Obama Che Guevara Flag ‘Scandal’
The blogosphere is roiled up over the flag issue again. No, not that flag. This one:
That’s the Cuban flag with the image of Ernesto Che Guevara superimposed on it. It’s tacked onto the wall of an office in Barack Obama’s Houston campaign headquarters. An office belonging, apparently, to a low level staffer who’s in charge of setting up the office.
I’m immediately reminded of a line from Charlie Daniels’ breakout hit, Uneasy Rider: “I betchya he’s even got a commie flag tacked up on the wall inside of his garage.” The classic response: “I ain’t even got a garage, you can call home and ask my wife!”
But I digress.
Here are the headlines of some select reactions to the Obama flag flap:
- Ed Morrissey: “A Flag Obama Supporters Salute?”
- Charles Johnson: “Che Guevara Flags in Obama’s Houston Office”
- Matt Bramanti: “Obama office adores psychotic Marxist thug”
- Ed Driscoll: “Sixties Radical Chic, Frozen In Amber”
- Curt@Flopping Aces and Don Surber weigh in with “Che Obama”
- Michael Goldfarb: “Che You Can Believe In”
Morrissey is simultaneously fair and not:
Does Obama know his Houston supporters honor a terrorist in his campaign office? I’m sure he doesn’t. However, it would behoove him to ensure that the flag gets taken down and that he renounces any affinity for Che and the Fidel Castro regime.
He’s right that Che is a terrorist who shouldn’t be honored by decent people. Che worship (or, alternatively, the wearing of Che t-shirts as a statement without the slightest clue of who he was) seems to be a phase that certain left-leaning activists go through in their youth; it generally passes. Driscoll’s characterization of it as “juvenilia” is spot on.
But, surely, Obama doesn’t need to publicly weigh in on the decorating choices of every low level staffer? Let alone “renounce” affinities which he’s never shown?
Johnson’s insinuation is simply beyond the pale: “Barack Obama won’t wear an American flag on his lapel, but on the wall of his Houston campaign office: a Cuban flag with a picture of Communist mass murderer Che Guevara.” As I noted when the ridiculous flap over Obama’s calling flag pins “a substitute for true patriotism” emerged,
I don’t mind people wearing pins or putting stickers on their cars as a show of support for their country or their cause. I am, however, irritated by the notion that so doing makes them somehow superior to those who don’t.
The suggestion that Americans need to start swearing loyalty oaths, though, is light years beyond irritating.
CORRECTION: The original contained the sentence “John Cole‘s suggestion that the flag is merely a statement on our Cuba policy strikes me as giving credit where it decidedly isn’t due.” Cole responds in the comments below that the discussion of Cuba policy was merely an aside rather than an attempt to analyze the motivations of the office worker. My apologies for the inference.
UPDATE: Johnson responds here arguing that I’m attributing something to him that he doesn’t believe. It seems to me, though, that the implication of juxtaposing Obama’s refusal to wear an American flag pin with supporters displaying a Che flag is plain enough.
The “loyalty oath” goes to the whole notion — implied by Johnson and others quoted above — that Obama is under some obligation to declare that he’s anti-Communist and pro-American. Neither of those should be in doubt.
As to my “rushing to do damage control for Barack Obama,” regular readers can decide for themselves on that one. New readers can feel free to check through my Barack Obama archives.
UPDATE: Ace disagrees with me but has a reasonable take. I’m sympathetic to the “Lie down with dogs and you get fleas” sentiment. But the nature of Big Tent politics is that both sides are going to attract some yahoos. Ronald Reagan was endorsed by the Ku Klux Klan, after all. I don’t think it serves anyone’s interest to play the “whose crazies are crazier” game. Ultimately, it’s just guilt by association.
Yes, I’m “interested in rejecting what seems to be easy pandering and hackery.” But not simply out of high-mindedness, drug induced or otherwise. Frankly, there are plenty of good reasons for conservatives to oppose electing Obama president. Making mountains of aspiring molehills weakens our case rather than strengthening it.
This is an honorable response. I’m a big Obama fan and I don’t envy the position that a stupid supporter has put him in; this image is going to be in emails and blog posts attacking him from here until January of 2017.
I read somewhere that more than one office has this flag. Let’s be fair here. Obama is allowed to have friends of Castro as his friends. I believe he also supports Chavez’s efforts to be social in South America.
SDM: A little revealing that you are upset about Obama’s followers choice of decoration. You and he should be strenously arguing for their right to display what they want.
If you watched the actual fox news clip, you would learn that these are volunteers and this is not an official campaign office.
I never suggested any such thing. All I said was this was much ado about nothing, evidence that the GOP party flacks are starting to worry about Obama, and then, as an aside, I wrote:
“BTW- Is there anyone except the troglodyte right who thinks our Cuba policy has been a success and doesn’t need to be thought through?”
BTW means by the way, and my aside was little more than a random thought, and NOWHERE in my post did I assert, imply, or anything else that the reason these folks had the silly flag up was to make a ‘statement’ on our Cuba policy.
Don’t believe Ed’s spin.
Here is the actual clip:
Notice the disclaimer below the video.
This is not an official Obama campaign office with staffers. These are volunteers and with all volunteers (i.e. take a look at the signs carried by the some of the dignified Freepers at GOP events), you get some wackos. As I understand it, the Obama campaign has disavowed any connection and asked the volunteer to take it down.
Am I right in thinking this is very similar to holding a Blogger responsible for every opinion in the comment section?
The campaign’s responsibility, like a Blogger, extends only to their willingness to keep up reprehensible postings after their attention is brought to them. The Obama campaign took it down.
Yup, my mistake, needed to look a little closer, thought it was a Conquest of the planet of the Apes poster, lol, it really is a terrorist on a flag.
Yet another daily tempest in a teapot. And if the Right Blogosphere want to build an argument out of this they should at least build a decent argument (I think there are a couple to be made). But this dog won’t hunt.
Morrissey is being fair all the way around. Now that it has become an issue the official campaign should simply ask for the flag to be taken down as it reflects on the candidate. Should the campaign be held responsible that it was there in the first place? No. But it now becomes responsible for it staying there if it does not come down.
To me it’s not so much a symbol of subversion or lack of loyalty as it is a symbol of immaturity and naivety. Those labels are something the campaign should avoid.
You liberals are all missing the point here: it is volunteers for Barack Hussein Obama who have a communist mindset that have displayed the flag. Sure, it is not Barack Hussein Obama himself, but should it be any surprise that his supporters display a Cuban flag and worship a murderous terrorist? No!
And John Cole: our US policy toward Cuba has indeed been a rousing success! It shows that a communist nation has a very hard time being successful w/o America help, and how its citizens will do nearly anything to escape. Also, they live in a 1950’s time capsule with its population virtually prisoners. Hmmm…yet it is democrats who want to emulate their system. Interesting…
I believe he also supports Chavez’s efforts to be social in South America.
This might be irritating if one could figure out what it is supposed to mean.
On what basis do you believe he supports Chavez in his efforts to be social, whatever that is?
I supposed if it were a Confederate flag it would have been okay.
Personally I find this more revealing about the type of person drawn into the Obama cult than about Obama’s policy positions on Cuba.
But still, Obama has given many signals to his supporters that his foreign policy will be more of the kumbaya type than of the confrontational type. That is all well and good when aimed at our friends. But dangerous to an extreme the way Obama will use it with our enemies as well. It is almost like he is oblivious to the fact that people like Che Guevara still actually exist in this world. And contra to what Obama thinks his warm hugs all around policy will not keep us safe.
I used to be very favorably inclined toward Obama. During this campaign however I grew to dislike him intensely.
What did Che Guevara do to classify his as a terrorist? I’m unaware of him engaging in any acts of violence that were aimed at terrorizing a population. Instead, it seems that he engaged in pretty conventional warfare and insurrection.
What he did in terms of tactics isn’t really any different from any insurrectionists have done, including George Washington and all of those who fought under him…
Now that doesn’t mean that the politics and policies of Che and Washington are interchangeable.
What was the name of that book that Goldberg fellow wrote? “Liberal…..” ummmm “Liberal Compassion”? Nooooo. Um….”Liberal Liberal Liberal…”
Ok google, here I come.
Someone thinks of Obama as Che-like out there. Check the mug. I don’t think Obama is responsible, but as usual, some on the left cheer on those who actually deserve condemnation.
Guevara was responsible for executions without trial, political imprisonments, and the like. Its worth looking into if you are not sure what acts he may have committed.
This flag by a volunteer, shows the mindset of the followers of this candidate. Isolated incident? We shall see as it is harder in this internets age to keep these incidents from the public view.
Your concern is that it got exposed so you attack the messenger and defend the message (Che Guevera as a heroic figure). Sad.
Among the many horrible unspeakable things Che did: he sentenced to death young teenage boys whose fathers had been against communism. He would allow their mothers to beg for their son’s lives, but overwhelmingly would reject their pleadings and order their sons to be hanged. He was given this power by Castro.
Good guy for you liberals to worship.
I don’t want to upset Obama, but he is going to HAVE TO TAKE A LOYALTY OATH if he is sworn in as president.
Or is he going to balk at that?
I’ve said it before and doubtless there will be cause to say it again- the right’s utter terror of communism is pretty dang amusing.
Another homeschool wonder who doesn’t understand the difference between fascism and communism. Much like Goldberg himself.
I’m not saying that Che Guevara was a nice guy. For the record, Hitler wasn’t a terrorist, neither was Stalin. Now the IRA, the Basque nationalist movement, the Kurds in Turkey and Fatah have clearly engaged in terrorism. Terrorism is a tactic, not a moral state.
Yeah, and Iraqi troops threw Kuwati infants out of incubators and stepped on them. Remember, when lying, less is more.
The Leading Lizard is now saying you’re carrying out “damage control for Barack Obama”:
The leading lizard seems to think you’re a Dem, simply for disagreeing with him.
Have you considered it? I’m sure they’d be delighted to have you and John Cole can attest that you won’t go blind or impotent.
I’m sorry Johnston’s being such an ass – but when you actively pander to and encourage the radical rightist elements of your party (e.g. LGF), as the Republicans have been determinedly doing for the past twenty years, you’re going to end up with embarrassing scenes like this.
“The suggestion that Americans need to start swearing loyalty oaths, though, is light years beyond irritating.”
er um…. and just what is the oath of the office of the President?
“The suggestion that Americans need to start swearing loyalty oaths, though, is light years beyond irritating.”
The President’s Oath of Office is a loyalty oath!
Also one for congress:
There’s also one for Congress:
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.”
I followed the Links to Charles Johnson’s site, and I can’t find anything remotely resembling what you have asserted in the quote above re “loyalty oaths.”
If a Confederate Flag were spotted on the wall of a Republican Presidential candidate, the s*** would hit the fan. It would be all over CBS, NBC, etc. It’s a fair point: A person who celebrates Che is supporting Obama.
Whose suggestion was that, and exactly when? Have you a link to support your accusations? The lust for loyalty oaths appears to exist only in your mind. Do you find your own suggestions irritating?
Sorry, James, I’m with Charles on this one. Equating such a juxtaposition with loyalty oaths is a stretch too far. Especially in the face of Charles’ clear declaration that he was making no such implication.
No matter what Obama’s own thoughts and positions, this makes him look bad just as the white supremacists’ support of Ron Paul made him look bad.
I have a seriously hard time supporting any candidate who counts among his supporters fans of Che Guevara.
[From “The Naked Communist,” by Cleon Skousen]
CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS
Goal #13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
‘The “loyalty oathâ€ goes to the whole notion — implied by Johnson and others quoted above — that Obama is under some obligation to declare that he’s anti-Communist and pro-American. Neither of those should be in doubt.”
No, it should NOT be in doubt, especially for a serious contender for the presidency….yet I wonder given the company he keeps.
A reasonable rule of argument:
Please address the issues people you disagree with put forth. Don’t invent stuff they probably believe too.
You can only call that a success if this were the goal. The goal of our policy is to replace the communist government with a democratic one, not make the residents of Cuba prisoners. In that respect our policy has been a miserable failure.
I’m gay and find these Che flags VERY offensive. Since its inception, the Communist regime’s treatment of homosexuals has been notorious. Gays (along with other dissenters which the Communists saw as undesirable)were sent to Che’s forced labor camps where they were tortured and/or murdered. I really would like to hear more about the “Change” that Obama and his supporters are planning to bring to this country if he’s in the White House.
Dismiss this if you choose to, but it does show that some of Obama’s supporters are in fact radical leftist kooks. I don’t expect him to answer for this, because he can’t possibly know what flag is hanging on every staffers wall, BUT, when you spend eight years pandering to this element, things like this are going to happen. You sleep with skanks, there’s a good chance you get an STD, ya know???? If nothing else, I have yet another reason to NOT vote for BO for president if he were to get the nomination.
no, it isn’t. Here’s the oath:
it is an oath of duty, not loyalty.
Now who’s splitting hairs?
Some interesting comments, and some that raise questions. I wonder if some here think about the implications of what they are saying.
While it might be fair to say that a supporter placing a Cuban flag in a campaign office is not expressing official opinion of the campaign, one could expect that any voter would like to hear an explanation of why the campaign allows it. Of course that could include any response, such as having Cuban Communist supporters or whatever, but still any American voter could reasonably expect an official response from the campaign. I would expect a similar explanation from anyone hanging the Confederate flag on the wall.
Since the original allegation is that Johnson says that Obama needs to swear a loyalty oath, I would like to see you cite where you got that from, since I can’t find it. Otherwise, apologize.
Also, I do not fear Communism. I hate it. It has been the cause of untold suffering in our lifetimes. It is impossible to hold to the philosophical underpinnings of Communism and be faithful to American values concerning the freedom of the individual. So if you are a Communist, you are not an American. Period.
Words have meaning. Duty and loyalty are not even remotely the same thing.
If it were a Nazi flag or a KKK banner, none of the “enlightened” discussion (above) would take place. Nor would Obama hesitate for a nanosecond to disavow it and order it to be taken down.
Che is just another immature way to give the finger to the establishment for too many on the left. Those who find reason to explain this away are only serving the Kook-Aid.
Integrity is made of sterner stuff.
You say that as if capitalism hasn’t…
I don’t find either philosphy very attractive, but listening to Hitler call Stalin “evil” cracks me up.
You are inventing stuff. Where in my post do you see anything anywhere remotely connected to capitalism?
Fact. More people have died as a result of Chinese Communism, Cuban Communism, and Stalinism that any other single factor. The common linking characteristic is Communism.
Any other factor? I’m guessing you don’t have a link to that statistic.
Sorry James. You have had a contrary thought and it looks like you have not met the criteria of the conservative idealogical police. You are no longer allowed to call yourself a conservative and must now be disowned.
Thank you for playing.
Fortunately for us Americans, our citizenship is not dependent on our philosophical opinions.
“You can only call that a success if this were the goal. The goal of our policy is to replace the communist government with a democratic one, not make the residents of Cuba prisoners. In that respect our policy has been a miserable failure.”
Sorry mate. Cuba has the rest of the world to trade with. That they cannot improve the standard of living of their people is a testament to Cuban governance, not US policy.
James has been ex-conservated?
* I’m trademarking that word, every time a conservative blow-hard says some other conservative is no longer a conservative, they have to pay me a royalty.
Ok, first of all, that wasn’t my point. My point was that Cuba as it is now was not the goal of our policy.
Secondly, being that the US is still the world’s largest economy, and the biggest consumer of global products, not being able to trade with us would hurt any country, regardless of it’s form of government.
Actually, by US law, any ship that docks in Cuba may not dock in the US. So the rest of the world has to choose between trading with the US or trading with Cuba.
it is probably pretty unfair to whack BO with the Che bit, to be sure. campaigns are free-wheeling, nuts affairs full of people you wouldnt ordinarily necessarily sit next to at McDonalds off the interstate.
that said, Im amused at some of the reactions here. broadcasting the images was hackish certainly, but also neatly hit one of the evergreen Democratic sorespots, which is their utter inability to throw their marginal hands overboard. consider that a roomful of workers for a very viable candidate for PoTUS worked around, and passed by, an image glorifying a communist revolutionary murderer. and no one said, “hey, maybe that belongs on your dorm wall, you know, theres the whole optics bit, and the 50 million who died following the ideology. Just sayin is all….”
nope, no one harshed the mellow.
Cant grasp that? think of your honest reactions if a Mccain office had a confederate flag prominetly displayed–and no one said a peep.
cheap shots over moral ineptitude make for silly distractions during campaigns.
I agree with Billy Hollis, Charles has established his integrity. Your PC head tilt has once again given us pause.
Like, for example, a sitting Vice President visiting a hunting lodge with a Confederate flag flying? I know where I stood on that issue- it was a stupid non-issue.
All the concern troll BS from Ed and others a la “Does Obama know his volunteers are flying a Che flag” is just the latest round of stupid from this crew of buffoons.
Scott Swank says, “What did Che Guevara do to classify his as a terrorist? I’m unaware of him engaging in any acts of violence that were aimed at terrorizing a population. Instead, it seems that he engaged in pretty conventional warfare and insurrection”
Well, let’s see: Argentinian born, Cuban guerilla and fomenter of revolutions in Congo and Bolivia. Neither of which he was invited into. Hardly “conventional” warfare.
His additional duties under “conventional” warfare included extra-judicial executions and warden of an infamous prison in Cuba, with him being quoted as saying he didn’t need legal documents to execute anybody he felt deserved execution.
Some Obama supporters probably feel the same way.
If a low-level staffer for John McCain suspended photos of a right-wing terrorist superimposed over said terrorists national flag, I suspect you’d all be singing a different tune. I further suspect that that story would make headlines in the mainstream media. Of course, no conservative would ever disrespect the country or the candidate by executing such an immature act.
Replace “Constitution of the United States” with “King of France” and what do you have?
“Actually, by US law, any ship that docks in Cuba may not dock in the US. So the rest of the world has to choose between trading with the US or trading with Cuba.”
Surely, the rest of the world can spare ships to go to Cuba and others to go to the USA.
TO: James Joyner
RE: A Proposed Bumper Sticker
CHEnge we can believe in!
I LIKE it…..
These images, along with his unwillingness to (1) sport a bit of metal on his lapel and (2) ‘salute’ during the Pledge of Allegiance/National Anthem/whatever, are going to make what the SwiftVets did the Kerry look like a love-fest.
RE: Not Much….
“Surely, the rest of the world can spare ships to go to Cuba and others to go to the USA.” — davod
…of a student of logistics, are you.
[Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics.]
RE: All That….
“Well, let’s see: Argentinian born, Cuban guerilla and fomenter of revolutions in Congo and Bolivia. Neither of which he was invited into. Hardly “conventional” warfare.” — John425
….and, apparently, something of a racist too.
According to some reports I’ve picked up over the last year or so, Che didn’t think much of other people who had darker skin than his.
[Where there is no religion, hypocrisy becomes good taste. — George Bernard Shaw]
Methinks that had this been a Confederate flag in a district office for Mike Huckabee or Fred Thompson, your position would be the polar opposite, no? Instead of supporting the right to speak their mind you’d be condemning it, right?
No wonder poles exist in politics.
I said it is funny how the right fears communism. You responded that you didn’t fear it- which implies you consider yourself on the right. The right has a huge hard on for free market capitalism. A->B->C
Mao’s “cultural revolution” killed up to 1.5 million. His original revolution maybe 2-5 million. Stalin (not actually a communist but whatever) killed less than a million with the “Great Purge.” I know you guys like to blame CHina’s famine on Mao but that’s pretty disengenous, not to mention the figures for how many died get ridiculously inflated.
By way of comparison-
AIDS has killed 25 million and infects another 33 million
Spanish Flu killed 25 million
Black Death killed 20-30 million
But if you want to restrict yourself to philosophical causes- estimates of the Native American loses in just North America at the hands of european colonizers range up to 100 million. In fact if we add the destruction of the Native Americans (including in south america) to the inquisitions and the crusades Christianity comes out far and away the leading cause of death, when talking philosophies. Easily.
Ooh… ooh.. I know! A monarchy and not a Constitutional Republic!
That is just silly. It’s like saying “replace Senator McCain with Duke McCain and what do you have?” There’s a reason the President swears an oath to defend the Constitution, rather than, say, the American people. Threats to the Constitution can come from within.
Actually, there’s more than one Che flag. There’s another one in a different office at the same campaign HQ. Obviously, there’s more than one Che supporter in Barack’s camp.
Check out the Fox Houston website for a second video.
sorry the black death killed *75* million. 20-30 was just the estimate for europe.
NOT EMPLOYEES OF THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN.
NOT AN OFFICIAL OBAMA CAMPAIGN OFFICE.
Here is a much better picture.
“NOT EMPLOYEES OF THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN.
NOT AN OFFICIAL OBAMA CAMPAIGN OFFICE.
’nuff said.” — Jessica
They’re just the ‘advance party’, or ‘Lead Team”. They set things up. And Obama takes over.
No affiliation whatsoeveeeeerrrrrr….
[I was born at night. But it wasn’t LAST NIGHT.]
Wow Tom, you’re really on the ball.
Point is that the “oath of duty ” that Tlaloc was referring to is no different than an “oath of loyalty”. It is exactly that, an oath of loyalty to the constitution.
Has Obama repudiated the display of Che in association by his ‘volunteers’?
You’d have an oath of *duty* to the King of France. Notice not one word in the oath says nything about *obeying.*
Loyalty means doing what they tell you to do. Duty means doing what you said you’d do. There’s a pretty big distinction there.
Why is this so hard to understand. COntrast the President’s oath with that of an enlisting soldier:
The italicized parts speak to duty. The bold and italicized speaks to fidelity. The bold part speaks to loyalty.
Three different things.
It is absolutely mindnumbing that the bandwagon ‘changers’ are immune to what an Obama Presidency really stands for. Sure, it stands for change, but not in the direction of a stronger America.That’s for sure.
One would also think that a candidate who enthuses that he would WITHOUT hesitation engage the Iranian mullahs and the Castro regime to ‘dialogue’ over our differences, is just a stones throw away from championing the terrorist thug Che.What a surprise.
BTW, this is the same Obama whose spiritual advisor gave a lifetime achievement ! award to the notorious antisemite Farakan, and who opines that Black Power is the antidote to Jew Power. Hmmmm.Enough said.
Can we lock the lock the little green foottards and the Paulinistas in a coat closet together?
RE: It Would Be VERY Hard….
…to explain much of anything to you about (1) duty, (2) loyalty and/or (3) fidelity….
….as you seem to have a serious problem recognizing the relationships of the three; as embodied by the oath of office for ‘officers’ of the United States.
[Those who would treat politics and morality as two separate issues will never understand one, nor the other. — Lord Blackstone, Viscount of Morley]
P.S. Change politics and morality to read duty and loyalty and you get the same result, on a different scale.
You’re still splitting hairs buddy.
Although I really don’t see that much difference, I do believe that the Presidential oath for all intents and purposes mostly conforms to an oath of duty. But loyalty to the same should be a given.
Like a soldier, the Commander in Chief has a “Duty” to defend the Constitution.
Duty. What they tell you to do.
And be proud of it.
TO: Adina Kutnicki
“It is absolutely mindnumbing that the bandwagon ‘changers’ are immune to what an Obama Presidency really stands for. Sure, it stands for change, but not in the direction of a stronger America.That’s for sure.” — Adina Kutnicki
Whenever I encounter someone so adamantly for ‘change’, I ask them to consider putting a bullet in their brain.
After they get over the shock, I remind them that THAT would be ‘change’. Then I ask them if they would be happy with it.
They usually get rather ‘disgruntled’. But it does cause them to ‘think’ about ‘change’.
[Obama/Guevera ’08; CHEnge we can believe in!]
RE: It All Depends….
“You’re still splitting hairs buddy.” — Cluebat to Tlaloc; regarding duty, loyalty and/or fidelity
….on how you define ‘splitting’.
P.S. The Democrats are NEVER going to live that business ‘down’….until they openly repudiate Mr. Bill and all who are associated with him.
Maybe Obama is a start. But they’re getting off on the wrong foot, with someone who despises the ideals espoused in the Constitution of the United States.
Umm. Cluebat might i refer you to your name while I restate the following:
An oath to a constitution is utterly different than an oath to a monarch. It is why we are a constitutional Republic and other countries are monarchies. Duty and fealty are different.
TO: Tom in Texas
“An oath to a constitution is utterly different than an oath to a monarch.” — Tom in Texas
….kind of education do they teach you there in Texas? Anythink like what that woman in the photo (above) got?
Duty and fealty/loyalty are, as I stated earlier to whatzizname, are intertwined. And if you don’t understand that, you’ll never understand either of them.
But what does that have to do with the fact that Obama supports like Che? Nothing. It’s a diversion tactic from the real issue here….
….is Obama a communist? Or just a good number of his ‘volunteer supporters’ who happen to be his ‘lead team’?
[A man is known by his followers.]
TO: Tom in Texas
That should read…
….Obama SUPPORTERS like Che?
I hope this Cuban-American can offer his two cents worth:
First, Mr. Joyner, with all due respect – and with very little knowledge as to your background – the loyalty oath: Perhaps it may be because you were born here in the US and, thus, may have a propensity for taking the privilege of being an American Citizen for granted, the following is incorrect, and, truly irritating:
The suggestion that Americans need to start swearing loyalty oaths, though, is light years beyond irritating.
For those of us that CHOSE to become American Citizens rather than having been blessed with the privilege by birthright, we MUST swear allegiance to this country prior to becoming Citizens. Taking that loyalty oath is, for most if not all that do, by far one of the proudest moments in our lives.
To whomever stated that Che Guevara or Hitler or others were not terrorists: enough with the semantic hijinks. You dont have to bomb buildings and cafes to be a terrorist, all you have to do is instill fear into people by whatever means possible. Che was very good at that by doing little things like taking a prisoner out daily and having him stand at the paredon – the execution wall – and then faking the whole execution. he would do this until one day he just felt like killing you and you were dead. Period. He would also bring family members – moms, wives, sons, daughters, parents – of prisoners and walk them by the very same blood stained paredon where their loved one had either already been shot or was scheduled to be.
And will someone please tell me how many people one man has to kill before he is considered a mass murderer? 100? 1000? Who comes up with that number? Guevera was responsible for more deaths than Pinochet, so, who decides who’s a killer or not? Why not a German flag with Hitlers face on it? Of the Hammer and Sickle with Stalins mug on it?
As for those that think that having the image of a murderous marxist/communist in a US presidential campaign headquarters – official or volunteer – is no big thing, I beg to differ. Che Guevara was a self-proclaimed enemy of the United States of America, communist and staunch anti-capitalist and, if Mr. Obama now wants my vote – because I am an American with a vote – he damned well better explain to me why it is I should even contemplate voting for him when his campaign workers are supporters of a man whose ideology I swore I would not support when I swore my loyalty oath to this country the day I became an American Citizen.
I also comepletely disagree with the “juvenilia” justification of the Che guevara image in this instance. The photos arent of a rock concert featuring Santana or of a college campus rife with naive students and leftists professors. Its a campaign headquarters for a US Presidential Election and the flag hanging on the wall isnt some naive “cool chic” thing. Its a political and ideological statement and one that runs contrary to the very core of the ideals that this Republic was founded on.
I suppose those who have no issue with the Butcher’s of la CabaÃ±a’s image anywhere would think differently, had it been your father or your brother or your grandfather whose life had been taken by Che Guevara.
Just what did you restate Tom?
I searched the page and your entry is the single reference to fealty.
I know there are differences between Loyalty and Duty. Subtle differences.
Duty dealing more in the legal realm and Loyalty in the moral. Punishment for one is shame. And for the other it is clearly spelled out in code.
I leave you all to play in your swamp together.
Whenever I encounter someone so adamantly for ‘change’, I ask them to consider putting a bullet in their brain.
A little right-wing humor there. Heh, heh.
Isn’t it great to have all your conservative friends join you today, James?
Unfortunately, you crossed the line when you suggested that Barack Obama may not be a communist.
He is, and the picture of Che proves it. Not only that, he’s a fascist too, of the Islamo-liberal variety, and a Muslim plant. He’s a fascist and a communist all rolled in to one.
It’s amazing that so many of your conservative friends can see this but you can’t. You sure can’t fool that Johnson guy, or his acolytes.
Why is it left-leaning juvenilia to admire Che? He is a revolutionary. The winners always write history, correct? As a capitalist country we may not agree with socialism but let’s not forget that there are two sides to every story.
Granted a lot of those who wear the “Che logo” have no true concept of the man…I know plenty of sociology professors who occasionally where it, while loving America and can logically debate you on your stance. As well could I…but i have to go.
Just my $0.02 Awesome site though.
AMEN…Val Prieto….eloquent and right on the mark.
Regardless of any other factor, that these Obama supporters who hold Che so dearly, ARE in fact working feverishly to get Obama elected, would seem to suggest that THEY at least think their views about Che and the policies he called for and fought for, would find Support in an Obama White House.
I think there are some people who find that linkage disturbing. Voters, who didn’t know about it… and Obama supporters, who’d rather that this connection hadn’t come up… at least until after the election.
And James… I must say, I’m a little surprised. From writing my own blog, I know that years of hipshooting will tend to cause the target to get missed once in a while.
I’m going to be kind an not say more.
Well I see the conversation has afdvanced a little while I was out.
Michael, from the way you posed your question, I wonder if you understood me. I was speaking in the line of what Tlaloc mentioned afterwards, although his figures are laughable.
Estimates are that forty million were killed under Stalin alone. Here are some sources to consider. Krushchev Remembers. Robert Conquest, The Great Terror: A Reassessment. Also, The Harvest of Sorrow: Soviet Collectivization and the Terror-Famine
The cultural Revolution and related famines where millions died. Jerome Chen, Mao and the Chinese Revolution. Ross Terrill, Mao. The Idea that the chinese Communists are responsible for only a million and a half people dying is laughable.
As far as labeling me as a right wing or left wing adherent, I personally reject that sort of thing, because I think the convenient labeling of people and placing them in identity groups is one problem that is too typical of American culture today. I personally reject all leftist thought as too stupid for words, and much right wing talk as not well thought out. I prefer to be a critical thinker, something that was quite popular before current education experts goi a hold of the education system.
RE: Not Necessarily….
“A little right-wing humor there. Heh, heh.” — Pug
More a result of 27 years in the infantry. You develop a dark form of humor with that sort of experience.
I only just recently got involved with politics. Before retirement, I was strictly apolitical.
[Politics is the entertainment division of Industry.]
The President does take a loyalty oath, as do all serving military members, members of Congress, Judges, and I believe all government appointees. So if he is willing to take a loyalty oath when he becomes President what problem can he possibly have with wearing an American flag pin? It’s the American Constitution after all.
Does it really irritate you that the person who wants to lead our nation is expected to swear loyalty to its Constitution? How sad it if does.
I don’t expect every citizen to wear a flag pin. I could care less if they do or do not.
I do expect our fricken President to wear one though.
Oh, and Che was a murdering communist bastard. But you knew that.
Speaking of labeling Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-OH) says “I’ve talked to Barack a lot about his Patriot Corporation Act, which is not trade per se, but it’s certainly part of the economic package around globalization. The Patriot Corporation Act has not gotten the attention that I would hope it would. But, basically it says that if you play by the rules, if you pay decent wages, health benefits, pension; do your production here; don’t resist unionization on neutral card check, then you will be designated a “Patriot Corporationâ€ and you will get tax advantages and some [preference] on government contracts.” http://hotair.com/archives/2008/02/12/obama-wants-to-define-patriot-corporations/
Once again, people will search high and low to find the slightest imperfection in the armor known as Barack Obama.
Someone should let those people down there in Houston know that the guy on that flag was a violent and unremitting enemy of the country Obama is seeking to lead. That some of you on here are trying to defend the guy–well it says a couple of things about you: (a) either you sympathize with his cause; and/or (b) you are ignorant of his history. Che Guevara was FAR from a liberal. Don’t believe your college professors! They lie too.
The whole world is lying to you! Only the USA is right! Give me a break.
Problem is, KB… they didn’t have far to search. All they needed to do was look at his own people… those looking to get him elected.
“Once again, people will search high and low to find the slightest imperfection in the armor known as Barack Obama.” — KB
…. It doesn’t take much. And….
…. It’s pretty d—-d obvious.
So….how do you explain it all away?
[Obama’s campaign establishes a new standard in obfuscation, ambiguity, & equivocation.]
If any of you Obama detractors think or feel that he knew any thing about this you are reaching. There is no ways around it.
Look at my first comment, KB.
THAT’S what there’s no way around.
Ok Ok. Maybe the third time will be the charm. If not, you are obviously being willfully obtuse and refuse to understand my point.
You said this:
Which caused my reply that there is a fundamental difference between pledging duty to a list of rules and to a monarch. I pledge loyalty to my landlord, by your definition. It is disengenuous to compare an oath to a Document to an oath to a King. The Constitution is not a monarchy, and was designed to prevent one. What is so hard to grasp exactly?
“If any of you Obama detractors think or feel that he knew any thing about this you are reaching. There is no ways around it.” — KB
….this isn’t the only bit of evidence.
Indeed, there are two other items, I’m aware of.
 His refusal to wear a flag pin.
 His ‘refusal’ to salute while they were playing the national anthem.
There’s a pattern of behavior developing that could hold up in a court of law, vis-a-vis a suit regarding ‘prejudice’.
But you might be correct. However, I’ve still not seen any official pronouncement of his repudiation of these workers and their pro-Che banners.
Have you seen anything like that? I mean beyond, ‘those are not people on my payroll’?
[Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times in enemy action. — Auric Goldfinger]
This is not even real news. Probably only FoxNews will give it much coverage…
But honestly, anyone who thinks Obama wants to (or even has the ability to) transform an entire government (like Bush tried to) are sad.
“Oh no…Commie Obama is gonna sell us to the Soviets!”
Please…that’s like me saying that the “volunteer” in question was an infiltrated Hillary supporting rat….a delusion.
TO: Tom in Texas
RE: The ‘Hard’ Part?
“The Constitution is not a monarchy, and was designed to prevent one. What is so hard to grasp exactly?” — Tom in Texas
Your inability to grasp that duty and loyalty are intertwined.
[For additional information, please re-read the message above.]
I strongly suggest that Obama makes an official statement and distance himself from Che and the Cuban Flag as quickly as possible. This scandal has real legs especially among the Cuban population in Florida. I have enough friends of Cuban background to know that both Castro and Che are, with good reason, hated. Florida is one of the must carry states for November. And the Cuban population is very strong there.
This is the first crack I’ve seen in Obama’s organization. And it is a major crack. Even volunteers should know how the office is to be decorated and should have enough sense to put up posters of Obama and the American Flag.
They “imply”, you “infer”. It is not up to you to attempt to ascertain what you infer is more accurate than what they “imply”, since, well, they are the most pertinent people on the planet into the insights of what THEY mean.
If they say they aren’t implying, then your inference is incorrect.
The same can be said about people who hold the flag of the Confederate States of America in such high regard. So can I assume that since the KKK uses that particular flag, which by the way flies at a capitol building, might want their ideas supported in the White House as well? Do I feel the US government is condoning the KKK thoughts and actions? No I do not but you can not control what someone is feeling or thinking.
RE: Stop Me, If….
“But honestly, anyone who thinks Obama wants to (or even has the ability to) transform an entire government (like Bush tried to) are sad.” — Carlos
…you’ve heard this one before….
Hope that helps….but I have my doubts….
[There is none so blind as he who will not see.]
Again you are blaming communists for famine. Strangely social-political systems don’t control things like drought and permafrost. When you are reduced to blaming the weather on communists you’ve long since lost the argument
Reread what I wrote. The cultural revolution supposedly killed 1.5 million. The earlier “real” revolution killed something like 2-5 million. Hell, let’s call it 10 million for Mao. That’s certainly quite the butcher’s bill, but it doesn’t even remotely compare to the big leagues. Again the black plague killed 75 million at a time when the world population was substantially smaller.
Don’t blame me, you’re the one claiming communism killed more than any other source.
(BTW malaria, despite the availability of treatments now, kills between 1 and 2 million every year)
drip, drip, drip…
RE: KKK & Confederate Flags
“Do I feel the US government is condoning the KKK thoughts and actions? No I do not but you can not control what someone is feeling or thinking.” — KB
The KKK mis-appropriated that flag; courtesy of General Bedford Forrest.
As for implying that the US government accepts it, as it flies over some state capital, has got to be one of the most stupid thinks I’ve read in a LONG time.
Better read Bruce Catton’s account of the Civil War, as it is obvious your education in American Civics has failed you.
[Education: Replacing an empty mind with an open one.]
“(BTW malaria, despite the availability of treatments now, kills between 1 and 2 million every year)” — Tlaloc
…not to be too obtuse.
It makes you look….’silly’.
[The territory behind rhetoric is too often mined with equivocation.]
Explain again how exactly Obama is a secret IslamoCommie because an unpaid volunteer has a Che flag that he never knew existed, but the federal government isn’t responsible for the actions of individual states within that it IS aware of.
Please note that I agree with your point in regards to South Carolina. In the interest of consistency, you may want to revise your list of allowed flags.
Put another way:
Honestly, and no personal offense, but that’s very sad.
3 I think. But what you are suggesting is that a person who kills three is equal to one who kills millions…which is actually kind of stalin-esque, now that I think about it. 🙂
Given the way the US treated communists I’m hardly surprised. Nor am I particularly offended. Martin Luther King was an enemy of the state too. Just goes to show you that being an enemy of the US government is not by and of itself a bad thing- because often the US government is quite simply wrong.
(this is not to equate King and Che by any means, merely to point out how ridiculous the “enemy-of-the-state two minutes of hate is”)
What if our fathers or brothers were killed during the US backed Bay of Pigs invasion? Are we then right to irrationally blame the various cuban exile groups (who pushed for such measures)for anything and everything regardless of facts?
Maybe at some point reason should triumph over emotion.
Just consider it…
Shot at and missed (though it was hardly exhilarating).
TO: Tom in Texas
“Explain again how exactly Obama is a secret IslamoCommie because an unpaid volunteer has a Che flag that he never knew existed, but the federal government isn’t responsible for the actions of individual states within that it IS aware of.” — Tom in Texas
…the subject here, Tom?
“Please note that I agree with your point in regards to South Carolina. In the interest of consistency, you may want to revise your list of allowed flags.” — Tom in Texas
You and Obama and his ‘staffers’/volunteers can fly any fool flag you want.
But they shouldn’t be surprised if someone takes exception to it, and with good reason. Especially if they’re running for public office.
[The second office in the government is honorable and easy; the first is but a splendid misery. — Thomas Jefferson]
RE: About Overthrowing the Government….
“But honestly, anyone who thinks Obama wants to (or even has the ability to) transform an entire government (like Bush tried to) are sad.” — Carlos
Something I just happened upon that might be of interest to you….and others….
I’ll have to look further into this, to verify its authenticity. But it certainly looks interesting and correlates with your comment.
Thanks for your permission. I’ll continue to fly my American and Texas flags (in that order), knowing full well I’ve got Chuckie’s permission to do so.
I agree with you, insofar that anyone can fly whatever flag they want in this country. People can fly the Stars and Bars, knowing full well it will turn of African Americans. People can fly Che pictures, knowing full well it will turn off Cuban immigrants. Now, please explain what on earth this has to do with Obama’s views on Guevara.
The minute the man flies a flag of Cuba behind him is the minute this is an issue for anyone other than those already disposed towards hating the man.
Is Mr. Joyner actually suggesting that a candidate seeking the Presidency should not be required to swear oaths (Pledge of Allegiance) of loyalty to the country he seeks to govern?
TO: Chuck Pelto
RE: Your posting style….
“Thought interrupting quote” — Same name as the “TO” above
….makes me want to hit you.
“because often the US government is quite simply wrong” – Tlaloc
Oh right…thaaaat explains the mass exodus from the US.
‘Taking that loyalty oath is, for most if not all that do, by far one of the proudest moments in our lives.’
“Honestly, and no personal offense, but that’s very sad.”
Save your pity….that remark only further emboldens me to pledge my allegiance to my country, my birthright.
Tell me oh “enlightened one” do you reside in this country you deplore? or do you sit in a cave somewhere and snort to yourself at the meaningless measure of life?
If Che is such a “great” person, why are these people having to “explain” his actions in life? Just more “spin” to make him a “hero”. Also, America is “still” thriving. Where is this “hope” we keep hearing about. “Hope” is for people who want others to do for them. God forbid they actually were successful in life!
oh and furthermore….
I will not be browbeat, scolded or pitied for supporting my country.
And if Obama cannot muster the strength to slam these staffers, paid or volunteer, for that flag…then he sure as hell shouldn’t be President of this country in times such as these.
Goes to the measure of a man.
It’s hard to tell sometimes, just what causes an election campaign to become derailed. Let’s look at some previous examples.
John Kerry makes statements about his Vietnam war time experiences in Cambodia, and has to back track based in part on push back from Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.
Howard Dean’s campaign falters during the primaries, and he utters the Scream-Heard-‘Round-The-World, and his campaign promptly tanks.
Michael Dukakis has a picture taken in a tank wearing an over sized helmet that makes him look like a dork.
During a Presidential debate, Gerald Ford has a brain fart, and forgets that Poland has a repressive government that is in thrall to the Soviet Union.
Gary Hart gets caught in an affair with Donna Rice. buh-bye.
Ed Muskie responds to what he feels is an unfair newspaper article attacking his wife, gets emotional, and the press reports that he broke down and cried. His campaign never recovered.
Richard Nixon appears on television with a 5 o’clock shadow and a shifty look, and fails his Charisma Check against the much more charismatic John F. Kennedy.
I’m sure all those examples are oversimplifications of problems experienced by those campaigns, and people could probably come up with a few dozen example over the last 50 years or so from other failed campaigns as well. In hindsight, though, those are the things that are remembered, rightly or wrongly.
This may be nothing, or it may push enough hot buttons throughout the nation that it has an impact.
At this level, politicians rarely make outright blunders, but trivial events, maybe even events beyond their control, sometimes have catastrophic effects on public opinion. Since Obama seems to running on charisma and identity alone, rather than substance and clearly defined policy, a shift in perception has the potential to crucial.
Or not. Check back in November.
Why are we concerned about the Cuban flag Obama want even say the pledge to the American flag or put his hand over his heart. He says this is against his “rights” What rights is he not an American?
True we are usually at our worst when dealing with others. I’ve often said that communists tend to inflict horrors on their own people while we export ours.
heh. So easy to manipulate, no wonder you give allegiance so easily.
Do you think I would care nearly so much about American atrocities were I not myself an American? Nevermind, obviously you prefer to be told what to think so I’ll just answer- yes, I’m an american citizen. By birth.
It isn’t your choice. I do pity you, because you confuse or conflate unthinking obedience with support. Anyone who celebrates acquiescence is indeed a wretched creature.
“….makes me want to hit you.” — Michael
You’ve just comumicated a threat
[[incredibly rude and childish comments should be deleted]
“Michael Dukakis has a picture taken in a tank wearing an over sized helmet that makes him look like a dork.” — Bugz
I thought that was the sort of expression that some people wear when they’ve just soiled their pants.
Some of those M1 MBT drivers drive it like it were a sports car.
[My other car is an IFV.]
Here is where reading will educate you.
Kruschchev himself admits that the five year plan caused famine in the Soviet Union. The result, around twenty million died.
The same thing happened in China, and the results are unknown exactly how many died, but the Communist government itaelf admits to thirty five million.
There is a difference of order of magnitude when one speaks of millions versus tens of millions.
Here is a clue. There are more people living on the planet today than have existed throughout time. All of these people are still alive.
Your figures are dubious based on what I just said.
Tom in Texas thank you for illustrating my point.
“It isn’t your choice. I do pity you, because you confuse or conflate unthinking obedience with support. Anyone who celebrates acquiescence is indeed a wretched creature.”
It is my choice …which is why I support my country.
Ah… so you’re insane. Couldn’t you have said that in the first place and saved me the time of trying to address you rationally?
hint- no the current population of the earth does *not* outnumber all the people who have ever lived. Not even close. For instance in 1950 the world population was 2.5 billion. The vast majority of those people are dead now (someone born in 1950 would be 58 today, today the world average life expectancy is 67). SO we only have to go back a mere 60 years to account for a third of our current population. And Human beings go back at least a million years.
Just look here:
add up the world population figures for 1700, 1750, 1800, 1850, 1900, and 1950 and it’s already over 7 billion people. We currently have less than 7 billion. And that was only going back 250 years!
But we’re back to me trying to reason with insanity, so I lose.
You misunderstand Becca. You said you will not be pitied. *That* isn’t your choice, since, personally, I don’t let others determine what I think.
So, yes, you will be pitied, Becca, that’s a fact. I can state that unequivocally.
“Why are we concerned about the Cuban flag Obama want even say the pledge to the American flag or put his hand over his heart.” — Linda
It’s just, as we would say in the Army, another ‘indicator’.
[A healthy sense of paranoia keeps a soldier alive on the field of battle.]
P.S. Politics IS a battlefield….
Your link to world-population Wikipedia shows North America’s pop in 1900 at 82 million.
But you said earlier…
How does that compute? Just curious.
What’s the question? Loses among the native americans or north america are estimated to be up to 100 million. The north american population in 1900 (depleted tribes + European settlers and their descendants) was 82 million.
Where’s the conflict?
FLASH!!!CHE GUEVERA WINS VIRGINIA!
To: Val Prieto
Rich former Cuban’s don’t get my sympathy. I myself am also a nationalized American and that does not mean that I have to be brainwashed into thinking that a capitalist ideology is Heavensent.
Capitalism like Socialism is a human construct. Both have their flaws and their merits. Capitalism and it’s reckless offspring “globalization” have been and will be responsible for the oppression of billions world wide at the benefit of…you guessed it..the West.
I’m proud to be an American but a NEW American who DOES believe in the OLD Constitution but who is also worldly and who believes that we need not impose ourselves on others. How would you feel if Bin Laden took over the U.S. and imposed his conservative beliefs on all of us. And what did we just do in Iraq?
Do you know that we removed Saddam Hussein from all the textbooks printed since our conquest? Who are we to rewrite THEIR history?
Cuba has it’s history, for better or worse. Castro has his faults…he went a little wacky at times but you forget that initially he was welcomed to the U.S. as was El Che as heroes for their Revolucion! and overthrow of a corrupt regime.
I don’t like Castro much but I like El Che…and though they were friends they had a falling out towards the end and Castro (though he denies it) turned a blind eye to his murder for political reasons.
We will never get to see El Che’s vision…since Cuba as we know it is not that…
Eventhough Cuba has the worlds highest literacy rate and universal healthcare. We should look at our shortcomings before judging others.
Though I can understand your denouncing of Castro, I don’t believe you can juxtapose those claims on Che Guevara.
I would tell some of you to READ UP but that may not be enough. You might have to change your perspective on the world.
I love the U.S. But we are not that clean and I for one am not ashamed to say that and take steps towards cleaning it up to set a REAL example!
I’m a Republican. I think BO should put Che posters up at all his campaign headquarters. Power to the people!
Feel free to use this one.
When you read that Barack Obama is “the most liberal Senator”, or one of the most liberal, that means the modern-day definition of “liberal” – which is to say, socialist. So Obama already believes in the economic underpinnings of Marxism.
He built his career as a “community organiser” in Chicago – that is, he was their own little Sharpton.
His autobiography, “Dreams from my Father”, made much of his conversion in Jeremiah Wright’s racist and antiAmerican church. You know, the one that recently created a “Trumpeter” award to grant to Louis Farrakhan. I just watched a Youtube video in which his pastor condemned the US in its attempts to roll back Communist dictatorships in Nicaragua and Grenada, and even the dictatorship in Panama – and you can watch it too: here.
Barack Obama does indeed bear a burden of proof, “some obligation to declare that he’s anti-Communist and pro-American”.
This doesn’t even touch on the creepy personality-cult this Liberal Fascist is promulgating…
I see this site has now attracted some new, “anti-globalist” fans, like Carlos a few posts up. Enjoy your new friends, Mr Joyner! Make sure to keep the crocodiles well fed –
Chuckle. When interviewing Iraqi civilians the VAST majority say that when the Marines arrived they were very respectful and generally treated them humanely. They say once the Army took over it was a different story and disrespect was commonplace.
My brother is a Marine and personally…I’ve met many and respect them…the REAL soldiers who enter FIRST in battles and put a place on lock. The Army just holds down what the pro’s struggled to take over.
The Army as is gets little respect from me…might as well be a sailor. Not to disrespect…because Air Force, Coast Guard, all that is necessary but stop tooting your own horn…Army bootcamp is wack…just one step above the swabees.
I remember my friend was in Airforce training and he had countless hours to play Playstation and call friends.
As Marines say…Complacency will get you killed.
Paranoia? That’s not necessary man…get that craziness out your head.
I had to get that off my chest.
To David Ross:
I am anti-globalist towards globalism as we know it today. There is no system of checks and balances with it.
I believe in social responsibility…and that doesn’t mean I blindly support welfare and the such as most “conservatives” would have you believe.
I’m not THAT liberal…I have some “conservative” ideals as well. I don’t, however, believe in allowing those with the deepest pockets to impose themselves as global moral authority.
Like it or not there WILL need to be huge policy change in the coming decade if we are to avoid massive global strife that will eventually result in a backlash against this country.
We CAN maintain our sovereignty without raping the rest of the world…we do only have 4% of the worlds’ population afterall.
I love this nation but I will never be a blind patriot.
congratulations you actually elicited a spit take. If you really think american leftists are socialists you’ve been extremely sheltered.
The dems are only slightly less of a plutocratic party than the reps, they just favor different monied groups. Dems love lawyers, unions, and doctors. Reps love wall street, defense contractors, and megachurches. *Everybody* gets out the kneepads when Agriculture and pharma come knocking.
Right on Tlaloc. Dems and Reps are friendlier with one another than we may think.
It’s to the benefit of both that this stupid electoral college and superdelegate business exists in the first place.
Not quite, a threat would have been something along the lines of “I’m going to hit you”, which I clearly didn’t say.
But in all seriousness, bottompost please, your particular style of posting, which I’ve never seen done before, is extremely annoying.
I must be stubborn in addition to insane, but I will continue to argue with you. Then both of us can get roundly cursed out by Mr. Joyner for occupying his blog to argue over populations. Under those circumstances, I will not be to blame, as I am insane. You will have to suffer all the unfortunate consequences. I envy your sanity, and wish you the best of luck with that.
In order to estimate populations, mathematical models must be used. Only recently, with a wider use of census as a measure for population do we attain any degree of certainty about world population. The question is how did we get to where we are today? Obviously, the factors that are involved in making such calculations are infinite, since we are talking about human beings. In addition, methodology plays an important role, as do other assumptions, such as the actual lifespan of the human race. Thus, an evolutionist who believes that the human race has existed for perhaps millions of years will have a different view than will a creationist who believes the world has existed for six thousand years. I do not intend to defend either view. Apart from the fact that we may have to agree to disagree, I want to draw attention to the possibility that population numbers may be inflated. However, whether you accept that particular idea or not, the original point of disagreement is the order of magnitude of Communist death and distruction, which is documented by a wide variety of sources, some of which I mentioned, including Communist sources. Communism has been the single most destructive force this planet has known.
Returning to the mathematical model of population growth, the assumptions that you use determine the results you have. For example, it would be foolish to assume that there is an orderly arithmetical progression to population growth, which is an argument that the large numbers of population are a relatively new phenomenon. This bears up to examination of census numbers. One can for example review the USA census to see how rapidly the population has expanded. Under these circumstances, the slaughter of millions is also a relatively new phenomenon, invented and perfected by totalitarian regimes, namely National Socialists and Communists, although one would have to admit that Saddam Hussein was giving it a pretty good shot.
Fine, but where’s the support for your contention that we have more people now than ever before? I gave you my evidence for the contrary…
no matter what the numbers say, huh? See this is the problem with these “sources” they are heavily invested in making the communists boogey men, much like the CIA vastly, and intentionally, overestimating soviet capabilities during the cold war.
Take this as an example-
it’s absurdly exaggerated in part by conflating unrelated events (i.e. famines) with things communists *actually* controlled. But even if we take it to be gospel truth it gives a grand total of 94 million deaths attributable to communism.
I’ve already pointed out that in north america ALONE christianity may have topped that. Heck let’s say Christianity only murdered 50 million in North America. The spaniards killed another 20 million Incas through forced labor and disease (if you want to count weather related famine against communists it’s only fair to blame small pox on christians). And that’s to say nothing of the other South American indigenous people. Add to that a few thousands for the each of the Spanish inquisition and the Portugese inquisition. Add a few more millions for various random bits of violence like the St. Bartholowmew’s day massacre. Oh, don’t forget the crusades! Let’s call them 50-50 as for who gets the blame, christians or muslims. Oh and we haven’t even touched on Christians in the orient, or Africa for that matter.
See my point? Communism has not, at all, caused more death than christianity. It isn’t even close.
Tlaloc read this report:
I’m an anarchist. I’m very okay with the thesis that power is a bad thing. I just object to the idea that communists with power are bad while capitalists with power are groovy.
Now it makes sense. Obama has the name of a terrorist and he has a flag of a terrorist. His funding is probably coming from terrorist organizations.
-Fine, but where’s the support for your contention that we have more people now than ever before?
1. One source that I have in my library at this moment is United Nations Estimates and Projections of Urban, Rural, and City Populations, 1950- 2025, axtended to AD 2050. G. Gappert and R.V. Knight, Cities in the 21st Century. A. Shostak, Seven Scenarios of Urban Change. S.N. Eisenstadt, Modernization: Protest and Change. I have a copy of Scientific Americans book on Cities, which is a good source for the population dynamics which I mentioned. Gerald Breese, Urbanization in Developing Countries.
2. mathematical model. The whole point of bringing up the mathematical model is so that you can do your own thinking. If we were to do a mathematical model for population growth, what factors would we include? Well, one is that world population maintains a positive growth rate at more than 3 percent, which means that populations grow faster than the rate needed to reproduce themselves. Another factor is that the current number of people in this world includes more than one generation, which means that the current figure has a history that extends back into the twentieth Century, which is when`populations started booming.
-no matter what the numbers say, huh? See this is the problem with these “sources” they are heavily invested in making the communists boogey men, much like the CIA vastly, and intentionally, overestimating soviet capabilities during the cold war.
Kruschchev is invested in making the Communists boogey men? Do you know who Kruschchev is? Once again, he made a direct connection between the Soviet five year plan and famine in the Soviet Union. The same with the United Nations. Those are not right wing sources.
-I’ve already pointed out that in north america ALONE christianity may have topped that. Heck let’s say Christianity only murdered 50 million in North America.
I am sure that you are well read on the latest liberation theology, but your contention that Christianity murdered 50 million people in North America is absurd. First of all, I question your numbers. The actual number of native Americans living in the USA at the time of Europeans arriving in the USA was probably no more than 25 million. Second, there was no murder spree sponsored by any Christian denomination. I suspect that you want to lay that at the feet of Europeans. While I will not defend all Europeans from that charge, I will defend most. That was not in their interest. Third, most native populations died from disease.
I just saw your other comment. I would not support the idea that any power misused is good, whether communist or capitalist, although I would not draw that dichotomy. I assume that an anarchist’s position is that all power is bad, and I would have to disagree with that position. Could an anarchist honestly believe that the world could function in a powerless context?
I should also point out that I am not saying that capitalists are good. I am saying that communists are in essence evil. Evil because they have bought into an evil philosophy.
I do not agree with the Marxist description of capitalism, although I can believe that there is such a thing as a Marxist-defined capitalist, i.e. greedy, cruel, etc. I just do not think it describes entrepeneurs in the American model.
RE: [OT] Jealousy….
“The Army as is gets little respect from me…might as well be a sailor. Not to disrespect…because Air Force, Coast Guard, all that is necessary but stop tooting your own horn…Army bootcamp is wack…just one step above the swabees.” — Carlos
….is unbecoming on you, Carlos.
[Every man thinks meanly of himself for never having been a soldier, or a sailor with hard duty at sea. — Samuel Johnson]
First of all, I am the son of a welder. A blue collar average Joe, that at the age of 75 is still working. I can assure you, I dont want or need your sympathy. Your jumping to that “rich former Cuban” conclusion only proves, EXACTLY, how brainwashed YOU are about the issue.
Capitalism, like Socialism, as you say, may be a human construct, but I , for one, prefer to make my own way, earn my own keep, and be responsbile for my own, a la capitalism, than live like a beggar and thief, forced to be blind, deaf and mute, which is always the result of that human construct “Socialism.”
Your historical knowledge of castro and che is peripheral, if not ridiculously inane, at best. I can tell you that I need not read about che guevara because my family experienced him first hand and whose legacy we still painfully live with. And your comments on Cuba’s literacy rates and universal healthcare only prove your myopia.
No where in my orginal comment did I state or imply that this country is perfect. It has its flaws just like any other country in the world or in history. But I, unlike you, am grateful for the privilege of being an American, flaws and all. And I, unlike you, will do everything that I can do to prevent the ruination of this adopted country of mine by that human construct of Socialism.
BTW Are you perhaps Argentinian?
Oh, and, if you believe che guevara was all about social justice, you have been duped by the greatest propaganda machination in modern day history.
Once they have accepted the brainwashing, Val, mountains of evidence and rivers of blood won’t get them wise again.
Most of these cats posting here have never lived under real communist oppression (or real national socialist oppression, for that matter). They have only second-hand ‘truth’ they picked up from similarly brainwashed college professors and disaffected high school teachers.
Experience is the best university.
RE: All Too True
“Once they have accepted the brainwashing, Val, mountains of evidence and rivers of blood won’t get them wise again.” — ptg
I wonder if Carlos has read The True Believer.
[Don’t bother me with facts, I KNOW the Truth!]
Have you ever argued with a muslim about the koran or the life of “the prophet?” They assume from the start (with a priori certainty) that the koran is all good and true and argue backwards from there. So argument is really a waste of time. By way of analogy, you can point to as many sources as you like to demonstrate the carnage committed in the name of communism and you will receive one of two responses from the true believers of, let’s call them anti-capitalists since most are wise enough these days to at least to disclaim the communist moniker: 1) the falsity of the fact (e.g., “80 million Chinese didn’t die–that’s just pro-capitalist propaganda, ya sheeple!”; or 2) the corruption of the ideal by human hands (e.g., Stalin et al.). It’s a form of insanity, frequently sarcastic and superior, and sometimes entertaining, insanity, but insanity nonetheless. Accepting certain facts about the nature of communism (a totalitarianism certain of its own virtue equals catastrophe always, and especially so when contrary to all that history and biology teaches of human nature) is not an endorsement of the inherent virtuousness of capitalism.
Leftist symbolism such as that evident in the display of Che Guevara propaganda, seems to be important to the Barack Obama campaign. Four months ago, I pointed out another example of it in a post, Photo on Obama Web Site Raises Questions. In that post, I questioned the subliminal message the liberal Democrat hoped to convey by posting on his campaign website a photo of Obama sitting in front of a framed photo of Muhammad Ali standing over a knocked-down opponent in a boxing ring. Oh, the symbolism!
Believe I’m not jealous in the slightest. Perhaps I was a little harsh in my statement but on the contrary (as difficult as it may seem to an old dog that bases their self worth and identity on being a vet) I am PROUD to not join a military that sends me off to fight unjust wars. As much as I admire ALL soldiers (unlike many Americans who only admire their own) I feel that sadly most of those that died in Iraq died in vain… But I’ll let Bush and his cronies carry that blood on their hands. Most military (though not all) and many right winged americans find it hard to come to that realization…though they know it’s true.
All you oldschool vets…the military is different now. But like then, it still indoctrinates you to a “conservative” mindframe. But of course…which side pours billions into defense blindly and even when it’s a waste?
You probably support the PATRIOT ACT as well eventhough evidence shows that most arrests that have been credited to it are for illegal music downloads. Talk about trading liberties for protection and in the end losing both.
P.S. That little quote at the end just shows your baseless arrogance. I pity that at your age your ego still controls your sense of identity…and once upon a time you found a great way to stroke it…joining the easy Army…why not the Marines? Don’t get me started on the differences. Moving on…
One, I’m not Argentinian…don’t care much for their arrogance anyway (I know I’m using broad strokes…forgive me) but other S. Americans will understand.
Your resentment for Socialism appears to be a result of your assumption that it is automatically linked with Communism and Totalitarianism…just because Castro iron fisted your island does NOT substantiate that. God knows it must’ve sucked…but hate Castro and his interpretation and manipulation of Socialism, not Socialism as a inanimate concept.
I believe we should attempt to develop a Socialist Democracy in this country. I believe in keeping elements of capitalism as well as elements of socialism…and I believe whole-heartedly in TRUE democracy..which is not what we have now. If we’re going to be taking taxes out anyway? (That’s freaking socialism!) then we might as well spend it for the well being of ALL…meaning universal healthcare and the like. The mega-wealthy won’t starve believe me, they won’t even stop being wealthy…maybe just forfeit a vacation.
There are other peaceful and prosperous socialist democracies in the world. But U.S. greed (don’t deny its severity) won’t allow us to NOT be the “Father of the Globe”…
We MUST consume disproportionate amounts of all resources at the expense of underdeveloped country’s who will NEVER get a chance to catch up.
I bet you the sheer word Socialism strikes fear and hate in your heart..so much so that you probably would never even hear out the argument for a socialist democracy or at least something resembling it. It won’t happen in your lifetime, so don’t worry…but I have hope for the future.
Get over your trauma and stop blaming an idea (that is NOT…inherently evil if adapted democratically and in moderation) and blame people if you have to blame someone (ie. Castro)
I’m done here and I think I stated my position. This little entrepreneur’s gotta get back to work. 😉
You guys can continue arguing.
communism has a great murder count,congrats to the hero’s, forefathers, and masters of the liberals, but as the story goes the the student shall soon overtake the master with the murder count of abortion.
RE: [OT] Jealousy….
“Believe I’m not jealous in the slightest.” — Carlos
….manifests itself when people keep bringing things up, like you do. I’ve noticed that during my 57 year sojourn on this ball-o-dirt.
You’ll notice it too, in due time.
If you didn’t care about it, you’d have shut-up about it by now.
[Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. — Winston Churchill]
I don’t want to upset Obama, but he is going to HAVE TO TAKE A LOYALTY OATH if he is sworn in as president.
Or is he going to balk at that?
Posted by Walter L. Newton | February 12, 2008 | 12:23 pm
Probably not, what with him having been sworn in on the bible when he became a senator, and what with him leading the oath of alliegance when he presides over a session in the chamber, and what with him being a christian and a member of the US federal legislature.
Obama didn’t stick this flag up himself, volunteers set the office up, volunteers decorated it. I could set up a Clinton or a McCain volunteer organisational office, invite Fox news round and have everyone march around in Nazi uniforms with ‘Deutchland uber Alles’ blasting out of the speakers. Would that make Clinton or McCain nazis who would have to apologize for Hitler? No.
Is that your simplistic pseudo-psychological way of getting the last word?
Well I think I proved why I am far from jealous…It’s pathetic that your only defense is “You wan’t to be like me”. Wow.
You’re so self-righteous that you can’t fathom anyone not wanting to be a soldier. That’s like me telling you that because you don’t like hip hop music that you’re really just jealous and want to be a rapper.
Keep up those little quotes, though, that you subjectively choose from others who support your belief system…they’re cute.
RE: [OT] Is It More Likely….
“Is that your simplistic pseudo-psychological way of getting the last word?” — Carlos
….that you’re ‘projecting’?
RE: On the Other Hand….
….and a more significant matter at that….
“I’m done here and I think I stated my position. This little entrepreneur’s gotta get back to work. 😉
You guys can continue arguing.” — Carlos
…could it be you’re a consummate liar?
Thought you’d blown this ‘pop stand’, compadre.
Or do you suffer from Mr. Bill’s problems with definitions of commonly held words in the English language, e.g., ‘is’. In your case, ‘done’ and ‘here’.
[No man has a good enough memory to be a successful liar. — Abraham Lincoln]
“Obama didn’t stick this flag up himself, volunteers set the office up, volunteers decorated it. I could set up a Clinton or a McCain volunteer organisational office, invite Fox news round and have everyone march around in Nazi uniforms with ‘Deutchland uber Alles’ blasting out of the speakers. Would that make Clinton or McCain nazis who would have to apologize for Hitler? No.” — Chris
You could do that.
However, would Fox News say that you were a volunteer setting things up so that Obama’s people could take over in a couple of days?
That’s what Fox reported. These people were setting things up so that Obama’s regular staffers could move in within the week.
There’s something of a difference. Don’t you think?
On the other hand, I’ve yet to see Obama’s officials repudiate the presence of those FLAGS [Note: There were two of them there.].
All I’ve seen is a report that someone said they were ‘inappropriate’. That’s pretty ‘weak’.
Putting up a shrine to Ronald Reagan in such a place is ‘inappropriate’.
Hanging a flag of someone who was out to destroy the country is well beyond ‘inappropriate’.
Don’t you think?
[When once your point of view is changed, the very thing which was so damning becomes a clue to the truth. — Sherlock Holmes]
TO: Chris, et al.
RE: Additional Information
Looks like they ID’d the person who hung the flag(s). Check out….
I’ve not confirmed this, but they seem to be fairly confident with their research.
I find the report that the individual was a bloggeron Obama’s official web-site PARTICULARLY interesting.
If the report is accurate, along with all the other information, including a photo of her and Barack, I think it pretty well cinches the Obama connection.
Hope that helps…..but we’ll see.
[Friends, n., people who borrow my books and put wet glasses on them.]
Isabel seems to be that sort of friend for Barack.
P.S. Maybe, Chris, if you got a photo of you and McCain together, it might help you with your scenario’s credibility.
Don’t you think?
Fox News? I’d guess “yes”, whether you did it for Clinton or McCain.
….if it were true.
In Chris’ scenario, he would NOT be setting it up for McCain. He’d just be doing it to show that anyone can do it. But not ‘officially’.
To determine whether or not the facilities WERE going to be used ‘officially’ by Obama’s campaign,
it would be interesting to see who was paying the rent on the facility.
It should be traceable via the McCain-Feingold Election Reform Act. Such information is supposed to be reported to the Federal Elections Commission (FEC).
Has anyone done the research?
When did that become a part of Fox New’s reporting?
And for the love of God, please stop posting like that.
Presidential candidates will be photographed with a lot of people, and can’t fully know the political and ideological backgrounds of everyone who wants a quick photo with them when they are ‘doing the rounds.’
There will be extreme leftist elements campaigning for Democratic candidates and extreme rightist elements campaining for Republican candidates. They’ve probably all (inadvertantly) been photographed with and met some maniacs.
Chris is right, I have seen lots of pictures of John McCain next to crazies like Ron Paul, but we don’t hold that against him.
Chuckle: How am I a liar? Actually, keep it to yourself. You blew my mind with that irrelevant accusation.
Seems like I hit a nerve soldier (and I use the term loosely)
“When did that become a part of Fox New’s reporting?” — Michael
….report them to the FCC. Or accept it as reality.
RE: Prepare Yourself….
“And for the love of God, please stop posting like that.” — Michael
P.S. Celebrate my diversity.
RE: A Picture Is Worth a Thousand Words
“Presidential candidates will be photographed with a lot of people, and can’t fully know the political and ideological backgrounds of everyone who wants a quick photo with them when they are ‘doing the rounds.'” — Chris
But we’re not talking about just a picture. We’re talking about a picture of an unrepentant Marxist who is, reportedly, setting up an office for said presidential candidate.
Your scenario was for YOU to bring that sort of ‘racist’ allegation against McCain by setting up a similar office with Nazi paraphenalia and music playing to show to Fox News.
I said you’d get a better report if you could get a picture of you and McCain smiling into the camera together to show to Fox News.
So. Stop whining and go out and do it. It was YOUR idea. Why are you waffling? Get off your dead forth-point-of-contact and do something about it.
[Deeds Not Words — Motto of the 22d Infantry Regiment]
…been able to figure out who was paying the rent on the office facilities where Fox did their report?
RE: [OT] How? And Other Stuff and Nonsense
“Chuckle: How am I a liar?” — Carlos
Re-read the earlier post.
“Actually, keep it to yourself.” — Carlos
Are you schitzie, too?
“You blew my mind with that irrelevant accusation.” — Carlos
It wasn’t an accusation, compadre. Go back and pay particular attention to the punctuation. It’ll give you a clue.
“Seems like I hit a nerve soldier (and I use the term loosely)” — Carlos
Try not to get too big a head. I’ve been abused by the best. And you are, cher ami, nothing compared to Colonel ‘No Slack’ Stack.
Hope that helps. But I have my doubts about that. But, who knows, you could be merely a slow learner.
[Oh what tangled webs they weave, when first they practice to deceive.]
i can’t believe nobody else sees the irony in this. there’s no need for a campaign office in a communist govt.
i’d love to see your response if they found a david duke poster in a huckabee campaign office. you’d be singing a different tune i’m sure.
frankly, i’m disgusted by racists and murderers like guevara. and at least, it shows a lack of judgement by his campaign which concerns me. at most, it says a great deal about their motives and philosophy.
I’m curious if anybody asked the volunteer if they even know who that was on the flag. In a day and age when most people wouldn’t recognize JFK from a picture, it’s entirely plausible for a 2nd or 3rd generation Cuban American to not recognize a picture of Che Guevara.
Granted the fact that said person is politically active means they should have a better knowledge of their political past, but still, it wouldn’t shock me.
Wow. At least it’s not a Confederate Flag. It’s a free country, still…so we’re still allowed to have that kind of stuff…right??
TO: Ginger, et al.
RE: Flags, the Analogy
Looking at the attempted analogy of the use of the Cuba/Guevera flag, vis-a-vis the Confderate one, especially at the South Carolina state house….
 I’ve yet to see Fox News report on a confederate flag, let alone a KKK one, at a McCain office; official or ‘volunteer’.
 At least the South Carolinians are honest and up front about their flying the Confederate Battle Flag at their state house. What does this say about Obama?
 Obama’s hiding behind ‘volunteers’ reminds me so much of Iran hiding behind Hizbollah.
P.S. Who owns that office space, anyway? I want to see if the FEC has a report of Obama’s campaign renting the facilities.
 The Confederate flag represents a group of people that left the ‘Union’ because they wanted to be ‘left alone’. Read Bruce Catton’s informative Centennial trilogy of the Civil War.
Che Guevara wanted to destroy the United States.
There’s a bit of a difference. Don’t you think? Or…maybe you don’t. And therein lies the proverbial ‘rub’.
TO: Michael, et al.
“In a day and age when most people wouldn’t recognize JFK from a picture, it’s entirely plausible for a 2nd or 3rd generation Cuban American to not recognize a picture of Che Guevara.” — Michael
….and I blame the vaunted American public education system for its abysmal failure to teach history, let alone civics or even how to apply logic and/or discuss.
[Those who do not remember their history are doomed……to relive it.]
…when did YOU graduate high school?
As they say…if you’re not a liberal when young you have no heart…if you’re not a conservative when old you have no brain.
Too bad for most of you Obama haters on this thread will soon have to refer to the man as Mr. President.
I chuckle at that.
TO: Carlos [the Clueless]
“Too bad for most of you Obama haters on this thread will soon have to refer to the man as Mr. President.” — Carlos….
I don’t hate Obama. And I don’t hate the Clintons.
I think they just make bad ‘presidential’ material. And the presidency of Mr. Bill will bear my opinion up.
P.S. I called Mr. Bill ‘president’ while I was in the military. I retired in ’97. However, I will admit it left a foul taste in my mouth. And it was the same for most of my comrades-in-arms.
Indeed, I recall reports that the Air Force had to force their people to fly Air Force 1 during the latter part of his presidency. Used to be they were competing to be on the flight crew of that plane.
P.P.S. About that foul taste….
Not to worry too much about. It was easily resolved with either a good cigar or fine scotch. Preferably both. Especially with fellow officers, where we could laugh at stupid things he was doing; bombing aspirin factories in Sudan and empty buildings in Afghanistan, fooling around with overweight interns, getting socked in the eye by his wife. Stuff like that. It made for some interesting discussions….
And what about your good ole’ chum Bush? The fact that you likely love him tells me a lot about you (that I already knew)
Those type of rumors you mentioned always perpetuate themselves amongst like minds. And were it even true…who cares…everyone knows the military is skewed right…that says nothing.
Anyway who would you prefer Ron Paul or Obama?
PS. Your cognac and fine cigar statement makes you sound elitist and isn’t becoming.
RE: [OT] Elitist?
“Your cognac and fine cigar statement makes you sound elitist and isn’t becoming.” — Carlos
But I am ‘elite’; it comes with being an Airborne-Ranger.
As for the appreciation of the good things in Life, that too comes with being such. Something to do with going through ‘c—‘ most of your life makes you appreciate the finer things; a warm house, clean clothes, hot showers, good food, fine beverages, etc., etc., etc.
Maybe you should learn to ‘live’ a little.
[You haven’t Lived until you’ve almost died.]
P.S. Been there. Done that. Very ‘excited’….
Makes me appreciate every day of my life all the more than people who’ve never ‘enjoyed’ those sorts of things. Don’t you think?
P.P.S. Also, please learn to read…..
That’s ‘scotch’ I mentioned. Not ‘cognac’. Although I do have a decanter of some very nice VSOP in the living room.
As a Cuban-American I am deeply offended by the display of the Cuban flag with a picture of Che on it. I am a registered Republican but I planned to vote for Obama in November. I only hope that Obama was not aware of this display; but, by now he must surely know about it…and I hope he has taken these flags down. If he has allowed these displays to continue, then I was right when I told my husband that I loved Obama but it was unsettling that his speeches made me feel like Fidel’s did when I was an idealist teenager in Cuba.
Ernesto Che Guevara wasent a terrorist, he was a man that fought for a believe, so anyone that goes against the believes of the United Estates of America is a terrorist now?,come on people!, lets start building up “friendship” instead of dumb allegations of terrorism.
“lets start building up “friendship” instead of dumb allegations of terrorism.” — Erick
….selling that to Osama et al.
The rest of US know better.
P.S. When did YOU graduate from high school?
I think it’s something about us not having enough maps, I heard that somewhere.
Because that has what to do with the validity of anything I’ve said?
Bill Clinton left a bad taste in your mouth, but a cigar made you feel better? And you didn’t even intended that as a pun?
I didn’t mean that the scotch and “fine” cigar were wrong, but the context you put your indulgences in made you sound nauseatingly arrogant.
A few egomaniacal army losers (again not even Marines…because you’re soft) gossiping about their commander and chief….talk about jealousy.
And please stop correcting insignificant things like my substituing scotch w/ cognac. Ass…you’re obsolete, face it.
RE: [OT] Validity
“‘…when did YOU graduate high school?’ — Chuck Pelto to Michael, and some others….
Because that has what to do with the validity of anything I’ve said?” — Michael
Actually, quite a bit, considering how dumbed-down the vaunted American public education system has become over the last 40 years.
If you graduated any time after 1985, you’ve got to self-educate.
Don’t you think? Or maybe you don’t. And therein lies my principle point.
So. Why don’t you answer the question, instead of evade?
When did YOU graduate from high school?
[It’s not my business to try to educate people who don’t choose to learn.]
P.S. “Bill Clinton left a bad taste in your mouth, but a cigar made you feel better? And you didn’t even intended that as a pun?” — Michael
Is that what they teach you in school these days? In Sex Ed, perhaps? Or did you take your lessons from Mr. Bill?
You have a purile mind. And, again, I blame the vaunted American public education system.
[Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. — Dr. Sigmund Freud]
“I didn’t mean that the scotch and “fine” cigar were wrong, but the context you put your indulgences in made you sound nauseatingly arrogant.” — Carlos
From enjoying some of the better things in Life; as in than life in the mud of some Central American Jungle?
Or is it the combination of cigar smoke and smokey liquor that nauseates you?
Either way, you can have your Pepsi and bubble gum. I outgrew that combination when I was 12. Dropped the gum and took up Coca-Cola.
[Culture is the habit of being pleased with the best and knowing why.]
RE: [OT] Jealous? Again?
“A few egomaniacal army losers (again not even Marines…because you’re soft) gossiping about their commander and chief….talk about jealousy.” — Carlos
You’re the one who keeps bringing it up. That’s a key indicator, in psychology.
My ego is well satisfied. Yours keep harping on something you apparently can’t quite get off your mind.
[You won’t have a mid-life crisis, if you had a Life in the first place. — CBPelto]
…becoming apparent that Carlos can’t keep on-topic about the Obama-Guevara connection.
Instead, they are going off-topic. This indicates they have given up on the topic itself.
I’m reminded of the Lawyer’s Rule, as stated in The Official Rules: A Compendium of Truthes and Axioms to Guide You in Life
The Lawyers Rule:
 If the Law is against you, argue the facts.
 If the facts are against you, argue the Law.
 If the Law and the facts are against you, call the other side names.
Unless you intend to argue that anybody who graduated prior to 1985* does not have to self-educate, then my question stands, how is it relevant?
*Is this an arbitrary date, the date you graduated, or is there some objective factor that made you select it?
It’s so funny that you so obviously (and ironically) showed (by posting 3 times in a row…obviously frustrated and continuously thinking of ways to “outdo” me because I hit a nerve) that YOU are the jealous and bitter one.
I am personally a Vodka kinda guy. Sorry if it reminds you of the Soviets…and of them all I’d say either Level or Tito’s (brewed from a little known distillery in Texas) are my fav’s…so save the bubble gum jokes for your geezer friends.
Furthermore, the fact that you said your ego is well satisfied at least shows me that you are aware of it’s influence on your happiness. That is in itself sad.
I know and have studied Freud all too well…so please don’t quote him without expecting a rebuttal. It has been highly documented by numerous scholars that he himself manifested numerous homosexual tendencies…and furthermore he was a self admitted cocaine addict.
Shut up and retire in solace…you’re no longer useful…stop fooling yourlself pops.
RE: [OT] Not Really
“It’s so funny that you so obviously (and ironically) showed (by posting 3 times in a row…obviously frustrated and continuously thinking of ways to “outdo” me because I hit a nerve) that YOU are the jealous and bitter one.” — Carlos
As I said (above), your ‘wit’ doesn’t hold a candle to that of real professionals.
As for multiple postings addressed to you, I think and then post and then re-read and if I think I see something else that strikes my interest I post again.
RE: [OT] Beverages
“I am personally a Vodka kinda guy. Sorry if it reminds you of the Soviets…” — Carlos
Vodka is okay. I keep a bottle of Stolies in the freezer along with four shot glasses. Best offered as an appetizer/aperitif with a kosher dill and a slice of toasted good Russian rye before a meal of borscht and goulash. [Note: Something I picked-up from a good Russian restaurant in Larimer Square, Denver.
As for the Sovs….up until that catastrophic series of explosions at their North Sea Fleet weapons storage facility, they WERE a concern. [Note: I still think the Reagan arranged that.]
RE: [OT] Psych 101
“Furthermore, the fact that you said your ego is well satisfied at least shows me that you are aware of it’s influence on your happiness. That is in itself sad.” — Carlos
You really haven’t study human psychology, much.
RE: [OT] Knowledge & Study
“I know and have studied Freud all too well…so please don’t quote him without expecting a rebuttal. It has been highly documented by numerous scholars that he himself manifested numerous homosexual tendencies…and furthermore he was a self admitted cocaine addict.” — Carlos
You KNOW Freud? How’s he doing these days? How old ARE you anyway? Or is it another Freud you’re talking about?
Yeah. And I guess Che’s a homosexual too. Castro too. They smoked cigars. So did Mr. Bill. But he did more than I have with them. Ask Monica.
I’ll bet you’ve even smoked a cigar.
So….as I said….quoting Freud, “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.” But if you think it’s a sex organ, you’ve not only have issues with psychology, but also with physiology.
You’ve a puerile and prurient mind. I suggest you seek out that guy you ‘know’, Freud, for professional help.
P.S. When you decide you’d like to get back ON-TOPIC, let me know…..
RE: The Necessity
“Unless you intend to argue that anybody who graduated prior to 1985* does not have to self-educate, then my question stands, how is it relevant?” — Michael
Actually….everyone has to self-education. Even myself.
However, the people who graduated from high school in the 80s, have to do more than those who graduated earlier.
RE: [OT] The Date
“*Is this an arbitrary date, the date you graduated, or is there some objective factor that made you select it?” — Michael
Actually….No. It was a gut feeling based ON the date I graduated high school, 1969, followed up with what I noticed happened in the realm of public education between then and 1990.
Interestingly enough, during the course of the local Regional High School Forensics Tournament, the last two days; a qualification for the State competition to be held next month, I encountered a younger man, a fellow judge of such competitions, who seems to have done a LOT of research in this area.
According to his study, the decline began in 1966 with the passage of a bill that, from his opinion, was the No Child Left Behind act of 1966; albeit it did not have all the bells-and-whistles.
It’s affect would not be fully noticed until kids began graduating from high school sometime in the 80s.
He made some excellent points regarding the various State Aptitude Tests, e.g., why should the kids strive to prove they’ve learned the material? There are neither rewards nor penalties for passing or failing. One option he suggested was that if the student passes the test, they get $50. Then they might have some positive motivation to do well, at least on the test, giving us a better picture of how the teachers were doing.
He was chock full of thoughts along those lines. It was an interesting way to pass the time between rounds of the tournament.
Hope that helps….
[Education, n., Replacing an empty mind with an open one.]
The fact that the flag is in one of Obama’s low staff’s office in Texas and not in his personal office should tell enough.
I don’t think he should apologize for a definitely arguable affection of one of his employees: it would really be un-American and not so democratic to discard of censor a person for their beliefs, I guess.
I am Italian, and I am writing from Italy, but I have always been fascinated with the US and have always followed American political life with deep interest (I have a few American friends I normally discuss politics with).
Although I have never sympathized with Communists and their ideology, I am deeply convinced that not every left-wing supporter is a shameless terrorist like Che Guevara, same as not every right-wing supporter is a Hitler clone. I do not find it strange, then, that Senator Obama should have a Communist supporter among the people who work for him: that does make him neither a Communist nor a bloody dictator or worse.
RE: A Picture Speaks a Thousand Words
“The fact that the flag is in one of Obama’s low staff’s office in Texas and not in his personal office should tell enough.â€ — Emanuela
It tells US a LOT.
This isn’t to say that he knew about it beforehand. Rather it tells US that some of his followers are unrepentant Communist militants.
What speaks particular volumes is that he has not repudiated the display.
“I don’t think he should apologize for a definitely arguable affection of one of his employees: it would really be un-American and not so democratic to discard of censor a person for their beliefs, I guess.â€ — Emanuela
You’re entitled to your opinion. I’m entitled to mine.
And, it’s much more ‘un-American’ to celebrate someone who was bent upon the destruction of America. Don’t you think?
“I am Italian, and I am writing from Italy, but I have always been fascinated with the US and have always followed American political life with deep interest (I have a few American friends I normally discuss politics with).â€ — Emanuela
Everybody ought to have a hobby. And it’s nice if it can be one that edifies.
“Although I have never sympathized with Communists and their ideology, I am deeply convinced that not every left-wing supporter is a shameless terrorist like Che Guevara, same as not every right-wing supporter is a Hitler clone. I do not find it strange, then, that Senator Obama should have a Communist supporter among the people who work for him: that does make him neither a Communist nor a bloody dictator or worse.â€ — Emanuela
So. You agree that Che was a shameless terrorist.
And yet you don’t repudiate someone who honors him. Interesting dichotomy, that.
And, I’m certain that many of Obama’s supporters are socialists. Even rabid ones, here and there. But they don’t seem to honor a ‘shameless terrorist’. There IS something of a difference. Don’t you think?
[A man is known by the company he keeps, and the reason he keeps them.]
P.S. It was TWO people on his staff in Houston who had those flags in their offices.
However, as I commented above, I think the proof of this ‘pudding’ would be determined by who is paying the rent on these facilities.
‘Last Man Standing’?
P.S. Now, some may perceive the double-entendre of the “(le)”.
there he goes with that ego again.
TO: Chuck Pelto
RE: Some clarifications about by comment
To begin with, I am not an Obama supporter. The main reason why I posted a comment on the issue is because I wanted to disagree on a common equation: if someone you know does something stupid, you have done it as well. In this case “Two Obama staff members hang a Guevara flag in their offices = Obama is a Communist”
This “guilty by association” refrain is very popular here in Italy and it really gets to my nerves, as I find it a very poor way to campaign against a political opponent, and in general a very silly way to address issues of any kind.
Well, I definitely agree; but, again, that it is Senator Obama that celebrates Guevara is yet to prove. That’s why I wrote that he should not apologize for something he has not done: if anyone has proven unfaithful to America is those two people who support Guevara, not Senator Obama.
Then you say
Again, I did not say that. I DO repudiate those who honor terrorists of any kind; yet, as far as I know, Obama does not honor Che, and if some of his supporters or of his staff members do it would not make any sense to repudiate Obama, don’t you think? This is also why I said that I consider non-American (or non democratic if you prefer) to fire or repudiate someone for their beliefs.
Much as I do not like Communists (and believe me I certainly don’t) I try not to make their mistakes: in my country it is not uncommon to be looked at with disdain or considered stupid just because you do not belong to the Left. They have this self-appointed moral superiority (definitely arguable) with which they measure everyone and everything, when more often than never their lack of intelligence and sensibility is appalling.
I do not consider my interest in the US in general and in US politics in particular as a hobby. It is just my way of keeping close to a country I deeply respect and admire. I did not mention I am Italian to show off in any way, but simply to apologize in advance for any misinterpretations or any misunderstandings my not being English mother tongue may cause.
That said, I also feel I have offended you in a way, and I really would like to apologize, as that was not my intention.
You don’t need to appologize to the Chuckle
“To begin with, I am not an Obama supporter.”– Emanuela
Never said you were, directly. However, I’ll admit to the idea there was a sub-conscience thought in there that you might be. Nice to know you aren’t.
However, your being an Italian, and knowing the prominence of the Italian Communist Party, are you a member of that group? Or have you ever voted for a candidate of that political party?
“The main reason why I posted a comment on the issue is because I wanted to disagree on a common equation: if someone you know does something stupid, you have done it as well. In this case “Two Obama staff members hang a Guevara flag in their offices = Obama is a Communist”– Emanuela
Where’s my W’ff n Proof?
The logic you suggest I’m thinking, does not follow.
Rather, my logic is this:
 Obama has an office in Houston; official or unofficial, it is an office that supports his candidacy for the presidency of the United States.
 Two members of the staff at that office display flags supporting Communist Cuba AND Che Guevara.
 One of these staffers at this office is in a clinch photo with Obama.
 These ‘inclinations’ came to the attention of the media, who promptly educated the rest of US.
 Obama’s campaign has not repudiated the display of these flags, in any manner that the reasonably prudent individual would call ‘adequate’.
Therefore: There are strong indicators that Obama is either (1) not paying attention or (2) does support a socialist, if not Communist, form of government.
“This “guilty by association” refrain is very popular here in Italy and it really gets to my nerves, as I find it a very poor way to campaign against a political opponent, and in general a very silly way to address issues of any kind.– Emanuela
As the saying goes…..â€birds of a featherâ€.
‘And, it’s much more ‘un-American’ to celebrate someone who was bent upon the destruction of America. Don’t you think?’– Chuck Pelto to Emanuela
“Well, I definitely agree; but, again, that it is Senator Obama that celebrates Guevara is yet to prove. That’s why I wrote that he should not apologize for something he has not done: if anyone has proven unfaithful to America is those two people who support Guevara, not Senator Obama.– Emanuela
I agree. I would like more information. However, as many US Army military intell pukes would put it, “The ‘indicators’ are ‘interesting’.â€
And, as I suggested (above) some really solid proof could be found in finding out WHO is paying for the rent on the facilities where these staffers work.
I’m certain that some good Republican staffers are searching for this information. Even as we type.
“You said– Emanuela
‘So. You agree that Che was a shameless terrorist.’– Chuck Pelto to Emanuela
“Then you say– Emanuela
‘And yet you don’t repudiate someone who honors him. Interesting dichotomy, that.’ — Chuck Pelto to Emanuela
“Again, I did not say that.â€ — Emanuela
No. You did not ‘repudiate’; Che nor the staffers, in your initial post.
“I DO repudiate those who honor terrorists of any kind; yet, as far as I know, Obama does not honor Che, and if some of his supporters or of his staff members do it would not make any sense to repudiate Obama, don’t you think?â€ — Emanuela
As far a YOU know.
Admittedly, I don’t ‘know’—for a fact—either. But after a number of years working with the intell weenies I’ve learned to recognize ‘indicators’. And, more oft than not, they seem to bear true witness to proclivities. [Note: I’ve found this sort of analysis VERY useful. Especially in the realm of politics; national, state AND local. Politicians do not, outright, tell you what they have in mind. You have to learn to read their actions and compare those actions against their words. Then you can get a better idea of (1) what they are up to and (2) whether you can trust them at their ‘word’.]
“This is also why I said that I consider [it?] non-American (or non democratic if you prefer) to fire or repudiate someone for their beliefs.â€ — Emanuela
Based on that, I guess you’d elect Saddam Hussein to be Prime Minister of Italy, given the chance; his beliefs on the exercise of political power not-withstanding.
For myself, I pay closer attention to political beliefs of people running for office and their staff than you.
“Much as I do not like Communists (and believe me I certainly don’t) I try not to make their mistakes: in my country it is not uncommon to be looked at with disdain or considered stupid just because you do not belong to the Left.â€– Emanuela
We have much in common. The same happens here. Indeed, It’s been going on for the last 14 years; ever since Mr. Bill [Clinton] et al., came out ‘swinging’ against anyone in government having Christian beliefs; June 1994 mid-term election. Even the vaunted WaPo had articles about how anyone who was a ‘conservative’ was an uneducated, inbreed, bigot of the Red-Neck persuasion.
I found that rather funny, being a ‘mustang’ officer in the US Army who held a masters degree in computers and a member of Mensa. [Note: Watch Carlos get jealous over THAT one.]
The point here being that propagandists abound. Indeed, I think one operates this blog; based on observations up the ‘hall’ from here.
“They have this self-appointed moral superiority (definitely arguable) with which they measure everyone and everything, when more often than never their lack of intelligence and sensibility is appalling.â€– Emanuela
Just like the other infamous dictatorial types of recent history.
“I do not consider my interest in the US in general and in US politics in particular as a hobby. It is just my way of keeping close to a country I deeply respect and admire. I did not mention I am Italian to show off in any way, but simply to apologize in advance for any misinterpretations or any misunderstandings my not being English mother tongue may cause.– Emanuela
I’m not concerned with egos. I’m more interested in knowing the perspective from which you view these discussion. Knowing you’re Italian is greatly appreciated. It helps me to appreciate the ‘audience’ I am addressing. It would be refreshingly different if some others around here were as candid with their background and experience as you are. It would help in communications.
“That said, I also feel I have offended you in a way, and I really would like to apologize, as that was not my intention.– Emanuela
Hardly. As I’ve told others here, I’m used to ‘abuse’. Furthermore, I do not consider your communications abusive in the least. Rather, I found it informative and useful. Much more so than other people around here.
On the other hand, my communications may seem ‘abusive’. It’s part of my make-up and years of experience in staff, political and business machinations. I don’t do them myself, but I tend to go directly to the point. Some people find that ‘abusive’.
[Abuse of words has been the great instrument of sophistry and chicanery, of party, faction, and division of society. — John Adams, 2d President of the United States]
Coming from someone who tauts the virtues of self-education, it’s very interesting that you offer a masters degree as validation of anything. And in computer science no less, a field where formal education is always half a decade behind the current developments. And then there is the Mensa claim, which is only ever used by people who are smart enough to get in, but not smart enough to realize that getting in doesn’t matter.
RE: Don’t You Understand ANYTHING?
“Coming from someone who tauts the virtues of self-education, it’s very interesting that you offer a masters degree as validation of anything.” — Michael
How does one get a ‘masters degree’? Or any degree above high school?
Does the government cram it into your head via a funnel in the ear? Like high school?
No. You have to go get it yourself.
Try not to be totally obtuse with regards to rhetoric. Please…..
P.S. Your jealousy is showing, buckie.
You wouldn’t be an alter-ego personification of Carlos, would you? After all, your nom des blogs format is identical.
A multiple personality case, perhaps?
From what I’ve observed of people with such a degree, it seems you just have to hand over money to the institute of your choice. Getting it into your head doesn’t seem to be necessary, only getting it back, unaltered, out of your mouth. This seems especially true of CS degrees.
Yeah, that’s it, everyone just wants to be like you. Aren’t you special.
I’ve been posting here, always under this name, long before I’ve seen either you or Carlos post anything. I’d imagine I’ll be posting here long after you and Carlos get bored with your pissing contest. You’re a distraction here, nothing more.
RE: Obtuse to the End — Self-Education
“‘How does one get a ‘masters degree’? Or any degree above high school?
Does the government cram it into your head via a funnel in the ear? Like high school?’ — Chuck Pelto, to Michael
From what I’ve observed of people with such a degree, it seems you just have to hand over money to the institute of your choice. Getting it into your head doesn’t seem to be necessary, only getting it back, unaltered, out of your mouth. This seems especially true of CS degrees.â€ — Michael, in reply
Oh. So it works like in THX-1138. You pays your money and they stuff your head.
So….tell me….why is it that one has to demonstrate the initiative to PAY the money and TAKE the ‘dose’?
You’re getting to be sillier than Carlos, buckie. And, much more obtuse.
RE: Envy Does Not Become You
“‘P.S. Your jealousy is showing, buckie. — Chuck Pelto, to Michael
Yeah, that’s it, everyone just wants to be like you. Aren’t you special.â€ — Michael, in reply
Well. I kind of doubt that. I can’t imagine many people who want to get shot at, bombed, shelled, frostbitten and broken bones. Not to forget all the other ‘joys’ that came along with my life on this ball-o-dirt.
But you, like Carlos and so many others do seem to get ‘hung-up’ on various parts of my diversity. In a rather spiteful manner.
I’m particularly ‘impressed’ with the puerile focus your sort have. And, the more I look at it, the more it resembles envy. Or, as some sergeant I know would say, “Sounds like a personal problem.â€
RE: Carlos and Michael; Separated At Birth?
“‘You wouldn’t be an alter-ego personification of Carlos, would you?’ — Chuck Pelto, to Michael
I’ve been posting here, always under this name, long before I’ve seen either you or Carlos post anything. I’d imagine I’ll be posting here long after you and Carlos get bored with your pissing contest. You’re a distraction here, nothing more.â€ — Michael, in reply
I know people who are multi-personality. Sometimes they are not aware of the other personality.
And, if I’m merely a ‘distraction’, you must have a very sorry life, as you seem to have joined the ‘pissing contest’; for lack of anything better to do.
[If you had a life in the first place…..]
P.S. As with Carlos….
….anytime you care to get back ON-TOPIC…..
P.P.S. I do this to take a break from writing computer code. It helps to clear the mind before, once more, diving deep into a project.
RE: [On-Topic] Anyone Here….
Seems that there is a report surfacing that while Obama was in Hawaii he had a mentor referred to as ‘Frank’.
A columnist at WorldNetDaily is reporting that said ‘Frank’ is actually, Frank Marshall Davis; something of a Communist.
….I don’t know Mr. Davis. Nor do I know enough about Obama to put him and Davis together in Hawaii. BUT, I am interested in finding out more information.
Anyone know anything that would corroborate or dispell the report at….
As I already mentioned in another thread, a college education is expected these days, initiative is not required for most of the students.
Your false humility sucks, nobody wants to be you, and certainly nobody wants to feel sorry for you.
I’m guessing you couldn’t code your way out of a wet paper bag, but what do I know, I don’t have a masters degree or anything.
RE: Changing the Subject?
“As I already mentioned in another thread, a college education is expected these days, initiative is not required for most of the students.” — Michael
Or….putting it mildly….Liar.
Young folk are ordered by law to go to school in the K-12 range.
No one is ordered to go to college. They do it of their own choice.
Your equivocation is noted and rebuked.
“I’m guessing you couldn’t code your way out of a wet paper bag, but what do I know, I don’t have a masters degree or anything.” — Michael
Working as a freelance these days.
P.P.S. As for your lack of ‘education’….
…you seem (1) young and (2) ignorant.
You’ve got time to recover from your condition.
Try not to be ‘stupid’ as well.
[Stupid, adj., Ignorant and proud of it.
Christopher | February 12, 2008
Why do u have to spell his name out? Is that to make a stronger point? I hate when people do that. It is just a name. BTW there are people who worship the devil in this country who have every right to be a McCain lover…Hilary or Barack. It’s the sweetest thing about this country..FREEDOM! As I don’t think it was a smart move to hang it in his office bc of the crap he is getting now for it, it is again our right to do so if we choose. And that is the very principle our founding fathers have based this country on. People are getting to crazy about censoring. What is political correct..etc, etc. Let people live.
The funny thing is this story never got big news coverage (Because everyone knows it’s a sorry effort to try to discredit “the armor that is Barrack Obama”)
As a matter of fact, since this story “leaked” Obama’s gallop poll rankings in Texas have increased to outdo Hillary by 1% (A state she was well ahead in)
Furthermore, in the meantime Mr. McCain’s scandalous affair has made more news in 24 hours than this ridiculous story will ever make!
Good day haters.
Salute your president and shut the hell up!
RE: Back On-Topic
“The funny thing is this story never got big news coverage (Because everyone knows it’s a sorry effort to try to discredit “the armor that is Barrack Obama”)” — Carlos
Actually…because the MSM is suborned and can’t be trusted to tell the truth about anything.
RE: Ah Yes….
“Salute your president and shut the hell up!” — Carlos
Spoken like a true totalitarian.
P.S. As an old colonel taught this, then young, captain….
There are two ways to exercise power.
 Make decisions for people that they would be better off making for themselves.
 Withhold information from people that would allow them to make the best decision for themselves.
Guess which one the so-called MSM is exercising.
Three guesses. First two don’t count.
Are you bitching about “the liberal media” again…
wah wah…shut up.
Second of all. I am far from a totalitarian (name calling is childish and a sign of insecurity chucky)
I actually preffer limited government control but I made that last comment to irk an old man who would hate to see a young democrat lead this nation.
Since when did having ideals become second seat to stubborn blind patriotism?
Salute your president!
Um, are you claiming that I didn’t say something like that in another thread? Because really, it’s pretty easy to verify.
I said “expected” not “required”, I presume you know the difference, so why the straw man?
Seriously, you offer up Filemaker as proof? I mean, WTF man, you have a masters degree in computer science and Filemaker was the best solution you could think of? What, was Access to difficult? I’m sticking by my “wet paper bag” claim.
Oh, lucky me, but what are you going to do? At least, I assume by the above comment that you are (1) not young, so I guess you’re stuck with (2).
Chuck is a retiree with a hobby…he’s washed up…don’t believe his hype about coding…it’s kinda sad actually and I think I’ll stop picking on him now.
Anyhow, people like chuckle make me like Obama even more (which I only mildly did before)
Seriously Obama or McCain?…I don’t care how much he got shot up…he’s a horny hot-headed scumbag.
Salute your president.
RE: [Sorta OT] No
“Are you bitching about “the liberal media” again…” — Carlos
I’ve properly identified you as a totalitarian at heart.
Got a problem with that? Sounds like a personal problem.
[The Truth will out.]
P.S. It was nice to see you go ON-TOPIC. Even if only for a single post.
“Seriously, you offer up Filemaker as proof? I mean, WTF man, you have a masters degree in computer science and Filemaker was the best solution you could think of? What, was Access to difficult? I’m sticking by my “wet paper bag” claim.” — Michael
You doubted my capabilities. I gave you proof you’re wrong. So you equivocate.
Are you TRYING to be ‘stupid’? Despite my warning?
How very sad.
RE: [OT] Access vs. FMP
Now you whine about FMP?
I go up against Access frequently. And usually beat the c— out of it.
But if you insist on being both ‘ignorant’ and ‘proud of it’….guess what……
[When Microsoft FINALLY makes a product that doesn’t suck….it’ll be a vacuum cleaner.]
P.S. Anytime you want to get back ON-TOPIC hear….feel free…..
P.P.S. [OT] About Access v. FMP….
….I’m about to beat the c— out of Access again, at the state-level, with this current project.
If you want to hear more, you’ll have to sign a non-disclosure agreement.