Shouting ‘Liar’ in a Crowded Congress

The big news surrounding President Obama’s latest heathcare speech is that South Carolina Republican Rep. Joe Wilson shouted “You lie!” in response to the claim that illegal immigrants would not be covered under universal coverage:

AP (“Obama heckled by GOP during speech to Congress“):

The nastiness of August reached from the nation’s town halls into the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday as President Barack Obama tried to move his health care plan forward.

South Carolina Republican Rep. Joe Wilson shouted “You lie!” after Obama had talked about illegal immigrants. It wasn’t the only interruption during Obama’s speech to a joint session of Congress in the House of Representatives. Earlier, Republicans laughed when Obama acknowledged that there are still significant details to be worked out before a health overhaul can be passed.

Wilson’s outburst caused Obama to pause briefly before he went on with his speech. Overhead in the visitors’ gallery, first Lady Michelle Obama shook her head from side to side.

Carl Hulse, NYT (“In Lawmaker’s Outburst, a Rare Breach of Protocol“):

In an angry and very audible outburst, Representative Joe Wilson, Republican of South Carolina, interrupted President Obama’s speech Wednesday night with a shout of “You lie!”

His eruption — in response to Mr. Obama’s statement that Democratic health proposals would not cover illegal immigrants — stunned members of both parties in the House chamber.

Democrats said it showed lack of respect for the office of the presidency and was reminiscent of Republican disruptions at recent public forums on health care. “It is outrageous,” said Representative Joseph Crowley, Democrat of New York, who said it reminded him of the “antics that are being used to disrupt and fog what is going on.” After the speech, Rahm Emanuel, the White House chief of staff who sat a few rows in front of Mr. Wilson, said he immediately approached senior Republican lawmakers to encourage them to identify the heckler and urge him to issue an apology quickly. “No president has ever been treated like that. Ever,” Mr. Emanuel said. Other Democrats said they did not want to dwell on the outburst or allow it to overshadow what they saw as an effective address by the president. But they also said it bolstered their contention that some Republicans were not interested in constructive dialogue, and they noted that Democratic plans specifically barred coverage for illegal immigrants.

Republicans also said the heckling was out of line. “I think we ought to treat the president with respect,” said Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican leader, “and anything other than that is not appropriate.”

Mr. Wilson seemed rattled in the wake of his comment, and quickly left the chamber at the end of the speech. His office later issued an apology, saying: “This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the president’s remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill. While I disagree with the president’s statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the president for this lack of civility.” Mr. Wilson also phoned the White House and reached Mr. Emanuel, who accepted an apology on behalf of the president.

Critical body language and murmurs of disapproval are typical at presidential addresses and part of the political theater. But members of both parties were trying to recollect such a pointed attack from an individual lawmaker at a presidential address and noted that a similar remark could draw a formal reprimand if delivered at a routine session of the House.

The apology was appropriate and, I’m guessing*, sincere.  Such outbursts are inappropriate in civil debate, let alone when directed at the only elected representative of the nation as a whole.  Bill Clinton was treated with more respect while under formal impeachment charges.

While Wilson’s frustrated cry was inexcusable, however, it’s at least understandable.   After all, Obama was indirectly calling him a liar.  And being untruthful.  From the speech:

Some of people’s concerns have grown out of bogus claims spread by those whose only agenda is to kill reform at any cost. The best example is the claim, made not just by radio and cable talk show hosts, but prominent politicians, that we plan to set up panels of bureaucrats with the power to kill off senior citizens. Such a charge would be laughable if it weren’t so cynical and irresponsible. It is a lie, plain and simple.

There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false — the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. And one more misunderstanding I want to clear up — under our plan, no federal dollars will be used to fund abortions, and federal conscience laws will remain in place.  [emphasis added]

This, incidentally, was the from the prepared remarks, not off-the-cuff flourish.  The president was deliberately poisoning the well, claiming that his opponents are dishonorable and ill-intentioned.  And, as AllahPundit and Mark Tapscott point out, the bill will of course cover illegal aliens.   Even the Congressional Research Service says so.

“Under H.R. 3200, a ‘Health Insurance Exchange’ would begin operation in 2013 and would offer private plans alongside a public option…H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens—whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently—participating in the Exchange.” CRS also notes that the bill has no provision for requiring those seeking coverage or services to provided proof of citizenship.

Indeed, as an Obama official interviewed on NPR this morning admits, the administration has moved the ball in the other direction, removing existing restrictions requiring people to provide proof of citizenship to get various federal benefits on the grounds that they were too onerous and causing those legitimately eligible to give up or be denied.  That may well be the right thing to do (I don’t know the specifics well enough to render definitive judgment) but it nonetheless vitiates the claim that there’s some magic wall to prevent the twelve million-odd illegal aliens from gaining access.

Beyond that, simple logic tells you that illegal aliens will be covered under any system of universal coverage.  Aside from the plain meaning of the word universal,  we have laws in this country requiring unquestioned treatment at emergency rooms for anyone who shows up.  The Supreme Court ruled more than a quarter century ago in Pyler v. Doe that the Equal Protection Clause requires that children of known illegal aliens be given free elementary and secondary education in public schools.  It’s hard to justify a rationale that requires paying to educate children while denying them health care.

UPDATE: Phillip Klein points to a 2005 Media Matters piece noting that Congressmen expressing displeasure with presidents by booing has been going on for some time.  I suppose yelling, “You lie!” is worse than booing but it’s worth noting that the idea of Congress as a bastion of civility is being  oversold.

UPDATE 2: Via Taegan Goddard, I see that PolitiFact has a longish piece arguing that “Obama can make a pretty thorough case that reform doesn’t apply to those here illegally. We don’t find the public option argument enough to make the case that Obama ‘lied.’ We rate Wilson’s statement False.”  I invite you to read it for yourself but I find it unpersuasive.

Politifact misapprehends how our system works, operating from the premise that laws only do what they specifically say.  And since the law doesn’t say illegal aliens are covered, QED, they aren’t.  In reality, new entitlements operate in a very complex existing ecosystem.  Unless the law not only excludes illegal aliens but provides very strong provisions for actually doing so — and it does not — the reality is that illegal aliens will be covered.

______________
*Before this morning, the only “Joe Wilson” I knew was married to Valerie Plame.  I gather from the news accounts, though, that he was surprised and flustered by the outburst and embarrassed at the spectacle he’d created.

FILED UNDER: Health, Health Care, Law and the Courts, US Politics, , , , , , , , , , , , ,
James Joyner
About James Joyner
James Joyner is a Security Studies professor at Marine Corps University's Command and Staff College and a nonresident senior fellow at the Scowcroft Center for Strategy and Security at the Atlantic Council. He's a former Army officer and Desert Storm vet. Views expressed here are his own. Follow James on Twitter @DrJJoyner.

Comments

  1. rodney dill says:

    It was kind of pointless to call Obama a liar as everyone with at least half a brain already knew he was lying.

  2. G.A.Phillips says:

    Must have been a Truther……

  3. just me says:

    I think it is rather unprofessional to holler “Liar” in a joint session of congress even if the statement was truthful.

  4. steve says:

    SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED

    ALIENS.
    4
    Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments
    5
    for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are
    6
    not lawfully present in the United States.

    Steve

  5. rodney dill says:

    I think it is rather unprofessional to holler “Liar” in a joint session of congress even if the statement was truthful.

    Agreed. Republicans would expect civil treatment in similar circumstances. I can’t recall any similar incident, by a member of the Senate or Congress.

  6. Armando says:

    I could not care less about Wilson but James, you play a sly game when you pretend that Republicans would never protest if it were done to a Republican President.

    I say yell at the President. Whatever their party.

  7. Pug says:

    James:

    CRS also notes that the bill has no provision for requiring those seeking coverage or services to provided proof of citizenship.

    Steve:

    SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED

    ALIENS.
    4
    Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments
    5
    for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are
    6
    not lawfully present in the United States.

    So which is it? Both claims cite allegedly authoritative sources. If Sec. 246 is in the bill, as Steve claims, it’s game over.

  8. Andy says:

    The PolitiFact article mentions affordability credits as well. Illegal aliens are excluded from receiving them, so at least in a universe of perfect enforcement, they miss out on that aspect of health care reform.

    Whether illegal immigrants are “covered” by reform probably depends on how broadly you define the term. They’d be able to buy private coverage on the open exchanges much like they do today… if the exchanges reduce prices like they’re supposed to, then in effect the aliens have benefited from reform.

  9. Angela says:

    This has never happened before. Never. There are no excuses, it is not the President’s fault. One more reason why this independent will not vote Republican again until Republicans start taking responsibilities for their actions. I don’t let my kids blame shift, why would a vote for a party who makes it their unofficial MO?

  10. JKB says:

    Of course it was rude but Wilson was only following Obama’s directive to his followers to “get in their faces”. The outrage is really just more of the Dems protests for me, not for thee routine.

    While perhaps unintentional, this could be a good tactical move since, here of the morning after, the discussion is all about the dishonesty and doublespeak regarding illegal aliens and universal care. Not only is there no enforcement provisions but as James points out, it is likely that the courts would extend the coverage eventually just as they did education.

  11. inexcusable but understandable? Huh? James, I thought you were better than that.

  12. Triumph says:

    Joe Wilson shouted “You lie!” in response to the claim that illegal immigrants would not be covered under universal coverage

    I hated Joe Wilson for his lies about the Bush Administration allegedly “outing” his wife as a CIA agent. He seemed at that point that he was allying with anti-american terror forces.

    This, however, redeems him a bit in my book. Until Obama comes clean about his Nazi plan to have government bureaucrats send patriots to death camps and replace real Americans with immigrants like himself, he needs to be called out.

    Wilson may have lied about what he allegedly “found” in Niger, but he is right on target this time.

  13. J.W. Hamner says:

    If Sec. 246 is in the bill, as Steve claims, it’s game over.

    It is, and thus you’d think Mr. Joyner would apologize for lying inaccurately charaterizing the legislation… you’ve always needed proof of citizenship to get Medicaid and the like… but you’ll notice he cites emergency room treatment quite prominently.

    So for him and his ilk, the fact that the law doesn’t have any provision for needing to provide proof of citizenship before receiving treatment in an emergency room, is enough justification to say the bill will “insure illegal immigrants”.

    Of course, they’ll get treated in emergency rooms… as they always have… but they’re going to get a bill, so I don’t see how a non-hack could characterize that as “insurance”.

    It’s clearly nothing more than an out-an-out lie, and Obama was more than justified in calling it out.

  14. Mithras says:

    It’s been wonderful to watch the GOP dig themselves deeper and deeper into a hole. They appeal to their base by doing such things as giving cover to Truthers and teabaggers and coming to an address to a joint session of Congress to heckle the President, without caring that the majority of people in the country really despise such lunacy. It’s like Schiavo all over again. Keep it up, please.

    As for James’s substantive point, no federal dollars go to pay for illegal immigrants’ health insurance. Period. Subsidies and other assistance will go to citizens. The public option, on the other hand, will be totally premium-funded. What Jame is saying is that the government should check your papers before allowing you to buy something with your own money. I look forward to you all making that argument in other contexts, too.

  15. Matt Coleman says:

    The president was deliberately poisoning the well, claiming that his opponents are dishonorable and ill-intentioned.

    In three distinctly discrete and unambiguous examples, the President pointed out where opponents have it wrong. This is ‘poisoning the well’? How is refuting pointedly incorrect statements ‘poisoning’ anything?

    I remain unimpressed by opponents of healthcare reform. To bring forth alternatives, or to simply say, this shall not pass as it is to liberal, is to engage in a democratic process through debate. To put forth deliberate misinformation (“death panels” and “coverage for illegals”) in order to instill fear and doubt in the electorate is damaging to both party and country.

    I rarely agree with Senator McConnell, but I think he has this one correct.

  16. AnnaN says:

    Mr. Joyner believes that being “edgy” and taking the stance that what Rep. Wilson did was excusable will, obviously, drive traffic to his site. And he’s right. He’s not blogging because he’s making a valid contribution to society (HAH!) – it’s his job. Whatever raises hackles drives revenue.

    Shrug.

  17. Herb says:

    Some perspective:

    The government already gives government-provided taxpayer-funded healthcare to illegal immigrants …if they’re convicted of a crime.

  18. Matt Coleman says:

    I hated Joe Wilson for his lies about the Bush Administration allegedly “outing” his wife as a CIA agent. – Triumph

    Different Joe Wilson. The gentleman you refer to is of same name, but a different person from the Representative from second district of South Carolina described here.

  19. Triumph says:

    Whatever raises hackles drives revenue.

    Yeah, I’m sure this is the case. J-Dawg is gonna get loaded cause of this post.

    He does need the bread, though. He be so poor that he caint even afford to go to the free clinic.

  20. Herb says:

    Oh, and Joe Wilson, with his fairway tan and beltway bad manners, should consult a fella by the name of Muntadher al-Zaidi for the PROPER way to heckle a president. Shouting out “You lie!” is so weak, it’s like he’s not even trying.

  21. markm says:

    I hated Joe Wilson for his lies about the Bush Administration allegedly “outing” his wife as a CIA agent. – Triumph

    Different Joe Wilson.

    …he knows…

  22. Dude in Jersey says:

    Seriously, the title of your blog should be “Outside the solar system”. Come back to earth, James.

  23. Jacquelyn says:

    SEC. 242. AFFORDABLE CREDIT ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUAL.
    12 (a) DEFINITION.—
    13 (1) IN GENERAL.—For purposes of this divi14
    sion, the term ‘‘affordable credit eligible individual’’
    15 means, subject to subsection (b), an individual who
    16 is lawfully present in a State in the United States
    17 (other than as a nonimmigrant described in a sub18
    paragraph (excluding subparagraphs (K), (T), (U),
    19 and (V)) of section 101(a)(15) of the Immigration
    20 and Nationality Act)—

    So, let’s go to the 1990 Immigration and Nationality Act, shall we?

    (K) 3bb/ subject to subsections (d) and (p) of section 214, an alien who–
    (i) is the fiancee or fiance of a citizen of the United States 3bb/ (other than a citizen described in section 204(a)(1)(A)(viii)(I) ) and who seeks to enter the United States solely to conclude a valid marriage with the petitioner within ninety days after admission;
    (ii) has concluded a valid marriage with a citizen of the United States 3bb/ (other than a citizen described in section 204(a)(1)(A)(viii)(I) ) who is the petitioner, is the beneficiary of a petition to accord a status under section 201(b)(2)(A)(i) that was filed under section 204 by the petitioner, and seeks to enter the United States to await the approval of such petition and the availability to the alien of an immigrant visa; or
    (iii) is the minor child of an alien described in clause (i) or (ii) and is accompanying, or following to join, the alien
    (T) 4aa/ (i) subject to section 214(o), 4aa/ an alien who the 4ab2/ Secretary of Homeland Security, or in the case of subclause (III)(aa) the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Attorney General 4ab3/ determines–
    (I) is or has been a victim of a severe form of trafficking in persons, as defined in section 103 of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000; 4ab3/
    (II) is physically present in the United States, American Samoa, or the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, or at a port of entry thereto, on account of such trafficking, including physical presence on account of the alien having been allowed entry into the United States for participation in investigative or judicial processes associated with an act or a perpetrator of trafficking; 4ab3/
    (III)(aa) has complied with any reasonable request for assistance in the Federal, State, or local 4ab2/ investigation or prosecution of acts of trafficking 4ab2/ or the investigation of crime where acts of trafficking are at least one central reason for the commission of that crime; 4ab3/
    (bb) 4ab3/ in consultation with the Attorney General, as appropriate, is unable to cooperate with a request described in item (aa) due to physical or psychological trauma; or
    (cc) 4ab3/ has not attained 18 years of age 4aaa/ ; and 4ab3/
    (IV) the alien would suffer extreme hardship involving unusual and severe harm upon removal; 4ab2/
    (ii) 4aaa/ 4aa/ 4ab2/ if accompanying, or following to join, the alien described in clause (i)–
    (I) in the case of an alien described in clause (i) who is under 21 years of age, the spouse, children, unmarried siblings under 18 years of age on the date on which such alien applied for status under such clause, and parents of such alien; 4ab3/
    (II) in the case of an alien described in clause (i) who is 21 years of age or older, the spouse and children of such alien; and
    (III) any parent or unmarried sibling under 18 years of age of an alien described in subclause (I) or (II) who the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the law enforcement officer investigating a severe form of trafficking, determines faces a present danger of retaliation as a result of the alien’s escape from the severe form of trafficking or cooperation with law enforcement.
    (iii) Removed 4ab3/ 4ab2/
    (U) 4aa/ (i) subject to section 214(p), 4aa/ an alien who files a petition for status under this subparagraph, if the 4aa1/ Secretary of Homeland Security determines that–
    (I) the alien has suffered substantial physical or mental abuse as a result of having been a victim of criminal activity described in clause (iii);
    (II) the alien (or in the case of an alien child under the age of 16, the parent, guardian, or next friend of the alien) possesses information concerning criminal activity described in clause (iii);
    (III) the alien (or in the case of an alien child under the age of 16, the parent, guardian, or next friend of the alien) has been helpful, is being helpful, or is likely to be helpful to a Federal, State, or local law enforcement official, to a Federal, State, or local prosecutor, to a Federal or State judge, to the Service, or to other Federal, State, or local authorities investigating or prosecuting criminal activity described in clause (iii); and
    (IV) the criminal activity described in clause (iii) violated the laws of the United States or occurred in the United States (including in Indian country and military installations) or the territories and possessions of the United States;
    (ii) 4aa1/ if accompanying, or following to join, the alien described in clause (i)–
    (I) in the case of an alien described in clause (i) who is under 21 years of age, the spouse, children, unmarried siblings under 18 years of age on the date on which such alien applied for status under such clause, and parents of such alien; or
    (II) in the case of an alien described in clause (i) who is 21 years of age or older, the spouse and children of such alien; and
    (iii) the criminal activity referred to in this clause is that involving one or more of the following or any similar activity in violation of Federal, State, or local criminal law: rape; torture; trafficking; incest; domestic violence; sexual assault; abusive sexual contact; prostitution; sexual exploitation; female genital mutilation; being held hostage; peonage; involuntary servitude; slave trade; kidnapping; abduction; unlawful criminal restraint; false imprisonment; blackmail; extortion; manslaughter; murder; felonious assault; witness tampering; obstruction of justice; perjury; or attempt, conspiracy, or solicitation to commit any of the above mentioned crimes; or 4aa/
    (V) 4aa/ subject to section 214(q) , 4aa/ an alien who is the beneficiary (including a child of the principal alien, if eligible to receive a visa under section 203(d) of a petition to accord a status under section 203(a)(2)(A) that was filed with the Attorney General under section 204 on or before the date of the enactment of the Legal Immigration Family Equity Act, if–
    (i) such petition has been pending for 3 years or more; or
    (ii) such petition has been approved, 3 years or more have elapsed since such filing date, and–
    (I) an immigrant visa is not immediately available to the alien because of a waiting list of applicants for visas under section 203(a)(2)(A) ; or
    (II) the alien’s application for an immigrant visa, or the alien’s application for adjustment of status under section 245 , pursuant to the approval of such petition, remains pending.

  24. DL says:

    We’ve heard this story before… the first African-American Emperor stands arrogantly naked in the public square demanding that we approve of his wardrobe and someone has the audacity to point out that he is wearing no clothes.

    I’m with the courageous truth-teller -decorum be damned!

  25. Willem van Oranje says:

    So let me get this straight. In the current situation, the free and private health insurance market is allowed to sell their products to illegal aliens. The bill specifically states that illegal aliens are excluded from getting tax credits for buying insurance. Are you telling me you want to expand government control over the free market to demand it starts verifying citizenship? Why would only private insurers be subject to such a provision? When private insurers would be obliged to this, why shouldn’t every other business that sells its products on the free market be obliged to verify citizenship like supermarkets, liquorstores, gas stations, etc. etc. etc.?

  26. Egypt Steve says:

    There are two differences here. First: the “Death Panel” meme is a lie. The statement that the health care reforms being proposed will not extend free care to illegal aliens (beyond the emergency care they already often receive) is the truth.

    Second: Time and place, children. Your “courageous truth-teller” could have called Obama a liar in a speech or a town-hall. That would have been “discourse,” perhaps even, from a certain point of view, “speaking truth to power.” Shouting out at the President in the course of a speech that he is making is “interruption” and “heckling.” In other words, one is conventionally thought of as “acceptable,” and the other as “rude” and “unacceptable.” A “conservative,” who is concerned with maintaining traditional standards for such things, would understand this. But as we all know by now, there’s nothing “conservative” about the right-wing-extremist Republican Party in these sad days.

  27. PD Shaw says:

    As I understand the House Bill,

    1. Illegal immigrants would be required to obtain health insurance once they’ve been here for approx. 183 days.

    2. Illegal immgrants would be eligible to enroll in the public option or otherwise participate the health insurance exchange created by Congress.

    3. Illegal immigrants would not be eligible for credits used to help people afford the insurance mandate.

    Congressional Research Service Report

    What are the consequences of violating item 1?

  28. tworivers says:

    “The president was deliberately poisoning the well, claiming that his opponents are dishonorable and ill-intentioned.”

    Some of his opponents ARE dishonorable and ill-intentioned, stirring up irrational fears about “death panels” and the like, and suggesting that the government is going to force people who like their current health care plans to give them up in favor of a government program. It’s a “public option”, not a “public requirement”.

    If Joyner is unwilling to admit/acknowledge that there are many Republicans in congress who

    A) are determined to kill any meaningful health care reform

    and

    B) who are hoping for a failure that will be “his Waterloo”

    than I’m afraid I can’t take the rest of his argument seriously at all.

  29. Nazgul35 says:

    What John Cole said:

    Kind of an awesome set of rules the President gets to work with. If you point out that people have been lying about death panels for the last few months, you are “poisoning the well.” If you don’t point it out, people believe it and the rumors and lies keep spreading.

    Here on planet earth, the people who actually poisoned the well would be the ones who have spread all these BS rumors and lies. Not the guy standing over the well saying- “Hey. There is poison in there. Don’t drink it.”

  30. Beej says:

    This, incidentally, was the from the prepared remarks, not off-the-cuff flourish. The president was deliberately poisoning the well, claiming that his opponents are dishonorable and ill-intentioned.

    And if the President was simply telling the truth? Isn’t it remarkable that the loon-crazy right wing is allowed to call the President “Hitler”, a racist, a socialist, and every other epithet short of n______r, but when the President pushes back, with a truthful statement (the bill does prohibit coverage for illegal aliens. Enforcement details will have to be ironed out later. Congress doesn’t tell the IRS how to collect back taxes, those details are left to the administrative agency charged with enforcing the law.) he is “poisoning the well”? Wow. Some nice double standard you’ve got there!

  31. Mithras says:

    Also, the early stages of a flu epidemic is probably a wonderful time to ensure that illegal immigrants don’t have access to health care. What could go wrong?

  32. Native son says:

    It may be disrespectful for a person to heckle the President while he is addressing Congress. I think it was just a spontaneous reaction of a passionate man. I doubt he conspired to disrupt as the left will allege. On the other hand, Obama used prepared statements to discredit politicians, obliquely calling Palin a liar. I think that demonstrated a lack of class and to me it is almost cowardly to attack someone without naming them, especially when you have the office of the presidency to shroud you. Meanwhile Rahm Emanuel acted swiftly to find out who the heckler was and another Democrat insinuated Wilson would pay. We have a vengeful administration and I’m sure the White House’s list of enemies who disagree with Obama is growing. Actually, Emanuel should thank Wilson. The focus now will not be on an Van Jones calling Republicans a-holes but on Wilson calling the president a liar. Whose outbursts have more validity? I’m hanging with Wilson.The vicious cycle goes round and round. When will the final explosion happen? I don’t know but it is coming.

  33. Furhead says:

    From FactCheck.org:

    H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

    Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

  34. breschau says:

    Mr. Joyner:

    This is my first comment ever on your blog. I felt the need to make this point:

    Despite our differences in many, many issues, I had respect for you as a reasonable and honorable man. That is – up until this post. Your justification of Rep. Wilson’s outburst is reprehensible and should be beneath you, for many of the reasons stated above.

    This will be my last visit to your site. Good day.

  35. Willem van Oranje says:

    Hmmm. I thought a bit further about free markets being obliged to verify the legal status of their customers. There are basically two options for tackling that problem. The first option is, everybody will be forced to show their ID with every transaction they perform on the free market; the second option is, illegal aliens will be forced to wear some sort of an highly visible mark, like a yellow star, that will show their illegal status on first sight.

    Of course, a lot of transactions are done online nowadays so we need some additional solutions to tackle that problem. Any ideas?

  36. The Other Steve says:

    You are poisoning the well with your nonsensical lack of logic.

  37. Furhead says:

    Apologies, I see that was already covered in the comments.

    It may be debatable, but simply yelling “liar” isn’t typically the way an actual debate works. On the other hand, it has spurred us to debate whether it was a lie or not.

  38. Zelsdorf Ragshaft III says:

    End of life is what? Death. A group of government people are going to decide who gets treatment and who gets pain pills. This group could be called a panel. Hence death panel. If anyone capable of rational thinking does not recognize Obama’s lying, they are deluding themselves. If there is $900 billion in waste in the system let us fix that first. I do not believe it is possible to point out one government sponsored social program that was both successful and cost free. If Obama’s lips are moving he is lying.

  39. Tommy says:

    The media is offended by Mr. Wilson’s outcry against blatant lies proffered by their pet political celebrity thespian. Illegal aliens will get healthcare because there will not be any attempt (under penalty of retribution) to establish citizenship before handing out the goodies. This will kill current hearth care plans as the government will bring down the coercive pressure on business, individuals and the insurance companies themselves… Hell the lies just go on & on with Obama and the central government media puppets. The biggest point, and you know it, is the fact that this is just another giant step toward socialism and statism. Admit it, you love the idea of socialism and a giant Central government taking charge over individual citizen’s lives, decimating our Bill of Rights and reducing us to their defacto serfs. Obama can say the pretty words but the truth exposes his lies and half-truths because we, the people, are really listening now. To you this is a game but to us this is our lives and our nation and before we let this nation fall into the subjugation of your ilk there’s going to be Hell to pay. This isn’t a Democrat or Republican carnival anymore… we’ve got your number.

  40. forked tongue says:

    the first African-American Emperor stands arrogantly naked in the public square

    Dude–you clearly have some deeply tangled issues.

  41. Shade Tail says:

    Furhead, there is *no* debate about whether or not Obama was lying. He wasn’t. That is an objective fact. He said that insurance reform would not cover illegal immigrants, and that is absolutely true (as Steve pointed out above).

    So, not only was Rep. Wilson being unspeakably rude, he was also…wait for it…**lying**.

  42. PD Shaw says:

    Is there seriously disagreement here whether the House Bill would cover illegal aliens in some respects (though not others) as stated by the Congressional Research Service?

    Is the CRS liars?

  43. Pug says:

    End of life is what? Death. A group of government people are going to decide who gets treatment and who gets pain pills. This group could be called a panel. Hence death panel.

    Could you cite for us where it says in the bill that “government people are going to decide who gets treatment and who gets pain pills”?

    If you can’t, and I don’t think you can, you are just bringing more of the crazy for which Republicans are becoming renowned.

    It is impossible to debate someone who refuses to deal with the real facts and continues to just make up their own “facts”. So please, show us the section of the bill that states anything even remotely similar to your claim. Otherwise, you are just wasting everyone’s time.

  44. Tommy says:

    Oh yes… and as for the “Liar” outcry ” “turning point”… for the Democrats…Hahahaha…. that’s a fine joke. They were already so deep in bed with this sovereignty raping power grab, any deeper and they’d be working for s bigger tip on the bedroom dresser. His words were spoken for millions and it is more a rallying cry for us.

    Thanks Joe!

  45. LaurenceB says:

    As others have noted, this is not a particularly good post by Dr. Joyner. I guess I’m inclined to give the guy a break since he’s usually very, very good. Anyone can have a bad day.

  46. Willem van Oranje says:

    A group of government people are going to decide who gets treatment and who gets pain pills.

    Lie.

    The only one deciding who is going to get treatment or pain pills is the patient, that’s you.

    What the provision would do was making sure the doctor was paid for his time giving you advice on these issues. But Republicans apparently don’t think people should be paid for receiving professional advice and services. It should be free, like in a socialist system.

  47. gocart mozart says:

    I thought a bit further about free markets being obliged to verify the legal status of their customers. There are basically two options for tackling that problem. The first option is, everybody will be forced to show their ID with every transaction they perform on the free market; the second option is, illegal aliens will be forced to wear some sort of an highly visible mark, like a yellow star, that will show their illegal status on first sight.

    Also, he did indirectly call Palin a liar for her death panel comments, but then of course, Palin is a liar.

  48. markm says:

    Don’t know if you caught it but did you notice that the 47 million uninsured number…the number that’s been used since before the election, dropped to 30 million in the speech?.

    Makes a fella wonder if those 17 million were…illegals?.

  49. anjin-san says:

    however, it’s at least understandable.

    No, its not. You don’t interrupt the President when he is speaking. Period.

  50. reid says:

    Interesting that the author doesn’t choose to address the folks who have been poisoning the debate for the last few months. How can we have a reasonable discussion of health care reform when Rush, Palin, Fox, et al have been using loaded and incorrect terms like “death panels”, “socialism”, “fascism”? When their crazier listeners accuse Obama of being Hitler and bring guns to debates, and the networks feel obligated to cover them?

    The Right has been laying the groundwork for this for decades by demonizing liberals, socialism, and Europeans in general, to the point that their audience is absolutely ready to hate anything resembling them. In a health care debate, why do we not even consider how the rest of the western world (generally successfully) implements health care? It’s knee-jerk idiocy. But here we have someone going through contortions to defend one of his team members. What a country.

  51. Herb says:

    Wow. A link from Balloon Juice can really drive traffic! (And comments)

    But in all seriousness, this Obama-supporting liberal (and dedicated OTB reader) won’t be condemning Dr. Joyner for his “heretical” views. In this case, I disagree in substance…

    But I also think Dr. Joyner’s been getting some heat he doesn’t deserve. The guy is conservative, yes, but he’s intellectually honest, principled, and a damn good blogger. Regardless of where one fits on the political spectrum, these things should be appreciated.

  52. Steve says:

    markm,

    The 47 and 30 million are different statistics. The 47 million refers to the number of people who don’t have insurance, but some of them are young people who COULD get insurance but choose not to. The 30 million refer to those who want to buy insurance, but can’t afford it or are denied due to pre-existing conditions.

  53. Willem van Oranje says:

    Is there seriously disagreement here whether the House Bill would cover illegal aliens in some respects (though not others) as stated by the Congressional Research Service?

    Is the CRS liars?
    Posted by PD Shaw

    The issue with any bill that will reform the current situation is: “What will change, and what will stay the same.”

    Illegal immigrants CAN buy health insurance (without any government assistance) ALREADY. They will be able to do so in the future after a reform bill is signed with the explicit statement that illegal immigrants are NOT GOING TO GET ASSISTANCE WITH THAT.

    It’s still a free market. So nothing is going to change for them in that regard. And I guess the private healthinsurance cos want to keep it that way, I can’t imagine private companies voluntarily giving up extra business or adding an extra layer of bureaucracy. Do you?

    So the issue is that the CURRENT situation allows illegal immigrants to buy health insurance without any government assistance; and there isn’t any bill that is going to change that situation, much less going to introduce such a posibility. That’s a significant difference.

    Republicans are shouting that the “government is taking over healthcare”. However, with this issue, conservatives are calling for even bigger government intrusion into that market. So what is it that you want? How would such a provision (that is: preventing illegal immigrants from buying free market products) look like; how are you going to enforce such a provision; and what would be the intended AND unintended consequences of such a provision?

  54. UlyssesUnbound says:

    Willem and Pug:

    It’s generally best just to ignore Zelsdorf’s comments. They are never cited nor based in reality.

  55. reid says:

    Herb, I don’t check in here regularly, but I’ll take your and others word that the author is one of the more reasonable types. Given that, I think it’s all the more important to get on him when he writes something not up to par. We don’t want him to descend into Malkinesque lunacy.

  56. Cowcharge says:

    Isn’t the whole illegal immigrant question much simpler than this? Can someone tell me, if the government knows how to find illegals well enough to educate their children, WHY ARE THEY NOT KICKED THE HELL OUT?

  57. Mike says:

    As a previous comment has stated, we can call James Joyner a “hack” based on this post, and by the standard Joyner uses “it’s at least understandable”.

  58. get a brain says:

    lying republicans with no class and no respect for the office of the President?

    We all knew the Republicans were lying, classes, douche bags longs before this.

    And to excuse it is despicable and makes the author of this article a total douchebag.

    You people are unAmerican. It’s pathetic. Get a brain morans!

  59. Cowcharge says:

    TED KOPPEL (ABC host): When the president talked about the bankruptcy of Social Security, there were clearly some Democrats on the floor who thought that that was taking it too far. And they did something that, apparently, no one at this table has ever heard before. They booed. [ABC, Nightline, 2/2/05; Koppel’s panel consisted of former Bush adviser Mary Matalin, former Reagan chief of staff Ken Duberstein, and former Clinton speechwriter Michael Waldman]

    JOHN ROBERTS (CBS White House correspondent): At a couple points in this address, it looked more like the British Parliament than the United States Congress. I’ve never heard the minority party shout at the president during the State of the Union address. [CBS, post-speech coverage, 2/2/05]

    JOE SCARBOROUGH (former U.S. representative (R-FL) and MSNBC host): After the Democrats booed and hissed, Republicans were on the floor saying, you know, we never once did that to Clinton. So every time he would talk about Social Security, the roars got a little louder. And they got behind their president. [MSNBC, Hardball, 2/2/05]

    BOB BARR (former U.S. representative (R-GA) and CNN contributor): It will be a very, very difficult battle as we saw by the unprecedented and, I think, highly improper virtual booing of the president when he simply said that the system is going to be bankrupt and the time is now to fix it. [CNN, Inside Politics, 2/3/05]

    JOE WATKINS (radio host and CNN substitute host): Did you hear it? Certainly not the polite protocol usually practiced when a president speaks to Congress. If a Democrat one day delivers a State of the Union address, I hope the Republicans won’t lower themselves to such a disrespectful level. I hope last night’s behavior by a few lawmakers doesn’t set a new precedent, that both parties can agree to remain civil, even when voicing disagreements.

  60. GeneJockey says:

    “The president was deliberately poisoning the well, claiming that his opponents are dishonorable and ill-intentioned.”

    And?

  61. PD Shaw says:

    Illegal immigrants CAN buy health insurance (without any government assistance) ALREADY

    They can’t buy federal health insurance currently because it doesn’t exist. The Congressional Research Service states that illegals are not barred from purchasing the “public plan” through which the government intends to use coercive power to provide health care at costs that the private market can’t match.

    If one believes that the public option is just another insurance policy, no different that those offered currently on the private market, then I can see the point that ability to purchase the public plan is not a government benefit worth debating.

    If you believe the public option is a game-changer, or will provide benefits for those currently ill-served in the private market, then H.R. 3200 provides significant benefits for illegal aliens.

    Also, why did Democrats reject the Deal Amendment which would have required verification in H.R. 3200? I am aware of two reasons that were given: (1) the cost of verification exceeds the money saved from excluding illegals, and (2) healthcare is a moral right and it would be immoral to prevent illegal aliens from access.

  62. Sirkowski says:

    So the Republicans make up lies about death panels and Obama shouldn’t call them liars?

  63. MarkedMan says:

    markm,

    The 47 and 30 million are different statistics. The 47 million refers to the number of people who don’t have insurance, but some of them are young people who COULD get insurance but choose not to. The 30 million refer to those who want to buy insurance, but can’t afford it or are denied due to pre-existing conditions.

    The original poster, markm, saw this as some nefarious tactic. Didn’t really seem to be looking for an answer, just wanted to sow dissent. On the other hand, I was grateful for him pointing it out, and even more grateful to steve for his explanation.

    A guy named Harry Frankfurt wrote a classic essay, “On Bullsh_t”, in which he posited that the difference between a bullsh_tter and a simple liar was that the bullsh_tter is completely indifferent to the truth. If there is a convenient fact, they will throw it in the mix, twisting it and turning it to be most pleasing, but if their hand happened to first grasp a lie, they’ll use that. Like a crow, their choice is based on how shiny the object is, not its actual worth. There are plenty of Bullsh_tters around, of all political persuasions, and always are. But when they comprise most of the leadership of a political party, as they do now, we are in dangerous waters.

    And just to be clear, the above was triggered by Joe Wilson and markm, not by James Joyner. I think Joyner was dead wrong on this one, but in general I find him to be one of the most intellectually honest and rigorous people on the web, even if I disagree with many of his views.

  64. PD Shaw says:

    In addition to the Deal Amendment that was rejected by most Democrats (though a few Blue Dogs voted for it), the Heller Amendment to H.R. 3200 would have addressed this issue as well:

    Rep. Dean Heller (R-NV) introduced an amendment that would use two citizenship status verification systems, the Income and Eligibility Verification System (IEVS) and Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) programs, to establish an individual’s eligibility to obtain the bill’s proposed affordability credits or enroll in the public insurance option. Both programs are currently used to determine citizenship status and eligibility for public assistance programs. Safeguards to guarantee that only citizens can access federal health care benefits are necessary, considering that the US Census Bureau currently estimates that 9.6 million of the uninsured are not US citizens. The first Heller amendment failed on a straight party-line vote.

    Heritage Foundation

  65. Warpublican says:

    “Until Obama comes clean about his Nazi plan to have government bureaucrats send patriots to death camps and replace real Americans with immigrants like himself, he needs to be called out.”

    Today’s right wing – total morons…

  66. Mar says:

    Read section 246, there’s already a provision preventing illegal immigrants from receiving any subsidy benefits under the proposed plan.

    What you’re really claiming is that the proposed healthcare plan must insure illegal aliens because we can always add more sections and provisions to prevent illegal immigrants from finding a way around Section 246.

    By that same argument, Medicare and Medicaid also insure illegal immigrants because we could always add MORE forms for people to fill out in order to verify their citizenship.

  67. Sharon says:

    It makes me sick to listen to all the disrespect that is given to the “President of the United States” from ignorant people within this Country. I don’t think people in general have any respect for anyone anymore.
    Whether you agree or disagree, you still need to be RESPECTFUL!

  68. markm says:

    The 47 and 30 million are different statistics. The 47 million refers to the number of people who don’t have insurance, but some of them are young people who COULD get insurance but choose not to. The 30 million refer to those who want to buy insurance, but can’t afford it or are denied due to pre-existing conditions.

    So the President all of a sudden gave up on those 17 million that can afford it but choose not to?. The balance of the 30 million…ALL of them don’t qualify for Medicade or S-CHIP for the children?.

  69. tee-hee says:

    James Joyner if weren’t too lazy to bother to point out the untruthfulness of the ‘death panel’ claims and the lie about providing health care coverage to illegal aliens — hell you fool the refutation is right there in the bill — you’d never come up with this nonsense of your own:

    “While Wilson’s frustrated cry was inexcusable, however, it’s at least understandable.”

    I had no idea you were so intellectually flabby.

  70. JB says:

    Yes, libs, you are absolutely right. The law clearly states that illegal immigrants cannot receive federal health coverage. Therefore, we know that Obama speaks the truth, because we know that enforcement is not necessary. I mean, the law also clearly states that entering the U.S. without proper authorization is not permitted. So, clearly, that means no one is in this country illegally. So we should immediately disband all immigration enforcement agencies. Then, we can disband all police forces because the law says that people cannot steal, rape, murder or commit arson, among other offenses. Therefore, such offenses will not happen. Think of how much money we would save! Why didn’t anyone think of this before? Genius, I say! Sheer genius.

  71. Rick says:

    I think YOU are off-base regarding Joe Wilson. It is too bad that we do not use the British Parliamentary approach because then we “can out a lie” when it rears its ugly head. Why is DECORUM more important than the TRUTH??? Please do tell me. Civility triumphs over Truth. TRUTH should always be first among all things, whether it is in a public or private venue!!!!

    Thank you Joe!!!

  72. Mithras says:

    If you believe the public option is a game-changer, or will provide benefits for those currently ill-served in the private market, then H.R. 3200 provides significant benefits for illegal aliens.

    One that they will pay for, since subsidies are not available to them.
    (Assuming there is no other roadblock that will prevent them from buying it, which no one here seems to have the least clue about.) Do you have a problem with noncitizens purchasing American products in any other context? If a citizen of Canada wants to buy a Ford made in the U.S. and drive it in Canada, that’s fine, but if they buy the same car and want to drive it here, that’s a problem?

    Oh, also? Having millions of people running around without vaccinations or screening and treatment for other communicable diseases is a public health threat to citizens. As the free market lures undocumented immigrants into the country, why don’t we do the sane thing and allow them to purchase something – with their own money! – that will make everyone safer?

  73. markm says:

    markm,

    The 47 and 30 million are different statistics. The 47 million refers to the number of people who don’t have insurance, but some of them are young people who COULD get insurance but choose not to. The 30 million refer to those who want to buy insurance, but can’t afford it or are denied due to pre-existing conditions.

    The original poster, markm, saw this as some nefarious tactic.

    I did?…thanks for the insight. Honestly, i’m a bit more curious why the numbers have gone from 46/47 million uninsured to 30 million uninsured. Throw in a dash of “by the end of my first term, that we’re going to have universal health care for every single American in the United States” (which I might add is slightly more than 17 or 30 million) and all the while staying deficit neutral.

    C’mon…after hundreds of speeches using the 46/47 million figure, in supposedly one of his biggest speeches to date, he just drops 17 million and you don’t question it?.

  74. fahnaka says:

    It wasn’t too surprising, we have “superior” men taking orders from a” minority.”too much testerone in one room. if you don’t like what you’re hearing and want it to change. save up your pennies and maybe you can run in 2012. the president is trying to fix 8 years of stupidity!!! how does anyone expect anything to change in one year?? is going to take us longer than one year. we are all confused with whats going to happen next, but being critical isn’t going to make it happen faster. not waiting and thinking with a brain, is what got this country in the crapper in the first place. we’re all grown adults, majority of you in that room are the age of our fathers, and grandfathers. the young people that voted for president Obama, has more maturity.

  75. Matt J says:

    The holier-than-thou Democrats and their mouthpieces in the lib media shouldn’t cast stones at Joe Wilson.

    During President George W. Bush’s State of the Union address in 2005, Dems booed.
    And for those of you with the selective memory, here is the youtube link to refresh your memories.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBxmEGG71PM

  76. Matt J says:

    People need to stop playing word games. All coverage is about how disrespectful, out of line, appauling, blah blah blah. Why wont anyone answer the 2 simple words that were said. “YOU LIE” I will tell you why. Because here it is::: “Tuesday, the Congressional Research Service (CRS), the “research arm” for the United States Congress, issued a report validating an analysis by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), that illegal aliens would be able to receive benefits under the House health care reform bill, America’s Affordable Health Care Act of 2009 (H.R. 3200).“ HAHAHAHA Peace and Chicken Grease

  77. DL says:

    I’ve gone past the stage of trying to decipher truth with this guy. When I see a amall furry black and white striped animal, I won’t waste my time expecting to get the scent of flowers. Nor did I ever believe that Bambi was real.

  78. sam says:

    @PD

    Also, why did Democrats reject the Deal Amendment which would have required verification in H.R. 3200?

    Congressman Deal’s webpage states:

    Congressman Deal Offers Amendment to Prohibit Illegal Immigrants from Receiving Taxpayer Funded Healthcare

    During the Energy and Commerce Committee mark-up of the Democrat healthcare reform proposal, Rep. Deal offered an amendment to ensure that illegal immigrants are not allowed to get US taxpayer-funded Medicaid benefits. The amendment offered by Rep. Deal would maintain the requirement in current law that all State Medicaid programs verify the citizenship status and identity of all applicants for Medicaid coverage. Rep. Deal was the author of this citizenship-verification requirement when it was originally enacted in 2006 [my emphasis], and this amendment would have prevented the Democrats’ health reform bill from undermining this requirement. Unfortunately, the amendment was defeated on a largely party-line vote of 28 Yeas and 29 Nays.

    Check me on this, but does that not say that, owing to the labors of Congressman Deal, such restrictions are already in place? (Is there any provision in HR 3200 that overturns the Deal legislation?)

    And if that’s correct, then I guess one can come down on the issue in one of two ways: 1) Why didn’t the Dems vote for it — redundant as that might be, or 2) Why did Deal want to reinvent a wheel he’d already invented?

  79. hypusine says:

    Wilson is entitled to say whatever he likes, within reason. The president is not a king. He looked like an ass doing it, though: southern Congressman heckling, for the first time in recent history, a president who is black. Bad optics.

    The argument that he was asking for it by “poisoning the well” is, I’m sorry, idiotic. If I argue with someone who spouts lies to win an argument, I do the entire dialog a disservice by failing to point that out. Dishonesty is effective only until it is called out.

    As to whether the opponents of health care have actually been lying, well. “Death panels” exist in private industry now but are not being proposed as part of government reform. End-of-life counseling (voluntary, natch) is in a different universe from “killing grandma” – and the measure was originally proposed by a Republican. And since when is providing a government option like fascism? Are Sweden, England, France and Canada…fascist? Countering these lies in order to fix a woefully dysfunctional system is like trying to debate a 5 year old about tax code structures on the merits.

    The President helped us all think about reform more clearly by sweeping away deliberate obfuscation as “lies.” Because they are.

  80. John S. says:

    During President George W. Bush’s State of the Union address in 2005, Dems booed.

    Wow, so booing (which the Republicans also did last night) and shouting “you lie” at the President are the same thing?

    No wonder conservatives have such a hard time with the truth if they have to go to such lengths to create false equivalences.

  81. No One Important says:

    Just because Obama declares “mission accomplished” on the economic crisis, doesn’t mean it’s over.

    Just because Obama declares the debate on global warming over (“there’s no debate”) doesn’t mean it is.

    Just because Obama declares that HC is in a crisis, doesn’t mean it is.

    The nation is SICK of Washington lying, and handing down edicts while exempting themselves from their own laws.

    So what if someone booed Obama. He deserved it. MORE of the nation agrees with Joe “You Lie!” than with the self important over aggrandizing self centered idiots in Washington, including Obama.

    Read a poll lately? 57% of the nation thinks congress is TOO LIBERAL.

    The entire group of DEMOCRATS booed Bush. Does that make ALL of those losers worthy?

    Of course not. NO ONE thinks those guys are worthy. And they think a joint session is “revered as important” now?

    They don’t deserve respect. Neither does Obama. They deserve NOTHING but our SCORN. THAT’S what they deserve.

    They have their own PLANES, their own limousine drivers with chauffeurs, they got their AUTOMATIC 4,900 raises, and gave away 4,500 of YOUR money to OTHER people to buy a car.

    On YOUR DIME, your TAX DOLLAR.

    What did YOU get?

    You’re going to get your taxes raised, is what you’re going to get.

    Because an immature POTUS can’t understand “It’s the economy, stupid.” No one cares about Health care, they care about JOBS. We care about the ECONOMY. But dumbo Obama and his “mission accomplished” about the economy? Really? Has he read a NEWSPAPER lately?

    We’re losing homes, jobs, can’t feed the kids, and these idiots talk about HEALTH CARE?

    Nothing changed last nite with Obama’s ignorant speech.

    The only thing he proved was that neither he nor the democrats intend on listening to the nation. They’ve become elitist out of touch ignorant ruling individuals with nothing but disdain for the voters.

    Looks like it’s up to the voters to hammer even HARDER on the doors of our representatives and make SURE they listen.

    As the article said, or it is up to the voters, in 2010, to wipe the smile off their elitist repugnant faces.

  82. steve says:

    I guess not many people posting actually work in medicine. My experience, and maybe the illegals in my area are different, is that illegals avoid the system as much as possible. We see them come out for deliveries and trauma cases. Not much more. Signing up for insurance would expose them to being identified and deported.

    Having to ID each and every applicant would impose real costs that do not seem likely to be recouped IMHO. I understand that some people would be willing to spend $100 million to prevent $10 million worth of care to illegals. I do not. If I am wrong, and this does turn out to be a problem, it is easily corrected AND we get to deport lots of illegals.

    reid-Dr. Joyner is sometimes wrong, but as far as I can tell, he is ethical and thoughtful. He runs a good site. His commenters are good and bad like everywhere.

    Steve

  83. raaa a says:

    Yes, it is hillarious that Rep. Joe Wilson (R-S.C.) shouted “You lie!”

    After the insurance companies have spent over $1.3 million a day and employed 50,000 employees to blog, attend tea parties, and post comments on YouTube — full time.

    Realize, that for insurance, lying is BAD FAITH and opens them up to litigation from individuals or classes who were denied covered in any form by their direct lies, or lies propagated through any of their 50,000 army of liars.

    So, for the bought and paid for Mr. Wilson — this is the undoing of the Republican propaganda machine. Realize this is among the strongest propaganda machines in place since Joseph Goebbels.

    We are NOT living in “1984” republicans; take your prize bitch Sarah Palin and crawl back under your rock until we stamp you out of existence with ongoing litigation against your $1,400,000,000,000 big brother — health insurance. It’s too late to turn back. We’ve got you bastards. See you in court.

  84. reid says:

    Steve: I’m glad to hear that Dr. Joyner is ethical and thoughtful. Such people need to be promoted and thanked, even if we don’t all agree. I will probably bookmark this site and hope this post was a fluke.

    A lot on the right seems to enjoy saying whatever it takes to boost their position and tear down the opponent. People like “No One Important”, who seems to think that Obama declared the economic crisis over or that there’s disagreement on global warming. Or that health care has nothing to do with the economy. WTF? Please tell me he’s one of your regular trolls.

  85. hallo says:

    Can we at least put the sickest of illegal immigrants on one of those obstacle course game shows? If they make it through, they get medical attention, if not, we get to see them suffer. How cool is that!

  86. Rick Almeida says:

    People like “No One Important”, who seems to think that Obama declared the economic crisis over or that there’s disagreement on global warming. Or that health care has nothing to do with the economy. WTF? Please tell me he’s one of your regular trolls.

    He’s actually an entirely new troll.

  87. curious says:

    For eight years we listened to the Democrats and their leftist allies interrupt Republicans every time they tried to speak. Code Pink anyone? Now that people are starting to speak out against the lies of the leftists, they don’t like it. Typical behavior of cowards and bullies. They can dish it out but they cannot take it.

  88. OK, if “illegals” are not going to be covered:

    – Will democrats agree not to introduce or proposse an amnesty bill that will make “illegals” citizens, thefore just by legal redefinition add millions to the healthcare roles?

    – If democrats insist on introducing amnesty, as both Obama and the democrats are are record of doing as recently as last month, can we add that dicussion to the healthcare debate now?

    – If some sort of healthcare is passed, can everyone agree that the cost burden and results of healthcare is a legitimate point to not passing an amnesty law?

  89. curious says:

    Response to Steve “I guess not many people posting actually work in medicine…”

    I don’t work in medicine but I see a way that hospital costs could be cut. The hospital in my city treats a lot of people who use the ER as a walk in clinic because they have no other options. Illegal or not is not the point, we don’t have many illegals in my city.

    What we need are low cost walk in clinics which do not have to carry the enormous costs of government regulation and medical malpractice.

    I fortunately can use the university clinic. They only take cash, you have to sign an agreement that you won’t sue them, and all their prices are posted on the wall. You pay as you leave. They don’t do serious ER things, they do basic medicine. The prices they charge are 1/5 to 1/10 what a hospital has to charge.

    This is the only walk in clinic in my city.

    The hospital could save a tremendous amount if there was a walk in clinic like this in every community.

    Whether illegals used a walk in clinic like this or not would not matter.

    I think the debate is on the wrong issue. Our health care costs too much. That is the problem. If we focus on reducing that cost substantially all these other issues become irrelevant or at least easier to deal with.

  90. Our Paul says:

    I, for one, feel Dr. Joyner’s pain.

    As viewers could easily see, and as outlined by Dana Millbank, the boorish behavior by the (cough, cough) opposition party was not limited to Mr. Wilson’s cri du coer. There were snicker’s, inappropriate laughter, hand held signs, waving of pamphlets, and boos at key parts of the speech.

    What to do, for surely we all remember that a few blog posts back Dr. Joiner confessed that Dave Schuler had convinced him there is a legitimate crisis in our healthcare delivery system”. A blogger of Dr. Joiner’s stature surely cannot ignore a Presidential address on Health Care delivered to a joint session of Congress.

    The obvious solution would be to go the Republican counter address by Representative Charles Boustany. But that was thin ice to skate on. Not only did this good man co-sponsor the segment of the bill that lead to Sarah’s bele canto of death panels, but (gasp), he had this to say:

    We can do better, with a targeted approach that tackles the biggest problems. Here are four important areas where we can agree, right now:

    One, all individuals should have access to coverage, regardless of preexisting conditions.

    Two, individuals, small businesses and other groups should be able to join together to get health insurance at lower prices, the same way large businesses and labor unions do.

    Three, we can provide assistance to those who still cannot access a doctor.

    And, four, insurers should be able to offer incentives for wellness care and prevention — something particularly important to me. I operated on too many people who could have avoided surgery if they’d simply made healthier choices earlier in life.

    Imagine that, agreement in principle with the President!!! But, that was but a little oil over troubled waters, a distraction, the ye old shell game. Few, if any of the conservative heavy hitters in blogosphere even mentioned Dr. Boustany speech!!! Must be that foreign sounding name…

    Hang in there James, I feel your pain, I recognize your dilemma. Decisions and actions can be set aside. There is always Barak Obama that can be identified as leading the country to perdition.

    Pssst: for those afflicted with You Tubueitist I would recommend focusing on the occasional shots John Boehner during the Presidential address. Now there was a man truly distressed, every fiber crying out at the indignity of having to sit and listen to the Interloper President. Worth the price of admission!!!

  91. curious says:

    Paul,
    Did you have the same condemnation for rude behavior when the Democrats and their leftist allies disrupted pretty much every appearance by Republicans for the last 8 years? I’m guessing not.

    But, that hypocrisy by the Democrats aside – “we can disrupt you, we can call you liar and NAZI and compare you to Hitler, but oooo noooo you can’t be anything but polite to us….” – the Democrats just don’t get why we are upset with this so called healthcare reform act.

    First, it does NOTHING to address the tremendous structural costs. These are:
    1. Infinite legal liability in the form of medical malpractice insurance premiums and CYA healthcare procedures performed not becasue they are necessary for the patient but because the Doctor feels they are necessary to avoid a fraudulent lawsuit.

    2. Burdensome government regulation. This is a big one.

    3. Administrative costs. Our myriad healthcare systems make it necessary for health care providers to have billing departments and specialists in processing and billing claims. These specialists are expensive. We basically have 5 different health care systems in this country. 1. Patient paid (if you have cash you can get health care). 2. Government paid (medicare, medicaid). 3. Government provided (VA, etc). 4. Third party paid (and there are a myriad of different types). And, 5. private industry provided. Imagine being a health care provider and you have to sort through this mess everytime you treat someone. You won’t even know ahead of time how much you can charge. You won’t know that until you know how payment is going to be made.

    4. Shortage of low cost walk in clinics. Hospitals carry a tremendous cost burden because many people have no choice but to use the Emergency Room as a walk in clinic.

    5. Shortage of health care practitioners.

    6. High cost of education for a health care practitioner. Doctors graduate from medical school owing hundreds of thousands of $$ in student loans. They expect a return on that investment.

    The bill that Congress wrote and the bill that Obama described (and these are two very different things) do NOTHING to address any of this. Each of these issues could be taken on in a separate bill and would probably get wide support. Then after all these structural cost issues are addressed come back to us and talk about providing care to 100% of the US population.

  92. steve says:

    curious- A good idea in principle. How do you fund it? You would need exemptions from malpractice (Ok with me). Which regulations are you doing away with? How do you maintain quality of care?

    Steve

  93. billp says:

    The revelations today that GOP Representative Joe Wilson is having financial difficulties cast a whole new light on last night, providing at least part of the reason why he was tapped by the GOP leadership to heckle the President. This will spike his fundraising through the roof. Of course it will do so for his opponent as well, but clearly this is a gamble Wilson was willing to take and it’s a brilliant move. Rush Limbaugh is already coming to his defense; imagine how much money that will translate into for Joe.

    Given South Carolina’s conservative bent, he has a nearly insurmountable advantage over any Democratic opponent. His outburst will galvanize his supporters and fill his coffers, while pulling many Democratic dollars into a race which they are preordained to lose. It’s an inspired move worthy of Machiavelli, and Joe Wilson is already laughing all the way to the bank.

    P.S. GOP Rep. Michelle Bachmann is probably fuming over how she wasn’t picked to deliver this “spontaneous outburst” instead of Wilson. The GOP has a new star, and Bachmann and Sarah Palin have a new competitor on the national stage.

  94. Mike says:

    It does’nt matter who it is .If he is lieing then call him a liar. The truth will set you free. The crime was’nt the president being called a liar. The crime was the president of the united states (whom is in charge of our country and money) standing up there in the face of a camera and lieing to the nation. That was the crime. Dam.You gotta look at the whole picture. I applaud a politician for being a man and standing up to him. I only wish he could have been from Georgia.

  95. PD Shaw says:

    sam:

    Check me on this, but does that not say that, owing to the labors of Congressman Deal, such restrictions are already in place?

    As I understand it, Deal is very concerned about illegal aliens receiving Medicaid benefits without verification of status (or his legacy for this requirement). There is a line in the Congressional Research Service report that suggested to him that the House bill’s expansion of Medicaid/CHIPP benefits to 133 1/3% of poverty level could potentially expand Medicaid coverage to illegal aliens:

    In addition, this change could also mean that more noncitizens who meet the categorical and income eligibility standards for Medicaid but are barred due to their immigration status (e.g., nonimmigrants, unauthorized aliens) would be eligible for emergency Medicaid (discussed below).

    The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) requires Medicare-participating hospitals to provide emergency medical services for all patients who seek care, regardless of their ability to pay or immigration status. (42 U.S.C 1395dd) While some argue that unauthorized aliens should not receive any type of taxpayer funded medical care, others contend that increasing the number of unauthorized aliens eligible for emergency Medicaid could decrease the amount of hospitals’ uncompensated care.

    Deal presented an amendment to the House bill to reaffirm that nothing in the health care bill would change existing verification requirements. It’s a very short bill. Link Is it necessary? I don’t know. Frankly, I think emergency care is different than other welfare benefits, but the Democrats are creating evidence when they reject these types of amendments.

  96. hippieswereright says:
  97. hippieswereright says:

    [IMG]http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/ad299/hippieswereright/sarahc.png[/IMG]

  98. hippieswereright says:

     
     
    A GOP leader

     

  99. Freedom Fan says:

    “Democrats said it showed lack of respect for the office of the presidency and was reminiscent of …” the way they treated President Bush.

    FIFY.

    Joe Wilson is right: Barack Obama is a serial liar.

    How long can someone just sit there and smile while Obama lies through his teeth?

    If the intent of the bill was to exclude illegal aliens, then the Dims would not have repeatedly sunk every amendment requiring proof of citizenship.

    Simple.

  100. Hey, at least he didn’t bite off anyone’s finger.

  101. hippieswereright says:

     
     
    GOP

     

  102. Frankiln Roberts says:

    As a Canadian with relatives on the south side of the border nearing bankruptcy due to a case of cancer in their family, I am shocked by the number of Americans who are so afraid of this healthcare reform issue. If you had to walk a mile in my Washington relatives shoes, I am sure you would have a decidedly different point of view. Is decent universal healthcare not a right of citizens in any civilized society? Barack is absolutely on the right track…even McCain agrees! Good luck Mr. President!

  103. RAS says:

    If it actually is in this ugly health reform that illegals don’t get any it will be treated the same as the law not permitting them in the country in the first place. It will be ignored, they will get around it and they will get it while we pay for it.

    As far as calling Obama a liar, Wilson should not be punished for telling the truth, which is extremely rare for any politician. Possibly give the man a freedom medal?

  104. RAS says:

    Hmmm…the first Canadian I’ve ever heard defend their health care mess. If it is so great maybe thos US relatives can run up to Canada and be saved. There is only so much ANY health insurance or health care plan can do for any of us! We are all going to eventually die no matter what. If you want to call that a “death panel” so be it, but leave the damned government out of it all. They’ve screwed up Medicare already.

  105. RAS says:

    AND health care is NOT a RIGHT! Nor is it a right for government to take more and more money out of my pocket and freely give it away to others. I’m sooo sure that these people that want everyone to have everything never ever complain about the ever-growing percentage of their paychecks that the various governments take. Obama is taking us on the downhill slide to socialism and the destruction of the US.

  106. forked tongue says:

    Did you have the same condemnation for rude behavior when the Democrats and their leftist allies disrupted pretty much every appearance by Republicans for the last 8 years?

    You live in a bizarre, hallucinatory fugue state utterly unconstrained by reality. In your derangement, you somehow take empirical data and twist, mutilate and maim it into a feverishly scrambled set of paranoid delusions. Nothing you say can be taken seriously, now or at any time, because you have permanently cut yourself off from the community of the sane and lucid.

  107. thomas jefferson says:

    I guess no one can call bullshit anymore without everyone crying about it. Our elected officials are not royalty -if they were they would be in Parliment where the wigs over there throw down agaist each other all the time. How loud do we need to scream before this regime will hear us say “We do not want goverment healthcare”. No one listens to the ants anymore even though were the ones responsible for building this anthill we call a country

  108. reid says:

    TJ: It’d be nice if you charming teabag chaps realized that it doesn’t actually matter how loud you scream, you represent a minority opinion. Most of us are more interested in practical results and providing health care to people than in supporting an ideological fantasy.

  109. concerned says:

    The Democrat plan is to prevent citizenship verification when implementing the public option, so in reality (notice that I wrote ‘in reality’, not in some legislative language or Democrat politician’s weasel words), Joe Wilson is right and 0bama and all his sycophantic MSM media supporters such as the AP are wrong.

    This is one of many reasons (such as the fact that it plans to reduce medicare funding, financial penalties to individuals and corporations and impose bureaucratic rationing aka ‘death panels’) to oppose the costly as well as coercively and dishonestly presented 0bama/Democrat healthcare plan.

  110. concerned citizen says:

    Mr. Wilson was definitely out of line. If other countries sees that his own people does not respect him, why should they? It was bad form…However, this should not be used to bulldoze the proposal through. Or vote for it, because of what one man has said or done. It should be reviewed as objectively as possible, regardless of who proposed it, or who is opposed to it,so as not to put forth a law that will undermine the people’s interest or needs.

  111. concerned says:

    Actually, Reid, it’s 0bama medical plan supporters who are in the minority.

    For instance, with 0bama death panels in power, my mother would have died five years before she eventually did of multiple myeloma, and people are aware that there would be tens of millions of similar cases of suffering and medical neglect/malpractice that 0bamacare would inflict on the US population.

    Leftists such as yourself were never good at admitting reality when it differed with your outmoded ideological prejudices, but we all have to deal with reality, so how about stopping trying to mess it up for the majority of us who aren’t entitled by handouts and preferences, government or otherwise, ok?

  112. reid says:

    use of 0bama + death panels = troll or moron EOF

  113. forked tongue says:

    You know, actually, instituting “death panels” is something that most politicians would probably see as detrimental to their chances for re-election and to their legacy. So most of us with a grip tend to believe the President is not hell-bent on doing it. We’re a little nutty that way.

  114. steve says:

    “The Democrat plan is to prevent citizenship verification when implementing the public option,”

    Based upon what I see at my hospital, I see little need for such verification. Illegals dont come in for routine care and high cost procedures. We see them for OB and trauma. What is it like where you live? My experience is that illegals try to avoid getting caught. Signing up for this kind of insurance makes them easier to find. From my POV this looks like costly regulation and paperwork with little return. It makes much more sense to let individual locales handle this as needed should it be a problem.

    “For instance, with 0bama death panels in power, my mother would have died five years before she eventually did of multiple myeloma”

    Was she on Medicare? That is government insurance. In my years of experience with medical billing, Medicare has been the insurance least likely to deny a claim. This is good for doctors but not so good for the system. Medicare does have costs that are getting out of control. Everyone knows this has to be addressed. If you look at the actual numbers, much of the savings will come from doing away with the Medicare through private insurance company plans. This has been a waste of money. The rest is stuff we need to do anyway. However, if Republicans are in favor of increasing Medicare spending ad infinitum, they are free to support that position.

    Steve

  115. curious says:

    Steve said:

    curious- A good idea in principle. How do you fund it? You would need exemptions from malpractice (Ok with me). Which regulations are you doing away with? How do you maintain quality of care?

    I’ll address these one at at time:

    How do you fund it?

    Patients pay cash for services when they are treated. The building space is donated by the government to keep costs low. The clinic is tax exempt.

    You would need exemptions from malpractice (Ok with me).

    Yes. Patients would sign an agreement that they will not sue. Complaints will be handled by arbitration. Since the clinic does not do complex invasive procedures this should be fine for most people. The clinic I go to has this policy. I don’t know of any patients that have taken them to arbitration.

    Which regulations are you doing away with?

    Throw them all out and then create a set of operations procedures tailored for a walk in clinic that does not do complex invasive procedures.

    How do you maintain quality of care?

    The same way that they maintained quality of care at the field hospital (staffed by volunteer Kurdish doctors) that took the bullet out of my shoulder in Kurdistan. Good operational procedures tailored to the environment and the kind of cases that they handle.

    I don’t buy the argument that medical professionals will allow their facility to degrade into a sloppy, dirty, unsafe environment unless Big Brother is micro managing them. I have seen how medical professionals act in some unbelievable environments in the third world. They do so much with so little in some hellish places.

  116. Mithras says:

    Thank you, Steve. Someone with some real-world experience.

    Uninsured people, immigrants and Americans, often use the ER as their primary care facility. If they can’t pay, the hospital loses because it provided uncompensated care. If the public option goes through, then some of those people will be able to afford insurance, which will get them better care, get the hospitals paid, and reduce the waiting times in ERs. If the public option is killed because certain Americans hate brown people, it won’t drive the immigrants out of the country. All you will have accomplished is perpetuating the misery of doctors, hospitals and patients.

  117. curious says:

    forked tongue spouted:

    You live in a bizarre, hallucinatory fugue state utterly unconstrained by reality. In your derangement, you somehow take empirical data and twist, mutilate and maim it into a feverishly scrambled set of paranoid delusions. Nothing you say can be taken seriously, now or at any time, because you have permanently cut yourself off from the community of the sane and lucid.

    So, you are saying that Democrats and their left wing allies like Code Pink did not disrupt Republican speakers continuously in the past 8 years?

    You are saying that left wing Democrats did not disrupt military funerals?

    You are saying that left wing Democrats did not disrupt President Bush’s 2005 State of the Union address?

    You are saying that left wing Democrats did not hold counter demonstrations at EVERY pro-troop rally? You are on slippery ice on this one because I was at several of these rallies and I saw this disgusting behavior with my own eyes.

    You are saying that left wing Democrats did not and are not disrupting Republican student meetings on pretty much every college campus that they are held on?

    You are saying that left wing Democrats did not disrupt President Bush’s 2005 inaugural address?

    I could go on and on but I think you get my point.

  118. curious says:

    Mithras said

    Uninsured people, immigrants and Americans, often use the ER as their primary care facility. If they can’t pay, the hospital loses because it provided uncompensated care. If the public option goes through, then some of those people will be able to afford insurance, which will get them better care, get the hospitals paid, and reduce the waiting times in ERs. If the public option is killed because certain Americans hate brown people, it won’t drive the immigrants out of the country. All you will have accomplished is perpetuating the misery of doctors, hospitals and patients.

    I am vehemently opposed to the public option, but not because I hate brown people.

    The reason I want a low cost walk in clinic in every neighborhood is to give people access to low cost health care for procedures that are not complex invasive procedures. If such clinics existed the cost of providing health care would drop significantly because hospitals would no longer have to provide such care and could focus more on the things they are best at – trauma, complex surgery, long term illnesses like cancer.

    Now if you argue that there are people who can not afford to pay even the low prices the low cost walk in clinics would charge, the clinic I go to charges $20 for an office visit for example, well then you need to have a debate on whether or not it is my responsibility to pay their medical care. I think that it is not my responsibility. But, I am not cold hearted. I definitely don’t want to pay a monthly premium for everyone so that they don’t have to pay for even simple office visits. This is not cost effective. Nor is it my responsibility.

    Two very different issues are being confused by the pro public option. First is the lack of accessibility to even the most basic health care by a large number of Americans. This one I agree with wholeheartedly. I think it is a disgrace that the rich suburbs have plenty of options for good health care and the inner cities have nothing. So, fix that problem first.

    Second, is health insurance that will pay for catastrophes or complex procedures that low cost clinics cannot handle. What does a poor person do when they have a life threatening illness and no insurance? They go to the hospital and the hospital treats them and sends them a bill. Then the person wades through a myriad of bureaucracies to find the right assistance program to pay the bill. Or, in the case of illegals who do not give their real identity the hospital is forced to right off the expense.

    I view the second as a separate issue from the first.

    I don’t know what the solution to the second problem is but I will not support a plan that does not resolve the first problem.

  119. Mithras says:

    What does a poor person do when they have a life threatening illness and no insurance? They go to the hospital and the hospital treats them and sends them a bill. Then the person wades through a myriad of bureaucracies to find the right assistance program to pay the bill. Or, in the case of illegals who do not give their real identity the hospital is forced to right off the expense.

    The millions of citizens who are too poor to afford health insurance but not poor enough to qualify for the joke that is Medicaid don’t “wade[] through a myriad of bureaucracies to find the right assistance program to pay the bill.” What assistance program? There sure isn’t anything from the government, because if there were we wouldn’t be having this conversation. If you’re implying there is some sort of private charity that will pay for hospitalization, surgery and expensive treatments, please provide a link. It doesn’t happen. The bill doesn’t get paid. And the hospitals and the patients get screwed.

  120. floyd says:

    ““No president has ever been treated like that. Ever,” Mr. Emanuel said.”
    “””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

    YOU LIE!!

  121. anjin-san says:

    The angry right shows its true face. Anger & ignorance are pretty much all they have left. Damn I miss William F Buckley. If you rolled all the “leaders” on the right into one they would still not be half the man he was…

  122. Kevin says:

    Here we go again. Its a double standard by the media and Democrats. Joe tells the truth and he gets criticized. When the Dem’s speak out and call the town hall people names its ok. Wake up politicians and media. American people see you don’t care about them. American people are speaking out loud and clear. You better wake up and do what they say or you will be without a job. If you ignore them, promise this country will go into the toilet.

  123. G.A.Phillips says:

    Brain washed liberals….. this is so sad, pathetic manipulated idiots, very very sad.

  124. forked tongue says:

    Curious: I am saying all that and more. You are insane.

    Name me one prominent Democrat who has embraced Code Pink (which, incidentally, made its name by protesting outside appearances by Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi).

    I need a citation on that “disruption of military funerals.” The only such disruptions I know of were mounted by Fred Phelps.

    What are these “pro-troop” rallies of which you speak? And are you equating holding a counter-demonstration across the street with disrupting and shouting down? Because I was one of the 500,000 people who marched against the Iraq war in New York, and let me tell you, those wan, pasty malcontents lurking around the fringes yelling at us that we were traitors were just SOOOOO mean ‘n’ nasty!! Boo hoo, make them stop, Daddy!

    You are saying that left wing Democrats did not and are not disrupting Republican student meetings on pretty much every college campus that they are held on?

    You’re just babbling now. You have no idea of what you’re talking about and are just hurling shit, hoping it will stick.

    Deep, deep derangement. Truly pathetic.

  125. curious says:

    The millions of citizens who are too poor to afford health insurance but not poor enough to qualify for the joke that is Medicaid don’t “wade[] through a myriad of bureaucracies to find the right assistance program to pay the bill.” What assistance program? There sure isn’t anything from the government, because if there were we wouldn’t be having this conversation. If you’re implying there is some sort of private charity that will pay for hospitalization, surgery and expensive treatments, please provide a link. It doesn’t happen. The bill doesn’t get paid. And the hospitals and the patients get screwed.

    I can only speak from personal experience. When I was younger I had a life threatening illness. Came out of nowhere. I was rushed to the hospital. I did not have insurance. After I was released I met with the hospital’s financial aid office several times. They found a federal program and a state program that paid most of the bill, I paid payments on maybe 20% of the bill. My daughter had a similar experience in Florida. That is all I can tell you.

  126. Mithras says:

    curious- Good for you and your daughter. I’m happy for your good fortune in finding government programs to pick up part of your medical tab. Such things are surely not common, since if they were, then we wouldn’t be dealing with the horror stories that come from the insurance company practice of recission. But if you’re okay with “a federal program and a state program that paid most of the bill”, then what’s wrong with a program that does all that for citizens without the rigamarole of jumping through bureaucratic hoops?

  127. floyd says:

    SHAME ON YOU JOE!!
    for apologizing.