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Some Respond To Election Results By Advocating Secession

We’ve seen all variety of responses to President Obama’s re-election victory last week. Some on the right seem to be well on the way to making their way through the five stages of grief, although there does seem to be an inordinate amount of time being spent on the “Denial” phase, an excellent example of which you. Others on the right appear at least on the surface to earnestly want to engage in a debate about the future of their party, to break out of the conservative media bubble, and to broaden the party’s appeal beyond the limited demographic boundaries that the party found itself trapped in this year, and which will trap it even more in the future. Some, like Rush Limbaugh, don’t appear to think the party needs to change at all or that the Republicans lost this year because the nominee wasn’t conservative enough. And then there are the more extreme people, like those who have decided that the proper response to losing an election is to advocate secession from the Union:

President Obama’s reelection last week has prompted a slew of requests to secede from the United States.

Using the Obama administration’s own We the People website, nearly two dozen petitions have sprung up asking the Obama administration for permission to withdraw from the Union.

The two most popular petitions, Texas and Louisiana, have both drawn more than 10,000 signatures each as of Monday morning. The Texas petition needs only 7,000 more signatures to trigger an official White House response.

None of the petitions explicitly cite Obama’s reelection as a reason for independence, but all were created after last week’s elections.

“The citizens of the US suffer from blatant abuses of their rights such as the [National Defense Authorization Act], the [Transportation Security Administration], etc,” the Texas petition charges. “Given that the state of Texas maintains a balanced budget and is the 15th largest economy in the world, it is practically feasible for Texas to withdraw from the union, and to do so would protect it’s citizens’ standard of living and re-secure their rights and liberties in accordance with the original ideas and beliefs of our founding fathers which are no longer being reflected by the federal government.”

Others are more vague for in their reasons for wanting to leave the country.

“just like in 1860 the south secede from the union. 2012 the state of georgia would like to withdraw from the USA,” one of the Georgia petitions states.

Those calls were repeated last week by a Texas GOP official who called the people who voted for President Obama “maggots”:

A Republican official in Texas called for his state to separate from the United States and the “maggots” who reelected President Barack Obama in a newsletter he sent out this week.

Peter Morrison, who serves as treasurer of the Hardin County Republican Party, wrote in his post-election newsletter that there was a clear solution to the problem of Obama’s re-election.

“We must contest every single inch of ground and delay the baby-murdering, tax-raising socialists at every opportunity,” Morrison wrote. “But in due time, the maggots will have eaten every morsel of flesh off of the rotting corpse of the Republic, and therein lies our opportunity.”

“Texas was once its own country, and many Texans already think in nationalist terms about their state. We need to do everything possible to encourage a long-term shift in thinking on this issue. Why should Vermont and Texas live under the same government? Let each go her own way in peace, sign a free trade agreement among the states and we can avoid this gut-wrenching spectacle every four years,” he wrote.

The contents of the letter were first reported by the Texas Observer and TFN Insider.

Morrison also wrote that “many members of minority groups are simply racist against the party most white people happen to vote for.” He singled out Asian Americans, who he said should be Republican “as they earn more money and pay more in taxes than white Americans.”

It was, of course, an election result that prompted secession in 1860 and 1861. However, as I argued in a post a wrote some five years ago, even if one accepted that there was a right to secede (and I think the Civil War settled that matter), an election result does not rise to the level necessary to justify it:

After a bitterly contested four-way race between Lincoln, Stephen Douglas, John Bell, and John Breckinridge. Abraham Lincoln was elected President of the United States. He got almost no support in the Southern United States and won no states south of the Mason-Dixon Line. The Southern vote, in the meantime, was split between Breckinridge and Bell, with Douglas winning only Missouri. Ironically, those three candidates won a higher percentage of the popular vote (60%) even though Lincoln won the Electoral College.

It was immediately after the election results were certified, and even before Lincoln took the oath of office, that South Carolina seceded. In fact, the entire Deep South had seceded by February 1861.

So, the question is, does the loss of your preferred candidate in a contested Presidential campaign justify rebellion ? Absent some other contributing factor, the answer clearly is no — when the Constitution was formed, the people agreed that they would accept the results of the elections that took place under it. If South Carolina had a right to secede in 1861 because Lincoln won, does that mean that Massachusetts had a right to secede in 2004 when John Kerry lost ?

The logical answer is, I think, no.

And the reason that the answer is no is that the democratic process does not guarantee that your candidate will win, and once you agree to participate in it your are in some sense bound to accept the results of a free and fair election. The fact that your preferred candidate loses, by itself, is not a justifiable ground for a revolution which is, in the end, what secession actually is. Personally I don’t believe that many, if any, of the people making these comments are serious about it, but to the extent they are, they’re advocating something wholly without moral justification.

Now, the Treasurer of the Hardin County Republican Party certainly doesn’t speak for the entire Texas Republican Party, not to mention the Republican Party in general. Additionally, it’s likely that many of the signatures on these “secession petitions” are from your regular Internet whack jobs. Indeed, I can say that none of the conservatives that I follow on Twitter or Facebook are taking talk like this seriously, and most of them are denouncing it as stupid and pointless. Nonetheless,  this is yet another example of the absurdity of the mindset of many people on the right. Secession? Seriously people, this isn’t 1860 and you’re not Jefferson Davis. But go ahead and sign your silly petitions people, like it will actually ever accomplish anything.

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About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May, 2010 and also writes at Below The Beltway. Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. Vast Variety says:

    “The United States of Me” mentality

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  2. Tillman says:

    I’m sorry, Texas petition writer, but your founding fathers were not mine. See, I live in North Carolina, an original among the thirteen colonies that rebelled against the British. If I recall your history correctly, you were an independent republic for a bit before you joined the union. Sam Houston, again if I recall correctly, was among your founding fathers.

    Now, about that “seceding” trip you’re thinking of taking, no, it wouldn’t normalize or perpetuate your standard of living since the federal government gives you more money than your citizens pay in taxes. One good reason to stick with the union? That sweet, sweet federal money.

    I’ve found money motivates people, so I thought I’d suggest it.

    Morrison also wrote that “many members of minority groups are simply racist against the party most white people happen to vote for.” He singled out Asian Americans, who he said should be Republican “as they earn more money and pay more in taxes than white Americans.”

    The thing about Asians, see, is that their culture of origin? Really big on the collectivist thing.

    I think my failing is I attempt to communicate with insane (or deluded) people too often.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 2

  3. Frankly I think we’d be better of letting them go. In fact, why even wait for them to secede? Let’s, making up a word for it, seject them!

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 33 Thumb down 1

  4. DC Loser says:

    Not soon after Tejas secedes, the southern portion along the Mexican border and San Antonio will break off from that rump state.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  5. legion says:

    Ahhhh, the gutless wonders of the Future Confederacy. Their tears of anguish are almost as nourishing as Karl Rove’s.

    I may live in a thoroughly Red state, but at least the folks up here aren’t as uneducated and callow as Texas Republicans.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

  6. Kit says:

    America, love it or leave it, all you self-styled true Americans.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  7. grumpy realist says:

    @DC Loser: Supposedly that’s one reason the Quebec separtists haven’t really pushed for secession….they know full well that the day after they broke off the Amerindians living in the north of that area would secede in turn. Not too bad, except that that’s the part of the land that has the hydroelectric power plant on it….

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  8. legion says:

    Also, if Texas were to secede, what would happen to Austin? Would it get walled up like West Berlin? Would we have to airlift in supplies of hipster glasses and back issues of Mother Jones?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 41 Thumb down 0

  9. C. Clavin says:

    I think all those Red States that suck tax dollars from us Blues States should go ahead and get the f’ out. Have a nice day, y’all.
    Bobby Jindal, try balancing your budget without federal dollars.
    Mississippi….have at it.
    Sam Brownback…you and Kansas are sucking up Federal welfare.
    Sarah Palin’s Alaska? Good luck. Nice knowing you.
    As for Texas…a state that just barely makes it with $0.96 cents returned for every $1.00 sent to Washington…we can live without your $0.04.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1

  10. DC Loser says:

    @grumpy realist – Yup. The First Nation owns the parts of Northern Quebec that has the dams and hydroelectric plants that powers the lower half of the province and most of eastern Canada, and they’re not too friendly to the idea of a French majority ruler over them. Plus, an independent Quebec would never be able to pay for its social-welfare programs that are heavily subsidized by the rest of Canada.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  11. Geek, Esq. says:

    We on the left went through this in 2004.

    Remember the map of “United States of Canada” and “Jesusland?”

    Obama and Democrats learned the right lessons. Will the Republicans?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

  12. Murray says:

    It seems to me most of the “secessionist” states receive more cash from Washington than they send.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

  13. PJ says:

    I guess they think Texas needs to secede before i turns blue (or at least purple).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  14. scott says:

    I would ask these secessionists if they ever said the Pledge of Allegiance, whether they had their fingers crossed, and whether they understood the word “indivisible”.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  15. Tsar Nicholas says:

    Lowest common denominator principle. And FYI 30,000 or so wingnuts are not representative of anything. That’s one hundreth of one percent of the population (0.01) and two hundredths of one percent of the number of people who voted in this year’s election (0.02).

    That aside, back in the day, at Berzerkely, long before BDS and ODS, they too from time to time used to talk about succeeding from the union. I always got a kick out of that. Not only because of the legal niceties. Occasionally just for kicks, in between drinks and smokes, I’d ask them whether they’d mind the inconvenience of needing a passport to cross the Bay Bridge and having to pay import duties to bring a carton of milk home from Oakland or El Cerrito. From the blank expressions it was clear they really hadn’t thought things through all that well.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1

  16. Habbit says:

    The United States federal government sucks. If people in individual states don’t want to be a part of the wealth sucking machine, they have every constitutional right to demand disengagement.

    Have fun sticking up for your future third world environment, you “progressives.”

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 49

  17. Alex Knapp says:

    To quote myself from a couple of days ago:

    ‘Personally, I think if you sign a secession petition or declare yourself a sovereign citizen, or whatever nonsense, you should wake up one morning to find a barbed wire fence around your property with a border guard at the gate, patiently explaining that you can’t enter the United States until your country has established normalized diplomatic relations and set up a passport system. And no, you won’t be getting your water and power back until you’ve negotiated a trade agreement with the United States so that its companies can engage in commerce in your nation.’

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 64 Thumb down 1

  18. Habbit says:

    @Alex Knapp:

    you should wake up one morning to find a barbed wire fence around your property with a border guard at the gate,

    Which is funny, because you wouldn’t put up a barbed wire fence along the US-Mexico border, you hypocrite.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 42

  19. DC Loser says:

    Yup. Us third worlders will just have to suffer in our poverty in New York, Boston, Washington DC, Miami, San Francisco, Seattle, Los Angeles and San Diego. While you Red First Worlders can enjoy Kentucky, Mississippi, and Arkansas.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 29 Thumb down 1

  20. Tsar Nicholas says:

    @Tsar Nicholas: OMG. Maybe I need to start drinking again. (0.01%) and (0.02%), that is. Yikes.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  21. Rick Almeida says:

    @Habbit:

    If people in individual states don’t want to be a part of the wealth sucking machine, they have every constitutional right to demand disengagement.

    Which right is this? Where’s the Constitutional right to secede?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  22. Habbit says:

    @DC Loser:

    Pretty sure those southern states wouldn’t mind you keeping your highest-crime-rates-in-the-nation cities. And as far as ST-DC goes… :)

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 19

  23. DC Loser says:

    You haven’t been to Atlanta, New Orleans, St. Louis or Memphis lately, have you?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

  24. Habbit says:

    @Rick Almeida:

    I hope I at least have the constitutional right for you not to stuff words into my statements, especially after you directly quote me.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 18

  25. Habbit says:

    @DC Loser:

    You’ve never read a book, have you? With the exception of Memphis, if I remember correctly all other cities with the top ten highest crime rates are located in your third-world paradises.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 24

  26. bookdragon says:

    @Alex Knapp:
    I’d love to see this happen.

    In fact, let Alabama and Mississippi secede as an experiment – and let the rest watch what becomes of them w/o the federal aid they rely on and with the additional burdens of being countries in their own right.

    Of course, all US citizen within their borders would be given the choice of retaining US citizenship or becoming Alassippians. After the brain drain that follows, that new country is even less likely to make it a year before *begging* for readmission to the union.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  27. DC Loser says:

    We’ll just have to suffer. I’m all for it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  28. Habbit says:

    @bookdragon:

    Can I play the baseless prediction game too? Ok, ok! I’m sure that YOU’LL be wanting to join those “Alassippians” after TSA begins mandatory anal probes before flight boardings!

    This is fun! :D

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 27

  29. Brummagem Joe says:

    The irony of this is that all these Republican nut jobs seem to have lost sight of the fact that the first president from their party fought a great civil war that cost 700,000 lives in order to preserve the union.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 1

  30. Jc says:

    Texas, please leave. No more Dallas Cowboys.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  31. CSK says:

    The secessionists are the same drooling troglodytes who are advocating civil war. Given that there are no purely red or blue states, or even towns or cities, what are they going to do–shoot the folks next door?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  32. Alex Knapp says:

    @bookdragon – Lose the South? The home of blues, barbecue, rock ‘n’ roll, Cajun food and more? No. No. No. That’s not a desirable outcome.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  33. Latino_in_Boston says:

    I have often thought that the US would have been better off without the Civil War, because if the South had been allowed to secede, eventually, they would have become like Central America, a divided bunch of Banana Republics whose economy depended entirely on primary products. While the North would have become closer to a Canadian model, where Conservatives recognize the importance of government action and don’t speak fondly of some no-government utopia that has never existed.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 2

  34. ernieyeball says:

    @Alex Knapp: Why wait for them to successfully secede?
    The Confederate Flag is not the Flag of The United States of America. It is the Flag of some other country. I am sure that all those who display that banner and call it their own will be happy to carry a Green Card and present it to United States Officials on demand!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  35. grumpy realist says:

    @Tsar Nicholas: Well, yeah. Secessionism ain’t anything more than a temper tantrum on the part of iijits who are royally norked that their magic candidate hasn’t been elected.

    (And yes, I address this to the iijits on the Left as well as on the Right.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  36. Paludicola says:

    I have to admit, I wouldn’t be all that incensed if the south left again. Their loss, really. It might be a little more pleasant to refer to myself as a citizen of the United States of America if that didn’t include Alabama and Mississippi (Goddamn). Reacting to losing an election by stomping off might be poor sportsmanship, but the south clearly knows what they want; maybe letting them go off and have it might be for the best. Besides, fewer states might make for a more governable nation less able to make trouble abroad. Heck, a USA that was really just the Northeast and Midwest would feel about the right size to me. (No offense to any other regions intended)

    Of course, the thing that gives me great pause is that an independent south might well lead to horrific rises in poverty, persecution of homosexuals and mistreatment of immigrants. It might sound condescending to say, but sometimes I feel that being part of the United States is the only thing that keeps some parts of the country from doing awful things.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  37. John Burgess says:

    Can we go back a little earlier? Say to 1850? Before California got admitted? That was a big mistake.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 9

  38. dennis says:

    @Paludicola:

    It might sound condescending to say, but sometimes I feel that being part of the United States is the only thing that keeps some parts of the country from doing awful things.

    That’s actually a very interesting and profound point you made there, P. That would make an interesting thesis.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  39. KariQ says:

    @John Burgess:

    Can we go back a little earlier? Say to 1850? Before California got admitted? That was a big mistake.

    I agree, California should never have joined the Union. After all, if Texas with the 15th largest economy in the world and receiving 96 cents per dollar it sends in federal taxes will be fine on its own, then the 7th or 8th (it varies, I don’t recall what it is at the moment) largest economy in the world and receiving 76 cents per dollar on federal of federal taxes is really just being weighed down by the rest of country. Time to resurrect the Bear Flag Republic!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0

  40. Brian says:

    @Paludicola:
    I actually find it shocking how little many of you know about the south, as if it were some type of monolithic society. I’ve seen just as much assimilation of Latino and Asian, and yes black society in big southern cities as I’ve seen in Chicago and San Francisco. Houston of all places has a gay mayor and as large a gay population as any city its size to the north. Then there are all the people who died to preserve our nation during the civil war, as if they no longer count because time has passed. Many of you “progressives” need to think more like Americans. Your talk of “yea, let ‘em go” scares me more than the pitiful few wingnuts who have been passing around succession petitions. Really people, are you more partisan than American? Is that the real problem we will need to deal with in our future as a nation? And I thought the fiscal cliff was bad….

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 2

  41. bill says:

    cherry picking the facts from the lookout? here’s the list of states that filed, not all red – sorry to ruin a good non-story with facts. and no state can actually secede anyway, get over yourselves.
    “States with citizens filing include Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oregon, South Carolina, Tennessee and Texas”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 6

  42. Davebo says:

    Drive to Kountze in Hardin County Texas.

    Notice the nicest two buildings in town. First, the local office of the Department of Health and Human Services. Second, the Post Office.

    Not a bad town mind you. But not exactly populated by the mythical “rugged individualists”. It’s more of a “I make it on my own! Don’t need no Fed or State authorities meddling in!”. Followed by “What’s that you said about my previous federal farm subsidy or state Ag exemption???”

    Careful what you wish for folks. Heck, the folks in nearby Vidor Texas look at them and say “Wow, those are some wacky white folks there!”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  43. mantis says:

    @Habbit:

    I hope I at least have the constitutional right for you not to stuff words into my statements, especially after you directly quote me.

    You do not. Not too familiar with our Constitution, are you?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  44. JKB says:

    @PJ: before i turns blue (or at least purple).

    Just breath, PJ, it’ll be all right.

    Why leave the union, just use the members of Congress to starve the federal bureaucracy while the regulatory responsibility is devolved to the States. Of course, the national republicans won’t do that as they love their cash and power as much as the democrats. One path though is to block any federal bailout of California, Illinois or New York.

    Victor Davis Hason wrote about this in the context of history

    Europe may in the not-too-distant future end up as it was in the 16th century, before the rise of the nation state. If current trends continue, the United States may unwind in the reverse of the manner in which frontiers became territories and then states. No entity is ensured perpetual union. The process of forming nations and empires and then disassembling them back into small city states or provincial units is certainly not novel, but rather ancient, and more likely fluid and cyclical than linear — even if the process takes decades or at times centuries. When an empire or even a nation state can no longer guarantee locals that the increased security and wealth of a vast union makes it well worth transcending their parochial customs and ethnic profiles, then we have a Greece of 1,500 city states, or a medieval Europe of castles and moats.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 10

  45. Habbit says:

    @mantis:

    I don’t know what I’m talking about. Ever.

    Point taken.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 9

  46. An Interested Party says:

    Many of you “progressives” need to think more like Americans.

    That’s rather rich on a thread about some southern yahoos arguing for secession just because their desired candidate lost an election…

    Is that the real problem we will need to deal with in our future as a nation?

    Forget the future, partisanship is a problem right now…looking at the reaction of Republicans in Congress against the President, it is very easy to see where the partisanship problem is coming from…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

  47. Habbit says:

    @Brian:

    My uncle (black) from Tennessee goes shooting with a KKK ‘leader’ in southern Kentucky every few weekends out of the year.

    The fools here can’t wrap their tiny minds around how something like that works, because they’re nothing more than a bunch of whiny, little children whose entire social mentality is composed of “US VERSUS THEM,” “I DON’T LIKE = HATE,” “I HATE PEOPLE WHO HATE” and cannot comprehend that other people may not possess the same (lack of) thinking they possess.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 21

  48. Habbit says:

    @An Interested Party:

    It’s more that some people would rather not live in the third world ideal you envision. But they will allow you the choice to live however you like.

    Which is the difference between them and you, who wish to force people to be exactly like you.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 15

  49. alanmt says:

    I reviewed the first 150 names of the 400 and some names that were on the Montana petition this afternoon to see if I knew any of them and discovered, to my surprise, that only 9 of the first 150 were Montanans at all.

    By my math, that means people from other states are trying to kick us out of the union.

    Good luck with that.

    Of course, if we were independent, I think we would be in the top 5 nuclear powers in the world.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  50. wr says:

    @Tsar Nicholas: Wow, Tsar Nick still thinks fondly of the time he was able to outargue a couple of stoned freshmen.

    Although one suspects the blank expression was really there to keep him from realizing they were laughing at him.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  51. mantis says:

    @Habbit:

    I don’t know what I’m talking about. Ever.

    Thanks for letting us know, but that was abundantly clear already.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  52. wr says:

    @Habbit: Okay, I think you’re a right-wing nut, but that was funny! Well done on the barb wire!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  53. wr says:

    @Brummagem Joe: Where ya been, B Joe? Or have you been posting under another name?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  54. Habbit says:

    @mantis:

    I’m really not at all clever.

    We know.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 10

  55. Habbit says:

    @wr:

    So right-wing, I live in and work in another country!

    A country, by the way, whose unspoken mantra is, “You don’t work, you don’t eat.”

    90% middle-class.

    I’m black too.

    Continue tossing up your half-wit insults from your third-world pit, peon. :)

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 21

  56. mantis says:

    I love a good unspoken mantra…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  57. Habbit says:

    @mantis:

    Please don’t work.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 9

  58. An Interested Party says:

    The fools here can’t wrap their tiny minds around how something like that works, because they’re nothing more than a bunch of whiny, little children whose entire social mentality is composed of “US VERSUS THEM,” “I DON’T LIKE = HATE,” “I HATE PEOPLE WHO HATE” and cannot comprehend that other people may not possess the same (lack of) thinking they possess.

    This too is rather rich on a thread talking about some southern yahoos are arguing for secession simply because their preferred presidential candidate lost…

    It’s more that some people would rather not live in the third world ideal you envision. But they will allow you the choice to live however you like.

    Which is the difference between them and you, who wish to force people to be exactly like you.

    And you were ticked off because you thought that wr made a bunch of assumptions about you so you turn around and rattle off a bunch of uninformed assumptions yourself…perhaps you are pissed off because of last week’s election results…calm down, take a deep breath…maybe you should seek some psychiatric help…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  59. David M says:

    @Habbit:

    It’s more that some people would rather not live in the third world ideal you envision. But they will allow you the choice to live however you like.

    Where is this third world stuff coming from? Are cities perfect? No, but people sure like living in them for how bad they are supposed to be.

    Which is the difference between them and you, who wish to force people to be exactly like you.

    Who’s forcing anything? If you don’t like cities then don’t live in a city, I’m not sure what you think you’re being forced into.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  60. dennis says:

    @Habbit:

    The door is over there. You’re welcome to leave anytime you feel the need. No one is holding you back.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0

  61. Habbit says:

    @An Interested Party:

    What? First off, can you read? You have the order of the scenario completely incorrect. Secondly, how can I be “ticked” at someone I look down on?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 9

  62. Habbit says:

    @dennis:

    You must have missed the part about living and working in another country. Don’t worry, the door to reading comprehension never closes.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 13

  63. Let's Be Free says:

    Obama would love this. If states were to secede he could give Doris Kearns Goodwin one more Lincoln parallel to write up — starting a civil war whatever the consequences.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 7

  64. An Interested Party says:

    What? First off, can you read? You have the order of the scenario completely incorrect.

    No, actually I don’t have the order incorrect…you were mad that he made assumptions about you and then you turn around and make assumptions about me (that’s why I highlighted what you wrote about me)…yes, I can read but obviously you don’t understand context…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  65. anjin-san says:

    @ Habbit

    Conservatives tend to be big on Heinlein. You should check out a story he wrote called “Coventry”…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  66. An Interested Party says:

    If states were to secede he could give Doris Kearns Goodwin one more Lincoln parallel to write up — starting a civil war whatever the consequences.

    Actually, the traitorous losers who tried or would try to leave the union started or would start a civil war…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  67. anjin-san says:

    If these clowns don’t want to be part of America, they are free to head to the beach and start swimming. We will keep the real estate, thanks.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

  68. Tillman says:

    @Habbit: And we have a winner!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

  69. dennis says:

    @Habbit:

    You must have missed the part about living and working in another country. Don’t worry, the door to reading comprehension never closes.

    And you must’ve missed that I meant the door to this blog. You’re right; reading IS fundamental.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  70. dennis says:

    @Habbit:

    You know, reading between the lines and — oh, nevermind.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  71. al-Ameda says:

    This time, let’s not make the mistake Lincoln made – let them go.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  72. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    As soon as I saw this article, I knew I could expect one thing: several people all talking about how the states in question apparently collect more funds from DC than they pay, so they’re hypocrites who will pay dearly if they succeeded.

    I dunno why I’m bothering to respond to this, because Tsar N already pointed out what an incredibly small percentage of people we’re talking about here, but there are several factors that don’t seem to be addressed. Let’s see what things would come up if the laughably ridiculous notion of secession were to pass.

    1) The states would inherit a great deal of federal property, which they could then use however they wish. One possibility would be to sell it off and tax it.

    2) The people in question here consider themselves rather independent and self-sufficient, and would be highly motivated to demonstrate how they can get by without the federal funding. They might feel the pinch, but they would have great incentives to manage it.

    3) The states would be free to set their own taxes on imports and exports. Texas, for example, would be a net energy exporter. Louisiana has New Orleans, one of the most important ports currently in the US thanks to it being the terminus of the Mississippi River. Remember all the talks and fears of temporarily losing the Port of New Orleans after Katrina? Make that permanent. All those Midwest states that currently depend on getting goods up and down the Mississippi — forget all that.

    4) There are a LOT of US military bases in the states in question. That could make things very challenging for the remaining US — what to do about the troops stationed in seceding states?

    I understand the left really pushes the culture of dependence and can’t imagine how average people can get by largely on their own, but a lot of people actually aspire to that.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 20

  73. Herb says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    “I dunno why I’m bothering to respond to this, because Tsar N already pointed out what an incredibly small percentage of people we’re talking about here, but there are several factors that don’t seem to be addressed.”

    It’s being addressed because longing for secession has become kind of a “thing” in the sore loser/unhinged right-o-sphere. They lose an election, decide they don’t want to live with the liberals, and then fantasize about making their own country.

    It’s true, there aren’t many of these people. So I guess it’s a good thing you’re there to help them with their bullet points. “We get to keep the port of New Orleans. Didn’t think of that one.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

  74. anjin-san says:

    Jenos – You are actually thinking the details of secession through?

    When was the last time you had a date?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 2

  75. labman57 says:

    The juvenile tea party fanatics, racist birthers, self-righteous religious extremists, and bombastic right wing pundits are suffering from indigestion from all of the sour grapes that they have consumed. Elections matter.
    Obama won. The Democrats extended their control of the Senate and made gains in the House. Deal with it!

    Right wing reactionary malcontents within the tea party movement who are advocating secession from the Union — suggesting that a Democratic Republic is only valid when their candidate is elected — are the antithesis of the true American spirit. They are fond of indignantly proclaiming: “We want our country back!” Note to the irrational ranters — it’s not your country, it’s everyone’s country.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

  76. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @anjin-san: You’re right, I really shouldn’t take the leftists here seriously. I mean, it’s all “herp derr teabag racist secessionist hypocrites” gussied up in fancy words and snotty attitude.

    But after the umpteenth “let the teabag racists secede and see how screwed they’d be,” the temptation to rub a bit of harsh reality in those smug faces is pretty irresistible.

    So, yeah, I gave it about five minutes’ thought, looking at that map. And ways of poking holes in the blathering jumped out at me.

    A couple more notions come to mind: kiss off the entire Gulf of Mexico and its resources. Say goodbye to NASA in Florida, along with Disney World.

    And that’s without even mentioning that the New Confederacy would have a very impressive military, considering they possess two battleships and an aircraft carrier, along with the former Confederate Air Force…

    What’s the matter, you don’t like it when others play your little game, and spank you at it?

    Tough shit.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 15

  77. anjin-san says:

    you don’t like it when others play your little game, and spank you at it?

    I guess you have not heard that only people who never actually win anything declare themselves winners? Especially over, and over, and over…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 2

  78. anjin-san says:

    Say Jenos, since you seem to think you are on a roll, why don’t you reprise the story about how Mitt Romney saved a drowning man? We kind of miss you fawning over him…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 1

  79. W. Clarke says:

    @Murray: black is truly a wonderful willful state.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  80. W. Clarke says:

    @Murray: black is truly a wonderful willful state.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  81. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @anjin-san: Alert! Alert! Engage “Operation Change The Subject!”

    Why don’t you recount us with how Barack Obama owes his very existence to the March On Selma? Or discuss his “evolving” position on gay marriage? Or how Joe Biden said… well, pretty much anything?

    You wanna drop this subject and talk about something else? Fine. But let you choose the new topic? Sorry, you don’t have that authority.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 15

  82. sam says:

    I for one am glad to see that 13 has recovered from his post-election vapors and has returned to us in fine form.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  83. john personna says:

    I agree with the somewhat nutty commentors above, who complain that they shouldn’t be painted with the very nutty secessionist brush. That difference in degree can be a difference in kind.

    The GOP has problems enough with the somewhat nutty.

    No need to take it further.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  84. Just Me says:

    I mostly view threats of secession with the idiot liberals who threaten to move to Canada if their candidate doesn’t win. Problem for conservatives is they don’t really have a country they can threaten to move to, so they fantasize about seceding.

    Nobody should take this seriously.

    That said, as much as you liberals making fun of Alabama and Kentucky think you are superior, the reality is that if we separated the two regions into two countries, the south would probably thrive contrary to what so many of you expect.

    The south already has better tax policy. Companies like Toyota and Honda have plants all through the south, because the taxes are friendlier. The rust belt has been bleeding jobs overseas and to the south for years. If the south secedes those jobs would bleed even more.

    The south has farm land. The entire northern states would have to depend on California for its fresh vegetables, while the south has an extra long growing season and transport from the southern areas with two growing seasons would be much easier in the south than transporting from California to New England.

    Oh and I seriously doubt Florida would lose its tourism dollars to the North.

    I think anyone talking about the south as becoming a 3rd world nation is pretty much about as stupid as those who actually talk about secession.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 10

  85. bookdragon says:

    @Alex Knapp: We have fine blues and BBQ in Chicago and Philly, not to mention rock’n’roll in NJ and NYC. ;D

    I would mourn the loss of Cajun food, but it doesn’t seem likely. I’m pretty sure New Orleans would vote to stay with the US.

    More seriously, I don’t buy Texas wanting to secede – it’s getting too close to being a purple state. Certain counties might (can we wall them off as you proposed for individuals? I’d contribute to a fund for building that wall), but most of it would stay.

    In fact, the idea of the whole south wanting to leave is clearly wrong. VA’s and FL’s EVs went for Obama, and NC only barely stayed red.

    So,

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  86. john personna says:

    @Just Me:

    In dollars and cents it would be a great deal for any American 50+ to move to Canada. All that free medicine.

    For this reason, Canada doesn’t actually let many in.

    If they had “open borders” they’d be swamped by graying America.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  87. Rob in CT says:

    Look, people get upset when they lose an election. You have to expect a certain amount of whining. Some liberals made noises about moving to Canada in 2004. And there was that map that somebody made up with the North/West + Canada as one country, and “Jesusland” as another.

    Unless somebody actually *does* something, it’s just venting.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  88. Just Me says:

    If they had “open borders” they’d be swamped by graying America.

    So true. Although the graying America might not like the fact that Canada’s health insurance doesn’t over prescription benefits.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

  89. john personna says:

    @Just Me:

    That person should not be trusted with a household budget.

    Remember why people used to order pills from Canada, and why Medicare Part D was enacted?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  90. Rob in CT says:

    And seriously, who exactly are we talking about here?

    This is nutpicking. Granted, the Right is a target-rich environment for nutpickers, but I get this icky feeling, like I’m watching somebody pick on the slow kid…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  91. Karen B says:

    People just can’t get over the fact the Obama won again. Get over it and move on with your lives. Some white people want to control everything and when they find they can not they have temper tantrums. You show your ignorance more than ever! But some of you are quick to say people of color are insane. This makes no sense the way some of you all are behaving. So I guess since some of you do not agree with the election then changes will be made in the way we vote. George W. Bush did not win either time he was in office and people of color were not whinning we just dealt with how stupid he was….Remember he is the one who caused all of this but you blame Obama for something when he was not in office yet. What can he do when congress will not allow him to do anything. Stop crying! When things do not go your way some people who are part of the majority behave so badly! Stop it!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  92. Rafer Janders says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    Say goodbye to NASA in Florida, along with Disney World. And that’s without even mentioning that the New Confederacy would have a very impressive military, considering they possess two battleships and an aircraft carrier, along with the former Confederate Air Force…

    You know all that stuff belong to the federal government, don’t you? In case the South seceded, it wouldn’t get to keep any of the federal facilities and assets (including the military) currently based in the South — that would all be packed up and shipped back home.

    I mean, for Christ’s sake, how stupid do you have to be to believe this? NASA is a US government organization, not a Texas/Florida organization. When the USSR dissolved, Russia didn’t let all of the former Soviet republics keep the nukes that were based on their soil — that stuff all went straight back to Russia.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0

  93. Scott says:

    @Rafer Janders: Along with the TVA.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  94. Barry says:

    @Habbit: “The United States federal government sucks. If people in individual states don’t want to be a part of the wealth sucking machine, they have every constitutional right to demand disengagement. ”

    One month without *us* subsidizing *you*, and you’d be begging to get back onto the teat.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  95. Barry says:

    @Brummagem Joe: “The irony of this is that all these Republican nut jobs seem to have lost sight of the fact that the first president from their party fought a great civil war that cost 700,000 lives in order to preserve the union. ”

    The first president of *their* party was Jefferson Davis.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  96. nightrider says:

    Nuttiness aside, it is interesting to wonder where the new political centers would be in each country. My guess is that soon enough each country would have its own red and blue, fighting over a different center than they do today, and hating each other over it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  97. Barry says:

    @JKB: You’re quoting Victor David Hanson?

    That’s a sure sign of detachment from reality.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  98. Just Me says:

    In case the South seceded, it wouldn’t get to keep any of the federal facilities and assets (including the military) currently based in the South — that would all be packed up and shipped back home.

    And just how is the new Northern States going to make them give it back.

    Given the fact that the south is almost 50% of the armed forces while is only about 1/3 of the US population.

    Seems like the Northern states are going to end up with a smaller military and a recruitment pool less interested in serving.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4

  99. Rafer Janders says:

    And just how is the new Northern States going to make them give it back.

    Um, it doesn’t have a military, while the United States of America does?

    Given the fact that the south is almost 50% of the armed forces while is only about 1/3 of the US population.

    Again, those armed forces belong to the United States of America.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  100. Rafer Janders says:

    @Just Me:

    Seems like the Northern states are going to end up with a smaller military and a recruitment pool less interested in serving.

    It’s not “the Northern states”. It’s the United States of America. And the United States of America owns every nuclear missile, aircraft carrier, nuclear submarine, long-range bomber, fighter jet, and tank in the country.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  101. Rafer Janders says:

    @Just Me:

    Seems like the Northern states are going to end up with a smaller military and a recruitment pool less interested in serving

    This reminded me of something….ah, yes, here it is:

    Mr. O’HARA: The situation is very simple. The Yankees can’t fight and we can.

    CHORUS: You’re right!

    MAN 1: That’s what I think! hey’ll just turn and run every time.

    MAN 2: One Southerner can lick twenty Yankees.

    MAN 3: We’ll finish them in one battle. Gentlemen can always fight better than cattle….

    RHETT BUTLER : I think it’s hard winning a war with words, gentlemen.

    CHARLES: What do you mean, sir?

    RHETT: I mean, Mr. Hamilton, there’s not a cannon factory in the whole South.

    MAN: What difference does that make, sir, to a gentleman?

    RHETT: I’m afraid it’s going to make a great deal of difference to a great many gentlemen, sir.

    CHARLES: Are you hinting, Mr. Butler, that the Yankees can lick us?

    RHETT: No, I’m not hinting. I’m saying very plainly that the Yankees are better equipped than we are. They’ve got factories, shipyards, coalmines…and a fleet to bottle up our harbors and starve us to death. All we’ve got is cotton, and slaves and…arrogance.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 1

  102. mantis says:

    Is anyone with a functioning neocortex advocating secession? Then it’s not a real thing, and probably not worth getting worked up over.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  103. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @Rafer Janders: You know all that stuff belong to the federal government, don’t you? In case the South seceded, it wouldn’t get to keep any of the federal facilities and assets (including the military) currently based in the South — that would all be packed up and shipped back home.

    Time for a bit of remedial education.

    Yes, the federal government could and would take what it could with it should this incredibly stupid secession actually happen. (Which it won’t, but it’s not my little fantasy trip — I’m just along for the giggles.) But there’s a lot of things they can’t take with them — namely, a lot of the physical facilities and resources. For example, you can move the planes and equipment out of an Air Force base, but you’re going to leave behind runways and buildings and infrastructure — in short, almost a “turnkey” air base — just add personnel, aircraft, equipment, and fuel.

    And as far as NASA goes… there were some very non-political reasons why it was established there. Reasons that have to do a great deal with physics. Proximity to the equator, very large bodies of water to the east and west, and decent climate, just to name a few.

    But (this pains me to say this) mantis — among others — has it right: this is a total non-story. It’s a very small number of people pushing for a totally impossible event.

    However, as stupid as those people are, those who are so condescendingly mocking them are almost as dumb.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 10

  104. Motopilot says:

    Just a little aside note here, but thinking back on that guy, Osama bin Laden… I seem to recall that he thought his actions might be able to provoke the U.S. into bankrupting itself, but I also recall that he thought he might be able to spark a separatist movement in the United States. Lofty goals.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  105. anjin-san says:

    Time for a bit of remedial education.

    That should keep you busy for quite a while. Come back and try again when you are better informed and have at least a tenuous grasp on reality.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  106. An Interested Party says:

    However, as stupid as those people are, those who are so condescendingly mocking them are almost as dumb.

    Using that logic, anyone (like JKB) who mocked liberals who talked about moving to Canada when Bush won are just as stupid…I wonder if Jenos made fun of those liberals…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  107. Rwolf says:

    Will Obama use NDAA To Arrest State Representatives and State Militias that support Secession?

    Could Obama use NDAA To Arrest Secessionists on the Premise members are Militants and Belligerents that pose a threat to National Security?

    Recently the Obama administration stated to Federal Judge Katherine Forest that under (NDAA) The National Defense Authorization Act of 2012 the President had authorization to lock up belligerents indefinitely. That they (were justified) to lock belligerents up indefinitely—because cases involving belligerents directly-aligned with militants against the good of America—warrants such punishment.) Pres. Obama could use NDAA provisions to order U.S. Military Forces to round up without evidence, millions of Americans including Secessionists and Militias by alleging they are belligerents or a threat to National Security. Many observers believe Obama intends to extend NDAA to imprison U.S. Citizens in Indefinite Detention not involved with or associated with enemy forces.

    Hitler included similar provisions in his fascist (Discriminatory Decrees signed February 28, 1933). Almost immediately after the German Parliament passed Hitler’s laws, the Reich Government ordered the arrest of German Citizens and confiscated their guns without probable cause or evidence; delegated powers to German Police and other authorities to arrest anyone Nazi authorities claimed attempted or incited public unrest: arrested among others were outspoken Germans, writers, journalists, peaceful protestors and artists. After World War II the East German Secret Police (Stasi) used the threat of Indefinite Detention to forcibly recruit thousands of informants.

    The U.S. 2012 NDAA legislation Obama signed 12-31-11 is similar to Hitler’s 1933 fascist laws the SS and Gestapo used to target persons in Germany for arrest, imprisonment and execution without probable cause; and confiscate millions of dollars of property. Hitler used his laws to suspend Parliament and the Supreme Court insuring his laws could not be rescinded.

    During the Obama Administration’s recent request for a (stay) to stop U.S. District Judge Katherine Forrest blocking enforcement of vague NDAA provisions, the Obama Administration—never clarified what constitutes a (belligerent); or militant; or what belligerent activities (directly aligned with a militant) to order a belligerent’s arrest or indefinite detention; or what is against the good of America. Under vague provisions of NDAA, the President could accuse anyone of being (directly aligned with militants by way of any political or other association; activity, statement, writing or communication with an individual or group government deemed (militant) to arrest and indefinitely detain Americans. Writers, journalists, Americans that disagree with or question U.S. Government or its allies—may under NDAA be subject to arrest and indefinite detention.

    NDAA 2012, like Hitler’s 1933 Discriminatory Decrees enforces censorship; refers to the Patriot Act e.g. warrant-less searches of private property and forfeiture of property from persons not charged with crime. Provisions in NDAA 2012 keep the door open for corrupt U.S. police; government agents and provocateurs which there are many, to falsify reports and statements to target any American, group or organization for arrest, indefinite detention, complete disappearance; civil asset forfeiture of their property.

    You may have noted NDAA referred to the USA Patriot Act. The Patriot Act lends itself to Government / police corruption; the Federal Government may use secret witnesses and informants to cause arrests and civil asset forfeiture of Americans’ property. Witness(s) and informants may be paid up to 50% of assets forfeited. Federal Government under 18USC may use a mere preponderance of civil evidence, little more than hearsay to Civilly Forfeit Private Property. Under the Patriot Act innocent property owners may be barred by government knowing the evidence federal government uses to forfeit their property.

    Sections of NDAA 2012 are so broad, it appears U.S. Government or the President could (retroactively) deem an American’s past 1st Amendment activities prior to passage of 2012 NDAA—supported hostilities, terrorism or (Belligerents) to order the arrest and Indefinite Detention of any U.S. Citizen, writer, group or organization.

    Under NDAA 2012 it should be expected that indefinitely detained U.S. Citizens not involved in terrorism or hostile activities, not given Miranda Warnings when interrogated, not allowed legal counsel or habeas corpus may be prosecuted for non-terrorist (ordinary crimes) because of their (alleged admissions) while held in Indefinite Detention.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3

  108. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @An Interested Party: Not quite the same. Individuals leaving the country for political reasons is stupid, but entirely plausible. But secession? That’s stupid to a whole new order of magnitude.

    But yeah, I found them entertaining. I recall a few people who wanted to raise funds to buy them their tickets.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  109. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    Cut and paste/spam alert: RWolf has plastered that particular psycho creed across, at last count, over 50 web sites. I am no big fan of deletions, but it seems to me that there are plenty of other places one can find those exact words.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  110. george says:

    @Rob in CT:

    Look, people get upset when they lose an election. You have to expect a certain amount of whining. Some liberals made noises about moving to Canada in 2004. And there was that map that somebody made up with the North/West + Canada as one country, and “Jesusland” as another.

    Unless somebody actually *does* something, it’s just venting.

    That sums it up very nicely.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  111. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @Rob in CT: This is nutpicking.

    This. I am SO stealing this neologism…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

  112. Rafer Janders says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    And as far as NASA goes… there were some very non-political reasons why it was established there. Reasons that have to do a great deal with physics. Proximity to the equator, very large bodies of water to the east and west, and decent climate, just to name a few.

    Which is why the Soviet Union never had a space program, because it lacked all those things.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  113. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @Rafer Janders: Dumbass. Florida made it easier, not possible. “Easier,” as in cheaper, safer, and simpler.

    Ask the cosmonauts how they felt about returning to earth on hard, dry land. Or ask people who were under the launch path and return path. Or look at how much more powerful the Soviet boosters had to be to launch from the higher latitudes.

    The Soviet space program was an exemplar of the entire Soviet approach to everything: brute force and total disregard for consequences overcoming reality.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 7

  114. Rafer Janders says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    For example, you can move the planes and equipment out of an Air Force base, but you’re going to leave behind runways and buildings and infrastructure — in short, almost a “turnkey” air base — just add personnel, aircraft, equipment, and fuel.

    That is hilarious in its naivete.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  115. JKB says:

    @Barry:

    You make a statement without offering any reasoning. How can we take you serious? Perhaps you’ll elaborate on why you thing VDH is not a good citation?

    Or how about this quote? Is is acceptable to you?

    “elections can undermine democracy, worsen divisions, trigger conflicts and fail to deliver improvements in the lives of people.” She went on to say that “our governments don’t respect the rule of law; and the judiciary is not always independent or neutral, leading to further conflict.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

  116. Rafer Janders says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    Which relates to your point…how, though? After all, it’s not like the US doesn’t have other areas such as Hawaii, California, etc. that are relatively close to the equator, have large bodies of water, decent climate, etc.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  117. Rob in CT says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    Go right ahead. It’s not like I came up with the term.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  118. legion says:

    Well, this should help: a petition to allow Canada to secede and form its own government… Only 16 signatures so far!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  119. mantis says:

    If even Rick Perry and Erick “Erick” Erickson aren’t on board with secession, it ain’t a real thing.

    With Texas secessionism back in the news, Perry is again declining to get on board.

    “Gov. Perry believes in the greatness of our Union and nothing should be done to change it,” Perry spokesperson Catherine Frazier said in a statement. “But he also shares the frustrations many Americans have with our federal government.”

    Meanwhile, over at RedState, Erickson isn’t having any of the secession talk either.

    “We here at RedState are American citizens. We have no plans to secede from the union,” he wrote on the site Tuesday. “If you do, good luck with that, but this is not the place for you.”

    But go ahead and keep claiming the nation’s assets for your side, fellas.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  120. Rafer Janders says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    The Soviet space program was an exemplar of the entire Soviet approach to everything: brute force and total disregard for consequences overcoming reality.

    I cannot think which current day American political party this reminds me of….

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  121. Whitfield says:

    “I’m going to Jackson, I’m going to mess around
    Yeah, I’m going to Jackson, look out Jackson town,
    …we’re going to Jackson, and ain’t never coming back”
    (June Carter, Johnny Cash)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  122. Wayne says:

    @Alex Knapp:
    Illegals residents in U.S. get power free healthcare, etc. Most of you don’t have a problem with that. So now you want to change the rules?

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  123. Wayne says:

    @C. Clavin:
    You don’t get to select. The above map would not represent what the end map would look like. Kansas and much of the middle territories would go with the South.

    It sounds like many are in agreement. If States want to leave the Union then they should be allowed to do so peacefully.

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  124. Wayne says:

    @DC Loser: Kentucky, Mississippi and Arkansas are much better places than New York City, Washington, DC, Los Angeles.
    To each their own. Maybe it time for everyone to go their separate ways.

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  125. mantis says:

    @Wayne:

    Don’t listen to some of these folks, Wayne. We will not let this union be rendered asunder by the likes of you.

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  126. legion says:

    @Wayne:

    If States want to leave the Union then they should be allowed to do so peacefully.

    It’s nice that you think that, but it’s never even really been on the table. The answer to “can I secede if I don’t like the guy who got elected” was well and truly settled by the Civil War. The question will not be reopened as anything other than a sad joke at the expense of people who call themselves “real Americans!”, but have failed to ever learn a single thing about American history.

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  127. Trucker Kev says:

    AFTER HEARING ALL THESE TRUCKSTOP POLITICIANS ON THE CB AND ENJOYING THIS THREAD OVER THE SUCCESSION JIBBERISH AND THE TOTAL LUDICROUSNESS OF THE WHOLE THING CUZ THE RIGHT ONCE AGAIN WAS NOT IN TUNE WITH THE SENSIBLE LEFT, I DID A RANDOM POLL AND ASKED 5 DRIVERS FOR SHITS AND GIGGLES IF THEY MADE LESS MONEY IN LAST 4 YRS. IF THEY ARE OUT ON THE STREETS AND ON WELFARE OR IF THEY LIKE MANY ON BOTH SIDES ARE GETTING BY. THEY SAID YES GETTING BY OK. I SAID WHY DO YA WANT TO SECEDE THEN? NO RESPONSE. LOL.

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  128. Trucker Kev says:

    Since I have not ran Canada for a few years made me wonder if when I went home to Chi Town if I would have to renew my passport to truck into this newly formed country they speak of. LMAO. Keep the shiny side up time for bed.

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  129. steve s says:

    Have fun sticking up for your future third world environment, you “progressives.”

    This is especially funny because the south would pretty much instantly turn into a 3rd world country.

    The single biggest difference between a first world country and a third world country is that the first world country creates a middle class through redistribution. Middle classes don’t just happen on their own. Big gummint spending helped create the american middle class, and 30 years ago we reversed course, and the middle class has been stagnant/shrinking ever since.

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  130. al-Ameda says:

    @Just Me:

    I mostly view threats of secession with the idiot liberals who threaten to move to Canada if their candidate doesn’t win. Problem for conservatives is they don’t really have a country they can threaten to move to, so they fantasize about seceding.

    What do you have against Vancouver or Toronto?

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  131. mattb says:

    @mantis:

    Meanwhile, over at RedState, Erickson isn’t having any of the secession talk either.

    “We here at RedState are American citizens. We have no plans to secede from the union,” [Erik Erickson] wrote on the site Tuesday. “If you do, good luck with that, but this is not the place for you.”

    Kudos to Erickson.

    While I realize that its mainly “blowing off steam”, the number of rank and file conservatives who seem to be celebrating these petitions is somewhat astounding to me. I can think of few less conservative or patriotic things than celebrating or supporting calls for secession — protest or not.

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  132. Andre Kenji says:

    There is a missing point here. A state like New York or California benefits from a lot of things from the other so called red states. And vice-versa. The Northeast Corridor has electricity because there of the Appalachia. You can drive directly to the Pacific Coast from New York, there is the whole issue of trade.

    You can look at Latin America. Bolivia is a poor country with large natural gas reserves. It could be a very important state or province inside a bigger country, not one of the poorest countries in the Western Hemisphere(Compare Bolivia with North Dakota). An independent Texas or a Independent Confederate States of America would be a enormous problem.

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  133. Ajaxxxxxxx says:

    The banter of secession from the Union is ridiculous. If you recall, we fought a war over this issue from 1861 to 1865. However, consider the following as a constitutional alternative to unravelling the status quo: At present, the U.S. has several Territories to include Guam, Puerto Rico, CNMI, USVI and American Samoa. The residents are U.S. citizens and they do not pay federal income tax. However, as collective dependents of the U.S., they receive hundreds of millions of dollars each year in goodies to include food stamps, HUD Housing, subsidized U.S. Postal Service etc., from Uncle Sam. In exchange, they are not allowed to vote in the Presidential election and they do not have U.S. Senators. However, each territory is allowed one non-voting representative in the U.S. House of Representatives. This person is selected by the territorial Governor. What if the red states decided that they no longer want to be States and opted to reverting back to being U.S. Territories? The blue states would get the luxury of supporting these Territories with goodies through their taxes. Since the residents of blue states claim to have a monopoly on compassion, they shouldn’t have a problem with their financial support of the Territories. Thus, the argument is that the red states aren’t seceding from the Union, they are opting to becoming dependent’s of the Union. Problem solved. Everyone is happy.

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  134. Mike T says:

    I’m a Republican in a Blue State, I did not vote for Obama either time but at the end of the day he won the election and is the President of this country. this talk of Secession is ridiculous. I think the GOP needs to reform its ideologies on certain issues such as women’s rights and same sex marriage to name a few. I still support the voter i.d. measure and smaller Government. Instead of running away from the issue the people in question should put pressure on their GOP representatives to implement this change. After all “we the people” put them there, they work for us, we don’t work for them. Like it or not the Democratic Party got their act together during the Bush years and rebounded. I don’t know what the outcome will be over the next 4 years but i love my country, I served as a U.S. Marine and continue to serve my community everyday as a Police Officer. This still is the greatest country in the world and still a great place to live ,work and raise a family. just my opinion.

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  135. Ok. So lets say secession is granted. The union pulls out all army, navy, air force, marines, national guard, coast guard and empties and destroys all munitions and munitions factories. Don’t forget. Comercial aircraft, boats and barges’ ships, tele-comunications and everything else government ran would be halted. Dont worry. Your new i-phone will make a great paper weight. Then halts all U.S. imports of all goods to those states. Then builds a fence around you so you ain’t exporting a damned thing. Hey, you ain’t with us then you’re against us. How are they gonna make a stand. You’re free range now. You’ll be speaking japanese or russian or german or something inside of two years or less.Secession would cost your state way too much capital and more than likely bankrupt your state. No country is likely to stand by and wait for you to build your independence or your economy. I’m sure Mexico would bleed dry at the chance to regain Texas.
    Then theres this. Even though secession will never happen any governer or senator who supports this idea has totally wiped out any possible chance of becomming president of the U.S.A. Do they think they’ll be voted into office by a country they did’nt want to belong to before they chose to run for presidential office?
    Oh wait. You’ll already be bankrupt since what money your new country already has will be useless to you. E. pluribus unim, el mono. That money belongs to the U.S.A. No more food stamps, education, unemployment insurance, or electricity. You will all starve to death before the next year ends. You ain’t comming over here. You and your family are now illiegal aliens. And you’re definately not going to start up your own militia. What you going to use? Sticks and rocks? And even if the capital was there to suport a militia none of you are going to put down your phones, and step away from your p.c.’s, t.v.’s, and video games long enough to even attempt to make a stand. Now, i gotta ask. Are you sure you really want to do this? Don’t look so good when you eyeball the big picture dose it?
    But then again what do I know? I’m just a dumb hillbilly lives up in the rocks. Don’t even get daylight here till10:00 a.m.

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