South Carolina Takes Down The Confederate Flag

Finally.

South Carolina Confederate Flag

While a crowd that numbered in the thousands cheered and waived American flags, the Confederate Battle Flag was lowered for the the final time after flying on the grounds of the South Carolina State Capitol for the past fifty-four years:

COLUMBIA, S.C. — Closing a chapter on a symbol of the Deep South and its history of resistance and racial animus, South Carolina on Friday lowered the Confederate battle flag from outside its State House, where it had flown for more than 50 years.

The flag came down amid heavy security and loud cheers at a Friday morning event that followed days of emotional debate in the State Legislature and, on Thursday, the final appproval of Gov. Nikki R. Haley, who had pledged that the symbol would be lowered “with dignity.”

Shielded across the decades by both Democrats and Republicans, the flag left its pole outside the State House only 23 days after nine black churchgoers were killed at Charleston’s Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church.

The flag, which flew above the State House before it was moved in 2000 to a spot next to the Confederate Soldier Monument, had long been a subject of deep disagreements and public protests. But it was the June 17 massacre at the church, which the authorities have described as a hate crime, that provoked Ms. Haley and scores of other elected officials in both parties to demand the battle flag’s removal.

The flag will be housed at the Confederate Relic Room and Military Museum, a state-supported museum near the Capitol, and its pole will be removed from the grounds of the State House.

“This is a high moment for South Carolina,” said Jack Bass, an emeritus professor of social sciences and humanities at the College of Charleston. “It’s significant. It could be a turning point.”

Scores of people gathered Friday morning near the flag, which the authorities barricaded on Thursday afternoon. Some stood with signs or shirts opposing the flag. Some waited through the morning heat in lawn chairs they brought from home.

“I thought about all of the African-Americans that lost their lives because of the flag, because of the hatred that this flag symbolizes,” said Theresa Burgess, a 48-year-old kindergarten teacher from Florence County who arrived at the State House a little after 6 a.m. “I knew that a lot of Americans would have loved to be here today.”

Ms. Burgess, a native of South Carolina, said the flag’s removal would bring an end to “decades of racism, decades of what this flag symbolizes.”

“I am overwhelmed,” she said as she sat the base of a statue of Ben Tillman, a South Carolina governor and a white supremacist. “I am overjoyed. I almost can’t even talk about it without becoming emotional.”

The removal of the symbol could have long-term practical impact. South Carolina has worked hard to lure multinational corporations to fuel job growth in recent years, and Mr. Bass and others believe that the state could have an easier time with that task now that the flag – revered by many white Southerners, but reviled by African Americans and many others around the world as a vestige of a cruel and backward era – is down.

The removal of the flag had been a longstanding goal among liberals here. But Mr. Bass and many other students of the state’s past and present said it was far from clear if this rare liberal win in a state thoroughly dominated by conservative Republicans will result in other policy changes sought by liberals and Civil Rights activists, such as an expansion of Medicaid under President Obama’s health plan, which could provide health coverage to thousands of residents. Ms. Haley, a Republican and staunch fiscal conservative, has opposed the idea.

Regardless, the battle flag’s rapid removal represents, by any measure, a stunningly swift turning point for a drama that has engulfed the state for decades.

The flag was originally raised above the capitol dome in the early 1960s at the height of anti-integration sentiment in the white South. It was moved in 2000 to a spot next to the Confederate Soldier Monument after an impassioned period of protest, and continued to be one of the most divisive issues in the state.

It was the outrage over the shootings at the Emanuel A.M.E. Church — cutting across racial lines — and the widespread admiration for the families of the victims, who stunned many by publicly forgiving the suspect, Dylann Roof, that opened the door to change. Goveror Haley, who had previously supported the flag, shifted position, and a bill calling for the flag’s removal sailed through the State Senate.

The State describes the scene from Columbia:

The Confederate battle flag is gone from the South Carolina State House.

The white-bordered, square banner bearing the St. Andrews cross was lowered for the last time Friday in front of the Confederate Soldier Monument by an honor guard of seven S.C. Highway Patrol officers.

They folded and rolled up the four-foot flag. Troopers walked to the north steps and handed the flag handed to Allen Roberson, director of the Confederate Relic Room and Military Museum, where the banner will eventually go on display.

The flag was driven to the museum by police escort a mile west on Gervais Street from the State House.

Later Friday, State House crews will remove the last visible remains of the flag. The 30-foot flagpole and decorative black iron fence will be taken down at 2 p.m.

The seven-minute flag-removal ceremony drew thousands of onlookers who filled sidewalks and lawns on the north side of the State House and spilled into Gervais Street.

Some in the crowd chanted shortly before the event, “Take it down.” Cheers rose when the troopers started to make their way to the flagpole along the lawn that separates the north stairs and the solider monument.

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley watched the historic ceremony from the Capitol steps with former Govs. David Beasley and Jim Hodges.

They saw ended an era when the flag came down at 10:09 a.m.

The Confederate battle flag had flown at the Capitol for more the five decades after being raised to honor the 100-year anniversary of the Civil War, which started at Fort Sumter in Charleston.

The flag remained atop the State House dome under the United States and South Carolina flags as the South wrestled against federal civil rights measures.

Some South Carolina state lawmakers and activists spent years trying to remove the flag from South Carolina’s most prominent building.

They won a compromise in 2000 when the Confederate flag was taken off the dome and a battle banner was raised at the solider monument along Gervais Street.

The flag was removed for good after the shooting deaths of nine African-American churchgoers at Charleston’s Emanuel AME Church last month.

The tragedy that shocked the nation prompted Haley to call for the flag’s banishment.

State lawmakers joined her. They voted this week to banish the banner despite objections from some legislators who argued the flag and other symbols of the Confederacy did not represent that hate demonstrated by the accused shooter.

The influence of the Charleston tragedy was evident during the Confederate flag ceremony Friday.

Haley and the former governors were joined by Charleston Mayor Joe Riley and Rev. Norvel Goff — who has taken over at Emanuel after its pastor, state Sen. Clementa Pinckney, perished in the shootings on June 17.

The same state Highway Patrol color guard that took down the flag escorted Pinckney’s casket to lay at rest inside the State House last month.

State Rep. Gary Clary, a retired Circuit Court judge from Pickens and freshman Republican lawmaker who was among the first legislators to call for the flag to come down in the wake of the shooting, brought his 13-year-old grandson Conner Pederson to witness the momentous day.

“It was just incredible to be able to witness history because that’s something that’s going to last a lifetime,” Pederson said.

Here’s the video:

Obviously, this is something that should have happened a long time ago, indeed one can say that the Confederate flag never should have gone on the grounds of the South Carolina Capitol to begin with, especially since the main motivation for its revival in the 1950s was as a rallying point for the defenders of Jim Crow. It’s also tragic that it took the deaths of nine people in a church at the hands of a racist terrorist to bring this day about. Nonetheless, it is good that the day has come and Governor Haley and the other politicians in South Carolina who came together to make this happen in such a quick and decisive manner do deserve some credit for their role in bringing this about. The debate over the measure to bring the flag was heated, especially in the South Carolina House, but in the end it was clear that the vast majority of the state’s political leaders recognized the fact that it was finally time for the Palmetto State to leave behind this symbol, a symbol that is clearly one of hatred rather than prejudice, and acknowledge the fact that their state is not what it used to be. So, even though this should happened much sooner, it’s worth celebrating the fact that it has happened and the fact that it is joined by measure in other states of the Old Confederacy to reexamine the way in which they are continuing to honor the legacy of a nation that isn’t deserving of honor or respect.

One criticism I’ve heard from many people in the weeks since the murders in Charleston is that taking the flag down isn’t going to bring back the nine people who killed and it isn’t going to cure the problem of racial prejudice. While both of these things are true, they are also largely irrelevant. I don’t know anyone who has made the claim that the flag itself was responsible for the murders in Charleston. Obviously, the responsibility for that act lies solely in the hands of Dylann Roof. Furthermore, I am also unaware anyone who is seriously suggesting that taking this flag down and removing other Confederate symbols from government buildings and state flags is going to cure racism in this country. It’s not, and anyone who made that argument would look foolish. However, that doesn’t mean that the flag should not have been removed, or that other symbols, such as Mississippi’s State Flag, should not also be changed, The Confederate Flag carries with it a very specific symbolic history, and it is one rooted in a nation that was founded for the sole purpose of protecting the institution of slavery and encouraging its expansion into new territories. It is a flag that has been used by racist organizations such as the Ku Klux Klan for decades, and it was revived as public symbol in South specifically to resist desegregation and intimidate African-Americans who were seeking the equal rights they are entitled to under the law. For a large segment of the population, it is as offensive as the flag of Nazi Germany and it does not belong in a place of honor on government property. Taking the flag down won’t solve all our problems, but it will reverse the great historical error committed when it was raised aloft to begin with, That may be small thing in some people’s minds, but it’s still important and all Americans should be glad that South Carolina has finally done the right thing.

FILED UNDER: *FEATURED, Race and Politics, US Politics, ,
Doug Mataconis
About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May 2010. Before joining OTB, he wrote at Below The BeltwayThe Liberty Papers, and United Liberty Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. anjin-san says:

    It’s a good day…

  2. Pete S says:

    Taking the flag down won’t solve all our problems, but it will reverse the great historical error committed when it was raised aloft to begin with

    This is an important point. It won’t solve all of our problems but at least it won’t be causing them anymore either.

  3. gVOR08 says:

    …cheered and waived American flags

    See, Rush was right, first they come after the Confederate flag, then they come after the American flag.

    Sorry Doug, no willpower, couldn’t resist. Spell check got you.

    Otherwise, a good day. Just a symbol, but the world’s a little better.

  4. superdestroyer says:

    The Republicans in South Carolina correctly decided that getting into a fight over flying the Confederate battle flag on the grounds of the State Capital was not worth it. However, in the long term, Republicans and conservatives in South Carolina are going to have to decide what is worth fighting over, if anything.

    State Rep,Jenny Horne (R-94th District) has already shown that some Republicans in South Carolina has be herded into giving the Democrats and the black establishment whatever they want with nothing more than an accusation of racism and hatred. Thus, the black establishment are seeing weakness on the part of Republicans are will soon be pushing for what is called racial justice and fairness but what is in application quotas, affirmative action, set asides, and the usually racial pandering.

    So, conservative and Republicans are going to have to decide whether they want to concede policy and governance to the Democrats in South Carolina (basically the black establishment) or whether there are some issues where a charge of racism and bigotry will not work.

  5. Tony W says:

    @superdestroyer: Yeah, man – don’t want those ‘blacks’ running things, right?

  6. michael reynolds says:

    @superdestroyer:

    with nothing more than an accusation of racism and hatred.

    Well, that and a mass murder, but since they were black, and since Dylann Roof and you share an ideology, yeah, the real concern is black people pushing white South Carolinians around.

    Racist moron.

  7. grumpy realist says:

    @superdestroyer: Taking the flag down shows: “we don’t want to be in-your-face jerks about this any more.”

    Not something that you would think important, right?

  8. superdestroyer says:

    @michael reynolds:
    \

    Roof believed that the government should assign people to racial groups and then treat those groups differently for the benefits of whites. The Democrats in South Carolina believe that people should assigned themselves to racial groups and that those groups should be treated differently for the benefit of blacks. I believe the government should treat everyone the same and that the government should never have a program that treats different racial groups differently.

    What is amazing is that progressives believe that have separate and unequal treatment for different racial groups is constitutional and good government policy just as long as whites and Asians are the ones being put at a disadvantage.

    What the Republicans in South Carolina have to decide is how far they want to cowed by the black establishment and how much they are willing to give up so that they “can put the issue behind them.”

  9. Liberal Capitalist says:

    Shielded across the decades by both Democrats and Republicans…

    There you go. Even on this, the ever-present “Both sides do it ! ” statement.

    Does it matter to the racists that the racist Southern Democrats of the 50’s and early 60’s became the racist Southern Republicans of the ’80’s and ’90’s?

    Nope. Not a whit.

    The GOP freed the slaves… The Democrats raised the battle flag.

    They will keep screaming this every chance they get.

  10. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Liberal Capitalist:

    These are people who have reinvented the entire history of, basis for and aftermath of a civil war. You think something as comparatively minor as reimagining the history of a tidal shift in the alignment and platforms of major American political parties is going to present them with any difficulty?

  11. Ron Beasley says:

    I live in Western Oregon and don’t remember the last time I saw the stars and bars. They say it represents “Southern Culture”, perhaps but it was a treasonous and evil culture. I am the descendant of Southern plantation owners who fought for the Confederacy. I am not proud of them.

  12. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Ron Beasley:

    The thing that struck me was the reverence with which they removed it, handled it, conveyed it, etc.

    You’d have thought they were dealing with the eucharist, not some rallying banner for segregation. Their attitude towards that flag made it clear that they didn’t view it negatively.

  13. Argon says:

    @HarvardLaw92: Good point.

    They should have handled like a seeping dressing from an ebola ward: Wear neoprene gloves, bag it, and dispense of it in an incinerator. Then take a bleach shower.

  14. gVOR08 says:

    @HarvardLaw92: If I stage managed this, a janitor would have taken it down at 3:00 AM. This was better. That very large, clearly in charge, black guy projecting whatever you do, WE will behave decently.

  15. Pinky says:

    @superdestroyer:

    I believe the government should treat everyone the same and that the government should never have a program that treats different racial groups differently.

    Yes! The Democrats at all times and in all places seek to divide. That is the link that connects their racist past to their racist present. That is the kind of thing you should keep repeating.

  16. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    One ugly truth about today’s left: they are not gracious winners. I happened to flip by some live coverage, and there were people singing the legendary chorus from “Kiss Him Goodbye.” (“Na Na Na Na, Na Na Na Na, Hey Hey, Goodble.”)

    Yes, it was a good move. Yes, the right argument prevailed. But that reaction — and the similar ones expressed above — shows that the top priority wasn’t winning, it was making sure the “wrong” people were humiliated and insulted. The left either doesn’t know how to be a gracious winner, or has no interest in being so.

    Personally, I thought that the best move would be for the GOP to jump in with both feet towards getting rid of the flag. Just remind people at every opportunity that the Confederacy was a creation of Democrats, that Democrats spent a century fighting every move towards full civil rights, and that the flag was put up by Democrats. The Ku Klux Klan was the militant arm of the Democratic Party, and counted among their stalwart supporters prominent Democrats like Robert Byrd and Woodrow Wilson.

    But that would have been crass political opportunism. I should have realized that the left was going to do just that anyway, and didn’t deserve any sort of consideration or respect.

  17. Grewgills says:

    Pinky, really? Your take away from all this flag kerfuffle is that the Democrats are the real ™ racists? I suppose the (primarily) Republicans that wanted to keep the flag up are the real ™ victims of the Democrats’ divisiveness.
    I swear ever since you cop killing comment you have become a caricature of yourself.

  18. Grewgills says:

    Jenos do you really think anyone other than Pinky is going to buy that? Try selling that load to any African American or anyone with even a passing understanding of US politics of the 20th and 21st centuries. You will get just about as far as you do every time you try that tired old argument here.
    Once again, the divide on civil rights in this country has been the former confederate states and the rural mountain West vs everyone else. Which party dominates the former confederate states and rural mountain West today? Which party dominates the coasts and the urban mid-West and urban mountain West today? Deny and deflect all you like, there is a reason for this and it isn’t the one you are arguing.

  19. michael reynolds says:

    @superdestroyer:

    I believe the government should treat everyone the same and that the government should never have a program that treats different racial groups differently.

    Right.

    You’ve written, what, 1000 comments here, always on the subject of race? 2000? 5000? You’re a running joke around here because of your monomaniacal obsession with reminding us that we are all in terrible danger of a one-party state.

    But golly, all you’re concerned about, really, really, really, really, really concerned about is that the 10% of the population that is black, the 10% that controls a huge 1% of the national wealth, is going to overrun us white folks and impose its will on us.

    All you are saaaaaying, is give whites a chance. . .

    You are a hardcore white supremacist, a racist, a hate-fueled obsessive little Nazi psychopath who should certainly not be allowed to possess a firearm and should probably be in a mental hospital.

    @Pinky:

    And now you’ve crawled in the gutter with him.

  20. michael reynolds says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    The White Warrior is back!

    Fresh from having his head handed to him so that he had to slink shamefully from the room. . . again. . . he’s back, saying things he can’t back up, talking drivel, making a sad ass of himself, and just generally lowering the intellectual temperature of the room.

    Well, maybe that’s unfair: superdestroyer had already lowered it pretty far, so in this case let’s just say you weren’t exactly a heat wave.

  21. michael reynolds says:

    What’s keeping James P? The Jenos, Pinky and SuperD Aryan Defense League is already here assembled.

  22. Liberal Capitalist says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    Personally, I thought that the best move would be for the GOP to jump in with both feet towards getting rid of the flag. Just remind people at every opportunity that the Confederacy was a creation of Democrats, that Democrats spent a century fighting every move towards full civil rights, and that the flag was put up by Democrats. The Ku Klux Klan was the militant arm of the Democratic Party, and counted among their stalwart supporters prominent Democrats like Robert Byrd and Woodrow Wilson.

    Wow. How easy it was for me to predict this.

    Clearly, you didn’t even have the awareness to read the earlier comments. Far too busy to bother, and too time-consuming before presenting your prepackaged opinion.

    All I can say in response to this is: Neener Neener Neeeeener !

    How’s that for being a great winner there buddy.

  23. JohnMcC says:

    @michael reynolds: I admire your restraint in describing our friend, Michael.

  24. michael reynolds says:

    @Liberal Capitalist:

    Not to mention that he tried this identical crap on another thread, was utterly refuted, and now, in dragging this tired trope back in here Jenos is putting is lack of honesty on full display.

  25. T says:

    @michael reynolds:

    What’s keeping James P?

    i’m sure he’s just getting into character.

  26. Grewgills says:

    Michael, as far as I can tell he has tried this shtick on nearly all of the threads about race relations here. I’ve seen dozens. His arguments are torn apart much more thoroughly than I can be bothered to do tonight virtually every time, yet here it is again. Either he has the memory of a goldfish or he just takes glee in knowing that each time he throws out this dishonest crap it will get a rise out of somebody. That or he is so thoroughly blinded by racism and partisanship that he actually believes the crap he is spewing.

  27. An Interested Party says:

    Yes! The Democrats at all times and in all places seek to divide. That is the link that connects their racist past to their racist present. That is the kind of thing you should keep repeating.

    Wow, that is a parody, right? Otherwise, it makes no sense whatsoever…

    Just remind people at every opportunity that the Confederacy was a creation of Democrats, that Democrats spent a century fighting every move towards full civil rights, and that the flag was put up by Democrats. The Ku Klux Klan was the militant arm of the Democratic Party, and counted among their stalwart supporters prominent Democrats like Robert Byrd and Woodrow Wilson.

    And yet, the overwhelming majority of black voters, indeed, the overwhelming majority of just about all ethnic minority voters, vote for Democrats and the Democratic Party…are all of these people stupid? No, it couldn’t be that, but, rather, they have a far better grasp of history and the current political environment than you do…

  28. Just 'nutha' ig'rant cracker says:

    @gVOR08: I agree, the high road was better in this case.

  29. Grewgills says:

    Some people’s sense of scale is truly remarkable. Keeping a flag that was explicitly flown to support Jim Crow and apartheid on the state house for 50 years isn’t even worth discussing. Singing “Na Na Na Na, Na Na Na Na, Hey Hey, Goodbye” when that symbol of racism was removed from the state house is so insulting and humiliating to some good ole boys that wasn’t meanin no harm. That is the real ™ injustice here, shouldn’t we be talking about their feelings now?

  30. Pete S says:

    @Grewgills: This kills me. South Carolina had to essentially be shamed into this, and now the people who wanted the flag gone are wrong because they weren’t polite enough about it? I don’t remember the Confederate battle flag being a symbol of friendly smiles and handshakes…

  31. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    Fact: it was a Democratic legislature and a Democratic governor (who is still alive and a lifelong Democrat) who put the Confederate flag over South Craolina.

    Fact: The Democrats never bothered to take down the flag while they held the reins in South Carolina.

    Fact: It was a Republican legislature and a Republican governor (a non-white woman, by the way) who took down the flag.

    Fact: The Democrats’ support was welcome, but not necessary. If every single Democratic representative had skipped the vote, it would still have passed by a 3/4 ratio on purely Republican votes.

    Fact: Liberals are most bloodthirsty when they are re-fighting battles won by others. We’re told that the South should have been more evenly harshly punished after the Civil War, arguing that the Republicans should have been even more punitive towards the Democrats. (They also want people to forget that the civil rights movement was set back decades by Woodrow Wilson, a blatant racist who praised the KKK and re-segregated the federal workforce.) They argue that the first President Bush should have gone on to Baghdad and overthrew Saddam Hussein back in 1991, skillfully omitting that the strongest opposition to that war was from Democrats (including Joe Biden, who voted against it).

    Yeah, the flag came down. Thanks to Republicans, who undid the actions of Democrats 50 years ago.

  32. Tyrell says:

    A diversion tactic by the Republican governor. And it is working.

  33. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    Fact: It was a Republican legislature and a Republican governor (a non-white woman, by the way) who took down the flag.

    And it only took 9 people being killed and a national outcry to motivate them to act after stubbornly defending it for 15 years …

    Even then, in the recent debates about this scenario in the SC Legislature, every single vote against removal, in both houses, and every single “excused absence” ducking the votes altogether), and every single amendment offered up in an effort to delay the process of removal came from

    * wait for it *

    Republicans …

    Why, they’re modern day Ghandis! Positively Christ-like even …

    How could we have been so blind? We’re lucky we have you here to point these things out to us … 🙄

  34. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @Tyrell: Democrats demanded that it happen, and it happened. Very quickly. Just what kind of a “diversion tactic” is it to do what the other side screams be done, doing it quickly, and with a minimum of grandstanding?

    This whole Confederate flag nontroversy is a “diversion tactic” by the left. You’re just upset that in SC, the GOP put an end to the silliness in short order, before the Democrats could fully exploit it.

  35. HarvardLaw92 says:

    Oh, and just because you mentioned it:

    That same Republican governor also strongly rebuffed the idea of removing the flag, saying in essence that none of the CEOs she spoke with cared if it flew, so why bother removing it?

    Yes, that was her entire argument – “business doesn’t care, so I don’t care.” End of story.

    No mention of the people of her state or how they might feel about it.

    She made that argument 9 months ago, when she was running for reelection, so you’ll have to excuse my perception that this recent piece of performance art was anything more than jumping on the train / flipping her own recent position on the issue for her own political benefit.

  36. James Pearce says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    Yeah, the flag came down. Thanks to Republicans, who undid the actions of Democrats 50 years ago.

    Only a Republican could bring that flag down, dude. If a Democrat even tried……

    Gov. Haley deserves credit for her leadership on this matter. Were it not for her call to act, it’s unlikely the Republicans would have done anything about it. Fact.

  37. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    This whole Confederate flag nontroversy is a “diversion tactic” by the left.

    Oh my. Perhaps you could explain to the group how Alinsky plays into this.

    But wait! We already know that! Because all liberals go through life with copies of Rules for Radicals in their breast pockets, as we want to have the book that contains the guiding principals of our lives directly over our hearts…

  38. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Argon:

    They should have handled like a seeping dressing from an ebola ward: Wear neoprene gloves, bag it, and dispense of it in an incinerator. Then take a bleach shower.

    I absolutely agree.

    Instead, they put the thing in an armored car to drive it 6 blocks down the street.

  39. anjin-san says:

    @superdestroyer:

    However, in the long term, Republicans and conservatives in South Carolina are going to have to decide what is worth fighting over, if anything.

    Well, there is always increased access to health care, better schools, repairs improvements to infrastructure, taking care of veterans…

    Oh, wait. Those are the things they oppose. Silly me. Keep in mind, I am still on my first cup of coffee.

  40. Lenoxus says:

    I’m a Democrat, but I don’t mind hugely if some people think the Republicans and Democrats never changed on racial issues, that today’s Democratic party is the same as the one that formed the KKK. In fact, I embrace it. Anti-Democrat spite is a functional (if less than ideal) pathway to recognizing that the Confederacy and its flag were evil.

    But once you’ve settled on the “Democrats’ flag!” argument, you have to be consistent, dammit. You can’t accuse Democrats of being spiteful and divisive when they demand the flag be removed. Who are they being spiteful against — themselves? Who are they dividing? If a Democratic voter burns a Confederate flag, aren’t they simply making the positive step of shedding their own party’s racist symbol? Why should a non-Democrat feel threatened by such a gesture? And how in the world can the flag be the evil symbol of those evil Democrats — and at the same time, its removal is just shameful pandering to African-Americans, according to superdestroyer? How does this work?

    Okay, maybe we’re dealing with a wild misunderstanding. The bulk of Republican voters and politicians do recognize that the Confederacy seceded over slavery, that the flag represents white supremacy. The only holdouts are some Democrats here and there. Thus, Democrats who make a deal out of the flag are doing an “Are you still beating your wife?” routine.

    Is that really where anyone wants to place their bets? Possibly.Take a look at this:

    I thought that the best move would be for the GOP to jump in with both feet towards getting rid of the flag. Just remind people at every opportunity that the Confederacy was a creation of Democrats, that Democrats spent a century fighting every move towards full civil rights, and that the flag was put up by Democrats. The Ku Klux Klan was the militant arm of the Democratic Party, and counted among their stalwart supporters prominent Democrats like Robert Byrd and Woodrow Wilson.

    But that would have been crass political opportunism.

    Jenos, do you truly believe that was the only reason so many GOP candidates waffled rather than attack the flag? Just being nice to Democrats? Really?

    “(T)he Confederacy was a creation of Democrats.” Yes. Democrat voter here, and I don’t deny it. This wouldn’t by any chance be the same Confederacy I’ve repeatedly heard was all about tariffs and state’s rights, would it? (Ah, I’m sure those apologists were Democrats, yep.)

    Again, maybe the parties never changed a whit. And yes, even if they did, the Democrats have a lot more evil in their history, a total which the Republicans are very unlikely to ever exceed. (For the record, I’m including most of the history of Southern slavery here.)

    But if you’re going to stick to that point… be consistent.

  41. stonetools says:

    @michael reynolds:

    What’s keeping James P? The Jenos, Pinky and SuperD Aryan Defense League is already here assembled.

    Heh, when you posted that, Micheal, I thought of SuperD pumping his fist in the air, then texting “Aryans, assemble!” to the others.
    Pman hasn’t gottten the message yet, because his mother told him to get out of the basement and take a break from his computer.

  42. Zachriel says:

    At the surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia at Appomattox, the Confederate solders were allowed keep their personal firearms, horses, and the officers could keep their swords. They were fed, paroled and allowed to go home.

    But they had to give up their battle flags.

  43. Pinky says:

    I don’t care that it was a Republican who took the flag down. That doesn’t matter. The flag is trivial. If it wasn’t the flag, it’d be a chicken sandwich or a drag queen on the cover of Vanity Fair. The Democrats are about stirring things up. They’re about division. They will do anything, take any side of an issue, usually both sides, just to spread discontent. The party of Andrew Jackson and racial division is the party of Jesse Jackson and racial division. They will poison anything they can.

    The Republican Party when it sticks to principles will oppose that division. We truly believe that this country and our economy both work by raising up everyone. The Democrats don’t. The Republicans see either everyone or individuals; the Democrats see potential factions. Ideally, they’ll be able to give everything to their own allies. But if they have to, they’ll give out everything and by so doing have the power to make every faction plead for their portion. In the 1960’s they made some tactical decisions that lost them some groups and gained them others. But they’re still identical in their thinking. A big government, run by them, apportioning favors.

    I understand why some of the OTB lefties see themselves as the non-racists. More like, they’re anti-racists. Anyone who’s read history knows what anti-racists turn into. All you have to do is read any of the Greek finance threads lately. People think they’re being noble and scoring points against racism by attributing bad traits to Germans. Guess what happens after a generation of that.

    The fact is, we have two parties in this country that see the other as racist. I’m not saying that both sides do it. I’m saying that one party, the Democratic Party, is founded on racism and eagerly practices division between races, classes, sexes, and whatever else they can lay its hands on, as part of its core principles. The other party, the Republican party, is founded on fighting racism and tries its best to unite people and to keep government out of the division business, as part of its core principles.

    It remind me of the old line about fascism in America: the triumph of racism in America will come from the Democratic Party, under the banner of anti-racism.

  44. Tillman says:

    Fact: it was a Democratic legislature and a Democratic governor (who is still alive and a lifelong Democrat) who put the Confederate flag over South Craolina.

    Fact: The Democrats never bothered to take down the flag while they held the reins in South Carolina.

    Fact: It was a Republican legislature and a Republican governor (a non-white woman, by the way) who took down the flag.

    Am I the only one confused by the difference in emphases here? Of all the things to notice about schlock the way it’s served is the least rewarding.

    I’m not certain which fool idea confronting me this morning is more so: the image macro of the Confederate battle-flag with the words “only ignorance makes it racist,” or this blatant trust in the reader’s ignorance of history to score the thinnest political victory thinkable.

    Hey Jenos, why did long-serving South Carolina senator Strom Thurmond switch from the Democratic party to the Republican party two-and-a-half months after the enactment of the 1964 Civil Rights Act? (enacted 7/2/64, switched 9/16/64) Easy answer is he wanted to be on the right side of history, I guess?

  45. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @James Pearce: Only a Republican could bring that flag down, dude. If a Democrat even tried……

    According to an article I just read, five states still commemorate the Confederacy on their flags: Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, and Mississippi.

    Alabama has a solidly Republican government.

    So does Arkansas. (Whose current flag was approved by Bill Clinton, BTW.)

    Florida also has a Republican governor and legislature.

    Georgia, too,

    And Mississippi? Yup.

    Funny how it was Democrats who put those flags up, and never took them down while they held power.

    So it looks like it’s up to those Republicans to clean up the messes made by Democrats, yet again. And, of course, this has to be the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANTEST THING EVAR, so they should immediately drop everything else and fix their flags.

  46. Tony W says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: Jenos – if you could, for just a few minutes, forget about the ‘jerseys’ of Democrat vs. Republican and instead think about “Conservative” vs “Liberal” I think you’d change your tune.

    As you well know, “Conservatives” (meaning racist bigots in this context) move between parties depending on whether that party currently aligns to their way of thinking. It is not wise for you to be defending self-described conservatives (no matter their party affiliation) because they are the ones who fought this change tooth and nail.

    If you just want to play D’s vs. R’s and pretend your Tea Party friends would tolerate Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, or even Ronald Reagan in today’s party – go ahead. The rest of us are living in reality.

  47. superdestroyer says:

    @michael reynolds:

    Thank you for proving my point. For progressives, you either agree with them or one is mentally ill and should not have constitutional rights. You are showing why politics is look like in the future and why the U.S. will not only be a one party state but will be a country where the government decides how to treat a person on the basis of one’s race, ethnicity, and gender.

    What is amazing is how progressives support policies that are blatantly unconstitutional but calls anyone who points it out as a fascist.

  48. superdestroyer says:

    @anjin-san:

    Does minority set asides, 8A contractors, and affirmative action make it easier to educate children, improve infrastructure, or improve healthcare or does it make it harder.

    Does not encouraging white flight, creating high crime areas, and discouraging academic achievement really helpful to progressives? How does treating people based upon their race or ethnicity progressive?

  49. wr says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: Wow, little Jenos must have gotten a raise at work. Because who could ever imagine he’d ever be able to afford pearls — and yet here he is clutching them with the best of the “I can’t criticize you on substance so I’ll make up new rules about civility” crowd.

    Way to go, Little Jenos!

  50. anjin-san says:

    @Pinky:

    The flag is trivial.

    So says the white boy. Funny, none of my black friends seems to think it’s “trivial” – they despise the damn thing.

  51. Tillman says:

    @Pinky: Utterly naive horseshit.

    The Republican Party when it sticks to principles [emphasis mine] will oppose that division. We truly believe that this country and our economy both work by raising up everyone. The Democrats don’t. The Republicans see either everyone or individuals; the Democrats see potential factions.

    How is this not “conservatism can never fail, it can only be failed”? You basically wrote, “As long as they’re righteous, they see both the forest and the trees.”

    The fact is, we have two parties in this country that see the other as racist. I’m not saying that both sides do it. I’m saying that one party, the Democratic Party, is founded on racism and eagerly practices division between races, classes, sexes, and whatever else they can lay its hands on, as part of its core principles. The other party, the Republican party, is founded on fighting racism and tries its best to unite people and to keep government out of the division business, as part of its core principles.

    Wait…

    The other party, the Republican party, is founded on fighting racism and tries its best to unite people and to keep government out of the division business, as part of its core principles.

    You’re gonna have to elaborate on this. I’m going to require book recommendations for this. This is money. The logic you used to reach this decision, if I could just patent it…

  52. stonetools says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    One ugly truth about today’s left: they are not gracious winners. I happened to flip by some live coverage, and there were people singing the legendary chorus from “Kiss Him Goodbye.” (“Na Na Na Na, Na Na Na Na, Hey Hey, Goodble.”)

    As an African American and a liberal Democrat, Jenos, I should be cock-a-hoop over this.
    But I’m not. Why? Because it took the deaths of nine innocent, church going African Americans at the hands of a Confederate flag waving racist to convince the Republican dominated government of South Carolina to do the decent thing.I’m going to give them some credit for doing the decent thing. But they should have done it much earlier( and yes, the conservative racists who once were Democrats should never have put it up in the first place).

    Why am I not rejoicing? Because the racist ideology that animated Roof is still living in the hearts of millions of white Americans, in and out of the South. It partially is the reason why South Carolina is rejecting expanded Medicaid, although it would help thousands of South Carolinians, because they think of it as Obamacare, which in their mind is code for “N!&&ercare”.Similarly South Carolina hasn’t even made a gesture toward the kind of gun safety laws that would prevent a racist ideologue from getting the gun that he used to snuff out nine innocent lives (Yes, I know a flawed background check helped him to get the gun. But then better laws are needed if one point of failure can cause a massacre).

    So no, I’m a little bit happy . But far, far more needs to be done before I am really saisfied.

  53. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @Tony W: Here’s how I see it: the Democrats have purged all but the liberals from their ranks, and periodically shove things a bit further to the left and hound out any who find the line has passed their comfort zone. That describes me pretty well — my own positions have drifted left as I’ve grown older, but nowhere near fast enough to keep me in the Democratic party.

    And it also irritates me a bit to hear how I should vote Democratic, because all the bad things that Democrats did have been retroactively reassigned to the Republicans, and the Democrats now own all the good things that Republicans achieved. Hell, now Doug is trying to show how Ronald Reagan would be totally copacetic with today’s Democrats. I’d give that the mockery it deserves, but with working almost 60 hours a week, I have to prioritize.

    Two states have Confederate legacy flags. Both were approved by still-living former governors who are still Democrats in good standing.

    You wanna get into a discussion of liberal vs. conservative, I am sorely tempted. But I am pretty comfortable in saying that should such a discussion start, and start going seriously and respectfully, the Peanut Gallery would immediately go at the civility in full howling gibbon mode.

  54. Pinky says:

    @Tony W:

    “Conservatives” (meaning racist bigots in this context)

    Heh.

  55. Tillman says:

    @stonetools: I admonish people to be magnanimous, but I’ll take the asshole who’s right over the gracious idiot. I won’t like hanging out with that asshole, but I’ll always respect her opinion.

    Because, trust me, if I respect the opinion of an asshole, it’s because I’ve thoroughly vetted those opinions against reality because I hate assholes.

  56. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @stonetools: The nut had a hell of a lot more going on than just a Confederate flag. And I would urge you to look at the responses to the shooting. There was pretty much universal support for the Church and the victims. The nut had zero help in planning and carrying out his attack.

    One lone psycho does not make a nation of racists. It doesn’t even make a group of racists. He latched on to several symbols that he felt represented his crazy beliefs, and acted on those crazy beliefs. The symbols didn’t make him do a damned thing.

    The removal of the flag isn’t some grand victory, it’s a bit of tidying-up of a historical messiness. It was a bad idea then, it should never have been done, it should have been undone a long time ago, and it’s a good thing, but it’s a completely trivial matter.

  57. Pinky says:

    @Tillman: Most any history book would do. Also any newspaper.

    As for the “when it sticks to principles” line, the truth is that not every party is pure. There are some people in the Democratic Party who don’t hate by race, for example, and some people in the Republican Party who do. But if you look at their stated objectives, the Democrats put people into classes and believe in a government strong enough to hand out rewards to them. The Republicans want fairness and a government that can’t pay off groups. The Democrats are all about set-asides and forward or reverse discrimination. They pit class against class by handing out goodies to certain groups. You can’t win if you don’t play is an old lottery slogan, but it could apply to any part of the government. A strong centralized government with multiple agencies and unclear regulations can pick winners. If they don’t like your team name, they’ll find an angle to come after you. We don’t even flinch anymore when regulators sit down with special interests to come up with tactics.

    Every day women are told lies by the left: about 77 cents on a dollar, or one in five women on campus. Every days blacks are lied to by the left: about shootings in Ferguson, or the dangerous power of an old flag. Every day rich people are lied to by the left about the inequality that they’re causing, and poor people are lied to about the minimum wage. Every story is about a potential victim, and the hero of each story is a strong centralized government run by progressives. Like I said, if you want to read about Democrats and division, pick up a newspaper.

  58. stonetools says:

    @Pinky:

    The Republican Party when it sticks to principles will oppose that division. We truly believe that this country and our economy both work by raising up everyone. The Democrats don’t

    Dude, there is this thing called the Internet. So we can locate things like this:

    The late, legendarily brutal campaign consultant Lee Atwater explains how Republicans can win the vote of racists without sounding racist themselves:

    You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can’t say “nigger”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.”

    and this:

    As part of his 1980 presidential campaign, Ronald Reagan made an appearance at the Neshoba County Fair where he gave a speech on August 3, 1980. The speech drew attention for his use of the phrase “states’ rights”. Critics claim that Reagan’s choice of location for the speech (the fairgrounds were just a few miles from Philadelphia, Mississippi, a town associated with the 1964 murders of civil rights workers) was evidence of racial bias.

    During his speech, Reagan said:“

    I still believe the answer to any problem lies with the people. I believe in states’ rights and I believe in people doing as much as they can for themselves at the community level and at the private level. I believe we have distorted the balance of our government today by giving powers that were never intended to be given in the Constitution to that federal establishment.

    and of course, Nixon’s Southern strategy. Then there are five Republican appointed Supreme Court judges voting to gut the Voting Rights Act.
    And I’m not going to even bother with many racist anti-Obama sigmns at vearious so called Tea Party rallies.
    It’s clear to any objective observer that the Republicans have been pandering to the white racist vote with divisive rhetoric and tactics since the late Sixties. And let’s not even get into their appeal to anti-gay bigotry in the 2004 presidential campaign. It seems , frankly, to be a guiding principle of the modern Republican Party to appeal to bigots through divisive rhetoric and tactics.

  59. Tillman says:

    @Pinky: What are your thoughts on exclusive scholarships for black people? Government-given but political handout to ensure the hum of a political machine that requires black votes to maintain power, a society making amends for three hundred years of slavery and racial oppression through modern quotas, a social dysequilibrium prizing accident of birth and melanin genetics over merit and expense? C’mon dude, you’re on a roll here.

  60. stonetools says:

    @Pinky:

    The Republican Party when it sticks to principles will oppose that division. We truly believe that this country and our economy both work by raising up everyone. The Democrats don’t

    Dude, there is this thing called the Internet. So we can locate things like this:

    The late, legendarily brutal campaign consultant Lee Atwater explains how Republicans can win the vote of racists without sounding racist themselves:

    You start out in 1954 by saying, “N!&&er, n!&&gger, n!&&gger.” By 1968 you can’t say “n!&&er”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N!&&er, n!&&er.”

    and this:

    As part of his 1980 presidential campaign, Ronald Reagan made an appearance at the Neshoba County Fair where he gave a speech on August 3, 1980. The speech drew attention for his use of the phrase “states’ rights”. Critics claim that Reagan’s choice of location for the speech (the fairgrounds were just a few miles from Philadelphia, Mississippi, a town associated with the 1964 murders of civil rights workers) was evidence of racial bias.

    During his speech, Reagan said:“

    I still believe the answer to any problem lies with the people. I believe in states’ rights and I believe in people doing as much as they can for themselves at the community level and at the private level. I believe we have distorted the balance of our government today by giving powers that were never intended to be given in the Constitution to that federal establishment.

    and of course, Nixon’s Southern strategy. Then there are five Republican appointed Supreme Court judges voting to gut the Voting Rights Act.
    And I’m not going to even bother with many racist anti-Obama sigmns at vearious so called Tea Party rallies.
    It’s clear to any objective observer that the Republicans have been pandering to the white racist vote with divisive rhetoric and tactics since the late Sixties. And let’s not even get into their appeal to anti-gay bigotry in the 2004 presidential campaign. It seems , frankly, to be a guiding principle of the modern Republican Party to appeal to bigots through divisive rhetoric and tactics.

  61. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    One lone psycho

    Except he is not “one lone psycho” he is one Stormfront devotee, one of many. He is one of millions who is devoted to the confederate flag.

    I’m also curious where you got your diagnosis of Roof’s mental condition. And, if we stipulate that Roof is simply a psycho and that his acts are something of a write-off on that basis, as you are doing, how it that the murder of Kathryn Steinle is not simply “the act of a psycho”? You personally have put a lot of guilt by association on other illegals in America for that killing, how is it that you don’t do the same in the case of the murders in Charleston?

  62. michael reynolds says:

    So, summarizing the position of the Aryan Defense League of Jenos, SuperD and Pinky:

    1) We don’t really care about the confederate flag, which is why we have to post again and again and again about the confederate flag.

    2) It was put up by Democrats and taken down by Republicans. Yay! Score! Team R!

    3) It was taken down because of nasty bullying by Democrats. Boo! Mean old negroes! Forcing us to proudly haul down the flag we don’t care about but can’t stop talking about.

    4) And let’s just ignore the 50 years in between the raising and the lowering. And let’s also ignore the fact that all the votes in favor of the flag were Republicans. Because: Robert Byrd!

    5) Robert Byrd again, and still more Robert Byrd! Because he was from, well, not exactly South Carolina, but he was a Democrat! A long time ago. And he’s dead. Been dead for five years. But still… Robert Byrd! There, I said something clever! Admire me. Or at least admire the racist website I’m relying on to do my thinking for me.

    6) We are not racists even though we support the confederate flag which we don’t care about and yet are very upset by because it’s just another example of black people pushing white people around. Poor, poor, white people. Oh, the lost cause! Which is somehow totally, totally, totally different than what Dylann Roof thought.

  63. stonetools says:

    @Tillman:

    I admonish people to be magnanimous, but I’ll take the asshole who’s right over the gracious idiot. I won’t like hanging out with that asshole, but I’ll always respect her opinion

    Generally, those who want to deny that someone is right get all mad at the person being right for their lack of civility and graciousnes-even if in fact they have been civil and gracious. Quite frankly, I juist ignore people who whine on over the lack of graciousness.

    I note here that liberals have admitted they’re wrong in the past (say over matters like airline and trucking deregulation) and they’ve gotten zero credit for it.Were conservatives gracious toward Obama when he admitted he was wrong over his “if you like your health insurance , you can keep it” gaffe? Hell no. Conservatives harp on it a million times a day , while not mentioning their many wrong predictions and outright lies about the ACA.
    So no, no really impressed about Jenos’ outrage aboout a lack of civility.

  64. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    the Democrats have purged all but the liberals from their ranks,

    Well, all except our President, who resembles a Rockefeller Republican as often as he resembles a liberal Democrat.

  65. wr says:

    @Pinky: “The Republicans want fairness and a government that can’t pay off groups. ”

    Hey, we agree! The Republicans want a government that can’t pay off groups — because they’ve used up all the money paying off invidual billionaires.

  66. wr says:

    @anjin-san: “You personally have put a lot of guilt by association on other illegals in America for that killing, how is it that you don’t do the same in the case of the murders in Charleston?”

    Because Roof is the same skin color as Jenos.

    Oh, I’m sorry — was that a rhetorical question?

  67. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @michael reynolds: Interesting points. As usual, spun expertly well, but still thoroughly spun.

    1) We didn’t start the discussion. None of us has the ability to put up story after story on the main page here about it, and if we’d suggested it, it wouldn’t have been heeded.

    2) Yup, thanks for acknowledging the reality.

    3) It wasn’t taken down by bullying by Democrats, it was taken down after the Democrats — who don’t want to own up to their culpability in putting it up in the first place, and have lost enough elections that they don’t have the power to fix their errors. The GOP’s motives were, as far as I can tell, A) to fix something that needed fixing, but wasn’t a real problem, and B) shut up the whiny losers.

    4) The biggest effort the Democrats have made since the Civil Rights Act has been to quietly bury their own past.

    5) Byrd was A) a long-time Democrat in good standing; B) a Klan leader; and C) stuck his name on a ton of buildings. So he’s a nice, prominent symbol of the Democratic Party’s racist history. But he’s hardly unique. Richard Russell, Woodrow Wilson, William Fulbright — all could be valid targets. Byrd just poses the easiest target — again, all those buildings with his name on them.

    6) Who’s supporting the Confederate flag? Who gives a flying f___ about it?

    It’s like the Birther movement. You hear a hell of a lot more about it from the left than the so-called “supporters.” It’s far more useful as a rallying point AGAINST than it is FOR. “Quick, someone somewhere is showing a Confederate flag! Round up the posse! And anyone who doesn’t want to be part of the posse is obviously a racist and a white supremacist!”

    Sorry, I gotta pass on the posse. I gotta worry about if my information was lost by the OPM, or if I’m being targeted by the IRS/Justice Department/FBI because I’ve shown Tea Party sympathies, and then get to work at one of my two jobs where I work almost 60 hours a week.

    BTW, America is probably the least racist nation on the face of the earth, both today and at any time in history. We’re not perfect, and this is certainly not an excuse to not deal with racism (REAL racism, not the BS we hear so much about), but it should be a point of national pride.

  68. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @wr: Because Roof is the same skin color as Jenos.

    1) Got any proof of that? I have a rather unusual skin color, and I don’t even match myself very well My left arm and right leg could come from entirely different people, for example, and my back from a third.

    2) Even if it is true, so what?

    3) Does your skin tone match the shooter’s, too?

    4) Who the F cares about 1-3? What the hell do they matter about anything?

  69. gVOR08 says:

    I haven’t done my standard rant for awhile and this looks like a good time. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, a conservative party exists to defend and enhance the wealth and power of the currently wealthy and powerful. They represent the interests of the 1%, really the .01%. Since that’s a deal short of a majority, they need to get a large number of people to vote against their own interests. The usual tools are religion and xenophobia. They’re drawing in Jenos and SD with ‘the browns are gonna get you’. They’re moving on from ‘the gays are gonna get you’. For most of my life it’s been ‘the commies are gonna get you’. They’re into ‘the Jihadis are gonna get you’. I greatly fear they’ll escalate to ‘the Muslims are gonna get you’. They’re working with ‘the atheists are gonna get you’ and ‘the unions are gonna get you’.

    Don’t worry, SD, if they have to drop ‘the browns are gonna get you’ they’ll find some other way to keep you on board.

  70. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @gVOR08: As opposed to the enlightened and progressive wisdom that says “the racists are gonna get you,” “the white supremacists are going to get you,” “the militias are going to get you,” “the corporations are going to get you,” “the Tea Party is going to get you,” “the Christians are going to get you,” “the Koch brothers are going to get you,” “the gun nuts are going to get you,” “the Mormons are going to get you,” “the Catholics are going to get you,” and so on.

    And yes, there’s a bit of overlap there. Your side is the one that comes up with all those.

  71. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @gVOR08: BTW, if you want to vote for a president that isn’t an old white person this time around, you’re going to have to vote Republican this time.

  72. gVOR08 says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: How is Jeb! Bush? not an old white person? And male to boot? You don’t seriously thing Fiorina or Carson have a chance, do you?

  73. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @gVOR08: Re-read what I said, chum.

    Or let me rephrase it: the entire Democratic slate is made up of old white people. Period.

    On the Republican side, you have a remarkable diversity of age, race, and experiences. Including, but not limited to, old white people.

    So if you want to cast your vote for a candidate who is NOT an old white person, you’ll have to vote Republican. Because the only Democrats running right now are all old white people.

  74. michael reynolds says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    As usual: you’re a liar. As usual: not even a good one.

    You do understand that the ambient IQ around here is about 20-30 points over your head, right? So that all the things you write that you think are clever just cause the adults to roll their eyes? The little evasions you work so hard at go nowhere. It’s like when toddlers try to play hide and seek and think they’re invisible because they’ve covered their own eyes.

    No one buys you. Not even a little. You’re too dumb to pull it off. And you’re so utterly dishonest you’ve fallen now to James P levels.

    So. sadly for you, the attempt to somehow disguise the fact that you’re no better than SuperD has failed and you are now quite clearly seen as what you are: a racist. No one here believes otherwise. You are part of the Klan wing of the OTB commentariat.

  75. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @michael reynolds: You are part of the Klan wing of the OTB commentariat.

    Considering that the majority of the Commentariat here would fit in quite nicely with the Weather Underground, anyone not eager to set off bombs against EVIL RAAAAACIST AMERIKKKA would be towards the “Klan wing.”

    And that is a truly ugly thing to say. I’d get offended and demand satisfaction, but the fact that I’ve gotten you to let your mask slip a little and expose your inner sociopath show yet again is enough satisfaction to me.

  76. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    The biggest effort the Democrats have made since the Civil Rights Act has been to quietly bury their own past.

    It’s amazing how full of shit you are. No one is trying to “bury” the past. What we are doing is rejecting your attempt at a bait and switch where the discussion is about the Ghosts of Bigoted Democrats past instead of the Reality of Bigoted Republican present that we are living in.

    So yea, around the time I was conceived, way back in the 50s, the Democratic Party was racist. By the time I was in Kindergarten, LBJ was pushing through the Civil Rights Act. And here we are today, where racism IS a major component of conservative politics, and an African American who is a Democrat is the President.

  77. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @michael reynolds: As usual: you’re a liar. As usual: not even a good one.

    And, as usual, when I stand up to your usual BS “REPUKELIKKKAN” talking points and rebut them with reality, point by point, you go into your usual sociopathic rants and insults. You seem to think that if you get LOUDER, no one will notice you’re not actually saying anything of substance.

    That may work with teenagers (your target audience), but I haven’t been a teenager for a very long time. Hell, I don’t think I ever was a “teenager.”

  78. stonetools says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    Martin O’Malley really isn’t that old.

    But hey it’s great that the Republican Party is letting some non-white, non-male people run for their Presidential nomination. Now if they could only let run some people who aren’t slavishly devoted to elevating the interests of the rich and powerful over the rest of us….

  79. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    Hell, I don’t think I ever was a “teenager.”

    Ah, I see. You were smarter and more mature and all around just better than the kids who had friends and went on dates and got invited to the parties and all that teenage stuff 🙂

  80. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @anjin-san: So, just what did the South Carolina flag have to do with the church shootings? The gunman liked one aspect of that flag, amongst a whole other bunch of things. And that’s it.

    He wasn’t a Confederate re-enactor.

    He didn’t have a Confederate tattoo. (As far as I know — if he did, it would have been plastered all over the place by now.)

    He didn’t belong to any Neo-Confederate or Neo-Nazi groups.

    He didn’t collect Confederate memorabilia.

    He didn’t have the SC flag on display anywhere.

    He didn’t change his name to Lee or Forrest or Jefferson Davis or try to honor any other Confederate.

    He didn’t have his car horn changed to play “Dixie.” (Again, speculating.)

    He didn’t shout “The South Shall Rise Again!” while he started shooting.

    He didn’t request a Mint Julep from the police.

    To call a connection between the shooting and the SC flag “tangential” is an insult to geometers everywhere.

    However, it has served one useful purpose. By ginning up all this OUTRAGE!!!!!! over the flag, we’ve managed to avoid talking about how the FBI screwed up and should have prevented the shooter from getting his gun in the first place. That’s Barack Obama’s FBI, by the way.

  81. michael reynolds says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    Right.

    And everyone totally believes you.

  82. michael reynolds says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    You don’t want to get into the FBI screw-up, genius, because then we’ll all point out that the three day automatic approval is a product of the NRA bought and paid for Congress.

    No system is ever fool-proof, which is why one builds in tolerances. Unless of course one is in the pocket of the NRA.

  83. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @stonetools: OK, O’Malley’s 52. He’s the outlier.

    Let’s run the numbers:

    Lincoln Chaffee: 62.

    Hillary Clinton: 67

    Bernie Sanders: 74.

    Jim Webb: 69

    Joe Biden: 72

    Elizabeth Warren: 66

    That makes the average 66. Dropping BIden and Warren (not officially running at this point) makes it 65.

    And it doesn’t change the racial composition (unless you count Fauxcahontas Warren, and I don’t).

  84. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @anjin-san: Ah, I see. You were smarter and more mature and all around just better than the kids who had friends and went on dates and got invited to the parties and all that teenage stuff

    Actually, that was kind of wistful on what I missed out by being prematurely middle-aged. I think I went straight from childhood to old fart.

  85. michael reynolds says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    I think I went straight from childhood to old fart.

    So directly from immaturity to senility. Yes, that finally, is something I can believe about you. Pity you missed out on intellectual maturity.

  86. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @michael reynolds: Yes, let’s go into the FBI’s screw-up. Funny how this problem — which has existed for decades — wasn’t complained about until they needed an excuse for screwing up.

    The city and county borders haven’t changed.

    The laws haven’t changed.

    They screwed up, and they need an excuse. And you’re eager to give it to them.

  87. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @michael reynolds: And I missed out on giving you money for your fantasies. Darn. Instead, I gave my money to Lloyd Alexander and David Eddings and John D. Fitzgerald and Robert Newton Peck and Diane Duane.

    This has officially gotten too stupid, and I have to get ready for work. I might check back in later… or might not. I have a third semi-job project that could use some of my attention. And while this is marginally more entertaining, it don’t pay the bills.

  88. An Interested Party says:

    The Republicans want fairness and a government that can’t pay off groups.

    BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You really are a parody, aren’t you? I mean, who, in his right mind, could seriously make the assertion that the Republican Party doesn’t cater to certain interest groups and is really all about being fair?

    Meanwhile, I will ask the question again…if the Democratic Party is so racist, why do so many people who would be treated so horribly by racists vote for Democrats in overwhelming numbers? Perhaps these people aren’t intelligent enough to see that they are voting against their own best interests? Tied into that…

    So if you want to cast your vote for a candidate who is NOT an old white person, you’ll have to vote Republican. Because the only Democrats running right now are all old white people.

    It’s lovely that the GOP is able to pop out diverse token candidates but it is actually the Democratic Party that is the diverse political party even though is it supposedly so “racist”…

  89. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    I might check back in later… or might not.

    Oh, no! Jenos is taking his marbles and going home. How will the rest of us go on?

  90. SC_Birdflyte says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: And probably the least racist state in the U.S. is Hawaii. Now there’s somebody important from Hawaii, but that person’s name is not coming to mind. Maybe it will if I concentrate hard enough.

  91. wr says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: Hey, you’re the one who defends every single white person who kills a black person. Maybe you’re simply so completely without self-awareness you haven’t noticed this.

  92. wr says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: “Considering that the majority of the Commentariat here would fit in quite nicely with the Weather Underground, anyone not eager to set off bombs against EVIL RAAAAACIST AMERIKKKA would be towards the “Klan wing.”

    T0 the vast and constantly growing list of things that Jenos knows absolutely nothing about, add “1960s radical political movements.”

  93. wr says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: Oh, and to that list you should probably add the definition of sociopath, which Little Jenos has apparently decided means “someone who was mean to me on the internet.”

  94. Pinky says:

    @stonetools: If you read what Atwater said, and read up about the Southern Strategy, you’ll understand that the Republican Party isn’t racist.

  95. Grewgills says:

    Pinky why don’t you share your version of what Atwater really meant and what the southern strategy really was. I do like a good alt history.

  96. humanoid.panda says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    They argue that the first President Bush should have gone on to Baghdad and overthrew Saddam Hussein back in 1991, skillfully omitting that the strongest opposition to that war was from Democrats (including Joe Biden, who voted against it).

    WTF?
    Not single mainstream liberal ever said that: in fact was the the standard neoconservative critique of HW’s pussilanimity between 2001 and 2003.

  97. Pinky says:
  98. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    They argue that the first President Bush should have gone on to Baghdad and overthrew Saddam Hussein back in 1991,

    Do you care to document this?

  99. wr says:

    @Pinky: Maybe if Mr. Williamson had managed to find room in that screed to explain that it wasn’t racism that caused his own magazine’s founder in his own magazine’s pages to consistently argue that Jim Crow laws were justified because of the inherent inferiority of black people I’d be more inclined to take him seriously.

    “He didn’t stop there. In 1957, Buckley wrote National Review’s most infamous editorial, entitled “Why the South Must Prevail.” Is the white community in the South, he asked, “entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally, in areas in which it does not predominate numerically?” His answer was crystal clear: “The sobering answer is Yes—the White community is so entitled because for the time being, it is the advanced race.” Buckley cited unfounded statistics demonstrating the superiority of white over black, and concluded that, “it is more important for any community, anywhere in the world, to affirm and live by civilized standards, than to bow to the demands of the numerical majority.” He added definitively: “the claims of civilization supersede those of universal suffrage.”

    And what method should be used to enforce the maintenance of “civilized standards”? According to Buckley, it should be a no-holds-barred defense, even including violence. “Sometimes,” he wrote, “it becomes impossible to assert the will of a minority, in which case it must give way, and the society will regress; sometimes the numerical [white] minority cannot prevail except by violence: then it must determine whether the prevalence of its will is worth the terrible price of violence.”” http://www.salon.com/2015/06/07/william_f_buckley_and_national_reviews_vile_race_stance_everything_you_need_to_know_about_conservatives_and_civil_rights/

    Yeah, I guess if I wrote for that rag, I might just hope no one else remembered, too…

  100. Tillman says:

    @Pinky: I enjoy how the author notes Democratic senator Strom Thurmond’s then-record filibuster against the Civil Rights Act in ’64; has just enough integrity to admit there is exactly one senator who changed parties from Democrat to Republican after Civil Rights passed, but not enough integrity to mention it was Strom Thurmond; and did all these in an article about how Democrats are attempting to cover up their history on race relations in the popular narrative.

    Because that’s what’s called a hint.

  101. Pinky says:

    @wr: I guess you’re ok saying that everything in the NYT is tainted by Walter Duranty, too? Yeesh.

  102. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    That’s Barack Obama’s FBI, by the way.

    Sure, just like Barack Obama’s Seal Team Six took out Bin Laden. I distinctly remember how much credit conservatives gave the President. President Bush, that is…

  103. An Interested Party says:

    If you read what Atwater said, and read up about the Southern Strategy, you’ll understand that the Republican Party isn’t racist.

    Yet again…if the above statement is accurate, why do overwhelming majorities of minorities vote for Democrats…

  104. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @SC_Birdflyte: And probably the least racist state in the U.S. is Hawaii.

    I’ve heard reports about how Haoles are treated there…

  105. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @wr: Hey, you’re the one who defends every single white person who kills a black person.

    Eff off, you lying sack of shit. I’m on record here saying that the shooting of Walter Scott was probably manslaughter, and the cop who shot Levar Jones had no business being a cop. I also said that the Tamir Rice case was one where the cop was 100% wrong.

    Normally, I ignore your blatant stupidity, but this one was so readily refutable

    You got the guts to apologize, or at least admit you were — once again — making crap up?

  106. Grewgills says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13
    Speaking to you as a white man who lives in Hawai’i, you have little to no idea what you are talking about. I’ve lived in the South East, the West Coast, Western Europe and Hawai’i. Hawai’i is the least racist and has the most open and welcoming culture of anywhere I have lived or spent more than a couple of weeks.

  107. Grewgills says:

    Grewgills
    On second thought, strike that. Hawai’i is a terrible place for white people. You will most likely get beaten on the daily. Nobody else move here.

  108. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @Grewgills: Speaking to you as a white man who lives in Hawai’i, you have little to no idea what you are talking about.

    Hence my saying I’ve heard things, not saying definitively or citing personal experiences. Things like this. But if that isn’t true, then that’s good news.

    And you needn’t worry about me polluting your island. I might some day play tourist there, but there’s no way in hell I’d want to live there. The climate would suit me very, very poorly. I’m rather content in my current climes.

  109. Lenoxus says:

    By ginning up all this OUTRAGE!!!!!! over the flag, we’ve managed to avoid talking about how the FBI screwed up and should have prevented the shooter from getting his gun in the first place.

    Since when is preventing anyone from obtaining guns a legitimate function of government? That would imply that guns, not people, kill people.

  110. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @Lenoxus: Logic fail there. If guns killed people, then you should make sure that no one gets guns. By discriminating about who gets guns, you’re acknowledging that the determining factor is the person.

  111. Lenoxus says:

    Jenos, I’ve decided to reply in the new gun-related thread.

  112. Pinky says:

    I’ve never spent enough time anywhere to safely lump everyone together in terms of their level of racism, or any other personality trait. But that’s what makes anti-racists special: they can group people together better than anyone. It’s that combination of righteous indignation and pre-judging that leads to catastrophe within a generation or two.

  113. Tony W says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    By discriminating about who gets guns, you’re acknowledging that the determining factor is the person.

    Ha! Please tell this to your buddies at the NRA so that they can instruct their employees in Congress to pass tougher gun laws – just improving Swiss-cheese background checks would be a start. But while we’re at it, let’s go ahead and let the CDC collect statistics so that we can use science to determine next steps.

    While NRA folks seem like perfectly smart people, they do not seem understand that reasonable restrictions – based on your own criteria above – help keep our communities safe. Maybe coming from you they will listen,

  114. wr says:

    @Pinky: Is Walter Duranty revered at the Times as their founder and spiritual guide? Does the Times continue to insist that Duranty was a great mind and one of the most important intellects of the 20th century?

    Do you have a clue about anything?

  115. wr says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: “You got the guts to apologize, or at least admit you were — once again — making crap up?”

    I hereby apologize for failing to acknowledge that you are the single least self-aware human being on the planet.

  116. Grewgills says:

    @Pinky:
    Of course you can’t tell the level of systemic racism where you live or spend time. There is absolutely no way to observe the level of racism endemic to an area without personally determining the level of racism of every single individual. Similarly there is no way to know if people in one area tend to like nascar or a particular type of music more than in another area. There’s just no way to see how people in one area might act differently in aggregate than in another area. I guess we’ll never know anything about people’s relative preferences in different geographic locales.

  117. Grewgills says:

    Jenos Idanian #13
    Beat ha’ole day was sort of a thing when my brothers (both approaching 40) were in school. Neither of them were ever really bothered and it is now more of an urban legend than an actual thing. There are still some resentments about how the monarchy was overthrown and the land taken, but that doesn’t generally descend into personal interactions much and there is very little systemic discrimination here. A big part of that is that there is no majority ethnicity or religion here, everyone is a minority. Nearly half the population is asian, but Chinese, Japanese, and Filipino all identify differently so that isn’t a ethnic block in any meaningful sense. Mixed race and caucasian are about even and make up most of the rest (a fair few that identify as Asian are actually mixed ethnicity as well). No one group really has the power to establish systemic racism against another minority group. That is very unlike my experience growing up in the deep South or my experience on the West coast or in Western Europe.

  118. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @wr: And you refuse to admit when you libel someone, even when the evidence you were simply making defamatory shit up is rubbed right in your face. Please tell me how that refusal to admit your own (repeated) failing shows how you are somehow a better person.

  119. Liberal Capitalist says:

    This is been a great thread !

    Where else can you see the Dunning-Kruger effect so clearly demonstrated.

  120. wr says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: Oh, noes! I’ve libelled the plagiarized screen name of a cowardly internet troll! My reputation, my very future, lies in tatters — all because I called an obnoxious lying genocidal* racist a racist. Oh, the humanity!

    *Although to be entirely fair to little Jenos, he probably doesn’t consider the mass slaughter of Muslims to be genocide, since he is completely incapable of seeing anyone who isn’t him as a human being.

  121. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @wr: You said something that was not only wrong, but easily disproven wrong. It was also defamatory and extremely stupid.

    The latter is typical of you. Nearly everything you say is usually defamatory, and always profoundly stupid. The only thing atypical about this one was how readily false it was.

  122. wr says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13: Sorry, Little Jenos, but the “some of my best friends are black” defense by obvious racists stopped working — well, it never worked, except among other racists.

    I do love the idea that I can “defame” an anonymous internet troll using a plagiarized screen name. You should really sue for all the terrible damages I’ve inflicted on you.