Hawaii’s Governor Seeks To End The Birther Myth Once And For All

Hawaii's new Governor is taking on the Birther myth.

Neil Abercrombie, the former Congressman who is now Hawaii’s new Governor, is on a one man crusade to finally silence the myth that Barack Obama was not born in Hawaii:

HONOLULU — Gov. Neil Abercrombie of Hawaii, who befriended President Obama’s parents when they were university students here, has been in office for less than three weeks. But he is so incensed over “birthers” — the conspiracy theorists who assert that Mr. Obama was born in Kenya and was thus not eligible to become president — that he is seeking ways to change state policy to allow him to release additional proof that the president was born in Honolulu in 1961.

“It’s an insult to his mother and to his father, and I knew his mother and father; they were my friends, and I have an emotional interest in that,” Governor Abercrombie said in a telephone interview late Thursday. “It’s an emotional insult. It is disrespectful to the president; it is disrespectful to the office.”

The governor, a Democrat and former congressman, said he has initiated conversations with the state’s attorney general and the chief of its Health Department about how he can release more explicit documentation of Mr. Obama’s birth on Aug. 4, 1961, at Kapiolani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital. He said he has done so of his own accord, without consulting the White House, which declined to comment.

“He’s a big boy; he can take sticks and stones. But there’s no reason on earth to have the memory of his parents insulted by people whose motivation is solely political,” Mr. Abercrombie said. “Let’s put this particular canard to rest.”

And Abercrombie has some specific knowledge relevant to the whole silly controversy:

Mr. Abercrombie, 72, said that although he did not see the elder Obamas at the hospital with their newborn son, he did remember the couple bringing the baby to social events. He says the critics who suggest that Mr. Obama’s mother slipped off to Kenya to give birth are engaging in a “demonological fantasy.” And he is angry about legislation in several states that would require presidential candidates to document that they were born in this country. A similar bill died in Congress last year.

“My thought was, ‘Wait a minute, why didn’t you ask me, my friends in the national Congress, the House of Representatives?’ ” he said. “They know me, they know that I was here, but they didn’t even bother to have the courtesy to do that, which is disappointing to me, because it is very difficult for me not to conclude that bills like that are meant as a coded message that he is not really American. My thought is, rather than get into some kind of argument or play into that mentality, why not just simply try to authenticate this and let the facts speak for themselves?”

The problem, of course, is that the facts, and logic, don’t matter to the people who continue to believe that the President is not Constitutionally eligible to be President. Presented with the evidence of a Certification Of Live Birth from the State of Hawaii, the only document that Hawaii issues to verify births, they either claim it’s a forgery or that it isn’t good enough and they must see the “long form” birth certificate. They make up the false claim that Hawaiian law at the time allowed parents to get a birth certificate for their child `even if the child was born in a foreign country. They spin a bizarre tale to attempt to prove that the President’s mother somehow made her way to Kenya while she was pregnant with him in 1964. And, they make up the law to argue that one can only be a “natural born” citizen if both of your parents were a citizen at the time you were born.

Like I said, facts and logic don’t matter to these people. Most of them are, I am convinced, motivated by racism and prejudice and they aren’t going to be persuaded by anything that doesn’t fit into their worldview.

So, good luck Governor, but I fear that by taking these people  on you’re just going to encourage them more.

FILED UNDER: Barack Obama, Politicians, US Politics
Doug Mataconis
About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May 2010. Before joining OTB, he wrote at Below The BeltwayThe Liberty Papers, and United Liberty Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. Eric Florack says:

    But he is so incensed over “birthers” — the conspiracy theorists who assert that Mr. Obama was born in Kenya and was thus not eligible to become president — that he is seeking ways to change state policy to allow him to release additional proof that the president was born in Honolulu in 1961.

    So, Abercrombie is a Democrat. And likley as not will not be Gov of the state for long, having een appointed to some gravy job as a thank you. (yawn)

    The problem, of course, is that the facts, and logic, don’t matter to the people who continue to believe that the President is not Constitutionally eligible to be President.

    The problem, Doug is that there IS no evidence in this. What we have is anecdotal at best, and as usual with Democrats facts have little to do with such… Next we’ll hear from him about how the events surrounding Obama’s supposed father were ‘seared, seared I tell you” into his memory.

    Go ahead, Doug… tell us about how we’re all being silly again.

  2. Eric,

    Abercrombie won an election. If you can’t get that basic fact right then I really don’t want to hear your bizarre theories about the President’s birth

  3. Eric, if you still believe, after all of the facts, documents, and everything else that has come about proving that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii, then you’re beyond silly. You’re just making stuff up at this point.

  4. largebill says:

    “Like I said, facts and logic don’t matter to these people. Most of them are, I am convinced, motivated by racism and prejudice and they aren’t going to be persuaded by anything that doesn’t fit into their worldview.”

    The birthers are fools, but you make yourself out to be just another liberal who has to pull out the race card when you throw that crap in your column. The Kenyan birth silliness was fueled not by racism, but by Obama’s grandma claiming she was there when he was born in Kenya. Who knows why she said it? My guess is she wanted to get a little bit of his growing fame. Obama helped fuel the belief by his refusal to release any of his records. Whether you’re talking about his school records, work records, or whatever, he was the most secretive and most poorly vetted candidate ever.

  5. Zelsdorf Ragshaft III says:

    Nice try. I did not notice the name of a hospital or attending doctors name. Doug, do you know the process for getting a certificate of live birth in Hawaii? That is not a birth certificate. Mine has my littel feet prints on it, the hospital where I was born and the attending doctors name, as does yours. All it took to get what is pictured is an affidavid stating the individual was born here. That could have taken place after the fact. Notice is was files 4 days after the fact. Mine is on the day of my birth. So is yours. But, this is all just a distraction. It is not where he was born that is the issue, but who he was born to. His father was Kenyan and his mother was a U.S.citizen. That would confer upon him the status of natural citizen due to his mother’s citizenship. However the Office of President of the United States requires a special status of Natural Born Citizen. Both of his parents would have to have been U.S. citizens at the time of his birth for that requirement to have been satisfied. But for the exceptions listed in the Constitution, all U.S. Presidents save for Obama have met this requirement. We see the results in Obama’s treatment of our closest ally, the UK, due to Obama’s Kenyan roots.
    You can discuss whether or not Natural Born Citizen requirement is as I have written, but if it does not, why was it written that way?

  6. John says:

    Of course obama was born in the US! People are stupid to think otherwise! Hell, these same morons had no problem with a president who was AWOL from the national Guard. Idiots.

  7. steve says:

    “Mine has my littel feet prints on it, the hospital where I was born and the attending doctors name, as does yours.”

    Mine doesn’t.

    Steve

  8. george says:

    I’m beginning to think this is a side issue thrown up by the press (both liberal and conservative) when things are slow … it manages to get people on both sides of the issue up in arms, generating a lot of arguments (and so interest), without actually meaning anything at all.

    One of the great, safe, non-issues of the day.

  9. Zelsdorf Ragshaft III says:

    John, if you think Bush was AWOL, it is not us who the term idiot should be applied. Show papers which the charges on them John or STFU.

  10. Mr Evilwrench says:

    As much as some people claim that there is incontrovertible evidence that he was born in Hawaii, that evidence has not, in my opinion, been presented. What have we really seen? The “certificate of live birth”? At best this is inconclusive, and there have been at least three versions of it presented online, all of them questionable and none truly valuable. What has never been presented is a definitive birth certificate. What has been systematically suppressed, by the man himself, is any evidence to the contrary, as well as his transcripts and anything else of value. Why has he spent so much money to seal records? If this doesn’t raise your suspicions, I would suggest there is something wrong with you, not me. I don’t agree with him in any way, and I would relish any opportunity to reject him, but it must be done lawfully. How about you? The truly valuable, definitive documentation, if it exists, should be easy to produce. Why has it not been?

  11. michael reynolds says:

    Most of them are, I am convinced, motivated by racism and prejudice and they aren’t going to be persuaded by anything that doesn’t fit into their worldview.

    Yep.

  12. RW Rogers says:

    Most of them are, I am convinced, motivated by racism and prejudice

    Doesn’t that require a higher degree of intelligence than most are capable of?

    (Note: not arguing HIGH intelligence required, just a tad more than moronic.)

  13. mom of 4 says:

    Ok, so this is my first post on a website that I love. I am a strong Independent and vote for the person, not the party. I am confused about this issue of whether or not I would be able to be President of the United States…

    I was adopted as an infant in Pennsylvania and have a “Certificate of Live Birth” from there. It does not have any of the following on it:

    1. Hospital I was born in
    2. Footprints
    3. It doesn’t even have my parents (birth or adopted) names on it

    All it has on it is my name, date of birth, and city (Philadelphia) on it with a raised seal. That’s it. So far, it has gotten me a driver’s license (in PA and VA), a voter card, a marriage license, and a passport.

    So I guess what some people are saying is that anyone who was adopted in the Keystone State of Pennsylvania is ineligible to become President of the United States?

    Oh, and my kids all have a “Certificate of Live Birth” from the State of Virginia with no hospital or footprints on it, either. So I guess they can’t be the President, either? But it has gotten them passports.

  14. michael reynolds says:

    Mom:

    Depends. Are any of you black?

  15. @Mom of 4,

    That’s what I have for my three kids as well (one borrn in Texas and two born in Alabama). As you note, such documents will get one a passport. As such, they are legal proof of birth and what most people mean when they speak of a “birth certificate” and yet some people will remain unpersuabadle no matter what.

  16. floyd says:

    “I knew his mother and father; they were my friends, and I have an emotional interest in that,”
    “””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

    Neil;
    Your support hardly adds credibility, easpecially since your interest is
    emotional and not factual.
    Get over it already, The issue is irrelevant, myth or not.

  17. mom of 4 says:

    No. 😉

    But my husband is Chinese…and his paternal great grandfather was a stowaway on a boat to NYC, and his mother (born in NYC, moved Philippines during WWII, moved back to NYC after) was in a concentration camp in Philippines during WWII.

  18. Eric Florack says:

    Abercrombie won an election

    So winning an election makes him immune to political motivations, and to wanting to better his condition? Or is it only White Republican femakes from Alaska that remove themselves from office when they see something better coming down the pike?

  19. Eric Florack says:

    Eric, if you still believe, after all of the facts, documents

    Which are those?

    I’ve seen much in the way of attempts, but none rises to the leveel of proofs that would be required for a Republican.

  20. anjin-san says:

    > So winning an election makes him immune to political motivations, and to wanting to better his condition?

    No, it just says that you are a raging idiot who, as Doug pointed out, can’t even get a basic fact straight.

    Now why don’t you tell us again the north was 2 weeks away from defeat in the Vietnam War when liberals handed them victory? Then you can tell us how the U.S. Armed Forces are not part of the federal government. Do you have an stories about being abducted by space aliens you want to share?

    You are not even good for laughs anymore…

  21. As Eric and Zels show, this is a pointless effort. No matter what evidence you release, they’ll just make up new rules to show why it still doesn’t count.

    You don’t deal with delusional people by indulging their delusions.

  22. An Interested Party says:

    “Get over it already, The issue is irrelevant, myth or not.”

    Tell that to the birthers…this issue only helps the president, as anyone who doesn’t believe he was born in Hawaii can be rightly characterized as a conspiracy loon…such people do a disservice to themselves and others who want to successfully oppose the president…

  23. sam says:

    Nothing, absolutely nothing, not even a preserved time-date stamped placenta, signed by the then-governor of Hawaii, the two senators from Hawaii, the mayor of Honolulu, and the chief of obstetrics in the hospital will ever, ever convince the likes of BitEric, Zesldorf, and their ilk. The former is delusional beyond hope of redemption and the latter is a moron who couldn’t pour piss out of boot if the directions were printed on the heel. They are beyond any argument.

  24. michael reynolds says:

    Mom:

    My daughter is Chinese by birth and thus ineligible to be president. Which is good, really, as I have higher aspirations for her.

  25. michael reynolds says:

    Eric:

    You need help. You’ve slipped off the rail.

  26. Zelsdorf Ragshaft III says:

    You are using misdirection. Obama was born in Hawaii, however his father was not a U. S. Citizen and at the time of his birth Obama had duel citizenship. That being a British Citizen due to his fathers citizenship and that of his mother which is American. Look up, or have someone versed in the English language look up for you, the meaning of Natural BORN citizen. It is matters not where he was born but it matters a great deal who he was born to. His father was not an American citizen and that is the part that makes Obama ineligible to hold the postion he holds. I am willing to bet most who call people birthers who question Obama’s birth firmly believe the freezing temperatures are a sign of global warming. Go figure.

  27. floyd says:

    Tell that to the birthers…this issue only helps the president, as anyone who doesn’t believe he was born in Hawaii can be rightly characterized as a conspiracy loon…such people do a disservice to themselves and others who want to successfully oppose the president…

    “”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

    Aip;
    I think I just did, and also to the “culters” who could be correctly characterized as so blinded by their object of worship to preclude the exercise of any healthy skepticizm.”Myth or not.

  28. floyd says:

    “Nothing, absolutely nothing….”
    “”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

    Sam;
    Yet you continue on, in a futile effort, with a religious fervor.
    Frustrating ain’t it?
    Especially since the subject is no longer relevant!
    Why would you care? It is clear that B.O. himself clearly couldn’t care less.

  29. Eric Florack says:

    Now why don’t you tell us again the north was 2 weeks away from defeat in the Vietnam War when liberals handed them victory?

    IN fact there are many who argue we’d already won. For one…
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CFsQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ashbrook.org%2Fpublicat%2Foped%2Fowens%2F04%2Fvietnam.html&rct=j&q=vietnam%20two%20weeks%20away%20from%20winning&ei=RLUXTcTwF4ep8Abm34DoDQ&usg=AFQjCNG5lAL6MHJQsKykWVI2l6Cn4_kefQ&sig2=-XaFXTuXHsklfluLUDYqjw&cad=rja

    But the two weeks reference comes from a then retired North Vietnamese General, … Vo Nguyen Giap….and I still stand by this.

    Then you can tell us how the U.S. Armed Forces are not part of the federal government.

    An example of my indicating this would be helpful. Or do you plan to offer as much support for this as Obama has for his eligibility?

    BTW… nice little diversion, Anjn…. nice try anyway.

  30. An Interested Party says:

    “Myth or not.”

    If something is a myth, it deserves complete skepticism…

    “It is clear that B.O. himself clearly couldn’t care less.”

    On the contrary, I would imagine the president gets a kick out of all of this, as it can be used to paint his enemies as loons not to be taken seriously…

  31. Rob in Denver says:

    Natural born citizen = citizen by birth. The Constitution doesn’t define precisely what it means. But that document does allow Congress to define it. And Congress has. See Title 8, Chapter 12, Subchapter III, Part I, § 1401 of the US Code. Stanley Ann Dunham was a US citizen. Her children, who were her biological children, inherit her citizenship according to the US Code under any scenario Birthers want to cook up.

  32. wr says:

    If the governor does dig up that famous “long form certificate,” then the morons of the world wil claim that it’s forged, and that proof of the forgery is that it took so many years to appear, and that it was produced by a Democrat. And just like Bit did with the Vietnam question, they will point as proof to some nonsense scrawled by another loser just as delirious as they are.

    They will never go away, they will never stop holding on to this nonsese, and they will never shut up.

  33. Obama was born in Hawaii, however his father was not a U. S. Citizen and at the time of his birth Obama had duel citizenship.

    See what I mean? The “that isn’t a real birth certificate” ship has sunk, so they just switch to the “He’s not a citizen because his dad wasn’t” ship. When someone is complaining that the government isn’t enforincg the imaginary laws they just made up, there’s no point in trying to convince them anymore.

    Rational argument cannot hope to change an opinion that wasn’t arrived at rationally to begin with.

  34. mannning says:

    Whether any evidence to the contrary exists of Obama’s birthplace in Hawaii or not, we have an elected President that will serve out his term or terms. There is no reset ot undo button we can press, much as it would be desirable to stop the plus changes to our debt levels immediately. All energies and focus should be directed to his and his party’s defeat in 2012, and not wasted on such unwinnable arguments. We need all of these progressives out of power!

    If it is in fact a conspiracy, it is well-covered and virtually impossible to unravel, except by time and accident and human frailty—or devine intervention! .

    If it is not a conspiracy, which is heavily odds-on, then no amount of scrounging around or wailing at the wall right now, here or elsewhere, will result in anything but redicule, especially from the faithful!

    So play the odds, and work on 2012 and all of the substantive issues in between now and then!

  35. anjin-san says:

    > IN fact there are many who argue we’d already won.

    True. There are also many who think the moon landing was a hoax.

    > An example of my indicating this would be helpful

    A long discussion right here on OTB. Our own James Joyner was involved, and he essentially told you you were full of it on the issue. Really dude, don’t embrasses yourself.

    As for Vietnam, there is no question our forces did a lot of ass kicking there. Won all kinds of battles. In a military sense, TET was a disaster for the north (big win politically, though)

    Tell me bit, do you read much history? The Punic Wars? Study up on Hannibal. A brilliant general. Master tactician. Kicked the Romans asses all over the place. In the Battle of Cannae, he inflicted a truly crushing defeat on the Romans, on their home ground. But he had little in the way of strategic vision, and he never got around to winning the war, despite so many victories. (reading on Fabius “the Delayer” is also worthwhile).

    Long story short, Hannibal could not close the deal. Eventually, he gave up and went home. People still talk about his brilliance, Rome is still a major city, and Carthage has been a ruin for ages.

    Doing some reading on the long history between China & Vietnam is also worthwhile. China never had much luck bringing those pesky Vietnameese to heel either.

    Of course you could just find a few articles that support the conclusion that your ideology already gave you, that is A LOT easier than reading actual history books and thinking for yourself.

  36. mpw280 says:

    It is amazing that a man who has spent most of his political life having the press dig up sealed information on his opponents, won most of his elections by having the opposition declared ineligible and had the press question McCain’s citizenship due to being born in an American Military Hospital while his father was serving in Panama, wouldn’t want to clear this up. Welcome to Chicago politics. Just watching Rahm pull off his candidacy despite of his lack of residency and then forcing out Jesse Jr, and the rest of the field, due to strategically applied dirt, it should be no shock that Obama wouldn’t want to clear this up if he can use it to keep his opponents off balance. All that said, I wouldn’t mind a law stating that the candidate must prove natural born status before running for the office of president. mpw

  37. wr says:

    MPW — And who is defining “natural born status”? Because the birther freaks seem to think it means not being born black, or something. Maybe it means not being a Democrat.

    Funny thing is, that phrase is actually never defined in the Constitution. The birther thugs have invented this rule that it’s somehow different than a regular old citizen, but their only authority for that is the ass from which they’ve pulled it.

    Aside from that, good job on regurgitating more right-wing whining lies in one paragraph than I would have thought possible.

  38. mom of 4 says:

    Mr. Florack, Mr. Ragshaft and mpw280,

    In being open minded to understanding your position(s), I believe that you are saying that:

    1. Anyone who was born here, but whose parents were not citizens *at the time of that persons birth* is ineligible to be President of the United States. Correct? So essentially, any first generation immigrants could not be President?

    2. Since I can’t prove that my birth parents were (or even are) citizens (due to closed adoption laws from the 1960s), you are saying that I am ineligible to be President, as is any other person who was adopted through a closed (legally) adoption?

    3. So in the future, any person who would like to be President of the United States, needs to first show proof of their own parents citizenship at the time of the candidate’s birth?

    4. That a Certificate of Live Birth from any state is insufficient evidence of citizenship?

    Thank you for your answers. I am really just trying to better understand your positions.

  39. An Interested Party says:

    “It is amazing that a man who has spent most of his political life having the press dig up sealed information on his opponents, won most of his elections by having the opposition declared ineligible and had the press question McCain’s citizenship due to being born in an American Military Hospital while his father was serving in Panama, wouldn’t want to clear this up.”

    Obviously he’s learned well from the likes of Karl Rove and Lee Atwater…

  40. anjin-san says:

    2. Since I can’t prove that my birth parents were (or even are) citizens (due to closed adoption laws from the 1960s), you are saying that I am ineligible to be President, as is any other person who was adopted through a closed (legally) adoption?

    Not only are you not eligible to be President, you are probably a communist.

  41. mpw280 says:

    wr you are the racist as usual, I said nothing about color, just that Obama and his camp followers brought up McCain’s birth and then had it come back to haunt them. Don’t give a damn about color, but if you question your opposition’s status due to his father being an Admiral on station then you better be ready to prove your status, in complete detail, as well.

    mo4 open to legal interpretation, as I understand it, would be your situation as it is vague in the constitution.

    Obviously interested you have it backwards, maybe Rove learned by watching old man Daley operate.

    Since the governor of the state of Hawaii seems to think there is more to the issue than is out in the public right now, maybe there is a long form that could clear this up once and for all, but remember it is a democrat that brought this back to the surface for all to dwell on.

    mpw

  42. @mpw280:

    While I recall a news story or two on McCain’s birth place (it was brought up in 2000 as well), it was treated mostly as a curiosity and never came anywhere near to to the level of attention that the Obama birth certificate issue was.

    You assertions that there was some concerted effort n the party of the Obama campaign or its allies is false.

    And Zels is simply wrong on his definition of “natural born”–it is pure fantasy. I hate to tell him, but the child of illegal immigrants born in the US would be a natural born citizen.

  43. mpw280 says:

    ST, the NYT ran the story, and they weren’t backing any candidate in particular were they, nah not a bit.
    mpw

  44. ST, the NYT ran the story, and they weren’t backing any candidate in particular were they, nah not a bit.

    Google News results for “john mccain birth certificate” – 30, which on a quick skim also seems to cover a lot of the recent Lakin stuff, meaning they’re actually about Obama.

    Google News results for “barack obama birth certificate” – 442

    NYTimes.com results for “barack obama birth certificate” – 323

    NYTimes.com results for “john mccain birth certificate” – 15

    Admittedly, this is a quick and dirty form of research, but it leads to some interesting results. Draw your own conclusions.

  45. jwest says:

    As with so many subjects, if Doug had a coherent argument, he would have made it.

    While we wait for Doug’s article that will lay out a reasonable alternative to Sarah Palin’s resignation as governor of Alaska, and for Doug’s explanation of why Palin’s actions at the AOGCC shouldn’t be taught to school children as a lesson in honesty and courage, we can ask once again about Obama………

    Why won’t he release the records?

    It’s a simple question. If you can’t come up with rational answer, perhaps you’re on the wrong side of this issue.

  46. James H says:

    Additional wrinkle: Some of the more extreme birthers then move on to allege that even if you produce a birth certificate, the citizenship of one or both of Obama’s parents precludes him from being a “natural born citizen.”

  47. anjin-san says:

    > explanation of why Palin’s actions at the AOGCC shouldn’t be taught to school children as a lesson in honesty and courage, we can ask once again about Obama……

    Probably because most school children can give a coherent answer to the question “what newspapers and magazines do you read”.

    I think Sarah should be going to the kids for tutoring, not the other way around…

  48. Regarding McCain: click.

  49. While we wait for Doug’s article that will lay out a reasonable alternative to Sarah Palin’s resignation as governor of Alaska

    You mean reasonable alternatives like serving out one’s term?

  50. Howard says:

    Abercrombie, a newly-elected Democrat, told CNN that he will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to prove once and for all that Obama was born in Hawaii. Whatever it takes, uh huh, whatever that means.

  51. The Q says:

    Btw, Eric, just to set the record straight and totally destroy your feeble argument about Abercrombie and his partisan interest in clearing Obama, how do you counter this fact

    Linda Lingle was the REPUBLICAN governor before and here is what she said on the matter:

    “More than a year and half after Barack Obama was elected commander in chief, the governor of Hawaii is now publicly voicing the alleged exact location of Obama’s birth, saying “the president was, in fact, born at Kapi’olani Hospital in Honolulu, Hawaii.”

    The disclosure is believed to be the first time a state government official has declared the precise place where Obama was born, despite numerous other published claims, including some for a different hospital in Honolulu.

    The remark came Sunday night when Gov. Linda Lingle, a Republican, was interviewed on New York’s WABC Radio by host Rabbi Shmuley Boteach”……

    But according to Eric and his tin foil hat cohort, Lingle must be a paid CIA agent who is obviously lying to protect a fellow Hawaiian right you loon?

  52. The Q says:

    Uh, Howard what that means is he will try and placate morons like yourself who will only be convinced if they shoved the original documents right up skeptics asses.

  53. anjin-san says:

    I think Eric has long since fled…

  54. mom of 4 says:

    I find it interesting that Mr. Ragshaft and Mr. Florack have not answered my questions.

    And mpw280, if my situation is vague, how is “natural born citizen” not vague also, and thus not make Mr. Obama a “natural born citizen”? Should all candidates for President have to show that their parents were citizens at the time of said candidates birth?

    Personally, I believe most of the Constitution is purposefully vague and open to interpretation, depending upon who is doing the interpretating (see first amendment on religion for example). Thus the beauty of the 3 branches of government for checks and balances.

  55. anjin-san says:

    > I find it interesting that Mr. Ragshaft and Mr. Florack have not answered my questions.

    Around here, it’s refereed to as a “rant ‘n run” 🙂

  56. george says:

    “If it is in fact a conspiracy, it is well-covered and virtually impossible to unravel, except by time and accident and human frailty—or devine intervention! .

    If it is not a conspiracy, which is heavily odds-on, then no amount of scrounging around or wailing at the wall right now, here or elsewhere, will result in anything but redicule, especially from the faithful!”

    Agree, and it is in fact a great issue for the democrats. I predict that come 2012 they will be the ones who try to bring it up again, hoping to stir up the birthers – nothing like having your opponents look like kooks to help your own cause.

    The truthers hurt the democrats, the birthers hurt the republicans … partisans on both sides are safe votes, and so its the middle which determine the outcome. And most of the middle considers both truthers and birthers to be wing-nuts.

  57. Jay Tea says:

    I find it interesting that Mr. Ragshaft and Mr. Florack have not answered my questions.

    You get used to it, Mom. I asked a question on one of Doug’s endless Palin-bashing threads of those who like to criticize her, and the only one who didn’t ignore it explicitly said they weren’t going to answer.

    J.

  58. floyd says:

    Uh, Howard what that means is he will try and placate morons like yourself who will only be convinced if they shoved the original documents right up skeptics asses.
    “”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
    Uh, The Q
    …a little too late, they’ve already got a certain 3800 page document up there with no “proctical” way of extraction. Guess they were trying to improve the smell?