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Will Israel Attack Iran?

There’s an article in the Times of London today claiming that Israel’s air force is on standby, just waiting for the order from Israel’s government before mounting an air assault against Iran’s nuclear development sites:

The Israeli military is preparing itself to launch a massive aerial assault on Iran’s nuclear facilities within days of being given the go-ahead by its new government

[…]

Among the steps taken to ready Israeli forces for what would be a risky raid requiring pinpoint aerial strikes are the acquisition of three Airborne Warning and Control (AWAC) aircraft and regional missions to simulate the attack.

Two nationwide civil defence drills will help to prepare the public for the retaliation that Israel could face.

“Israel wants to know that if its forces were given the green light they could strike at Iran in a matter of days, even hours. They are making preparations on every level for this eventuality. The message to Iran is that the threat is not just words,” one senior defence official told The Times.

Is Israel’s new government daft enough to give such an order? The comparison of such an attack with Israel’s attack on Iraq’s Osirak nuclear reactor more than 25 years ago is specious. Iran is significantly farther away from Israel, Iran’s nuclear development program is believed to be dispersed and hardened, and, well, Iran is not Iraq.

An attack by Israel against Iran’s nuclear development facilities would give Iran every right to retaliate as they chose and I have no doubt that Iran would retaliate both by conventional and unconventional means. Could Israel survive a massive retaliation? And it would justify in the eyes of many any future development of nuclear weapons on Iran’s part.

The United States could not remain uninvolved in such a conflict. The attack would necessarily take place by flying through air space controlled by the United States. Whether we’d given an explicit or implicit “go ahead” to the attack or not, it would be assumed that we had. That’s mentioned in the article:

He added that it was unlikely that Israel would carry out the attack without receiving at least tacit approval from America, which has struck a more reconciliatory tone in dealing with Iran under its new administration.

An Israeli attack on Iran would entail flying over Jordanian and Iraqi airspace, where US forces have a strong presence.

Ephraim Kam, the deputy director of the Institute for National Security Studies, said it was unlikely that the Americans would approve an attack.

“The American defence establishment is unsure that the operation will be successful. And the results of the operation would only delay Iran’s programme by two to four years,” he said.

Michael van der Galien correctly points out the likely reactions of other countries in the region:

If Israel attacks, the entire Middle East could turn against it. I would not rule out that even Ankara, Turkey, would side with Tehran. Erdogan would not order his country’s military to carry out strikes against Israel, but he could very well declare a war of words. And let’s not even mention Arab peoples. Most Arab rulers have no sympathy for Iran. They’ll quietly thank God Israel destroyed the country’s nuclear facilities. Publicly, however, they will have to rail against the Jewish nation-state, calling it anti-Muslim, and dictatorial. If they do not, their people will turn against them.

I’ve long held the position that, however loud its saber-rattling, Israel would not attack Iran, at least not without direct provocation, but since the recent election I’m not so sure. Nonetheless let’s consider the possible signalling functions that Israel’s new government may be taking by keeping the ball of an attack against Iran’s nuclear facilities up in the air.

First and foremost are the domestic political considerations. The Netanyahu government is signalling to the Israeli people its resolve to prevent an Iranian attack against Israel. And it would be signalling both to the United States and to the Iranians the prospective consequences of a failure by the various parties to end Iran’s nuclear development program by other means.

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About Dave Schuler
Over the years Dave Schuler has worked as a martial arts instructor, a handyman, a musician, a cook, and a translator. He's owned his own company for the last thirty years and has a post-graduate degree in his field. He comes from a family of politicians, teachers, and vaudeville entertainers. All-in-all a pretty good preparation for blogging.

Comments

  1. […] published a couple of foreign policy posts at OTB this morning. The first is Will Israel Attack Iran?. I still don’t think so but the saber-rattling certainly has gotten louder since the recent […]

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  2. Tlaloc says:

    The irony of course is that belligerent Israel, which has had on again off again war with most of its neighbors for decades, is allowed to have nuclear weapons while Iran which hasn’t started a war since the Islamic regime came to power is “too unstable and dangerous” to be allowed to do the same.

    The Iranians are hardly saintly but in direct contrast to how they are portrayed by many they seem eminently rational in pursuing their interests. Their interests are different than ours by and large but they aren’t like Pakistan or North Korea where they are unstable or just plain crazy.

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  3. fredw says:

    Bombing Iran is not like bombing Iraq. Saddam Hussein thought Iran was an easy target and with US support and armaments attacked it in 1980. About six years later Iraq sued for peace and Iran’s reply was you started this and we will finish it. The war went on for two more years. This is not an Arab country, it is Persia; it is a different culture. Look at the history of the Iraq-Iran war if you want to understand why Iran is not a sleeping dog Israel should want to poke.

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  4. anjin-san says:

    The Iranians are hardly saintly but in direct contrast to how they are portrayed by many they seem eminently rational in pursuing their interests.

    A good point. When was the last time Iran started a war? We should keep in mind the royal screwing we gave Iran in the mid 20th century before we get too strident in stating our grievances with them. Anyone who is in a hurry to mix it up with Iran should read more history, it does not generally turn out well.

    True, Iran has a nasty government, but that is a pretty big club they belong to. They also posses one of the worlds great and ancient civilizations, and perhaps deserve a bit more respect than we grant them.

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  5. MLocke says:

    An attack won’t do anything, but the regime does need to go. The West screwed the pooch back in the 50s with removing the government and placing a dictator, but what is currently there is a lot worse than what could be. Look at Pakistan, they are slowly turning into what Iran is.

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  7. Zelsdorf Ragshaft III says:

    To most people, the attack on the U.S Embassy would have been considered an act of war. The holding of those citizens hostage for 444 days certainly qualifies. However to some people here, any act against us or our interest is justified. Anjin, did you ever get to school with your lunch money?
    The people who currently lead the Israeli government believe the leadership if Iran, who’s stated purpose is the removal of Israel from the face of the earth. If you think Israel is going to stand by and let Iran develop the means to do so, you just have not been paying attention. Rational people would understand the threat of mutual destruction, however rational people do not send children into battle with their enemies as the Iranians have. Rational people to not hang 16 year old girls for getting raped. The spiritual leader of Iran believes if they start the end battle, the 12th Imam will appear (Obama) and the whole would will be under his rule. Many here have no faith therefore cannot understand this faith, but trust and believe they do.

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  8. LWhite says:

    As someone who taught Physics to Iranians just before the Shah was deposed, I don’t think bombing or invading Iran would be a good idea.

    This is the culture that can ultimately equal Israel in scientific pursuit, if not already pulling ahead. It is perhaps the most inclusive of Islamic cultures with more women than men pursuing science and engineering. Although women are expected to be conservative in public they have equal voices and contributions.

    Unlike other oil dictatorships in the region, Iran is preparing for the day when the oil runs out.

    It’s doubtful that anything approaching the US’ proxy support for Sadaam in the 8 years war will happen again. I would expect that if Israel starts a confict the US will not step in until enough retaliatory damage occurs to dissuade Israel from doing it again.

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  9. Ahmed says:

    Israel wants to destroy the equilibrium by aerial assault on Iran’s nuclear facilities,while President Obama sincerly is seeking world peace.
    Israel’s target is not Iran, but Obama.Israel’s real target is destroy Obama and Iran is just a scapegoat.

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  10. Tano says:

    I’m betting that it has been agreed that the Israelis play bad cop – then Obama “restrains” them, thus earning a payback from the Iranians.

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  11. Clint H says:

    DEFENCE??? spell check please!!!

    It would take the US about 2 days of air strikes to level Iran.. I have no doubt about that. However, the biggest question is… what afterwards??? Another 8 years of occupation and rebuilding using our own borrowed money?

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  12. G.A.Phillips says:

    Israel wants to destroy the equilibrium by aerial assault on Iran’s nuclear facilities,while President Obama sincerly is seeking world peace.
    Israel’s target is not Iran, but Obama.Israel’s real target is destroy Obama and Iran is just a scapegoat.

    WOW, lol, And I thought I was crazy.

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  13. abel says:

    I’ve long held the position that, however loud its saber-rattling………….. doesn’t Iran presidenet use the same strategy. politicians are testing the resolve of the masses. these are all small points.

    civilization has never been able to contain human population increase even with technology “human’s product”. when the population problem arises now and then, the leaders are faced with the decision to credit themselves/technology or to pray for salvation. Population decrease by warfare/technology has been the most effective method for every race and every culture rarely has anyone chosen the latter.

    let these leaders fight amongst each other, don’t drag people with you….

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  14. steve E says:

    I agree with post by Tlaloc. Israel is a bully and if they do strike Iran I hope the Iranians and Arabs destroy them. They attacked our American Ship without as much as an apology to our dead. We have many dead soldiers to help Israel get at their enemies. The Muslim world only hates us because we defend the S@#$ country.

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  15. Will C says:

    I love how many of you call Israel the bully, the aggressor. Yet fail to realize that Israel is under constant threat of annihilation, not just attack, by Iran and other Muslim nations. They want to destroy Israel and kill every Jewish man, woman and child. Nuclear weapons will give them that ability. To call Israel a bully for preventing a genocidal nation from attaining nuclear weapons shows that many of you cannot grasp the reality of the situation. It is truly sad.

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  16. An Israeli says:

    Noooo. We should wait alittle before attacking Iran, the Israeli Airforce should wait until I leave Israel for good in about 1-2 weeks. After that they can attack them all they want, I really don’t care.

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  17. G.A.Phillips says:

    I agree with post by Tlaloc. Israel is a bully and if they do strike Iran I hope the Iranians and Arabs destroy them. They attacked our American Ship without as much as an apology to our dead. We have many dead soldiers to help Israel get at their enemies. The Muslim world only hates us because we defend the S@#$ country.

    The Muslim world hates us because their evil, their god tells them to subjugate or murder everyone who is not Muslim.

    This whole period in time is really starting feel like a bad end of times movie.

    Did any of you ever read the last part of the bible? Or ever see a bad end times movie, or maybe have a f%$@ing brain in your heads when you were born?

    Dude this Is sad, it must suck to live your whole life as a crappy movie extra, damn I feel bad for some of you poor bastards.

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  18. An Interested Party says:

    Hmmm…there have certainly been some colorful comments on this thread…it’s pretty bad when something that Zelsdorf Ragshaft III wrote isn’t the most ridiculous thing you read…I’m just curious though…does anyone seriously believe that the leaders of Iran are suicidal? Everyone knows that Israel has nukes, so Iran’s leaders would use them only to have their own country annihilated? Really? Also, I have yet to see anyone provide a plausible scenario whereby bombing Iran would not only successfully stop their nuclear program but also wouldn’t cost us more than it was worth…

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  19. Johnny Wad says:

    Look at their neighbors idiot and use the few loose screws in your head to figure out why Israel is at the brink of war with them. Too many ignorants on here. I hope Israel bombs Iran into the next world, this planet has way too many terrorists as it is the fewer the better..

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  20. Tlaloc says:

    Look at Pakistan, they are slowly turning into what Iran is.

    God, I wish Pakistan was turning into Iran. Iran, for all their bluster, have taken a very practical and calculated approach to geopolitics. Pakistan is just a bomb waiting to blow.

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  21. Tlaloc says:

    I love how many of you call Israel the bully, the aggressor. Yet fail to realize that Israel is under constant threat of annihilation, not just attack, by Iran and other Muslim nations.

    They are under threat of annihilation. The thing is, they kind of brought that on themselves by attacking their neighbors and commit atrocities routinely. Strangely enough that tends to harden people’s feelings against you.

    They didn’t have to go that route, they chose to, and still choose to. The only reason they’ve been able to get away with it is that we’ve subsidized their belligerence to the tune of several billion a year. That makes us complicit in their crimes. We should stop giving them aid (there’s really not much excuse to giving foreign aid to first world nations anyway). It might help them be a bit more reasonable or it might not but at least our hands would be clean then.

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  22. Jon K says:

    “The irony of course is that belligerent Israel, which has had on again off again war with most of its neighbors for decades, is allowed to have nuclear weapons while Iran…”

    My goodness, Tlaloc! You have turned history on it’s head and insulted the intelligence of other readers by labeling Israel as the bully, when it has in fact fought only defensive wars against intransigent, hate-filled and murderous neighbors.

    Iran has perpetrated numerous acts of war against Israel, including backing its offensive proxies at the northern and southern borders, Hezbollah and Hamas, respectively. Like the USA and other countries, even including fanatically islamic ones, Israel has a right to exist without being attacked. Overt threats by Iran’s President to destroy Israel with nuclear weapons, however, must be recognized as unacceptable belligerency. No other country would tolerate this.

    Your rewriting of history and the double standard evident in your comments and in those of several others in this forum exposes an underlying bias against Israel.

    The vast majority of Arabs are encouraged to hate Israel and Jews in general. You, too, are free to interpret historical events through any lens of your choice, including those that distort reality, but please, keep this discussion honest by voicing your own prejudice in clearer terms.

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  23. Tony says:

    Iran has repeatedly threatened Israel and Israel will be in the cross hairs of any nuke that Iran gets.

    And one other poster said that Iran has never started a war. Actually, they have. Not only did the same Iranian regime start the war with Iraq by trying to provoke an uprising against Saddam, they also purposefully prolonged the war by several years because they deemed the conflict necessary for the regime’s survival. Iraq proposed a peace treaty in 1983 and Saudi Arabia offered to pay for the damages caused by the war, but the Iranians refused it and the war languished on for 5 more years. The Iranian leadership is crazy. Israel’s government has every right to be concerned about them acquiring a deadly weapon.

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  24. anjin-san says:

    To most people, the attack on the U.S Embassy would have been considered an act of war

    Yup. Remember it well. But we did not make war on them at the time, and much time has passed. If we were going to do something about the embassy takeover, the time has passed. Reagan was wise, he got the hostages back without violence and moved on.

    Please show where I said the embassy takeover was justified. What I said was that Iran does have legitimate historical grievances with us. If you can disprove that statement, have at it. Please, no infantile bushisims.

    We overthrew a democratically elected government in Iran, and put a despot in power who got off on having people tortured. What sort of an act it that?

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  25. mannning says:

    Israel will attack Iran sooner or later.

    Iran will retaliate, not only on Israel, but also on the US and its foreign installations and businesses. This was declared by that nutcake President some time ago, and there is little reason to doubt it.

    This will put the US in the war as well. (if so, why don’t we join the Israelis in the attack?)

    One key to the situation is the new air defense systems that Iran bought from Russia. It would be vital to Israel that they strike Iran before the new defenses are fully operational, just as it would be vital to strike before Iran has a nuclear weapon. This places the probable time of attack as very soon now.

    In the end, Israel is not going to listen to a passive, leftist, rookie President of the US when it is their nation that is at stake. That is, unless the President wants to join them in the attack on Iran.

    They are not going to listen to the voices of feckless, ignorant apologists for Iran that claim Iran would not initiate a war. They have been at war with Iran via Iran’s surrogates for a very long time, and have lived with a rain of missiles of Iranian manufacture. They know their enemy.

    Their paramount criteria is the survival of Israel and Israelis.

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  26. True American says:

    I support Israel 100% but I think it is a bad idea to attack Iran because the retaliation will be immense. The hizballah dogs will shower Israel with rockets as would hamas from Gaza and the West Bank; they are puppets of Tehran. Iran would attack Jewish targets like they did in Argentina. As for the Arabs and Muslims of the world, they riot whenever they are told to, especially when the cameras are rolling. Iran would spare no expense to punish Israel. But we must ask a very important question; which is: what is Israel supposed to do when the madman Ahmadinejad promises total destruction of Israel every day AND the denial of the holocaust.

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  27. Justin says:

    I think an Israeli attack would be a complete disaster. It would crystalize the anti-Semitic discourse and strengthen those who already call for the destruction of Israel. An Israeli attack is a terrible, terrible route.

    I think the only sane thing to do is to take a diplomatic route of containment and then pray.

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  28. anjin-san says:

    and have lived with a rain of missiles of Iranian manufacture

    Well Manning, how many people have been killed by American munitions since the end of WW2? Do their friends and countrymen then have the right to come and kill you in revenge? It is so easy to point out the wrongs of another, and so hard to look in the mirror…

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  29. mannning says:

    Two further points:

    Israel now has the tanker capacity to conduct a massive air offensive at a long distance, and they have the JDAM guided blockbuster bombs to reach deep underground targets.

    If the IAF overflies Iraq, I assert that the USAF will not stop them, will not try to shoot them down, and may even help them…such as by protecting returning IAF planes from any Iranian air attackers that penetrate Iraqi airspace. If given the goahead, the USAF would do its thing once more.

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  30. anjin-san says:

    Not only did the same Iranian regime start the war with Iraq by trying to provoke an uprising against Saddam,

    Wow! The Iranians are evil does indeed. Of course I do seem to remember President GHW Bush doing something very similar…

    Are you really bitching because Iran would have liked to have seen Saddam deposed?

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  31. anjin-san says:

    And my follow up is do you actually believe Saddam attacked Iran only out of some sort of righteous outrage after being wronged? I mean its not as if Saddam had a track record of regional territorial ambitions…

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  32. mannning says:

    What a non sequiteur, angin san. Typical fogging up the issue, which is not the alledged sins of the US.

    The issue is the plight of the Israelis versus Iran, their acquisition of nuclear weapons, and their using surrogates surrounding Israel, and what they might do about it.

    If you want to count dead bodies from the past, please begin with the dead caused by Russia, China, Laos, Cambodia, and N.Viet Nam. But then, I have yet to find a liberal that can count so high, or remember who was to blame. That is a total all liberals should ponder deeply.

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  33. anjin-san says:

    Typical fogging up the issue, which is not the alledged sins of the US.

    Well I was raise to believe that taking responisbility for one’s actions was always an issue. Of course I have no idea what your daddy taught you.

    please begin with the dead caused by Russia, China, Laos, Cambodia, and N.Viet Nam.

    No. I am an American. I begin with holding my nation responsible for its wrongs, even as I praise its many virtues. If you prefer to pass the buck, well, once a bushie, always a bushie I guess..

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  34. mannning says:

    Which has exactly nothing to do with this thread.
    Yawn!

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  35. mannning says:

    A rather juvenile comment, angin san, off-thread, and struggling to divert the discussion to other topics. Cut it out.

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  36. Concerned Observer says:

    sounds like Binyamin Netanyahu is trying to bark louder than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

    both are calling for the destruction of the other’s nation…. both are idiot war mongers. nobody wants to see a war of this magnitude, as the death toll would easily be in the millions on both sides, and in the surrounding nations. unfortunately this would in my opinion start WWIII. our economies and our planet will not survive such reckless posturing and bombings.

    but i give the notch of the biggest war monger/zealot to Netanyahu!!!! him and his ultra-right bloc are nothing but a racist murdering machine that claim innocent death as “collateral damage”!!

    remove the financial aid to this “country” and it will destroy itself from within in a matter of years; but the politicians in our country fear Israeli influence more than their own parents or their constituents, and continuously send billions in aid (monetary and weaponry) annually to this regime in hopes of getting some of that money back in the form of political contributions.

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  37. wiseman says:

    the mistake people keep making is that iran is not iraq,even when we went to war with iraq,they were already weakened by the 1st Gulf War,we were basically at war with a defenseless country, due to
    years of Disarmament and economic sanctions ,i would love to see isreal try iran,they will shocked and surprised,i will reapeat iran is not iraq,Palestine or azbollah….

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  38. anjin-san says:

    A rather juvenile comment, angin san, off-thread, and struggling to divert the discussion to other topics. Cut it out.

    Hmm. Do you have a thread police merit badge? You don’t have a intelligent response, so you go hall monitor on us?

    Put you thinking cap on Manning. How do our past actions fit into the equation? What chain of events led to the current Iranian regime? Why the 1953 coup. It started there. Cause and effect, son, cause and effect. Perhaps if we had left well enough alone, Iran would be a thriving democracy today. If you buy the Bush middle east democracy domino theory, perhaps there would be a whole lotta democracy in that part of the world.

    Buy hey, its much easier to talk about what bad guys the Khmer Rouge were that to open that little can of worms, no?

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  39. thelogar says:

    1980 to 1988 Iraq and Iran War and so these guys shoot up then onto the front f$ckin’line

    Israeli country has not many peoples only less than 10 million compared to the Iran with lots of peoples and so the USA screwed up badly with the bombing of Japan during WW2, and so there is now justified other countries doing the same threats.

    Did the USA actually think that a very easy to make atomic bomb (just takes a centrifuge (much like a hospital would do the same) of the Uranium ore then with some implosion cartridges or gun-type (explained in detail by the online encyclopedias) would never be figured out by the other small countries in the middle of a hotzone?

    Gollee the USA thought way too highly of themselves and so little of the future

    A sad ending to a already very sad war, an easy fix even if children are involved. And the Americans are still o so proud, even with the unmotivated like me that thinks that a human being is a human being

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  40. Johnny Potatoe says:

    Israel will have to be willing to obliterate Gaza and Lebanon in order to finish off Hamas and Hezbol’lah prior to plastering Iran. Ground wars against the former can only lead to unproductivity, which Israel knows.

    There’s going to have to be a nuclear equivalent of the 1967 “Six Day War” for Israel to be successful in this ‘tripartate’ endeavour. There can be no meaningful retaliation from the Persian-Shiite monster. It seems to be an “impossible dream” but Israel is running out of options.

    Can it afford not to act?

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  41. Tlaloc says:

    My goodness, Tlaloc! You have turned history on it’s head and insulted the intelligence of other readers by labeling Israel as the bully, when it has in fact fought only defensive wars against intransigent, hate-filled and murderous neighbors.

    The Sinai war was defensive? Please elaborate…
    The Six Day War was defensive? Please elaborate…

    Or you could just stop being a revisionist…

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  42. Tlaloc says:

    Their paramount criteria is the survival of Israel and Israelis.

    Would that that were true. The paramount interest of the Israeli government is maintaining their personal power which they do in large part by fostering a siege atmosphere. It isn’t a coincidence that every time tensions start to die down the Israeli military just happens to level an apartment building. It is done to provoke a response, one that they get due to the anger of the Palestinians and their own leaders playing the same cynical bloody game.

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  43. Tlaloc says:

    There’s going to have to be a nuclear equivalent of the 1967 “Six Day War” for Israel to be successful in this ‘tripartate’ endeavour.

    Any nation that initiates a nuclear attack against another has to suffer a reprisal nuclear attack. People have to know that they’re not toys. They aren’t tools of diplomacy. They are “Mutually Assured Destruction.” I highly doubt the Israelis are suicidal enough to nuke Iran but if they did they have to be nuked in return.

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  44. Mark Alan says:

    The brothers Ishmael (Arabs) and Issac (Jews) should make peace, with or without their governments!

    Israel’s Jewish population is around 6,000,000 – approximately the same number that Achminejad denies were murdered in the Holocaust of WW2.

    Israel cannot “try diplomacy and pray” when the government of Iran (a country that is ten times larger then Israel), and its President makes overt and direct threats against Israel’s population.

    Israel can survive 1000’s of low-munition missiles from Hezbollah, Hamas and even Iran (in retaliation). But it cannot survive even one nuclear detonation.

    Did you know that Israel is approx. 60 miles wide, at its widest point? And this thin, little country, is only about as long as New Jersey. Israel is tiny. There are approx. 250,000,000 Arabs/Muslims alligned against Israel’s 6,000,000.

    If Israel wanted to kill Arabs, it could have easily killed 500,000 of them in Gaza, during the last conflict. The casualties were quite low and civilians were specifically warned to evacuate target areas.

    And let’s fact it, there would be no conflict and no war, tomorrow, if the Arab/Muslim world simply said “we are standing down. Live and let live.”

    And there would be no Palestinian Arab problem – either in refugee camps or in the territories, if the Arabs had/would absorb/ed the 800,000 Arab-refugees from the 1948 war (which the Arabs initiated), just as Israel absorbed the 800,000 Jewish-refugees kicked out of Arab countries at the same time.

    My guess is that if Israel attacked Iran’s nuclear program, a small number of people would die in Iran. That’s because Israel has no fight with the Iranian people and has no desire to target civilians. Whereas, the Iranian, theocratic dictatorship would revel in the blood of innocent Jewish civilians.

    However, if Iran and its terrorist proxies were to attack Israel, 1000’s or 10’s of 1000’s of casualties might be incurred. Millions if Iran used nukes.

    You may not like Jews. And you may not like Israel. But you cannot deny these simple facts.

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  45. MeMadMax says:

    This is like a Super Bowl game where the players are already known, but the kickoff is still unplanned :(

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  46. CONFUSED says:

    Most of you people must be blind, deaf or just plain stupid. If someone said they are going to wipe you off the map I think a wise person would prepare for all possibilities no brainier don’t you think.

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  47. Dave says:

    Saying that Israel only wishes to defend itself completely ignores the existence of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. They are a colonial power subsidized unwittingly by the US taxpayers, as far as I can tell. There is no debate in the US media about the value of the West Bank settlements or the moral implications. Lots of talk about the rockets from Gaza, which apparently kill 0 Israelis, compared to the hundreds of Palestinians killed by Israel in “retaliation”.

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  48. CONFUSED says:

    Unfortunately you may have a valid point Dave. In today’s world it is hard to get at the real motives behind the actions of some of these countries.

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  49. Tlaloc says:

    Israel cannot “try diplomacy and pray” when the government of Iran (a country that is ten times larger then Israel), and its President makes overt and direct threats against Israel’s population.

    The Iranian president blusters a lot and talks a lot of smack. But that’s all it is because the position of president in Iran is nothing but a figure head. He’s a puppet. All the real power lies with the clerics. It’s a theocracy. So yes, the Iranian president is an idiot, but he’s an inconsequential idiot. His comments warrant a stern rebuke, not an act of war.

    If Israel wanted to kill Arabs, it could have easily killed 500,000 of them in Gaza, during the last conflict. The casualties were quite low and civilians were specifically warned to evacuate target areas.

    the thousand civies they did kill just don’t matter, huh? The latest gaza conflict was once again marked by Israel firing on civilian targets and health facilities. In addition they used white phosphorus as a weapon against at least one school. The claims of deliberate murder of palestinain civilians not only have come from human rights groups like AI but also from Israeli soldiers disgusted by their comrade’s actions.

    And let’s fact it, there would be no conflict and no war, tomorrow, if the Arab/Muslim world simply said “we are standing down. Live and let live.”

    Right. Remind me who exactly started all this? Hint- it was NOT the Arabs. Before there was a proper Israel Zionist settlers decided to take over the area from the natives and they proceeded to use terrorist tactics to do so, which is what caused the Brits to eventually abandon the area (the soon to be Israeli settlers were using the exact same tactics they condemn today).

    Want an example? Remember Yitzhak Shamir? He was Prime Minister of Israel for much of the 80s. He also used to be one of the top people of Lehi. What’s Lehi? Why it was a Terrorist group in what would become Palestine. They assassinated a number of British Officials, among them Lord Moyne and Folke Bernadotte. These days the Israeli army has a special ribbon for those former members. Charming isn’t it?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Lehi_remembered

    Prior to the Zionist movement there had been Jews living in the area going all the way back to pre-christian days. They managed to co-exist with the their arab neighbors.

    The problem has never been that Jews and Arabs are fundamentally incompatible but that the fundamentally racist notion of a Jewish state taken by force from Arabs understandably rankles some Arabs. Particularly when that Jewish state has aggressively claimed right to and taken land again and again.

    My guess is that if Israel attacked Iran’s nuclear program, a small number of people would die in Iran. That’s because Israel has no fight with the Iranian people and has no desire to target civilians.

    *blinks*
    You obviously have no familiarity with the Israeli state. These are the same guys where a 13 year old girl accidentally got lost and got too close to a guard tower so they shot at her, and when she ran they continued shooting at her. And when she was down one soldier walked up to her and fired repeatedly into her corpse because the mortally wounded prone girl was “an immediate threat.” And then the Israeli courts acquitted him of any wrong doing.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440490.stm

    But yeah they totally don’t target civilians. That’s why the IDF has killed many times more civilians than the Palestinians (who are supposedly targeting Israeli civilians) have.

    the laundry list of crimes that occurred just in the latest flare up is long:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%80%932009_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Israelis

    You may not like Jews. And you may not like Israel. But you cannot deny these simple facts.

    I’ve got no problem with Jews, that vast majority of which are neither Israeli nor necessarily proponents of the state of Israel’s methods. Similarly Israel has a goodly number of peaceniks and people who are rightfully horrified by their state’s actions. I admire them. Part of my motivation in wanting Israel to change is that their current stance can really only end with genocide by one side or the other. Personally I’d really rather *not* have that happen.

    As for your “simple facts,” they are completely devoid of actual, you know, fact.

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  50. jusuf says:

    It is known that, throughout history, there have been many false prophets. For the purpose of their own gain, this kind of impostors have resorted to deceit, exploiting people’s naiveté. Also in the hadiths, it is revealed that false prophets will appear before Judgment Day.

    The Last Hour will not come before there come forth thirty Dajjals (imposters), each presenting himself as an apostle of Allah.

    (Abu Dawood)

    The above hadith reminds us of developments in our own day. By taking advantage of the hopes of Muslims and Christians about the second coming of ‘Isa (as), a number of deceivers have claimed prophethood and at times caused great suffering.

    Experts have noted that there has been a proliferation of so-called messiahs that began to appear in the 1970’s and which has since increased substantially. According to these experts, there are two basic reasons for this increase. First is the collapse of communism, and the other is the possibilities afforded by Internet technology.26

    The following excerpts have been selected as examples to help us better understand this phenomenon:

    The fiery demise of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, that claimed the lives of David Koresh and at least 74 of his followers…27

    Last week at two sites in Switzerland and one in Canada where 53 of Jouret’s followers and their children died. Police in two countries are trying to find out whether the deaths were mass suicide, mass murder or some bizarre combination of the two.28

    Sun Myung Moon, founder of the Unification Church, says he is the Messiah of the Second Coming and that his family is the first true family in all history! …The Unification Church was officially founded in 1954 by Moon, who claims that in 1936, when he was 16, ‘Isa (as) appeared to him on a mountainside in Northwestern Korea and told him that God had chosen him for the mission of establishing the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.29

    Grim evidence of the worst cult slaughter…Up to1000 followers feared dead as more graves found in Uganda…30

    It was an event that sent shock waves worldwide—the worst mass suicide in modern history. More than 900 people, members of a cult, were found clustered together in a South American forest. The dead were followers of Rev. Jim Jones, the leader of the Peoples’Temple in San Francisco.31

    The Qur’an also points to the advent of false prophets. One verse pertaining to this topic is the following:

    Who could do greater wrong than someone who invents lies against Allah or denies His Signs, or who says, “It has been revealed to me,” when nothing has been revealed to him, or someone who says, “I will send down the same as Allah has sent down”? If you could only see the wrongdoers in the throes of death when the angels are stretching out their hands, saying, “Disgorge your own selves! Today you will be repaid with the punishment of humiliation for saying something other than the truth about Allah, and being arrogant about His Signs.” (Surat al-Anam: 93)

    As it is stated in that which follows this verse, these people will surely receive their recompense for the lies they have fabricated.

    Thousands of people go to their deaths in obedience to self-proclaimed messiahs. Above, we see a mass grave in Uganda, and on the right, the followers of Jim Jones who had committed mass suicide.

    In our day, a number of false prophets have appeared, one after another, each proclaiming himself to be the Messiah. The fact that the signs of the End Times are happening in succession is an extraordinary occurrence that certainly should make everyone think.

    There is no doubt that there will be a time when all the lies of all these false prophets will be eradicated. The Prophet (saas) announced that, after the liars have gone, ‘Isa (as) would return.

    We have mentioned earlier that the Qur’an tells of ‘Isa (as)’s return to earth, and that Muslims and Christians alike eagerly await this event. There are a few hadiths from the Prophet (saas) that refer to the second coming of ‘Isa (as). The Islamic scholar Shawkani stated that there are 29 hadiths about ‘Isa (as)’s return, and that the information contained in these hadiths could not have been falsified. (Ibn Majah)

    There is another important item of information that comes to us through these hadiths. The return of ‘Isa (as) will occur during the second phase of the End Times, and will be an important sign of the Judgment. In this regard, the following hadiths are pertinent:

    The Last Hour will not come until you see the descent of ‘Isa (as) son of Maryam (as).

    (Muslim)

    “By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Maryam (as), ‘Isa (as), will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler.

    (Bukhari)

    The Hour will not be established until the son of Maryam (as) (i.e. ‘Isa (as)) descends amongst you as a just ruler.

    (Bukhari)

    The Prophet (saas) tells what ‘Isa (as) will do when he returns:

    At the time of his death, ‘Isa (as) will have reappeared on this earth for forty years.

    (Abu Dawood)

    ‘Isa (as), son of Maryam (as), will descend, rule for 40 years with the book of Allah and my sunnah, and die.
    (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan
    fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir al-Zaman)

    The Hour will not be established until the son of Maryam (as) (i.e. ‘Isa (as)) descends amongst you as a just ruler.

    (Bukhari)

    ‘isa (as), son of Maryam (as), will be a just judge and just ruler (in my community), break and crush the cross and kill the pig … The earth will be so filled of peace as a vessel is filled with water. The entire world shall recite and follow one and the same Word and none shall be worshipped except Allah.

    (Ibn Majah)

    The Hour will not be established until the son of Maryam (as) (i.e. ‘Isa) (as) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs…

    (Bukhari)

    Therefore, when ‘Isa (as) returns, errant doctrines such as those of the Trinity, the cross and the priesthood, and illicit acts such as eating pork, will be swept away, the Christian world will be saved from its heretical state, and all people will be called to live according to the true religion and moral values contained in the Qur’an.

    At this point, there is an important issue we must stop and consider. In the Qur’an and in the hadiths, there is no doubt that ‘Isa (as) will return to earth during the End Times. Today, on the other hand, some Muslims disregard the evident proofs regarding this return, and suggest that it is possible that ‘Isa (as) will return after the Prophet Muhammad (saas) comes. However, Muslims who think such a thing should attempt to interpret the relevant verses and hadiths objectively and without prejudice. And, secondly, there is no contradiction between the fact that Muhammad (saas) is the last Prophet and that ‘Isa (as) will return to earth. When ‘Isa (as) comes for the second time, he will not bring a new religion but will be subject to the true religion communicated by the Qur’an and the Prophet Muhammad (saas).

    The great Islamic scholar Imam Rabbani said: “‘Isa (as) will descend from heaven, yet he will follow Muhammad (saas)’s Way” (Imam-i Rabbani, Letters of Rabbani, Volume II, Letter 67); Imam Nawawi said: “… He (‘Isa (as)) will come and apply Muhammad (saas)’s way.” (Al Qawl al-Mukhtasar fi ‘alamat al-Mahdi al-Muntazar) On this topic; Qadi Iyad said: “’Isa (as) will rule with the rules of Islam and will revive the practices that his people have abandoned.” (Ibn Majah)

    The greatest Islamic scholar of the past century, Bediuzzaman Said Nursi have provided some interesting expositions of this matter in his Risale-i Nur Collection. According to Bediuzzaman’s analyses, ‘Isa (as) will return to earth in bodily form in the End Times and will contend and repudiate anti-religious ideologies that represent materialist and naturalist philosophy. Under his leadership, Christians and Muslims will unite and the powerful anti-religious forces will be eradicated. Christianity will be cleansed of its vain beliefs, heresy and its myths and become subject to the Qur’an. Bediuzzaman said that, in making this announcement, the Prophet (saas) relied on the words of Almighty Allah and that, therefore, it would certainly come to pass.32

    At this point an important question comes to our attention. How will ‘Isa (as) be recognized? Surely, the clearest indication that it is him who will be in possession of all the features common to a prophet as mentioned in the Qur’an. In addition, he will bring an important sign to indicate that he is ‘Isa (as). When he comes, there will be no one that would have seen ‘Isa (as) before in person and therefore there will be no one to recognize him. None will be able to recognize him by his physical appearance or by the sound of his voice. No one will be able to say that he knew ‘Isa (as) personally, or saw him at such and such a time; no one will have known his family or his relatives. All those who would have known him would have died 2000 years ago. Maryam (as), Zakariyya (as), his disciples, who spent years with him, as well as all those to whom ‘Isa (as) communicated the message of Allah, will have already died. Therefore, there will be none who would have experienced his birth, childhood, youth or adulthood when he comes for the second time. No one will know anything about him.

    As we explained in the earlier section of this book, by the command of Allah, “Be,” ‘Isa (as) came into the world without a father. Clearly, after so many centuries, he would have not any surviving relatives. In this regard, Allah compares ‘Isa (as)’s situation with the creation of Adam:

    The likeness of ‘Isa in Allah’s sight is the same as Adam. He created him from earth and then He said to him, “Be!” and he was. (Surah Al ‘Imran: 59)

    This verse reveals that Allah said “Be!” and Adam was created. ‘Isa (as) too was created by this same command. Adam did not have a mother or a father while ‘Isa (as) had only a mother when he came into the world. But, when he comes to the world again for the second time, his mother will not be alive.

    Therefore, the confusion caused by the false messiahs who will appear from time to time is rendered ineffective. When ‘Isa (as) comes back to the world again, there will be no opportunity to cast any doubt on the fact that it is him. No one will be able to find any viable reason to say that he cannot be ‘Isa (as). ‘Isa (as) will be recognized by that one characteristic that will separate him from every other person: not a single person in the world will know him.

    In conclusion, the information presented here should lead us to recognize that the time of the promises with regard to the coming of ‘Isa (as), and the things he will do, is near. Surely, it is our duty to be best prepared as possible to meet that blessed person who we have been so long waiting for.

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  51. Moses says:

    “I agree with post by Tlaloc. Israel is a bully and if they do strike Iran I hope the Iranians and Arabs destroy them. They attacked our American Ship without as much as an apology to our dead. We have many dead soldiers to help Israel get at their enemies. The Muslim world only hates us because we defend the S@#$ country.”

    Steve E, I am assuming you never graduated High School did you!?! You have got to be dumber than the idiots who elected Obama!!! Israel is a bully!?! Israel HAS NEVER started a war in it’s history. NON-EUROPEAN Palestinian Jews were the MAJORITY in Palestine up till the very end of the rule of the evil Ottomans. Karl Marx (yes the same guy who co-authored the communist manifesto) as a young reporter for the New York Tribune in 1859 spearheaded a trip to Ottoman Palestine and verified the local census at about 15,000 people. The makeup was 10,000 Palestinian Jews of indigenous and African ancestry. The indigenous could trace their property ownership and history prior to the Babylonian exile. The majority of the Muslim population explosion are NOT ARAB!!! However they and the world call themselves Arab to further the lie that they are the descendent’s of the Saladin Invasions and occupations. Fact is most were illegal immigrants who violated both Ottoman and British law as Mexican illegals do today in the US. They came to experience the benefits of the new immigrating wealthy European Zionists who helped the mostly illiterate Palestinian Jewish majority transform the mostly dessert and swamp land (the reason for the low 15,000 population) into prime real estate. Then the grand Mufti of Jerusalem(a full fledged member of the Waffen SS)
    modified Egypt’s Nasser’s Pan Arab-ism movement (the father of Nazism) into Palestinian-ism. The concept was that Palestinians are either Arabs (including Arab Christians), or any Muslim native or not, and NO other indigenous Palestinians exist. In order to prove his point the Mufti inspired the murder of nearly 70,000 Palestinians 50,000 of whom were indigenous Jews, and the other 20,000 where Druze, Bedouins (who actually are ARAB by the way!), and non Arab Christians.

    Let’s not forget that the Grand Mufti is well known to be the co-author of Hitler’s “Final Solution”. He went to Germany in the 1920’s after being inspired by Hitlers early writings, to plead with Hitler to re-consider his ideas on mass European deportations of Jews, and instead institute efficient schemes of mass murder to prevent those deported Jews from joining their indigo’s Palestinian Jews of Palestine.

    “The Muslims only hate us because we defend that…”. That has to be the dumbest statement you made! The US has NEVER defended Israel in any attacks period!!! We have only held them back from justified self defense. After creation of the state of Israel the US and their European allies left the Israelis to die, and made it a crime punishable by life in prison or the death penalty to provide the new Israeli state with weaponry. They were attacked repeatedly by Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia simultaneously! Yet Israel always one. Big bunch of bullies! They even allowed many of the Palestinian Muslim traitors to live on Israeli land and in houses in East Jerusalem (always pre 1950’s a Jewish area) stolen from Jews by the Jordanians after they attacked the so called west bank occupying East Jerusalem and the West Bank for nearly 20 years.

    Keep in mind ISLAM (that would mean all MUSLIMS) have declare war on the US since it’s inception as the greatest nation on earth in 1776. They attacked us with Piracy and demanded the same annual Jizza (extortion tax to allow Non-Muslims to live without fear of murder from Muslims). Jefferson refused to continue paying this tax and it sparked the First and Second Barbary wars against the Muslims of Africa based in modern day Libya. Remember the Marines Hymn “From the shores of Montezuma to Halls of Tripoli…”. When Jefferson asked the Tripoli-an ambassador to England why the Muslims are attacking the ships of a nation who never attacked them or any other nation the reply was that it states in the Quran that it is a requirement that Muslims forcibly convert, dismember, bisexually rape, or settle for the Jizza from non-Muslims, and that Muslims who chose to live in peace without the Jizza tax are not REAL Muslims and are violating the will of Allah.

    Wake up Steve, MUSLIMS hate ALL non-Muslims! Learn some Arabic and read the REAL Quran and Haddiths not the ones modified for non Muslim consumption. Then you will no the real meaning of the “Satanic Verses”. We are under attack from within by REAL terrorist organization like:
    CAIR, The Muslim Student Association, The Islamic Society of North America, The Arab Anti Defamation League etc. Our Muslim president invited a well known terrorist supporter, Ingrid Matson (also the current head of the Islamic Society of North America, and a professor of Islamic Studies at the Hartford Seminary) to pray at his inauguration. She said among other things “Ossama Bin Laden’s issues with the US are sound, and his philosophy is sound, but his methods are a bit too extreme”. Wake the heck up Steve!

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  52. Concerned Observer says:

    wow Moses… where did u dig up all that baloney??!!

    typical fear monger Zionist extremist you are…..

    dragging up info about piracy from over 200yrs ago does not play into todays events. the fact is, the state of Israel is expanding like a cancer with no cure, in its thirst for land and political conquest.

    the Zionist state drums up acts of violence and forces the “others” to retaliate with violence and then calls its military slaughter “self defense”!!!!

    i have no problem with the Jewish population as a whole, as many are decent people, but it’s the Zionist government that is the cancer on our planet. if it weren’t for our cowardly Congress that are consistently the ONLY/SOLO veto backers of any israeli reprimands via the United Nations resolutions or Human Rights Groups, the state of israel would have had peace long ago, but instead, with glee they continue with atrocities.

    look what is happening this week at the UN, the US is not going to show up, because of language reprimanding Israel on human rights!!!!! please, what a bunch of freckn’ COWARDS are CONGRESS has become!!!! let’s boycott this conference ENTIRELY because of one country (israel) being mentioned as a human rights violator!!! makes me SICK!!

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  53. mannning says:

    Every time the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is broached, a thousand partisan amateur historians pop up to inform us of the origins of the conflict, and attempt to assign blame to one side or the other.

    Since this land has been fought over for at least 4,000 years, the entire issue becomes shrouded in the fog of the quarrels of the ancient past, and becomes a quite useless, divisive discussion very quickly.

    Trying to establish a starting point for this discussion, we are treated with walk-backs into history that actually can never stop in time, and opinions about the major events, people, policies, and battles during the walk-backs that are quite biased, and are increasingly incapable of factual support as one move back in time. I see it as hopeless to admit the grievances of over 4,000 years of conflict into consideration.

    Is there a way forward that puts the past aside and tries to reach a realistic accommodation?

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  54. Johnny Potatoe says:

    I highly doubt the Israelis are suicidal enough to nuke Iran but if they did they have to be nuked in return.
    ————————————————-
    If and when Israel determines it can not ward off another multi-Moslem assault, it’s going to waste as many of its enemies as possible. If it can let go of itself, then a maximum First Strike will be launched against Iran, Syria, Lebanon and the Gaza Strip.

    It will, indeed, “be the first to introduce nuclear weapons to the Middle East.” And it will die happy.

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  55. mannning says:

    And then we get those who appear to be trying to place blame on the US for its past actions. The list of nations that have sinned and contributed to the current I/P situation is rather long, and their sins no less grievous than any the US has done.

    I see little merit in assessing blame ad infinitem, and attempting to build a score, or some other useless dodge, to somehow apportion the blame and the costs for fixes, or the number of bows and grovels our little President must perform in front of the world, apparently pleading for absolution of sins that he sees, to the barely muted laughter of the Islamic world.

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  56. anjin-san says:

    And then we get those who appear to be trying to place blame on the US for its past actions. The list of nations that have sinned and contributed to the current I/P situation is rather long, and their sins no less grievous than any the US has done.

    Yes. But I am not a citizen of those countries. We are responsible for keeping our own house in order.

    the number of bows and grovels our little President must perform

    Well mannning, did you protest Bushs’ lip locks and hand holding with Saudi leaders? Or are you just whining?

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  57. Tlaloc says:

    And then we get those who appear to be trying to place blame on the US for its past actions. The list of nations that have sinned and contributed to the current I/P situation is rather long, and their sins no less grievous than any the US has done.

    Actually very few other countries have sins as grievous as our in the area. Pretty much just the Brits and Russians. I can’t think of anyone else who even comes close to as much meddling with so many awful stupid consequences.

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  58. anjin-san says:

    And then we get those who appear to be trying to place blame

    You know, the stupidity of the statement is bothering me more and more. I am not interesting in “placing blame”. I do want us to be realistic about where we have gone wrong in the past, to learn from our mistakes, and to work harder at living up to the ideals the country was founded on, not just talking about it.

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  59. RVN68MIKE says:

    Stop the blather, nuke Iran and blame it on a meteor shower! I won’t miss any of them.

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