Eleven Dallas Police Officers Shot, Five Dead, In Ambush At Protest
A horrific night in Dallas.
Eleven Dallas Police Officers were shot and five killed in Dallas overnight in the middle of what was an otherwise peaceful protest over the recent police-involved shootings in Baton Rouge and Minnesota:
At least five Dallas law enforcement officers were killed and six wounded Thursday evening as a protest over recent police shootings was interrupted by chaos.
After a peaceful march, the downtown suddenly exploded into violence at around 9 p.m. local time when gunshots echoed across through the streets, sending protesters and police officers alike scattering for cover.
Four Dallas Police officers and one Dallas Area Rapid Transit officer were killed by “snipers” perched atop “elevated positions,” officials said. At least one civilian was also injured.
Videos circulating on social media showed an individual with an assault-style rifle shoot a police officer in the back at point-blank range.
A gunman, believed to be the same shooter, then engaged in a violent, three-hour standoff with SWAT officers before dying at around 3 a.m. local time, CNN reported, citing police. Police had yet to explain how he died.
Three other suspects were also in custody, Dallas Police Chief David Brown said during a press conference before the standoff’s end. He said police were also investigating a suspicious package left near the site of the shootings.
“The suspect that we are in negotiation with that has exchanged gunfire with us over the last 45 minutes has told our negotiators that ‘The end is coming’ and he is going to hurt and kill more of us, meaning law enforcement, and that there are bombs all over the place in this garage and downtown,” Brown said.
During the press conference, Brown said he wasn’t sure if there were more suspects at large. “We still don’t have a complete comfort level that we have all the suspects,” he said.
The police chief said he was also unsure of the motive for the mass shooting, which was the worst attack on law enforcement since 9/11.
Brown said he believed the four suspects were “working together with rifles triangulated at elevated positions at different points in the downtown area, where the march ended up going.”
He said it was unclear if the suspects were somehow connected to the protest, but added that detectives were investigating that possibility.
At a press conference from Warsaw, Poland, Friday morning, President Obama called the attack “vicious, calculated and despicable.”
“I believe I speak for every single American when I say we are horrified over these events,” Obama said.
He called on Americans to “profess our profound gratitude to the men and women in blue” and to remember the victims, in particular.
“Today, our focus is on the victims and their families, Obama said. “They are heartbroken. The entire city of Dallas is grieving. Police across America, a tight-knit family, feels this loss to their core.”
On a night that began with a protest criticizing police, the chief praised the heroism of his officers.
“I’ve never been more proud of [being] a police officer and being a part of this great, noble profession, seeing the courage, the professionalism and just grit to stay on scene, looking for suspects, knowing that we are vulnerable,” he said during the press conference. Brown said officers had run toward gunfire to help one another and civilians.
Several people said officers helped save them, including one man who said an officer pushed him out of the way as shooting began. Bystanders captured footage of cops dragging fallen comrades out of the line of fire. Cameras also captured police officers choking back tears for their fallen colleagues. One officer appeared to brace himself against his SUV as grief overcame him.
“So many stories of great courage,” Brown said.
Mayor Mike Rawlings called the loss of the officers “heartbreaking” and called for unity.
“We as a city, we as a country, must come together and lock arms and heal the wounds we all feel,” he said.
As dusk settled over the city, bullets suddenly began flying, the crack of high-powered ammunition cannoning off of skyscrapers and across downtown Dallas.
Terrified protesters scattered in all directions as startled cops gazed up in search of the origin of the shots.
Lynn Mays said he was standing on Lamar Street when the shooting began.
“All of a sudden we started hearing gunshots out of nowhere,” he told the Dallas Morning News. “At first we couldn’t identify it because we weren’t expecting it, then we started hearing more, rapid fire. One police officer who was standing there pushed me out the way because it was coming our direction … next thing you know we heard ‘officer down.'”
Undercover and uniformed police officers started running around the corner and “froze,” Mays said. “Police officers started shooting in one direction, and whoever was shooting started shooting back.
“And that’s where the war began.”
The shooting appears to have been heaviest around El Centro College, near Market and Main Street.
Protesters who had come to speak out against violence by police now suddenly found themselves in the crosshairs of violence apparently aimed at police.
Renee Sifflet, a mother of three teenagers who attended the rally and march, said she lost track of one of her children during the ensuing chaos.
“I brought them here for a positive experience, something they could say they were part of when they’re older, ” she told the Dallas Morning News. “Then it turned negative.”
In perhaps the most shocking footage to emerge on the horrific and highly televised night, a gunman was filmed sneaking up behind a police officer and shooting the cop several times in the back at point-blank range. It is unclear if the officer survived.
“It looked like an execution honestly,” Ismael DeJesus, who took the video from an apartment building, told CNN. DeJesus said he thought the gunman, who carried an assault-style rifle, was wearing body armor as he appeared to get shot and keep going.
The gunman then holed up inside of El Centro’s garage, according to police. Dozens of cop cars surrounded the building as officers crouched behind their vehicles.
As he engaged in a shootout with officers, police took three other suspects into custody.
Two suspects were seen climbing into a black Mercedes with a camouflage bag before speeding off. They were apprehended in the Oak Cliff area, a suburb of Dallas.
The third suspect, a woman, was taken into custody near the El Centro garage.
Chief Brown said the three suspects were being interrogated but, as of 12:30 a.m. local time, had not provided information on the motive behind the brazen attack.
Even as Brown spoke to reporters, the fourth suspect was engaged in a standoff with police.
At around 1:26 a.m., there was “a loud boom and what sounded like shattering glass” near El Centro, according to Dallas Morning News reporter Robert Wilonsky.
At around 4 a.m. local time, CNN reported that the gunman holed up inside El Centro was dead. Details of his death remained murky Friday morning.
More from The New York Times:
DALLAS — Five Dallas police officers were killed and six others were wounded by snipers Thursday night during a demonstration protesting shootings by officers in Minnesota and Louisiana this week, the authorities said.
The police say they believe four people coordinated the attack with rifles, Police Chief David O. Brown said, and positioned themselves in triangulated locations near the end of the route the protesters planned to take. The police had three people in custody and were negotiating in the early-morning hours with a fourth, who was in a garage in downtown Dallas at El Centro, a community college.
That suspect had exchanged gunfire with the police and was being uncooperative in talks, Chief Brown said at a news conference in the lobby of City Hall.
The suspect “has told our negotiators that the end is coming and he’s going to hurt and kill more of us, meaning law enforcement, and that there are bombs all over the place in this garage and downtown,” Chief Brown said.
“We are being very careful in our tactics so that we don’t injure or put any of our officers in harm’s way, including the citizens of Dallas, as we negotiate further,” he added.
The three other suspects are a woman who was taken from the garage and two others who were taken in for questioning after a traffic stop.
President Obama, addressing reporters at a meeting with European leaders in Warsaw after speaking by phone with Mayor Mike Rawlings of Dallas, said that while much remains unclear, “what we do know is that there has been a vicious, calculated and despicable attack on law enforcement.”
Mr. Obama went on: “Police in Dallas were on duty doing their jobs, keeping people safe, during peaceful protests. These law enforcement officers were targeted, and nearly a dozen officers were shot. Five were killed. Other officers, and at least one civilian, were wounded. Some are in serious condition and we are praying or their recovery.”
Mr. Obama, who only a day earlier spoke about the grisly shootings by police officers of black men in Louisiana and Minnesota, said that anger about racial disparities in criminal justice was no grounds for violence. “We will learn more undoubtedly about their twisted motivations, but let’s be clear: There’s no possible justification for these kinds of attacks, or any violence against law enforcement,” he said.
Mr. Obama, who only a day earlier spoke about the grisly shootings by police officers of black men in Louisiana and Minnesota, said that anger about racial disparities in criminal justice was no grounds for violence. “We will learn more undoubtedly about their twisted motivations, but let’s be clear: There’s no possible justification for these kinds of attacks, or any violence against law enforcement,” he said.
He added: “Our police have an extraordinarily difficult job, and the vast majority of them do their job in outstanding fashion.” He said that Thursday night’s attack was “a wrenching reminder of the sacrifices that they make for us.”
Chief Brown said the suspects in custody were not providing investigators with many details. “We just are not getting the cooperation we’d like, to know that answer of why, the motivation, who they are,” he said.
The shooting had been carried out by snipers who fired down on a demonstration in the city’s downtown area that until that point had been peaceful, the chief said.
They “planned to injure and kill as many law enforcement officers as they could,” Chief Brown said.
“Some were shot in the back,” the chief said. “We believe that these suspects were positioning themselves in a way to triangulate on these officers.”
Maj. Max Geron of the Dallas Police Department said that the city’s downtown was being swept for explosives, a process that would “take quite a while.”
The police said that four of the dead were Dallas police officers and that one was from the Dallas Area Rapid Transit force. The transit agency identified him as Brent Thompson, 43. He joined in 2009 and was the first DART officer to be killed in the line of duty.
A civilian in the crowd of almost 1,000 people was also wounded.
The police were also combing downtown Dallas for what they believed was a bomb planted by the snipers as the heart of the country’s ninth-largest city was put on lockdown.
The chief said he had contacted the F.B.I. and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives for help in the investigation.
Chief Brown said that he was not confident that the police had apprehended everyone involved in the shooting, and that a rigorous investigation would continue until “we are confident that all suspects have been captured.”
“I can just tell you I’ve never been more proud of being a police officer and being a part of this noble profession,” he said.
The shooting unfolded near one of the busiest parts of the city’s downtown, filled with hotels and restaurants as well as Dallas County government buildings. Videos of the scene circulated widely on social media. In many of them, gunshots could be heard ringing out against a city illuminated by flashing police lights. Teams of armed officers could be seen running through the area.
Although the shooting occurred during a rally to protest police-involved shootings, it was unclear what relationship the gunmen had to the demonstration.
It was unknown what the motives were, “except they fired on the police,” said Clay Jenkins, the Dallas County judge and the county’s chief executive. “All government buildings in that area are on lockdown. That’s the government center where this is happening.”
Chief Brown said it was too early in the investigation to say whether there was any connection between the shooters and the demonstration. He suggested that those involved had some knowledge of the march route.
“How would you know to post up there?” he said. “So we’re leaving every motive on the table of how this happened and why this happened.” He added, “We have yet to determine whether or not there was some complicity with the planning of this, but we will be pursuing that.”
There are several videos being distributed on social media depicting last night’s events, of course, but this is perhaps the most chilling. It depicts one of the suspects essentially stalking an officer and shooting him/her at point blank range before retreating into a parking garage:
It’s still very early in the investigation, of course, and at this point we don’t even know the names of the people who are in custody and suspected of being involved in the shootings, never mind what their motive may have been. That being said, given the way that this unfolded it’s hard not to jump to the conclusion that this attack was pre-planned in at least some sense of that word given the methodical manner in which the attacks were carried out, the fact that the shooters were able to single out police officers even from a substantial distance. Additionally, the video above seems to depict someone in body armor acting rather professionally in stalking and eventually killing one final officer before retreating into the parking garage. Notwithstanding the fact that there’s obviously no way that these people could have known there would be a large gathering of civilians and police officers in downtown Dallas at night, and that they would proceed along a route that would make it easy to fire at them from elevated positions, this suggests a level of pre-planning or training that belies the idea that this is an idea that they camp up with in the last several days. It’s also unclear if there were others involved who may have assisted the shooters in some way, or if the shooters were in communication with each other either via cell phones or some other form of wireless communication.
More to come as the day passes, I’m sure.
Update: Police have identified the suspect killed during the standoff:
Multiple media outlets have identified one of the suspects in Thursday night’s deadly ambush-style shooting of at least five Dallas police officers.
Citing police sources, CBS News and the Los Angeles Times said that Micah Johnson is one of the people responsible for the sniper attack, which also injured seven other police officers and two civilians. USA Today also reported Johnson as the suspect.
Johnson reportedly revealed all of this when police talked to him during the early hours of the morning while he was barricaded in the parking garage. He also apparently claimed at that time that he acted alone, but police are still interrogating three other suspects and have not confirmed that aspect of Johnson’s statement, which of course could have been a ruse to give any co-conspirators time to escape the area since Johnson was apparently unaware of the other suspects having been taken into custody. It could be true that Johnson acted alone, of course, but police won’t confirm that until they’re absolutely sure.
Horrific is indeed an apt description.
Things to keep in mind: Dallas PD has been a leader in improving its approach to community policing and has had real tangible successes and results.
The protesters and police in Dallas were interacting very well during the first 2 hours of the protest – check out the Dallas PD twitter for several pictures: https://twitter.com/MattSmethurst/status/751284011205468160
Reports are that protesters helped identify and track the suspects.
Policing without a police state only works because the authority of a cop is accepted even without overwhelming force behind it in every instance. Once that authority is lost, for whatever reason, it comes down to brute force. And there’s no way that 1% LEO can control a population; they can make massive shows of force, but they lose the ability to act efficiently on a one to one basis. We might end up living in interesting times.
Waking up to another American nightmare. Four suspects? Snipers? Bombs? WTF.
Jack, call your office.
Get your posts in now before Jenos hijacks the thread.
But “an armed society is a polite society”, no? Maybe at last we’ll put that pernicious fallacy to rest.
Those poor people. R.I.P.
This is the world that the NRA and it’s dupes, Jenos JKB et al, want to see.
How we got to a point where the psychopaths get to have the fwcked up world they want is beyond me.
I’m in my office.
No. This is not what the NRA wants to see. The NRA support legal armed individuals.
This would be like saying that planned parenthood wanted a Kermit Gosnell.
You are truly a crazed individual.
We have said this before: in the first 24 hours, about 50% of what you read and see will turn out to be untrue. WAIT WAIT WAIT for confirmed information.
We have no reason to believe at this time that these snipers didn’t obtain their high powered military grade weapons legally.
Wayne LaPierre says the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Last night, several good guys – all with guns – were killed by bad guys able to use whatever the f*ck assault weapons they wanted.
This is because the NRA wants it to be so.
No…the NRA wants, and actively works, to ensure that every nutcase has access to high powered weaponry.
The NRA wants everyone armed…so that shootouts are common place and downtown Dallas looks like the wild west.
Firefights in dark theaters. In dark nightclubs.
This is the world the NRA wants.
It would be if PP spent millions and lobbied Congress endlessly to make sure that a Kermit Gosnell had full and ready access to what he needed to commit mass murder.
PP doesn’t do that.
The NRA does.
Your completely off-base analogy makes me think you aren’t very bright.
@Scott F: @Scott F:
Wow, look at that…a liberal screaming “Look at the NRA!” At least try to be original. Put some thought into it. Wait, I did say you are a liberal, so disregard.
Yeah, conservative NRA types are all to blame but it’s funny how all the shooters are Democrats.
Yet no one will admit the role that the rhetoric Obama, Clinton, BLM, etc., has played in starting what is obviously a war on Law Enforcement. No one will admit how their race baiting has led to race relations going backwards by 50 years. Nor will they admit that their divisive tactics are tearing the country apart and that their manipulations are now costing people their lives…all because they want to stay in power.
Liberals are the anarchists.
@C. Clavin: You have truly gone off the deep end and you need to be committed to a mental institution immediately.
That is exactly what PP did and continues to do. PP doesn’t care about the lives of women, they just want complete and unlimited access to abortion.
The Tea Baggers are losing it…
Many thanks for reminding us that the scofflaw anarchists are white people like the Bundy’s.
Meantime we added 287,000 jobs in June.
76 straight months of private sector job growth under our socialist President.
@C. Clavin: The liberals are loosing it…
Yes. I’ve been reading the reports about the Dallas P.D.’s ongoing effort to foster a better relationship with the black community, and it seems to have been working.
I also read that some of the officers detailed to the march had expressed their sympathy about the shootings in Baton Rouge and Minneapolis to the protesters.
I see lefties justifying killing cops. I see righties calling for race war and blaming BLM. I see anti-police brutality rhetoric portrayed as pure anti-cop rhetoric. I see everyone blaming the guns, the cops, the left, the right, the President, ISIS, militias, Rush Limbaugh…
Has everyone lost their damned minds? Can we all maybe shut the fark up for a little while and process what is happening? I understand that scoring political points on the internet is the most important thing in the world, but Jesus Christ.
You’re foaming at the mouth, Jack. Never a good sign that you’re winning the argument.
I didn’t mention anything about liberal or conservative. Didn’t claim justification or point to Trump fantasizing about the victims shooting back in Orlando. (The victims shot back in Dallas BTW and there are still 5 dead.)
No. I merely state the fact – backed by years of lobbying and legal briefs – that the NRA wants anyone to be able to legally obtain high powered military grade firearms with minimum delay and with minimum inconvenience. Are you claiming that’s not want the NRA wants?
Now, I understand you want only legally armed individuals. But, without any of the controls that the NRA has fought against so relentlessly over the last few decades, you’re not going to get ONLY legally armed individuals. If everybody gets a gun – any gun – everybody gets any gun.
You either want these legal conditions or you don’t. You don’t get to wish that these legal conditions would just work out better.
And the evidence to prove that…
Ohhhhh, so it is the fault of Obama, Clinton, and BLM that so many cops in so many different places continue to shoot and kill black men…
Yes, I am claiming that is not what the NRA wants.
The NRA is a protector of the 2nd Amendment, and a firearms education organization. The NRA does not want anyone to get access to firearms, military grade or otherwise.
If racism is our original sin, then guns are our hereditary illness. Both are sicknesses that must be eradicated.
Let’s be honest, this shit has been coming for a long time. I thought it would be the other way round to tell the truth, a white supremacy group shooting up a black lives matter march. Either way, the danger now is the fire spreads and spirals out of control. With a media like we have, the flames are sure to be fanned and, as day follows night, the crazy politicians will be out in force making sure those they hate pay for what they themselves have created. And we haven’t heard from the man himself, yet. I’m guessing there’s a safe room somewhere with Donald Trump tied to a chair and guarded by five of Manafort goons holding him down. Sad.
@Jack: “No. This is not what the NRA wants to see. The NRA support legal armed individuals.”
Less’n they be non- uh, Heartland American.
@An Interested Party:
This particular post is discussing the killing of police officers in Dallas. Yes, Obama, Clinton, and BLM are at fault.
Please, keep up or shut up.
@C. Clavin: so how many nra members go on killing sprees annually? face it, most killings are done by “non-republicans”- that’s a nice way of saying something else….
just imagine of it was white christian guys shooting up the place- way different headlines.
still, what kind of idiot(s) shoot cops who had nothing to do with their rage?
the people who will suffer after this will be the ones that actually need the cops. i hope they have guns, first aid kits and fire extinguishers as nobody will hurry to their part of town.
I could care less their color, creed, sex, age, disability, national origin, sexual persuasion, or any other group that liberals use to divide us. If you are law abiding and wish to protect you and yours, you have the right to own, possess, and carry a firearm.
So, suck it.
Assholes with guns are who are to blame. Not well adjusted, responsible people with guns.
In all these cases, TX, LA, MN, and every where else in the nation.
That is the only finger I will be pointing.
The attacks in TX were planned, and if I had to guess had little to do with the murders by the cops a few days ago. Maybe, the murders by police officers in the media just added fuel to the fire. I do not know. No one does. Other than the assholes with the guns.
Robert Lewis Deal
Wade Michael Page
One L. Goh
You were saying…..?
For which assertion you have zero evidence – particularly as the shooter thatw as killed allegedly told the Cops that he was angry at police, white people and BLM.@Jack:
Except the NRA doesn’t believe that. If they did, they would have put out a statement about Chilcotte who was legally carrying and was following police instructions and, despite being asked repeatedly, chose not to.
Go away, Jack. Your bigotry is misplaced and unwelcome on such a day.
@CB: @CB: “I see lefties justifying killing cops. ”
I’m sure that you believe that.
You caught that also huh.
I was going to say something, but I’m so tired of these guys, they always have to find some way to blame both sides.
@SKI: If I was a bigot, I would have sided with the officers in the Sterling and Castile cases. I did not.
Don’t project your biases onto me.
Hey guy, if you’ve paid any attention to any of my posts here over the last 10 years, you’d know I generally side with the prevailing CW around these parts. But I have seen a good number of lefties on the major progressive blogs with reactions ranging from “This is horrible, but…” to “Good, all cops are bad cops, F ’em.” So do I believe you, or my lying eyes?
@CB: Links? Because I’ve seen exactly ZERO of such sentiments on from authors on numerous progressive sites. Note, random internet commentators do NOT count – otherwise we can call all conservatives flaming racists.
You don’t know that. Jesus, Jack – stop and think about this.
For all you know, the snipers were trying to pull a Manson and start a race war by pinning their crimes on BLM. Considering the amount of planning that would need to go into something like this (scouting rooftop sites, triangulating a kill zone), this was thought out and the protest was planned… what 24hrs ago? This really feels like someone taking advantage of a planned route to their own ends. Is this a typical parade/protest route for the city? Would cops normally be stationed where they were for another venue of this type? It could very well be they planned for a latter attack and decided to move it up with this recent protest. If shooting cops was the point, then they wouldn’t care if it was Pride, BLM or the 4th of July parade.
BLM is not known for their sniping skills or their weaponry prowess in general. How this is their fault, let alone Clinton and Obama, is taking this straight to a blame game that the shooter want you to play. It makes little sense of the face of it to blame BLM at this point based on the known facts others then you feel they are “agitators” or “acting out”.
To be clear, I didn’t say BLM were the perpetrators of the killings. I was blaming their rhetoric.
We can all be upset about another needless shooting by a police officer without having to take it to the level of rhetoric that BLM spews.
What rhetoric? What did they say earlier this week that would incite this?
I follow several of their leading activists on twitter and saw no incitement towards violence.
They certainly didn’t in Dallas as they were working very well with the Dallas PD.
Criticizing police brutality/racism != calls to kill cops.
Frankly, I was referring to commenters. Not a majority, or even close, but the sentiment is out there. I’m not indicting the left or BLM, like one of our, um, esteemed peers here. I’m indicting people who say stupid shit in the wake of tragedies.
@SKI: I agree that the Dallas police were well on their way to a great community relationship and were a very transparent department.
As to BLM rhetoric, do you deny that it is race based and anti-police?
How often is conservative rhetoric blamed for Abortion clinic killings?
One standard, that’s all I ask.
The NRA, and other gun industry tools, does everything they can to ensure that nut jobs have unfettered access to killing machines.
@Jack: “If I was a bigot, I would have sided with the officers in the Sterling and Castile cases.”
Unless, by some shocking twist of fate, you were a bigot whose hatred and fear of minorities is matched or exceeded only by his hatred and fear of police.
Some shocking twist of fate or, you know, every message you’ve ever posted here.
There really is no need for you to be a douchebag as well as a liar…the president, Mrs. Clinton, and the Black Lives Matter movement bear no responsibility for what some awful people did in Dallas…perhaps you should calm down and caress one of your numerous guns…maybe that will make you feel better…
@Jack: Here is what BLM actually says:
As for your quote of ““WHAT DO WE WANT? PIGS IN A BLANKET!!!””, context matters. And a single chant from 10 months ago doesn’t equate to tarring an entire movement.
The entire conservative movement is not responsible for the murder of abortion providers. But the rabid anti-abortion groups that target those doctors and put out their pictures and addresses are. – particularly when we can tie the killers directly to those groups. How about you hold the BLM movement to that standard? The killer reportedly was angry at BLM as well as white cops – and stated he was acting alone (He was an army vet and still in the reserves which explains the tactical sophistication).
So are you saying that conservative rhetoric is to blame for abortion clinic killings?
Unlike most here I’ve gone through the aftermath of attacks on the government once before. In the late 70s West Germany was in the grip of a terror wave, aimed at getting the government to overreact, institute a police state, and such trigger the world revolution 2.0. And they got their wish, the government outlawed guns, police with machine guns everywhere, just like they predicted.
And then it turned out the people liked it. What’s restrictions on speech, it doesn’t affect me, I don’t hate anyone. Restrictions on joining the civil service based on my alleged unfaithfulness to the constitution, not me! Prosecuting that TV guy for making fun of Erdogan, that’s right, can’t have that.
And if you’re a progressive and that all doesn’t sound too bad to you – they also voted in right wing governments for all but 8 of the last 33 years. You might get your gun control – Trump stile.
The right-wingers keep telling us that the Second Amendment allows The People to protect themselves from the Evil Guvmint when it attacks them.
Judging from the responses of the right-wing Second Amendment Distortion Brigade, The People must not be black.
@An Interested Party: Let me guess…
You are one of the sphincters that felt Sarah Palin was at fault for the Gabby Gifford shooting because she was a “target” to be voted out of office.
Again, if rhetoric counts, count all the rhetoric. Obama, Clinton, and BLM rhetoric that causes Americans to divide by race is the fuel these people used to light the fire last night in Dallas.
I’m against unwarranted police shootings as the next guy. Hell, people have called me anti-cop. But wanting unwarranted police shootings to stop and calling for the death of cops are two different things.
Are you seriously equating the assignation of police officers in the line of duty to self protection?
You know there are trees out there that produce oxygen so you can breath? You owe those trees an apology.
It’s time to line up for your thorazine shots.
I call this factual assertion complete and total fantasy and bullcrap. Link to the supposedly divisive statements of Obama or Clinton (or BLM itself, not some random chant/commentator).
@SKI: Every word out of their mouths.
Translation: “I’ve got nothing but my own fantasies.”
1) Rhetoric? What we have now is video proof of what black people have been saying for a long, long time, and guys like you have been denying for a long, long time: Cops are way too quick on the trigger when facing a black male.
2) The Dallas murders were made possible by a high powered, large-magazine gun that has no purpose in hunting or in self-defense, but which people like you are determined to put into the hands of every hothead in the country. You and the NRA armed this shooter.
3) Explain again how all you need to deal with a bad man and a gun is a good man and a gun. Because four good men with guns are dead. They are dead because a nut got a gun, which is exactly what you fight for: nuts with guns.
4) The two black men killed in the last few days quite likely died because in addition to being black, they were legally armed. They died because they were black with a gun. You and the NRA are responsible for Part 2 of that equation.
In fact, Jack, all your bullshit has been blown away (heh). All your little fantasies, all your idiot rationalizations. Your belief system is exposed as utter nonsense. All it takes, you see, is one man with a gun and all the good men with guns couldn’t do a damn thing but blow him up with a robot-carried bomb.
And you, Jack, you and your little death cult put that assault rifle and those bullets in that killer’s hands. Same as you put guns in the hands of children. Same as you put guns in the hands of wife-beaters. Same as you put guns in the hands of terrorists.
You are the problem, Jack.
@Jack: Add failed psychic to your other duties as a douchebag and a liar…you certainly are multitasking today while stroking your guns…
@SKI: “Translation: “I’ve got nothing but my own fantasies.”
And guns. Lots and lots of guns.
The police are the foot soldiers of the state. If The People believe that the state is oppressing them, then who else are they supposed to shoot at?
You know what that Jefferson dude said: “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” Some of The People think that tyrants drive Crown Victorias through their neighborhoods.
Gee whiz, I’m starting to think that Jefferson may have screwed up and that the federalists had a point — this armed rebellion stuff is kind of nasty and ain’t all that it’s cracked up to be. Perhaps we should acknowledge that Jefferson had a gift for hype, and we should use ballot boxes instead of bullets to overthrow the government (which incidentally means that we shouldn’t use “voter ID” laws to prevent the People from overthrowing that government peaceably.)
It appears that at least one of the shooters (the dead one) was a “Black Power activist” who expressed his desire to kill white people.
Again, it’s too early to make real judgments, so keep on blaming the NRA, Republicans, conservatives, and racists. If the facts turn out to be inconvenient for the left’s narrative, it can be quietly buried later.
@bill: Dylan Roof was a Democrat? Robert Dears? Eric Frein?
1) No. I have not been denying it. Read my post from last night on the other thread.
2) No. They were made possible because someone want to kill police officers. The tool did nothing on its own.
3) I do not fight for nuts with guns. I hold a position that lawful gun ownership is a right. See that word there, lawful? It has meaning to everyone that is not a liberal. What happened last night was not lawful use of a firearm.
4) For clarification…One man died because he was legally armed. The other was a felon in illegal possession of a firearm. That’s not justification for his death and I have already said that the police were too quick to escalate to violence in both murders. Notice I said murders. I believe, based upon known information, both men were murdered by the police.
You, you are a dildo Michael. You are a dildo.
@Pch101: So, you are advocating the assassination of police. Nice to know.
You are a waste of life and liberty is wasted upon you. You should be arrested and put under the jail for your call for violence against all police officers.
You can add illiteracy to your list of accomplishments.
Aside from an astounding lack of reading comprehension and an equal amount of bile, what exactly do you contribute to the world?
3 of the 4 shooters were taken into custody alive by those horrible racist cops despite all the bullshit rhetoric spewed by all the racist, cop haters from BLM.
Ooops, this doesn’t fit the narrative so therefore it doesn’t count.
@Pch101: Don’t you have more important things like getting an old woman, that routinely refers to black people as niqqers, elected?
Let me know when you come across a “fact” demonstrating that the shooter did NOT have an assault rifle which he would only have had due to the tireless work of the NRA and gun cultists like you.
@CB: To people who have lived through the civil rights era, and even to people who have lived through Vietnam protests, it is a statement of fact to say that as civil society breaks down – and the killing of black men by police officers is a breakdown of civil society – there will be chaos and violence (check with France ca. 1789). That does not mean it’s correct, or that it’s desirable, or that anyone noting this fact is calling for the deaths of police officers (or the deaths of criminals in possession of an illegal firearm without due process, or the deaths of law abiding citizens with jobs and in legal possession of a firearm pulled over for a “broken taillight”). It means that some commenters may be noting that as the rules of order and civilization break down, chaos follows.
Oh, you are unfair! Jack does a lot. Like working without let-up to ensure that everyone in this country who wants to murder cops has an assault rifle to do it with.
@michael reynolds: I’ve already said, on another thread, that I thought that I heard fully automatic weapons fire, which would qualify as an “assault rifle.”
Which is already illegal. If it was capable of fully automatic fire or burst fire, it’s illegal.
Unless it was the cops firing the automatic weapon. Which they are legally allowed to have.
Why don’t we wait and get some facts instead of bullshitting? Or, at least, acknowledge that we’re speculating instead of going off on rants?
Oh, yeah… sorry, I forgot. My bad. Go back to blaming the EEEEVIL guns and the NRA while the “irresponsible” ones wait for facts.
1st – check your facts. Current understanding is that this was the work of a single shooter.
2nd – Stop the irrational straw men. No one has ever claimed that all cops are racists or that cops kill instead of arrest all blacks. You lose what little credibility you have left with such ridiculousness.
As you can see from the comment above, Jack wants you dead.
You should report him to the police for the death threat. Coudn’t happen to a nicer wingnut.
Statement from organizers of yesterday’s BLM protest:
@SKI: The guy who walked up behind the cop and shot him and the guy that they blew up are not the same guy. Numerous reports said there were at least three shooters. Two were caught after leaving the scene at a high rate of speed.
Yet another black man walking around with a firearm over his shoulder that had absolutely nothing to do with the shooting surrendered to police after his picture as a “person of interest” went viral on social media. He actually walked up to and surrendered to police without incident and was released.
To hear others talk about it, he should have been gunned down before he got within feet of the officers. But hey…it doesn’t fit the narrative.
Obviously you cannot read.
You are a liar.
The shooter had as far as we know, no criminal record and no record of serious mental health problems.
So, YOU, want that man to be able to buy an assault rifle with a nice 30 round clip. Right? You WANT him to have that gun. You INSIST that he has a right to own that gun, and you actually believe the world is a better place because he has that gun.
There is ZERO chance that 5 police officers would be dead if he did not have that gun.
You and the gun cult are the reason he had that gun. The gun without which 5 police officers would be home with their children today.
Who knew that Phyllis Schafly was running for political office…
It’s a white supremacist conspiracy.
It’s the NRA………
Everything except it’s some mentally disturbed people who “want to kill white people.”
No wonder progress can’t be made.
You people should be ashamed of yourselves.
I said earlier
Expanding upon that, I think its time we treat Jack as we treat the Anti-Vaccine defenders. As michael reynolds has said in the past we need to make owning a gun as shameful and as ostracizing as we make not vaccinating a child. When you think about it there are many parallels between the anti-vac crowd and the gun huggers.
– They cherry pick and make up numbers as needed to justify their point of view.
– They don’t give a damm who dies because of their actions.
I think the time has come to treat the gun huggers as we treat the anti-vaccine defender; as a small minority who are willing to endanger society in their desire to act in an illegal, immoral and unethical way.
@Jack: Stories keep changing…
Was The Dallas Cop-Killing Sniper A Lone Wolf Or Part Of A Team?
Law abiding gun owners like myself do not act in illegal, immoral, or unethical ways.
But if it makes your ego feel better to blame me and those like me for all the ills in the world, please, blame to your hearts content. It won’t change my thoughts or actions one iota.
@SKI: It’s clear, to anyone that looks at the facts objectively, the shooter that walked up to the cop and shot him point blank is not the person shooting from the top of the building. A person cannot be in two places at once.
@Jenos Idanian: “Again, it’s too early to make real judgments, so keep on blaming the NRA, ”
If the problem is that the NRA makes it impossible to keep guns out of the hands of nuts, then the fact that a white-hating nut can get a gun is part of the same problem. Or do you believe the NRA pushes to make guns only available to white people?
Based upon their official silence in the Philando Castile case, they would like too. But they can’t do it without being labeled as racist.
They haven’t quite perfected their version of the Southern Strategy
@Loviatar: Is the NRA supposed to make an official announcement every time someone with a gun gets shot? Unlike president Obama, (see Henry Gates, Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown) the NRA actually waits for the facts to come out before making announcements.
However, at least two organizations, the Second Amendment Foundation and the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, both based in Bellevue, Wash., expressed concern over the case and called for an investigation by state-level entities, perhaps even from a state outside of Minnesota.
Well, that is the difference between elected officials, such as the President, and the private group such as the NRA. One is a figurehead expected to lead in times such as this, and the other is a private group of citizens.
And if this blog has taught me anything…”facts” are subjective. Assault rifles are bad in the hands of idiots, fact. Others may not agree in regards to that being a fact.
And this figurehead got it wrong on all three occasions. I guess maybe he should wait for more information before casting blame on the police.
But, of course we are talking about the “don’t let the facts get in the way crowd”.
This incident destroys every platitude uttered by the NRA and their libertarian enablers.
“An assault rifle (oops, modern sporting rifle) is just an ordinary gun, like Davy Crockett’s musket or great-grandpappy’s old deer rifle”
Well, no, they are military style weapons, perfectly adapted to military style tactics like sniping from rooftops.
“It takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun”
Well, when the bad guys with guns ambush the good guys with military style tactics and weapons, it turns out that the good guys have no chance, Clint Eastwood fantasies notwithstanding.
“Everyone should access to guns like these, in order to resist Big Gumint tyranny”
That looks a lot less attractive when it’s unstable people mowing down police officers from cover, doesn’t it? It’s not anything like a bunch of white teenagers yelling ” Wolverines!” as they blow away faceless government agents, isn’t it? Libertarians take note.
It’s hard as an African American, not to look at this incident and not to think of James Baldwin’s “The Fire Next Time” and Malcolm X’s ” The chickens coming home to roost”. How many times have people called on the government to take action to reign in the police who seem to have carte blanche to unjustifiably kill one black person after another after another, without any attempt by the government to stop them? It seems almost inevitable that eventually some people will take the law into their own hands and strike back against the lawless law officers. TBH, I’m surprised it didn’t happen before this.
Well, now it’s happened. Will this Congress now act to pass the kind of far sighted legislation required to reign in the killer cops? I doubt it. As I’ve said before , when a racist pro police prosecutor got off that cop who executed Tamar Rice on video, I gave up all hope in the system. Well, when people give up hope in the system, THIS is what happens.
1. They declined to comment when asked by both the media and their members.
2. They commented this morning in Dallas well before all the facts were known.
Please adjust your rantings to the new developments. Shooter was a lone gun man who was terminated using a remote detonated bomb. Other arrests were protestors that made themselves suspicious in the general confusion, and luckily the police showed restrained.
Just picture it as rantings from an anti-vaccination nut job. About as coherent as if mouthed by any of the following idiots.
Jack this is your peer group.
But it’s We The People exercising our Second Amendment rights! We should be thrilled!
Oh, wait a minute. Angry Nee-Grows aren’t We The People, they’re Those Criminals. Only right-wing white guys are allowed into the hallowed inner circle of those who get to speak on behalf of We The People. Someone get Ammon Bundy on the phone…
@Pch101: Clearly you are a closet racist. I’m surprised you don’t have your hood on as we speak.
You know that bit that Jim Carrey did in Ace Ventura, the one where he grabbed his butt cheeks and pretended as if he was speaking out of his ass. Well in your version, I can see your lips moving.
I would suggest that you have clear grounds for a malpractice lawsuit against the school that awarded you a high school diploma, but I doubt that there is a school that would have given you one.
@Pch101: More ranting from a racist.
Please go post on your KKK facebook page where your opinion might actually mean something to your like minded loser friends.
Damned if you do, damned if you do not.
For example, George W. Bush was roasted over sitting in the kindergarten class reading when the attacks happened on 9/11/2001.
Obama is roasted, in your case, for not waiting long enough.
Everyone is a critic.
I’m not roasting Obama for his timeliness, I’m roasting him for the clearly false narrative that he put forth in all of those cases. In each instance he chastised police for their response before knowing the facts.
I was going off this :
Kind of proving my point here.
Sigh. Jack, you can’t shoot 11 police officers with a bottle of liquor. There’s a big difference between liquor and guns. Isn’t that fricking obvious?
Besides, there are all kinds of regulation on the sale, manufacture, distribution and use of alcohol-probably more so than for guns. As a private seller, I can go to a gun show in Virginia and legally sell any number of any type of gun to anyone, no questions asked, and no paperwork or ID required. I doubt I can do that with alcohol. In fact, I know I can’t, since I can’t sell to minors and am required to ask for ID. But if I wanted to sell that minor an AR 15, a 30 round magazines, and 10,000 rounds of ammo, no problem.
That’s just crazy pants.
@Andrew: I have no problem with Obama wanting to address the nation and discuss the topic. But if he is going to blame the police he should have at least waited to get more information. He has clearly been the Divider-in-Chief on all things related to the police. He instigates and encourages violence against police by doing so. We witnessed it again in Baltimore when the officials there threw fuel on the racial fire over Freddie Gray.
How many times has the left denounced the “hateful” rhetoric of Palin or Rush Limbaugh.
I can truly grieve for every officer who’s been lost in the line of duty, and still be troubled by cases of police overreach without immediate calls for blame or violence. Those two are not mutually exclusive.
You can have great regard for law enforcement and still want them held to high standards.
No, there are not more regulation for alcohol than there are for guns. It’s not even close. There are over 20,000 firearm regulations.
No, you cannot sell to anyone, no questions asked. If you are selling a handgun and the person is from out of state, that is illegal. If you fail to ask for ID to determine this, you can be charged. Period.
You cannot sell a handgun to a minor (under 18). If you do, you can be charged. Period.
“To privately sell a firearm, it is recommended that you safeguard information pertaining to the transaction such as the date the firearm was sold, the complete name and address of the buyer, and the make, model, and serial number of the firearm. The seller and buyer of a handgun must be a resident of the state in which the transfer occurs. Should the firearm ever be located at a crime scene, trace of the firearm will determine the licensed dealer who last sold the firearm and will identify the last buyer of the firearm. To have your name removed from this process, you may consider placing your firearm on consignment with a licensed dealer. This will also ensure that the firearm is transferred only to a lawfully eligible individual.”
Now, I’m not saying you cannot get away with what you propose, but that makes you, by definition, a criminal and you can be prosecuted. Criminals, by definition, do not obey the law.
It looks like we are indeed dealing with a disturbed individual. The problem is that every time this happens, the NRA and their hirelings in Congress and the right wing media say “It’s a mental health problem”.
Well that is partially true. But since Republicans are not willing to spend a nickel to fix our disgracefully broken mental health system, that response is something of a dodge. It’s also worth noting that the NRA and their fellow travelers seem completely unwilling to take steps to make it harder for deranged individuals to obtain firearms.
I’m sure it appears that way in your imagination. Perhaps that helps you to deal with your disappointment that Jihadists are not involved. It must be vast.
Here’s a clue for you – “mentally disturbed” in no way equates to “activist”
I am willing to listen to any ideas you have that do not infringe upon those that obey the laws. Tell me how you can keep someone who has no record, no mental health issues, and no illegal past from buying a gun and then immediately giving it to someone who does.
Please, put them forth.
In Texas? I don’t think that’s the case. Back when I lived there, NFA weapons weren’t subject to state controls at all, so full auto and silencers were very much legal for private citizens. Has that changed?
So, I guess a beaded necklace with the black power symbol and sharing an image celebrating “black power” on his Facebook page isn’t enough to come to that conclusion for you.
Fully auto weapons have been illegal to produce for private ownership since the National Firearms Act (NFA) was passed in 1934. There are still fully auto firearms out there but they cost upwards of $10k. A private citizen may take possession of a fully-automatic firearm but must pay a $200 tax to the Internal Revenue Service and be approved by the Treasury Department to own the firearm, which is registered to the owner with the federal government.
In 1968, Congress approved the Gun Control Act (P.L. 90-618), a provision of which [18 U.S.C. 925(d)(3)] is interpreted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) to prohibit the importation of fully-automatic firearms for sale to civilians.
Finally, Firearms Owners’ Protection Act (FOPA) was passed in 1986 and BATF all interpreted the amendment as a prohibition on the civilian possession of any fully-automatic firearm manufactured after May 19, 1986.
It is illegal to modify single fire rifles for autofire.
Silencers only require a tax stamp.
I can’t seem to find the NRAs message of support for Mark Hughes. This is the gentleman who was open carrying his legally licensed rifle during last night’s protest and was then mistakenly identified as a suspect. Could you provide me with a link to their official message of support.
@Jack: Yes; however, there are states that do not allow private citizens to own NFA weapons – even conservative states like Missouri, for example. Texas is not a state that prohibits NFA weapons, and I think Jenos said some things that weren’t correct based on that.
@Loviatar: There are numerous videos available on youtube where firearm owners, both black and white, are harassed and even arrested by police while carrying their firearms in public. The NRA didn’t put out an official message of support for them either.
@Jack: The DPD had adopted reforms including de-escalation and community trust-building. That’s likely what enabled them to take the suspects into custody instead of killing them. Link
No, it’s not. The facts so far suggest a deranged person with generalized anger towards white folks who adopted some of the trappings of the 1960’s black power movement. An activist is a person who campaigns for social change. We are talking about two different things.
Let me put it this way – you could take a picture of yourself wearing a grateful dead tshirt while flashing the peace sign and post it on a Facebook group page for hippies. That does not make you a hippie, you would still be a peanut head who is afraid to leave his house unarmed.
@Electroman: It is a federal offense to own an illegally modified full auto firearm. It doesn’t matter what the state laws are. I’m not saying people cannot own legal NFA firearms in Texas. I know that there are a couple places in Nevada that allow people to shoot fully auto firearms. But the average person does not have the money to own a fully automatic weapon.
I believe Jenos said autofire weapons were illegal. That is a mistake.
I simply corrected that to say without the IRS tax stamp, the pre-1986 manufacture, and the Treasury approval…it’s not legal.
So, you could be correct in that there are people in Texas that own and do shoot their fully auto weapons. It’s very unlikely one of those was used in this case.
Yea, it looks like the Dallas PD was/is doing some good work.
I leave my house unarmed all the time. I work on a military installation you douche.
So, that would make you…let me see…what’s the word…WRONG! Like usual.
Ah, so because it’s a difficult problem, your answer is to say “its too hard” and simply give up. That’s the spirit that made America great, eh Jack?
The complete transcript of his speech regarding the Dallas shootings.
Can you please point to me where he is the Divider and Chief, using his words?
I’m still awaiting your grand ideas you pretentious asshole.
While that may be true for random youtube gun videos shared among the faithful, this was a pretty prominent and public attack on Mark Hughes’ 2nd Amendment rights.
Why isn’t the NRA pushing back on this affront? Are they losing their edge, first Alton Sterling, then Philando Castile and now Mark Hughes, why all of a sudden do they seem so reticent to respond to three prominent and public attacks on the 2nd Amendment. Maybe you can help me, because I can’t seem to put my finger on the reason why.
@Andrew: I specifically said those speeches about Henry Gates, Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown.
Apparently he’s finally learned after numerous flubs.
@Loviatar: Alton Sterling is not a valid example. He was a felon in possession of an illegal firearm. Boy, you really do go out of your way to reach for invalid facts to back up your stupid arguments.
Also, Hughes’ rights were not violated. He was listed as a person of interest because he was in the location that the shooting occurred. He voluntarily came forward to clear his name.
If you really have a hard on for an answer, I suggest you call them.
Ok, so what about Philando Castile and Mark Hughes. Two public attacks on 2nd Amendment rights. Where is the message of support and concern from the NRA?
@Loviatar: Hughes’ rights were not violated. He was listed as a person of interest because he was in the location that the shooting occurred. He voluntarily came forward to clear his name.
Do you not understand the words
Do I look like the Public Affairs office of the NRA?
Here’s their number. 1 (800) 672-3888
Well the Dallas Police department seems to think differently. They only recently took down his photo from their twitter feed. It was captioned: This is one of our suspects. Please help us find him!
Careful Jack, you’re kicking the sacred cow of gun control. Mustn’t knock people’s religion.
See, this is an example. We’ve seen mass shooters in countries with strict gun control. We’ve seen people use bombs to kill. This guy had at least one bomb. We don’t even know what weapon he had at this point. But the Cult of Gun Control is sure that there is zero chance this would have happened without background checks or magazine limits or something. Anything.
To move away from that.
The sad part is that Dallas PD was one of the leaders in policing reform. They were doing community policing, emphasizing deescalation, supporting protesters. Hell, before this shooting, the police Twitter feed was posting pictures of the protest with cops in regular uniform standing next to the protesters. And the result: huge drops in crime, huge drops in complaints of police brutality.
The good news is that the Dallas PD gets it. They’re not going to go to a war mentality. They’re not going to blame the protesters. They’re not going to blame the NRA or BLM or whoever anyone’s favorite whipping boy is today. They’re going to blame the shooter.
Yeah, crazy stuff.
Grand ideas are BS. There is no quick fix, no easy answer. There is just hard work and imperfect solutions trying to deal with a difficult problem in the real world.
You are probably better off sticking to your sad attempts at dominance, pretzel logic, and name calling 🙂
@Loviatar: To give credit where it’s due, Red State today had two good articles about this, one which argued that when African-Americans continually see police violating their rights and taking their lives and getting away with it, it’s no wonder that their trust in police and desire to strike back arises. The second expressed dismay that a law-abiding African-American open carry advocate like Mark Hughes should be targeted like that.
Yes, but we don’t see nearly as many.
Would you argue with a straight face that a medical procedure that doesn’t work 100% of the time is ineffective and has no benefit? I would hope that you are smarter than that with respect to scientific and medical matters, because you sure as hell aren’t when it comes to guns.
Well, good. If the president can adjust for the better of the nation. He is leading by example. And maybe other leaders need to be held to the same accountability. No matter which party, group, or organization. It is never too late to change. Especially for the better.
Whether it is speeches, tweets, or how they view certain issues. (Subjective, I know.)
As much as the POTUS is viewed negatively for those other speeches. I, also, certainly do not like anyone willing to take to the stump, social media platforms, and/or media, while running for or being the same position AND spouting the same sort of alienating behavior.
Maybe we all can hold every leader, or want to be leader, accountable for this behavior. Maybe we all can stop pointing fingers, and acting like children saying that because X person said or did this, we can do the same!
But, then again, the mantra of “Don’t be a dick” seems to be something that so few of us like to use. Shrug. Humanity, what can you do?
Er, yes you can. As you allude to but don’t want to admit, Virginia doesn’t REQUIRE that you ask for ID, nor does it require that you keep records of the sale. I can sell an AR 15 to Mustafa of Afghanistan or an 16 year old for cash, do a handshake, and move on, nothing more required. Sure, I can get charged later, but I can get appointed Pope, too.
Thanks to the gun lobby, Virginia and 32 other states make it very easy for a private seller to sell guns that can never be traced back to that seller, absent extraordinary circumstances. And frankly, even if it is, you can just come up with any bullsh!t story you want to explain how Mustafa got the gun, and escape liability. (“Hey, I lost that gun on a hunting trip”, etc.).
IOW, as a private seller, you can get away with selling a gun to an ineligible individual, 99.9 per cent of the time. Got it.
Not surprising about the “professionalism” of the shooting.
First of all, Michael is correct, without the gun, no five police officers dead. That’s a fact
Indeed, we do. A lot fewer, though. They are not happening every few days like they do here in America. I’m happy to take that deal.
We also see homicides happening in every country with laws against homicide. I’ve never seen someone argue that we should abandon homicide laws because they don’t prevent every homicide.
I’ve never heard that argument from any gun safety proponent. But hey, keep building those straw men. You’re getting good at it.
Agree with everything you say about Dallas PD.
I can blame the shooter, and I can blame the dysfunctional system that enabled him to cause so much damage. I can do more than one thing at a time. You should try it.
Here is the analogy I use: to organize the shooting in Brussels and Paris, ISIS needed to get activists in and out of Syria, to organize a gun smuggling network and a series of safe houses, and maintain strict OPSEC during the preparation for its attacks. In the US, the Orlando guy could just pick up couple of pieces in a gun store. Now, that doesn’t mean that a motivated shooter in, say, Norway, won’t be able to lay his hands on a weapon and be able to conduct mass slaughter. It’s just that in the US, its much easier to do so. Now, unlike most people on this thread, I don’t think we can do much about this: there are 300 million people in this country, and millions of people who are both law-abiding and view gun ownership as central to their identity. You are not going to make their guns dissapear, and as long as there are hundreds of millions of guns in circulation, some significant proportion will fall into the wrong hands (there are several hundreds of thousands of pieces stolen every year). There is nothing that can be done really without triggering a civic crisis- but the fact that nothing much can be done doesn’t mean we should ignore the obvious.
we didn’t do anything when 20 kindergartners were murdered, I doubt we’ll do anything now.
@Scott F: All guns are “military grade” so that’s a meaningless assertion. An AR-15 is not a high powered rifle when using the standard 5.56 or .223 rounds (same round size just a difference in chamber pressure/velocity). A real high powered rifle is a 30-06 or winmag or any number of other hunting rifle rounds. The standard AR round is considered a varmint round in the hunting world.
Here’s an image to assist you in your education.
Matt – It is reported the shooter used an AR-15. If so, it would be a copy of the M-16, The only significant difference would be the absence of a burst or auto capability. The M-16 was standard issue in the U. S. Army until recently, being replaced with essentially the same rifle, but with “cosmetic” differences. You want to put down another commenter here for using the term “military grade”, a term which was used by experts in the news coverage last night. I am sick to death of you people hiding behind the details of gun terminology and semantic arguments.
Five people are dead, seven wounded. Do you have anything relevant to say?
That statement very clearly identifies you as just the sort of mentally unstable individual who should under no circumstances own a gun.
You are a screwed up person, Jack, a mess of a human. I’d say ‘get help’ but you won’t, because nuts never realize they’re nuts. Which is why, you cretin, we need gun control – to keep guns out of the hands of a man who threatens death over an internet comment.
But thanks for taking the time to so convincingly dispose of the bullsh!t NRA argument that it’s all about ‘mental health.’ People who threaten people are by definition not mentally stable. And yet, you are the NRA spokesman here.
If it’s not about the weapon, why not allow private ownership of machine guns, missiles, even tanks? Explain. Because according to you it’s not the tool, it’s only the man. So there is no theoretical basis for denying individuals the right to own any sort of weapon. Right?
Aw, you poor child. I never threatened death. I said no more than you said about me towards cops. Replacing the word cops with your specific name does not make it a threat, and you know that.
But you want to make hay of it so feel free to cry your eyes out to all who will listen. As far as I’m concerned, you are simply a douchebag anti-gun nut, that like most anti-gun nuts, wishes ill will and even violence towards gun owners while expecting us to simply sit back and take it.
You actually sound a lot like Southern States Community College Professor James Pearce who stated,
Yeah, you are that kind of nut, cupcake.
I want a Davy Crockett, it would be great for protecting your property.
Yes. A person of interest.
“Person of interest” is a term used by U.S. law enforcement when identifying someone involved in a criminal investigation who has not been arrested or formally accused of a crime.
But none of his rights were violated. It would be negligent for officers not to want to talk to someone that is carrying a rifle while officers are getting shot at.
No, Jack, you’re the one making threats, not me. So own who you are: a gun nut who threatens people.
On top of your suggestion in an earlier thread that the government should license procreation. . . Yeah, you’re a nice combination of stupid and unstable. Just the kind of guy who should be stockpiling weapons.
No, a suspect.
The Dallas Police Department had on their twitter feed until late this afternoon the following photo with the attached caption.
This is one of our suspects. Please help us find him!
So, please tell me again why you and the NRA are so willing to see this man’s 2nd Amendment rights violated. Its the goatee isn’t it.
@Loviatar: His rights were not violated. Do you not understand that? What right do you believe was violated by the police stating they were looking for him?
Are you really that dense?
As for me, I have stood up for this man. I was the first to post his information to this thread. He was not shot. He was not cuffed. He was not beaten. He was legally carrying his rifle. Period. The fact that he was carrying his rifle and shots range out immediately makes him a suspect/person of interest until such time as he is cleared. Do do otherwise is negligence.
As far as the NRA, I will say again. ASK THEM.
@michael reynolds: I never threatened you panzy. If you believe so, go talk to the cops.
Otherwise, suck it up, buttercup.
Transcript from Minnesota officer shooting of Castile.
How does a cop determine the width of someone’s nose before even pulling him over, but that is what he told a dispatcher. So, Castile never had a broken tail light.
I believe the officer has some splainin’ to do.
@EddieInCA: your point is what? did you read the headline or was that some googling in progress? did any of the headlines say “black guy shoots white cops”?
@C. Clavin: yet none of your lame attempts at gun control would have stopped any of these people from killing- you’re blaming the vehicle instead of the driver.
@Monala: not sure if they were registered republicans but their collective body count is just a long weekend in south chicago…..not a republican stronghold by any means. nice try at cherry picking weak stats but you gotta have some real stuff to show in here. but hey, this is the age of google- try the fbi site on murders by race and get back to us, m kay?
but back to reality again-how do any of you justify what this guy did, seriously?
@J-Dub: We don’t need Jenos to hijack the thread; Jack is doing it just fine. And, unfortunately, we invited him to do it! This is an example of why it’s so important not to feed or tease the trolls.
@Jack: ” The NRA does not want anyone to get access to firearms, military grade or otherwise.”
Gee, I don’t want anyone to get access to firearms, military grade or otherwise either. Why is the NRA working against me?
Oh? That’s not what you meant?
@steve s: (Sigh…)
@gVOR08: The reports I’ve seen here in Texas is he was using a regular SKS which had an internal magazine. You know basically one step away from a bolt action rifle. The SKS is popular for hog hunting down here due to the cheap and effective rounds.
As for the AR-15 and M-16 falsehoods you’re trying to claim… You cannot put a m16 trigger package into an ar-15 and have it work (or vis versa). The two are completely different in design. That’s not even getting into the mechanical differences in the upper and lower receivers. They are completely different rifles. Cosmetically they look very similar though and people like you fall for that…
BTW one 00 buckshot shell from a 12 gauge shotgun is roughly equal to firing 9 shots from a standard ar-15 in hole making capabilities.
@Matt: Also picatinny rails for example are something that are actually “milspec” (MIL-STD-1913). Hunting rifles across the country use those rails for optic mounts and more.’
I’m not hiding behind semantics I’m presenting facts. Where as you’re presenting nothing but an emotional appeal to ignorance.
@gVOR08: So my edit failed massively and cut off my rant about how awful TV experts can be. Essentially I pointed out that Fox news has experts on TV all day long claiming that the BLM peeps are nothing but a bunch of cop killing thugs. That global warming is a hoax perpetuated by the liberal elite in order to control you. That Obama is the worst president EVA and is driving this country into a ditch etc etc etc… Experts for days braw…
My original post was an attempt to educate the guy as he was making ridiculous claims. Now you’re making ridiculous claims so I have to try to educate you too.
What really blows my mind about this attack is that the Dallas PD have a pretty good rapport with the minority communities. Dallas PD has an outreach program that has been lauded by many. I fear what this “sniper” has done to that rapport..
@C. Clavin: isn’t it amazing how easy it is to blame the NRA for something its members aren’t doing? It’s a knee-jerk thing with you isn’t it?
The suspect supposedly told officers that his purpose was to kill white people. Specifically white cops. As many as possible. Let’s take a hypothetical for a moment… can you possibly imagine the reaction of this group if a white shooter wanted to kill as many black people as possible that that wouldn’t be the central point of discussion? I ask because I noticed it’s barely been brought up here. Apparently it doesn’t fit in with the Mantra being chanted at the moment
@Matt: your point is well made and well taken. Wasn’t the administration’s supposed to be engaging in racial healing?
I wonder if the name Mark Hughes Rings Bells with any of the people here? The context is that mr. Hughes was one of the people protesting. I would advise doing a little investigation into the actions of this man on that evening. Personally I find it curious that he is mentioned so seldom
Things I’ve learned or had confirmed from this thread.
1) The NRA similar to the Republican party is willing to pander to the racist element within their ranks.
2) In the face of a great American tragedy the NRA similar to the Republican party is unwilling to put American lives above their own selfish goals.
3) You cannot convince someone who does not want to be convinced (ex. Jack). They will not listen to facts or logic, instead they will find any and all reasons to not listen/consider/think about anything that contradicts their point of view.
Yes, but in these incidents the pro-gun bunch always defaults to “presenting facts” as a way to divert attention from the larger issues. “The guy in Orlando didn’t use an AR-15, it was a Sig MCX!” Really? 49 people are needlessly dead, but getting some all-but-irrelevant point correct is what matters?
Sure, we’d all like the “experts” to be better experts. We’d all like initial reports to be 100% accurate. But the fact neither of these is generally true makes no difference when America still allows anyone with a pulse to obtain semi-automatic versions of military rifles with relative ease and turn their firepower loose on whatever and whomever.
@Jack: What exactly did Obama say that was so offensive and divisive? He said the Cambridge cops acted stupidly for arresting Gates in his own home after he had shown I’D and proved he lived there. That’s hardly a cop hating statement and one I would guess you agree with, given that you do seem to be a civil libertarian.
He said Trayvon Martin looked like he could have been his son. As far as I recall, he didn’t say anything about the police officers in the situation.
I don’t recall him saying anything about the Michael Brown case, other than general calls for peace, since he had been burned so badly by the conservative overreaction to his fairly innocuous statements about Gates and Martin. Is there a specific quote you can point to that Obama said about the Brown situation that you feel was divisive?
Obama is a Democrat, and a Nee-grow one at that. It should be obvious that everything that he says is offensive just because.
If only we could have an overweight poorly-educated angry WASP as our commander in chief.
It’s the updated version of Obama’s apology tour. Jack’s heard on the radio that it happened so many times that no amount of proof will convince him it did not.
@Matt: @Matt: @Matt: Now I’m even more sick of people hiding behind gun nomenclature. So the mayor of Dallas was wrong when he said it was an AR-15, and instead of firing a U. S Army M-16 round or a .223 very like it, it fires a Russian Army AK-47 round. How could Mat F or guys on TV think to call that “military grade”?
I think that Matt is trying to say that they were killed by non-lethal non-bullets fired by a non-gun, which makes things completely different. Or something like that.
It’s the kind of logic that one finds on Holocaust denial websites. Go research “Prussian blue” for an example of how deniers invent irrelevant details and present them in a serious tone in their effort to make non-arguments seem plausible and to create a distraction from important issues. It’s an elaborate decoy tactic: shift the focus to something that doesn’t matter while avoiding the primary subject.
A tragic event ignited by police brutality and unaccountability….and I just read 170 posts full of back and forth about the NRA, BLM, and gun control. WTF
When are Federal, State, and local officials going to introduce legislation that clarifies via statue–CLEAR escalation of force protocols and the use of deadly force? I don’t give a fark what party they come from–that’s the issue. There is too much ambiguity and discretion left to the beat cop–who often doesn’t have the training or temperament to properly yield that kind of authority. Half the damn country has ADD but please keep the discussion on track.
@Jack–normally you’re a a$$hole– but you’ve proven to be an ally when it comes to police brutality. The BLM hate is stupid dude…leave it alone. White people always put more importance in these groups than is warranted. New Black Panther Party is the same— a white boogey man that is built up by the right wing to be something more than it is. For the most part those are attention grabbing organizations who aren’t involve in anything but.
If you fervent about police unaccountability—leave it at that without all the side diversions that would prevent the cross coalition alliance that is needed to get the laws amended. Lets lay down the wedge issues this one time. We can remain adversaries everywhere else.
@Jim Brown 32: Wise words, and thank you for them. Alas, I don’t think you’ll get anywhere because following your suggestion requires people who are better human beings than those we encounter on the internet (myself included)–as is documented in exhibits 1-169, submitted for evidence above. But keep fighting.
and more losers venting on cops, just because….
@Jim Brown 32: It should be noted that the shooter in Dallas had been booted out of the New Black Panthers in Houston for being too anti-social for them.
They aren’t the renegade group some make them out to be.
@Jim Brown 32:
Policing has been traditionally one of the most decentralized functions of government in this country — it’s not just left to the states, it is left to the counties, cities and towns.
It becomes incredibly hard to regulate something that decentralized. The DOJ plays whack-ample with consent decrees, but that doesn’t help with a distributed, systemic problem.
True. But between FY2009 and FY2014, the federal government provided nearly $18 billion dollars in funds and resources to support programs that provide equipment and tactical resources to state and local LEAs.
No federal mandate is required. If the local and state LEA’s are unwilling to adopt escalation of force protocols mandated by the feds and show they also are following them let them pay their own freight.
It worked when we wanted to set a national speed limit after all (regardless of the efficacy of that idea itself).
What it looks to be a lone civilian managed to took down several police officers using guns that can be bought in a gun store. That´s a gun issue, for sure.
The first time that I heard about the AR-15 was when I was a teenager. The AR-15 used to be extremely popular among drug gangs in Rio de Janeiro.
The AR-15 can be legally turned into what is essentially a fully automatic M-16 totally legally and without the NFA license issues.
Watch the video and tell me the difference between a semi-auto and full auto.
@Davebo: I have less practical information about these guns than all these tofu loving Liberals on OTB, but to me a semiautomatic rifle is sufficiently enough to gun down even a dozen of armed officers.
@Andre Kenji: well, since the gun enthusiasts have told us that the AR-15 has no real stopping power, and that “BTW one 00 buckshot shell from a 12 gauge shotgun is roughly equal to firing 9 shots from a standard ar-15 in hole making capabilities”, I can only assume that your drug gangs in Rio de Janeiro were hunting varmints.
@Davebo: I think you will find people far more worried about a backdoor federalization of the local police than they were worried about a backdoor federalization of the state DOT. States turned down the money for Medicaid expansion, anything that reeks of the federal government taking over local police is going to face a harder prospect.
And, the state’s that choose to go without are likely to be in an even worse position than they are now, and be more likely to need to use their police as revenue streams, and cut back on training because of a lack of funds.
The consequences of bad policing aren’t localized, however, so it won’t just be Louisiana that feels the brunt of it. We’ve just seen apparently bad shootings in Minnesota and Louisiana inspire an emotionally unbalanced man in Dallas and tip him over the edge.
There are terrible police departments all over the country. How do you reform them, en masse, without producing a massive, self-destructive backlash? In this country, at this time, with the current political situation?
@Gustopher: I believe the city and county level is where most people’s passion should be dedicated because that’s who police forces work for. The problem is–people are quick to take to the streets and social media and you can’t pay them to show up en masse at city council meetings. Put the constant scrutiny on these people because they can get ordinances written that serve notice to the police that the days of barrel shooting are over. Success at this level has the possibility to trickle up to supporting state and possibly federal legislation. Im all about decentralized police forces..that’s good. But there needs to be a clearer contract between citizens and their police about what happens before they are authorized to take a life. There are a couple of police “qualified immunity” Supreme Court rulings that can be challenged as well.
@Davebo: and again, how many people are killed with even modified semi’s compared to handguns? and how will cops remove any guns from known criminals who hide behind the 4th- and then how would they take guns away from the legal crowd once they’re verboten?
but the sheer reality that you all wince at is this;
it would take nearly 40 yrs of cops killing blacks (justifiably or not) to equal what black on black kills each year. so tell us again how we have a white cop problem?
oh, here’s what it looks like when a black guy shoots/kills a white cop in the back- just because he’s white. the msm won’t show this as it may be “inflammatory”- yet they had no issue showing black guys dying for the viewing public to rally around…..tools.
The reason cops are trigger happy is because they work in an environment saturated with guns. Guns are the reason they wear body armor. Guns are the reason they stay in their cars, far from the people they police. Guns are the only reason – the only reason – why they are so afraid that they end up shooting. British cops mostly go unarmed because their country is not saturated by guns.
Guns are the reason cops die. Guns are the reason suspects die. Pro-gun arguments are transparent nonsense, effortlessly refuted. Guns are a sickness, a mental illness that grows out of insecurity and weakness. A man who needs a gun is a weak man. A man obsessed with guns is weak and suffering a serious mental illness.
As with drug addiction we should treat people like Jack and Bill as victims of a disease. These debates over this gun versus that gun, this little regulation and that regulation, are all a waste of time. These are sick, obsessed people, a danger to themselves, their children, their wives, and the public at large.
In the near term we need to be able to publicly identify gun owners so that parents can keep their children away from them. That’s the very minimum. No parent should ever have to send their child into the home of a gun owner without knowing the danger. Schools should publish a list of parents who keep guns in their homes. After all, gun owners claim they’re proud of their illness, so they logically should have no objection to being identified.
People like Jack and Bill may have a legal right to own guns, but the rest of us should have a right to know who they are so that we can minimize the danger they pose.
@michael reynolds: Cops are trigger happy because they work in an environment where they aren’t likely to be held accountable. Everyone in a position to hold a cop accountable knows damned well that their lives depend on that thin blue line. Prosecutors, judges, clerks etc all don’t want to piss the police off. As you’ve stated in the past it’s basically impossible to live today without breaking some laws. Well I can assure you that one thing a judge/prosecutor really hates to think of is being sent to jail themselves.
British cops are NOT unarmed. Stop being so stupidly naive.
Maybe you should look in the mirror…
There is a gigantic difference between an SKS and the AR-15. The SKS has an internal 10 round magazine and basically is a bolt action rifle with a semi auto action and wood furniture. The SKS is a Curio and relic rifle meaning you don’t even need the standard licenses to buy one.
An ar-15 and sig MCX are in comparison extremely similar to each other. The government agrees with my statement as the AR and sig platforms are fully regulated.
I’m glad you’re admitting you just want to ban all guns because you cannot be bothered to learn anything about them or the facts surrounding them.
@gVOR08: I’m tired of morons chiming off on things they have no real knowledge of. Is it really too much to ask for you to educate yourself about a topic you’re discussing? Is it really too much to ask for you to spend a little of your time to learn about a subject before pushing for laws relating to said subject?
AT least 100% of all rifle rounds in existence started off as a military round and under your definition would be considered “military grade” including the majority of rounds being used by millions of hunters across this country. It’s a meaningless term ginned up much like “assault weapon” was in order to scare and confuse the ignorant. The term assault weapon has worked wonderfully in that it’s so muddied the situation that we have people calling the SKS an assault rifle…
@gVOR08: Humans are nothing but animals with a much higher than average level of intellect. Anything that is effective as a hunting round will be effective in killing people. Now here’s the thing you don’t seem to know. By treaty (hague convention, Geneva convention etc)the USA and most other major countries are limited in what kind of ammo they can use. Military or “ball ammo” is full metal jacket with very little in expansion capability. If given the choice between being shot with a military round or a hunting round I’d choose the military round. One of the problems with the M16 round is that it would over penetrate and basically just poke small holes in people. It’s not very effective for stopping people compared to other rounds. Even hollow point rifle rounds have generally poor expansion properties when compared to hunting rounds.
The 30-30 which used to be the most popular hunting rifle in the USA (still might be) uses a 30 cal round that is almost the exact same as the round used by the ak47. My saiga which is a semi automatic ak-103 uses the 7.62×39 round and it uses the same cleaning rods/snake etc as the 30-30. The rounds even act very similar for the first 150 yards. The 30-30 has a flatter trajectory and longer range as it has more powder behind the round. Russian hollow point is pretty much the same as FMJ when it comes to expansion (pretty much non existent).
So the point is that military rounds are noticeably less destructive to living tissue than hunting rounds. This is by design due to treaties signed over the years. Pretty much every round in existence started off as a military round and was adopted for extra lethality by hunting communities/individuals.
It’s clear that I’m trying to correct his rampant falsehoods. One cannot responsibly regulate something if one has no real knowledge of the thing in question. Your false equivalency isn’t even the same planetary system.