gospel, now that they’ve all been trotted out, one at a time. And those of us who were skeptical that each Story was the whole truth should be ashamed for (correctly) doubting it.

    Let’s also not notice that her aides report that she hates to drink water, but in 2008 helps stay healthy by drinking lots and lots of water.

    And let’s really, really not notice that the main conspiracy theory about Hillary’s health is far more consistent with what we’ve observed than Hillary’s Stories… at least so far. I’m sure that we’ll have more Stories in the future as other events occur.

    Nixon’s aides actually had the gall to declare that their previous lies were “inoperative.” With Hillary, we’re all just supposed to pretend they never happened. And the media plays right along.

    For example, there’s Chris Cillizza of the Washington Post. In 2008, he said that it was absolutely critical to examine McCain’s health. Last week, he argued “can’t we just stop talking about Hillary’s health now?” Four days later, he had to eat those words.

    For another example: Bill Clinton was giving an interview about Hillary to CBS.

    “Well, if it is then it’s a mystery to me and all of her doctors,” Bill Clinton said when Rose asked him if Hillary Clinton was simply dehydrated or if the situation was more serious. “Frequently — well not frequently, rarely, on more than one occasion, over the last many, many years, the same sort of thing’s happened to her when she got severely dehydrated, and she’s worked like a demon, as you know, as Secretary of State, as a senator, and in the year since.”

    When aired, CBS cut out the “Frequently — well, not frequently” part.

  205. Bob@Youngstown says:

    @Jenos The Deplorable: When the source is DailyCaller, I just scroll on past your post.

  206. bill says:

    @Jenos The Deplorable: apparently she gets dehydrated/passes out more often than reported- said her husband! but the media edited his “poor choice of words” so us common folk didn’t have to hear them.
    pravda/tass got nothing on our msm!

  207. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos The Deplorable:

    You know Benos, there is one thing I think we can all agree on. Seventy year old dehydrated Hillary Clinton can take your candy ass down three falls out of three.

  208. Jenos The Deplorable says:

    And now Bill says that Hillary got the flu, like millions of people do every year.

    Someone help me out — which Story is this one?

    1) Heat.

    2) Allergies.

    3) Pneumonia.

    4) The flu.

    Did I miss one? Or — more likely — more than one?

  209. Jenos The Deplorable says:

    @anjin-san: your candy ass

    You find my ass tasty and sweet, and want to lick it?

    Eww… no. A world of no.

    Not judging you, but… no, I am judging you. And I’m finding you disgusting.

    P{lease aim your prurient, perverted sexual desires somewhere else. ANYWHERE else.

  210. Mikey says:

    @bill:

    mike pence had a nice tweet- if there’s such a thing;

    “who is going to be president when it’s over 78°”

    Awww, that’s cute.

    But who’s gonna be President when Putin makes a hard left turn and snaps Trump’s neck?

  211. george says:

    @Pch101:

    And the meat of those reports is composed of medical opinions – ie medical disclosures. Without those all you have is Clinton fainting and McCain with spots and then a scar.

  212. Pch101 says:

    @george:

    Did you fail to read the article that I provided, or did you just not comprehend its contents?

    Either way, you have difficulty grasping the facts here.

  213. george says:

    @Pch101:

    Yes, twice. It doesn’t make the point you seem to think it makes. In fact, it reinforces mine – a medical opinion is need to make sense of symptoms.

    Look, I’ll try one more time. Without medical opinion, all the public has is Clinton fainting and McCain with spots and then a scar.

  214. Pch101 says:

    @george:

    I realize that you aren’t good at this stuff, otherwise you would know that your point is factually inaccurate.

    We don’t just have a fainting spell for Clinton. We also have a physical for Clinton from the end of July that gives her a reasonably clean bill of health.

    We didn’t just have a scar on McCain’s face. We also had a history of recurring melanoma, combined with claims that he had Stage 2 melanoma but with details provided by his physicians that were more consistent with a Stage 3 cancer, hence the doubt.

    These two circumstances can only seem to be alike if you don’t grasp the subject, and you clearly don’t.

  215. Anjin-san says:

    @Jenos The Deplorable

    Funny how quickly you are to turn to homoerotic fantasy. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. But to be honest, I have men hitting on me that would be very attractive if I was inclined that way. Afraid man-skank like you would Not be in the running.

  216. Jenos The Deplorable says:

    @Anjin-san: Funny how quickly you are to turn to homoerotic fantasy.

    Sorry, wr’s constant homoerotic imagery must be affecting me. Plus, I pay very, very little attention to what you say.

    Tell you what: bump up your signal-to-noise ratio to where you actually say something relevant and on topic, and I’ll give your comments a skosh more attention. But as long as you only engage in (really lame) personal attacks, I really don’t feel obligated to give you the slightest bet of acknowledgement.

    Hell, feel free to simply ignore me. It’s easier than you think — just omit the juvenile ad hominem comments, and you’ll have done it.

  217. anjin-san says:

    Say Jenos, how is your expose of the NFL’s double standard coming along?

    Great job Jeannie!

  218. george says:

    @Pch101:

    I realize that you aren’t good at this stuff, otherwise you would know that your point is factually inaccurate.

    Look, let’s just agree I have an IQ four standard deviations below average, and dropped out of school in grade two; I am, as you indicated previously, an idiot. I’m not sure how that changes the observation that the bill of health for Clinton you site came from a medical professional, and the history of reoccurring melanoma for McCain also came from medical professionals. You’re again buttressing my point: disclosures from medical professionals are needed for the public to make sense of symptoms.

  219. Pch101 says:

    @george:

    You insist on making arguments that are based upon misrepresentations of the facts. In the process, you make obviously bogus comparisons that show you don’t understand much about medicine.

    So why should anyone take you seriously?

  220. george says:

    @Pch101:

    My argument is that the reports on McCain’s health you refer to, and those on Clinton’s pneumonia, are from medical professionals. If that’s incorrect I admit I’m guilty of misrepresenting the facts, though on first glance that scenario raises even more serious difficulties for your argument. For instance, if it wasn’t medical professionals who wrote the report on McCain’s health, what weight should those reports carry?

    And since we’ve already agreed that I’m an uneducated idiot, there is clearly no point in anyone taking me seriously. However, what I write, even if it came about from random typing on a keyboard (the old million monkeys test), stands or falls on its own merits, independent of my lack of intelligence.

  221. Pch101 says:

    Pneumonia ≠ Melanoma.

    Enough already.

  222. george says:

    @Pch101:

    Enough already.

    We do seem to be repeating ourselves.