How The Reaction Of One Sheriff’s Deputy Rebuts The Arguments For Arming School Teachers

If a law enforcement officer with 30 years of experience can't stop an active school shooter, what makes anyone think a teacher with a gun can?

In the immediate aftermath of last week’s shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, many wondered why the school’s security failed to stop Nikolas Cruz either before or during his murderous rampage. Initially, it was reported that the school’s sole Resource Officer, a uniformed Sheriff’s Deputy, had failed to stop the shooter because he was in a separate part of the three-building campus and that the shooting had ended and the shooter had apparently escaped by the time he got there. Yesterday, we learned that the story was quite different, and what actually happened actually seems to undermine one idea that President Trump and many on the right have pushed that would allegedly make school’s safer:

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — The only armed sheriff’s deputy at a Florida high school where 17 people were killed took cover outside rather than charging into the building when the massacre began, the Broward County sheriff said on Thursday. The sheriff also acknowledged that his office received 23 calls related to the suspect going back a decade, including one last year that said he was collecting knives and guns, but may not have adequately followed up.

The deputy, Scot Peterson, resigned on Thursday after being suspended without pay after Sheriff Scott Israel reviewed surveillance video.

“He never went in,” Sheriff Israel said in a news conference. He said the video showed Deputy Peterson doing “nothing.”

“There are no words,” said Sheriff Israel, who described himself as “devastated, sick to my stomach.”

(…)

Sheriff Israel said he informed Deputy Peterson on Thursday that he was being suspended without pay and placed under internal investigation. At 12:37 p.m. on Thursday, sheriff’s office records show, Deputy Peterson, signed his retirement papers, which amounted to a resignation. He had been with the office for more than 32 years.

“The investigation will continue,” Sheriff Israel said.

The surveillance video, which was not released, showed Deputy Peterson remained outside the west side of the building for at least four minutes while the gunman was inside, according to Sheriff Israel. The shooting rampage at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School lasted less than six minutes. The video was corroborated by witness statements, Sheriff Israel said.

The New York Times reported on Wednesday that an officer from the Coral Springs Police Department who responded to the shooting had seen Deputy Peterson in a Stoneman Douglas High parking lot. The deputy “was seeking cover behind a concrete column leading to a stairwell,” Officer Tim Burton said.

More from The Florida Sun-Sentinel:

The police officer assigned to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School resigned Thursday, under investigation for failing to enter the building as a gunman opened fire and killed 17 people.

Sheriff Scott Israel said Deputy Scot Peterson should have “went in. Addressed the killer. Killed the killer.” Video footage showed Peterson did none of that, Israel said.

The sheriff’s office also said Thursday that two deputies were put under investigation for how they handled potential warnings about Cruz, including one from November in which a caller said Nikolas Cruz “could be a school shooter in the making.”

Peterson, 54, came under scrutiny after 19-year-old Cruz entered a school building with an AR-15 rifle and killed 14 students and three educators on Valentine’s Day. Cruz later confessed, police said.

The sheriff said video shows Peterson was outside the building for “upwards of four minutes” while students were gunned down inside.

“What I saw was a deputy arrive … take up a position and he never went in,” the sheriff said at a news conference. “There are no words. I mean these families lost their children. We lost coaches,” Israel said.

Peterson resigned, and subsequently retired, at 12:37 p.m. Thursday after he was suspended without pay earlier in the day, Israel said. An investigation into what happened will continue.

Peterson’s resignation ends a more than three-decade career with the agency, where he was often regarded by peers as a dependable employee who could communicate well with both staff and students.

The 6-foot-5-inch native of Illinois started with the agency in July 1985, after studying at Miami-Dade Community College and Florida International University, according to records released Thursday by the sheriff’s office.

Peterson had been a school resource officer at Stoneman Douglas since 2009. He was considered a trusted officer who “values his position and takes pride in protecting the students, faculty and staff at his school,” a 2017 performance review said.

His annual salary in 2016 was $75,673.72, according to sheriff’s office records, but he made $101,013 that year with overtime and other compensation. Peterson has been the subject of two internal investigations, neither of which resulted in significant discipline.

Soon after the shooting took place, Israel and Broward Schools Superintendent Robert Runcie were forced to answer questions about where Peterson was during the shooting and why he did not confront Cruz.

“I’m in shock and I’m outraged to no end that he could have made a difference in all this,” Runcie said Thursday. “It’s really disturbing that we had a law enforcement individual there specifically for this reason, and he did not engage. He did not do his job. It’s one of the most unbelievable things I’ve ever heard.”

Stoneman Douglas student Brandon Huff, 18, a senior, said he had seen Peterson standing outside the building and talking on his radio during the shooting.

Huff said he first learned of the shooting in a text message from his girlfriend, who said she was hiding in a corner and shots rang out.

“Two coaches went in and were shielding kids and throwing themselves in front of bullets and he did nothing.”

Peterson could not be reached for comment Thursday afternoon at his home in Boynton Beach. Neighbor Nelson Sandy said he saw Peterson leave his house around 3 p.m., driving his work vehicle and accompanied by at least two Palm Beach County Sheriff’s Office deputies driving their work vehicles.

“They were here today, three police officers and they all left together,” Sandy said.

Felicia Burgin, a ninth-grade English teacher, was locked in her classroom with students on the second floor of the building, as they heard shots from the floor above.

She said the criticism of Peterson is unfair. Peterson wouldn’t have stood a chance against the gunman in hallways that were filled with students at the time, she said.

“There is no one that is going to tell you a negative thing about Deputy Peterson,” she said. “He was an Eagle and he was committed to our school. I don’t know what he could have done other than literally died.”

We haven’t seen the video of the incident that revealed what Peterson actually did, nor have we heard from Peterson, and it’s unclear if we ever will. So, without that information available, we really only have half the story of what happened over the course of those six minutes that Cruz was shooting, what was going through Peterson’s mind at the time, or what he may have done in the short period of time that he had to react to an active shooter situation. It would also be helpful to know if Peterson was in radio contact with other members of law enforcement during this period, what he was telling them if he was, and of course what they were reporting back to him. If any of this occurred it would presumably be recorded on the audio records that one assumes that the local enforcement agencies make of radio traffic in real time during incidents such as this. That audio, if it exists, has yet to be released. Without this information, the most we can do is speculate.

The most generous interpretation of what Broward County Sheriff Steve Israel said yesterday is that Peterson was attempting to figure out what was going on, where the shooter or shooters might be in the building, and attempting to figure out the best way to confront and stop him or them while at the same time trying not to further endanger or panic the fleeing students. A less generous interpretation would be that Peterson, who had been on the force for more than thirty years before his retirement yesterday, quite simply froze in the face of danger notwithstanding his three decades of training. It’s also worth noting that it’s not at all clear that Peterson would have been able to find Cruz in time to stop him, or that he would have been able to stop him if he did find him. Nonetheless, he was hired for the specific job of providing security at the school and he failed to do his job. He also apparently lied to authorities about what had happened last Wednesday. Given that, it was appropriate that he was relieved of duty.

Leaving all that aside, though, the manner in which Peterson acted, or failed to act, German Lopez at Vox argues that it has a big impact on the merits of the proposal that President Trump put forward yesterday, and which Second Amendment advocates have been pushing for in the wake of incidents like this for years now:

Multiple simulations have demonstrated that most people, if placed in an active shooter situation while armed, will not be able to stop the situation, and may in fact do little more than get themselves killed in the process.

As Chris Benton, a police investigator in Pennsylvania, told ABC News, “Video games and movies, they glorify gunfights. [People] get that warped sense that this is true — this video game is exactly what I can do in real life. That’s not reality.”

The Daily Show also put this theory to the test in another — more comedic — simulation segment. Jordan Klepper, who was a correspondent with the show at the time, trained on the basics of using a firearm and got a concealed carry permit that was valid in 30 states. Then he participated in mass shooting simulations to see how he would hold up in such a scenario.

He failed — miserably. In his final test, which simulated a school shooting, he shot an unarmed civilian, and he was shot multiple times by the active shooters and even law enforcement, who mistook him for the bad guy. He never took down the active shooters.

The fundamental problem is that mass shootings are traumatizing, terrifying events. Without potentially dozens or even hundreds of hours in training, most people are not going to be able to control their emotions and survey the scene in time to quickly and properly respond.

“There’s never enough training,” Coby Briehn, a senior instructor at Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training, told Klepper. “You can never get enough.”

The FBI’s analysis of active shooters between 2000 and 2013 has another relevant data point: “Law enforcement suffered casualties in 21 (46.7%) of the 45 incidents where they engaged the shooter to end the threat.” These are people trained to do this kind of thing full time, and nearly half were wounded or killed.

None of that is to say that a “good guy with a gun” won’t ever be able to stop a shooter. We have seen some high-profile cases in which that happened. But the bulk of the findings, from news investigations to the FBI’s report to The Daily Show, suggest that this idea is often going to play out very differently than supporters like President Trump envision — and sometimes could lead to more innocent people getting caught in the chaotic crossfire.

We saw the reality of this unfold last Wednesday. It’s no doubt the case that Peterson was well-trained, that like most members of law enforcement that he regularly takes party in situations designed to test and train officers how to react to situations where they are likely to come under fire or be forced to make a decision about whether or not to use their weapon. Given his position as a School Resource Officer, it’s also likely that he participated in the “active shooter drills” that have become all too common, albeit unfortunately necessary, in America’s public schools and in other simulations in which he was being trained and tested in how best to respond to an active shooter situation in s public school setting. In addition to all of that, he also had, as I noted three decades on the job as a Sheriff’s Deputy. Despite that, he was unable to act to stop the shooter, and that fact makes one doubt that a teacher armed with a gun is going to be any more effective than Peterson was.

As Lopez notes, active shooter situations in venues where there are large numbers of civilians trying to escape or run for cover are among the most difficult situations that law enforcement can run across. We saw part of that in the report immediately after the shooting last week when it was revealed that Cruz had left his weapon behind and managed to escape by blending in with student fleeing the building. Since he was young enough looking, there was no reason for arriving authorities to stop him. As a result, Cruz managed to make it to the nearby Wal-Mart where students were gathering, buy a drink at the Subway nearby, and then go to a local McDonalds where he hung out even as law enforcement was scouring the area looking for him, and he likely would have escaped had it not been for a single local law enforcement officer who happened to be driving down a nearby residential street as part of the search for Cruz and spotted him calmly walking down the street.

Taking all of this into account, the idea that a teacher or other school authority who isn’t a member of law enforcement would be an effective deterrent to a school shooter, or that they would be able to combat a shooter in such a situation, quite simply falls apart. If a highly trained law enforcement officer like Peterson froze during a situation like this, what does that say about how a civilian is going to react? Add into this the fact that its unlikely that such a person is going to have anywhere close to the amount of training that someone like Peterson did before last Wednesday. Despite all of that, he either failed or was unable to do anything to stop the carnage in time.

One other thing that advocates of the “arm teachers” idea seem to forget is the fact that teachers and other school authorities already have a job in these types of “active shooter” situations. Just as it is their job to make sure the students safely evacuate the building through designated exits, in active shooter situations the primary task of teachers is to make sure their students are safe, either by helping them find shelter in classrooms and other parts of the building, or to escape the building in an orderly fashion that both gets them away from the shooter and out of the potential line of fire in the event law enforcement arrives while the shooter is on the scene. Expecting them to also actively engage a shooter while all of this is going on is expecting the impossible. Additionally, there’s a good chance that seeing their teacher armed and holding out a firearm while an active shooting situation is going on could lead students, regardless of what grade they are in, to panic and put themselves and their classmates in even more danger than they already are at the moment. In other words, Peterson’s example shows us that arming civilians is unlikely to accomplish anything and may end up making the situation far worse than it already is.

FILED UNDER: Donald Trump, Education, Politicians, US Politics, , ,
Doug Mataconis
About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May 2010. Before joining OTB, he wrote at Below The BeltwayThe Liberty Papers, and United Liberty Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. Hal_10000 says:

    This is not atypical. There are exceptions — the SRO at Columbine exchanged fire with the shooters. But while cops will happily engage in SWAT tactics 80,000 times a year mostly for midnight drug raids, they tend to hold back in these kind of situations. Taking up position, securing the perimeter, etc. I don’t think this means an armed response is completely useless — the Sutherland Springs shooter was stopped by armed civilians. But it does indicates that this it not a very good solution to the problem.

    (Also, I wish people would stop citing ABC’s “If I Only Had Gun” series. That exercise was incredibly biased. The active shooter in those situations knew which of the students was armed and was able to set up no-win situations in advance. It was, in no way, reflective of any kind of reality. You can make your point without linking to that garbage.)

    As I said in the other post, it seems that the likelihood of an armed teacher stopping a mass shooter — and remember mass shooters are very rare to begin with – is very small. And the risk of armed teachers misusing their weapons is not insignificant. This seems like a policy likely to create more problems than it solves, as shown by SROs who are frequently caught on tape beating up, body-slamming or arresting students but did little to stop this incident.

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  2. Liberal Capitalist says:

    Here’s a guy, my age, having to make some tough decisions. Questions like: Am I outgunned? Will I survive? Will backup arrive? Can I get the guy on his way out?

    I am saddened by the loss of life, but in this case I feel that Sheriff Israel was a dick. We hear of the militarization of police, but without the type of armor that our troops may carry into a potential firefight, the sheriff was berating this man for not running headlong to his death.

    A pistol or rifle vs an AR-15 is no match.

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  3. MBunge says:

    Mataconis, it’s not helpful for you to keep out-dumbing Donald Trump.

    1. If this guy is an argument against arming teachers, he’s equally an argument against having police officers at all.

    2. Daily Show segments DO NOT SUPPORT YOUR POSITION. Anyone who references a bit on a comedy show in this context looks like an utter fool.

    3. Should we ban women from owning guns? If a 250 pound man with a knife is trying to rape a 110 pound woman, we don’t want her to take a gun out of her purse to defend herself…do we? After all, the likelihood of her getting killed or shooting someone other than the rapist is probably pretty high.

    Please, please, PLEASE let people like Hal_10000 make the case against arming teachers. You’ve proven you cannot distinguish between things that support your view and things that undermine it.

    Mike

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  4. gVOR08 says:

    The cop in question should be punished. Like it or not, he took a job where he’s expected to risk his life. Cops paint “protect and serve” on their cars, but their attitude is that the most important thing is to go home at the end of their shift.

    That said, we don’t know exactly what this guy’s situation was, but picture yourself as a fifty year old cop with a pistol. You’re on one side of a door and on the other side you hear what we heard on the students cell phone videos; bang bang bang bang bang bang….bang bang bang bang bang bang. Are you going to be eager to open that door?

    This is really an argument for banning civilian semi-auto weapons so the cops won’t be outgunned. If we can’t ban semi-autos I’ll settle for banning “assault style weapons”.

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  5. mattb says:

    @Hal_10000:

    Taking up position, securing the perimeter, etc. I don’t think this means an armed response is completely useless — the Sutherland Springs shooter was stopped by armed civilians. But it does indicates that this it not a very good solution to the problem.

    Agreed. These situations are far too situational to predetermine an output.

    To that point, and I need to pull the article, during the Giffords shooting, there was an armed citizen who was on the scene (though he arrived late). If memory served as he approached, he had drawn, and had aimed at the person holding the gun. The only issue was that by that time, Loughner had been disarmed and the man holding the gun was one of the people trying to restrain him.

    In this case the person made the correct call and didn’t shoot. It’s very easy to imagine another scenario where that wasn’t he case (see a number of recent police shootings involving a misinterpretation of signals).

  6. MBunge says:

    @Liberal Capitalist: the sheriff was berating this man for not running headlong to his death.

    It was his job. It’s literally what he was paid to do. Would you feel the same way if your family were burned to death because firefighters refused to enter your burning home?

    Mike

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  7. Franklin says:

    While Peterson didn’t necessarily know what his opposition was, he could have correctly guessed that he was outgunned. Not everybody is a natural hero under such circumstances. I don’t mean to absolve him, this totally makes me sick to my stomach as well, but he wasn’t the right person for the job.

    Would it have helped if he knew that assault weapons were difficult to obtain? Maybe. But our gun lovers here insist the problem is handguns, not AR-15s and the like. Because if you can’t prevent every death with one law, you shouldn’t even try, right? As Doug pointed out in a separate post, banning assault weapons isn’t necessarily unconstitutional, right now. Banning handguns will remain unconstitutional for decades or centuries.

  8. michael reynolds says:

    I would immediately remove my children from any school that armed teachers.

    This is the kind of ‘idea’ only very stupid or very desperate people come up with. You really have to be a moron to imagine this would be a good idea.

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  9. gVOR08 says:

    @Hal_10000: The guy in Sutherland Springs didn’t stop the shooter until after he was finished. And I haven’t heard anyone ask if anyone in the church was packing, as seems likely in TX. Aside from that, yes, a good argument against arming teachers. But we shouldn’t be arguing against arming teachers, we should just laugh at it. Crazy idea from a crazy President*. That’s where we need mental health checks.

  10. Franklin says:

    @MBunge: As I said in the another thread, I’m not knee-jerk against the arming of teachers. I even agree with you (shudder) that this particular case doesn’t affect my opinion of arming teachers.

    As I said in the other thread, we would need more studies or simulations to help convince me that the prevention of mass shootings would outweigh the highly increased possibilities of accidental shootings, or kids trying to wrestle guns away from teachers during some heated moment. It’s conceivable to me that there would be some deterrent effect, but I don’t know of any proof one way or the other. The frequent right-wing claim that no-gun zones attract shootings holds absolutely no weight with me; most no-gun zones would have few if any guns even if they were allowed.

  11. michael reynolds says:

    Anyone who even for a minute contemplates this imbecility, try this: write us a four or five page realistic action scene in which an armed teacher confronts an active shooter. Go ahead, post it here, and I’ll show you why I get paid to write action scenes and you don’t.

    Spoiler alert: It won’t take me 30 seconds to take your scenario apart.

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  12. Not the IT Dept. says:

    Well, gosh ‘n’ gollies, folks, you mean it’s not as easy as it looks in the movies when Clint Eastwood just yanks out his old gun and takes out a bad guy with one bullet? Wow, who knew? Maybe Deputy Peterson was trying to think up some kind of witty remark like “Are ya feeling lucky, punk?” before he made his move?

    Seriously, I gave MBunge an upvote because he was right about something – it was the guy’s f**king job to take on the shooter. He wasn’t drafted, he wasn’t coerced, he joined the sheriff’s office voluntarily and if he wasn’t prepared for this kind of worst-case scenario then what the hell was he trained for?

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  13. Pete S says:

    @michael reynolds: I read a good summary this morning that essentially said: This is not a serious proposal. It is not really a proposal at all. But “Thoughts and Prayers” and “it’s too early to talk” are not working this time. And those intelligent well-spoken teenagers are not allowing attention to fade away. So since delaying is not working “arming teachers” is being put out as a substitute debate to prevent debates on genuine controls.

    Nobody is going to take you up on your challenge.

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  14. dmhlt says:

    If a kid playing in a sandbox throws a stone at the other kids, it makes no sense to turn around and arm the other kids with stones.

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  15. Slugger says:

    @michael reynolds: Simple. My hero takes off his shirt. Then he takes off his shoes to improve his ability to walk over broken glass. Then he yells,”Yippee-o-kyyeah, MF.” Then he neutralizes seventeen guys carrying automatic weapons with his handgun. And that is what people believe is realistic.
    When proposing solutions to problems, it is useful to look at what actually happens in real life. In real life, the armed forces of this world spend a lot of time on training and indoctrination to get people to face armed opponents.

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  16. Franklin says:

    @michael reynolds: I would greatly enjoy your offer to personally edit an action scene for free. However, I’m not much of a writer. I’m not imagining a successful shootout; a teacher well-trained in combat would be an anomaly. And even so, the best hope would be to slow down an active shooter with more firepower. What I am curious about is the thought that it might deter people in the first place.

    (By the way, I read your friend’s Grasshopper Jungle book … fantastic story and pretty amusing, if not a bit too heavy on the callbacks. I think I’m going to wait a year before giving it to my son, he’s just not quite at the maturity level for it yet.)

  17. JKB says:

    The failure of one “professional” highlights the value of having multiple people at the school armed. Every thing depended on one guy who failed to act. Yet an unarmed coach demonstrated courage under fire by shielding some students at the cost of his own life.

    This deputy undermines the fantasy that only the “trained” should be permitted to act. The training could have helped, but this officer obviously had not prepared himself mentally. Or something else happened. Yet the security of the school was left to one untested person. Very often a person fails, that is why you have multiple people in the position to act.

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  18. MarkedMan says:

    The idea of arming teachers is of course, a stupid idea. It is illustrative of the 9 year old hero fantasies promoted by our sick gun culture. There are 3.2M public school teachers alone in the US. Trump wants to give between 640K AND 1.3M of them guns. So now there are all these guns floating around in a high school full of kids where sh*t of all kinds happens. A teacher hears a commotion out in the hall with shouting and cursing and loud noises which might be gunshots. She draws her Glock and runs out to find chaos. In another classroom a belligerent 17 year old gets into a shouting match with a teacher wearing a pistol on his hip and they square off nose to nose, both of them full of adrenaline. In another classroom a teacher is called into the hall for a hasty conference which drags on longer than expected. She keeps her 9mm in a drawer and today she forgot to lock it, leaving a room full of curious 8 year olds behind.

    Contrast this with the NRA/Gun Manufacturer official fantasy of the former combat Marine, with nary a hint of PTSD, magically hearing a round being slid into a chamber through the closed classroom door. He instantly leaps up, his gun in hand in a moment and charges through the door. Despite all odds he looks in exactly the right direction through a crowd of noisy high schoolers and spies the shooter, perfectly framed through an incredibly lucky gap through all those teenagers. As he tucks and rolls through his dive, he shoots through that gap underhanded and backward and a single perfect shot drills the shooter right in the head.

    You know, there is a reason that when a movie shows a shootout in a crowd they switch to an over and above shot as soon as the shooting starts, alternating close ups of the shooter. Directors know that the audience would have no idea what was going on if they stayed at ground level and in the crowd. But unless our heroic Marine can fly 20 feet up and see through the ceilings and floors he would transect, then all he gets is ground level and in the crowd.

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  19. Kathy says:

    There’s only so much that can be generalized from one case. That said, training or no training, no one knows how they will act in a dangerous situation until they face one. Training surely helps, but it’s not a guarantee.

    But suppose there ha been an armed teacher, or a well-positioned, armed security officer. What would then happen is a few kids get killed, then the hero kills or stops the shooter. That is not good. It’s only less bad. But it would be trumpeted by some as a resounding success. So we’d accept mass shootings as normal, so long as they are not quite so massive.

    Suppose, though, that armed adults at schools prove a deterrent and reduce the instances of mass shootings at schools. That would be good, except the shooters may just move elsewhere. School is not the only place where you can find large numbers fo your classmates and teachers. There are field trips, parties, shopping malls, etc. Just as increased security in airports moved the attention of terrorists from hijacking and bombing planes, to shooting up and bombing airports, or mowing people down with trucks, the very same thing can happen with amss shootings.

    Not to mention there have been plenty of mass shootings outside of schools. the recent massacre in Vegas wouldn’t have been stopped if every one at that concert had a gun (try hitting someone high up inside a room).

    To be sure, gun control and other measures won’t end mass shootings forever. But they have a chance at working better than simply just arming the teachers.

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  20. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @JKB:

    the value of having multiple people at the school armed.

    So now the “good guy with a gun” argument becomes “good guys with guns”.
    Move the goal posts, much?
    Having more people armed in a school doesn’t negate the arguments against it, which are far more powerful than your NRA-stoked hero fantasies.
    If you want to stop innocent kids from being killed by machines designed to kill, then you have to regulate those machines commensurate with their purpose. Simple.

  21. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @MBunge:

    It was his job.

    Fvcking keyboard commando. I’d love to see you in a live-fire situation. Defecate yourself, much?
    You don’t even have the balls to condemn child molestation, sexual assault, or Russia’s attacks on the US…much less face a perp armed with an AR-15.
    Pu$$y.

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  22. bookdragon says:

    Let’s not forget that MN public schools had a custodian with a handgun in his car. We all know what happened to him: RIP Philandro Castile.

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  23. bookdragon says:

    @MBunge: Can we please, PLEASE, drop #3 from the gun lovers scenario list?

    Speaking as a woman who has not only worked with rape prevention but helped run women’s self-defense courses for almost 30 years now, the most likely outcome, by a LOT, in the scenario where a woman faced with a rapist close enough to brandish a knife reaches into her purse for a gun is that the rapist takes the gun from her. So now she isn’t just facing a rapist with knife, but a rapist with a gun.

    If you steal yourself to getting cut, you can fight back against the knife pretty effectively. It’s a lot harder to fight, and survive, the guy with the gun. Especially after psychological shock of having your ‘security item’ taken and turned against you.

    Also: Gun in purse? Have you ever tried to quickly grab anything out of a purse? Anyone suggesting that a woman carrying a gun in a purse would to be able to draw it quickly enough to react in an emergency either has zero experience of normal purses, is a complete idiot, or both.

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  24. michael reynolds says:

    I was held up at gunpoint once while managing a restaurant. Cops said the guy had a 9. As it happened, I had a .45 Colt Commander just under the register. I gave the man the money and offered to cook him a steak. It was a full restaurant – very much like a schoolroom in that sense – and had I drawn not only would I have been shot, and probably some of my people, but also customers.

    I have probably written 500 action scenes – everything from alien-on-alien, to human-on-alien, to human on human armed, and human on human unarmed. . . Unless you’re a hack you try to make these things realistic. There is no realistic scenario in which a teacher who suddenly hears an AR-15 popping off suddenly saves the day. It’s absurd.

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  25. michael reynolds says:

    @JKB:
    You are a pig who slimes traumatized children.

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  26. SenyorDave says:

    @Slugger: I actually think we need this guy:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3edi2Wkr5YI

  27. michael reynolds says:

    @bookdragon:
    Indeed. My wife was the victim of an attempted rape at gunpoint while walking toward our apartment. I actually heard her screams and when I ran out I found her face sheeted with blood. The guy had put a gun to her head and she, with remarkable presence of mind, faked a collapse and screamed when he lost his grip on her. For this she was pistol-whipped.

    Had she had a gun and attempted to draw it, she’d have been shot.

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  28. Timothy Watson says:

    It’s entirely possible that the deputy’s active shooter training was to wait until backup had arrived to form an active-shooter team before entering the building.

    This is completely different from the old “setup a perimeter” approach. A team is formed so that one officer provides cover to the other in hallways and while clearing a room. A single officer, entering by himself, has a very poor chance of surviving an encounter with a rifle toting shooter.

  29. Timothy Watson says:

    @MBunge: #3 is so stupid since most police officers are taught the “21-foot rule” which means someone with a knife can close the distance and deliver a life-threatening attack before they can unholster their weapon and shot and stop the attacker.

  30. michael reynolds says:

    @Slugger:
    One of the core differences between people who successfully write fiction and those who fail, is that a professional makes things difficult for the hero, and the amateur makes life easy. It’s a normal tendency to imagine yourself as some kind of hero. People are desperate to be heroes. But in order to fantasize about themselves they write scenes that dismiss reality. They write a game with rules designed to ensure their own victory, their own heroism, and because they’re amateurs they then buy into their own bullsh!t.

    The real morons then think they can make policy on the basis of their amateur-hour fantasies. This explains people like @MBunge: desperate to be a man of significance, a hero, and he thinks if he loses his gun he loses his chance at heroism. A symbolic castration. Of course in reality he was never going to be a hero. 99.99% of humans are not heroes. Duh. That’s why we single out the .01% and call them heroes.

  31. kevin says:

    @michael reynolds: Try this; someones coming down a hallway to your room bang banging; you are in the room with a loaded gun; I bet you take good cover put your gun on doorway & wait…spoiler alert you start shooting the gun man as he tries to find you & kill you. Your ancestors had to kill for you to be here…it is in your DNA…your just scared to aknowledge what you would do to survive. Know Thy Self..

    10
  32. Paul L. says:

    You guys are overlooking the most important thing. the SRO made it home alive and feels no shame for his inaction.

    “He believed he did a good job calling in the location, setting up the perimeter and calling in the description (of Cruz),” said the union official, Jim Bell.

    As is his Right.

    1st Rule of Policing: Police have the right and the duty to go home at the end of each watch. It does not matter how many non-law enforcement personnel are injured or killed or have their “rights” violated to achieve this goal as Police are entitled to impunity for their violence and protection from harm above all others.

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl:
    Civilians need to be held to a higher standard than the Law Enforcement caste that protects them.

    2
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  33. Jake says:

    @michael reynolds:

    Good thing you don’t have kids.

    21
  34. Liberal Capitalist says:

    @MBunge:

    @Liberal Capitalist: the sheriff was berating this man for not running headlong to his death.

    It was his job. It’s literally what he was paid to do. Would you feel the same way if your family were burned to death because firefighters refused to enter your burning home?

    Mike, no.

    As a former first responder, I can tell you that the FIRST thig that one MUST consider is: is it safe for me to take action.

    This is a lesson learned painfully by having former first responders run into an area with poison gas. As a result more victims. Lots.

    Assessing the scene before taking action is rule #1.

    John Wayne shi# gets people killed. In war and at home.

    If you want to help people, you have to be there that day and the next and the next. The whole Bullshi# thing of honoring Hero funerals is getting old.

    14
  35. bookdragon says:

    @michael reynolds: Still good thinking on your wife’s part. Other things that may work there are tactics like deliberately throwing up or peeing yourself – anything that might make him react with disgust and step away/release his grip. If you have martial arts training, that can give an opening; if you don’t it might still be enough to get him to run off and find another victim.

  36. Jake says:
  37. Ben Wolf says:

    @michael reynolds: I can’t imagine what would be wrong with my scenario of Mrs. Wilkes taking the necktie of a fellow teacher, lashing it to an overhead light like a whip, and swinging toward the shooter with P-90s blazing in both hands.

    11
  38. Liberal Capitalist says:

    Sidenote as a surprise read… Even National Review is calling bullshi# and saying the right has lost it’s mind:

    An Epidemic of Dishonesty on the Right

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  39. Liberal Capitalist says:

    @Jake:

    Rights

    https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/the-constitutional-right-and-obligation-to-carry-a-gun/

    Hilarious!

    This is a direct quote from the article and clearly their understaning (and apparently Jake’s) of 2A

    The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed. The right of the people TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS shall NOT be infringed. The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. What part of NOT do the illiterates out to subvert the Constitution NOT understand?

    I just LOVE the way they are calling out those who disagree, when they somehow overlook and leave out the actual words of the second amendment:

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

    Jake, just STFU with your attempts of intellectual dishonesty. It wont play here.

    In short: “Gretchen, stop trying to make fetch happen! It’s not going to happen!”

    18
  40. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Jake:
    @JKB:
    @MBunge:
    How do you gun fetishists reconcile the fact that the 2nd Amendment preserves the right to bear arms as a hedge against Tyranny; military, surveillance, and governmental overreach…yet arming teachers simply creates a police state in which pro-authoritarian tendencies, which the 2nd was meant to defend against, will thrive?
    You can’t. Because you don’t care about fighting tyranny…you just want your penile prosthetic.

    15
  41. gVOR says:

    @Kathy:

    the recent massacre in Vegas wouldn’t have been stopped if every one at that concert had a gun (try hitting someone high up inside a room).

    The odds of hitting the shooter are tiny, but they’d for sure have hit someone, probably several people.

  42. rachel says:

    @kevin: And then it turns out to be your son playing a joke on you. Too bad.

  43. wr says:

    @Not the IT Dept.: “He wasn’t drafted, he wasn’t coerced, he joined the sheriff’s office voluntarily and if he wasn’t prepared for this kind of worst-case scenario then what the hell was he trained for?”

    Shooting unarmed black men.

    14
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  44. MarkedMan says:

    Some actual, you know, facts. In 2005 NYC police that fired from 0-6 feet away only hit their target 43% of the time. These guys have been extensively trained, under regular retraining and find themselves in confrontational situations on a frequent basis.

    And in another study (maybe the same study, but I can’t find a reference on the Google), when firing at “point blank range” NYC police only hit their targets something like 20% of the time if they were human, but closer to 50% if they were dogs. Note that these second set of numbers are entirely based on recollection but I’m pretty sure are in the ballpark.

  45. teve tory says:

    Conservatives are emailing me death threats over my tweet regarding deceased homophobic pastor Billy Graham. The ethics on this don’t quite line up, but I’m sure their commitment to respecting the dead means they’ll only speak of me lovingly once I have been brutally murdered. @laurenduca

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  46. michael reynolds says:

    @kevin:
    1) Teacher lines her pistol up with door, gunman never comes in that door.
    2) Kids see teacher with gun, panic, block her line of fire.
    3) Kid from another classroom flees into the room, teacher shoots kid.
    4) SWAT member comes into the room, teacher shoots SWAT member.
    5) SWAT member comes into the room, sees gun, shoots teacher.
    6) What cover is available in a classroom that stops an AR-15 round? Exactly: none.
    7) Teacher fires, misses, gunman kills her and annihilates her classroom.
    8) Teacher panics, hides on the floor and lives with the guilt.

    I could go on, but I said 30 seconds.

    Like I said: amateur hour.

    13
  47. michael reynolds says:

    @Jake:
    You’re a racist pig who slimes traumatized children.

    15
  48. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    @MarkedMan: Hey, I’m calling BS right now. If “Hondo” can tap the guy from 5oo yards standing outside the helicopter on a platform, the teacher can tap the kid in a crowded school hall, no problem.

  49. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @kevin:

    your just scared to aknowledge

    You’re apparently scared of grammar.

  50. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @michael reynolds:

    Like I said: amateur hour.

    How about there is no active shooter and the teacher simply accidentally fires his/her gun, killing a student?
    Critique that scenario…

  51. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    @bookdragon:

    zero experience of normal purses, is a complete idiot, or both.

    Since we’re talking about Bunge, “both” isn’t out of the realm of possibility.

  52. george says:

    1) Arming teachers is a stupid idea unless you drastically change the qualifications required to be a teacher, put a huge amount of time and resources into training them for the situation, and pay them enough (say $200K a year) that its worth their while to risk their lives under the circumstances. That is to say, its simply a really stupid idea under any realistic scenario.

    2) A sample size of one tells you almost nothing. Generalizing on what this one armed guard did is as pointless as generalizing on any other sample size of one (and I say that as someone thinking that in the case of a 50 year old guy with a handgun against an teenager with AR-15, I’m betting on the kid with the AR-15 – better weapon, much faster reflexes – the guard probably did the right thing, his only realistic chance was getting the kid as he left the building). The trick here was to stop the kid getting the AR-15 in the first place.

    3) If we’re going to go the wild, crazy idea route, instead of arming teachers I’d suggest an AI system with lasers in every room, ready to zap anyone holding a weapon. Such a system doesn’t exist, but neither does a school of teachers who’d respond properly if armed.

  53. michael reynolds says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl:
    Or shooter knows about the armed teacher, shoots her first, proceeds with massacre?
    Or gun-totin’ teacher gets pissed off and draws on a kid?
    Or teacher drops gun, it goes off, killing kid?
    Or teacher forgets gun in desk and it’s stolen by a kid.

    If we sat down and wrote out 100 scenarios, at best one might conform to the fantasy.

    10
  54. James Pearce says:

    @wr:

    Shooting unarmed black men.

    Yeah, that’s it…. Maybe “resist” this nonsense.

    This is why we have to rely on the Parkland teenagers.

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  55. Jen says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl: A teacher in Pennsylvania back in 2016 went to the bathroom, removed her concealed handgun to use the loo, and left the loaded gun on the back of the toilet tank.

    One of her elementary school students found it.

    But sure, this is a great idea because mistakes never happen either.

    I’m in NH, and more than once I’ve seen news articles about some of our conceal/carry legislators dropping their weapons in the State House. Things happen–but things happening with loaded weapons presents a bigger problem than needs to exist.

    10
  56. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @michael reynolds:
    Or kid, perhaps depressed over losing his girlfriend, gets a hold of the teachers gun and turns it on himself.

  57. Daryl's other brother Darryl says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl:
    That argument was probably too complicated for the gun geniuses that haunt this site, so let me try another, simpler tack:
    For years you far-right-wingers have been blaming the Marxists in academia for the decline of our culture – now you want to arm the Marxists in academia in the name of state safety.
    Reconcile.

    10
  58. MarkedMan says:

    @michael reynolds:

    What cover is available in a classroom that stops an AR-15 round? Exactly: none.

    This. I mean, how many times in movies and TV do people hide behind their freekin’ kitchen cabinets which magically stop semi-automatic rifle rounds? Or the unbelievable tech of police car doors: no one can shoot through their awesome vibranium sheet metal, and they provide invisible protective cover for the legs exposed underneath. Or, and this is my personal favorite, flipping up a table in an office and hiding behind it, which makes the obviously extremely low IQ bad guy with a machine gun stop firing because, well if you can’t see someone bullets can’t reach them, right?

  59. Gustopher says:

    First, we need to retrofit all of the schools in America with heating ducts large enough for an adult teacher to crawl through. Then we can start discussing the action movie scenarios.

    11
  60. kevin says:

    @rachel: My hearing gun shots & screaming coming toward my classroom would not change my action of good cover & targeting doorway; gun man would be dropped even it were a mom pushing stroller, granny et al.; If they be rampaging they would take brutal shots from my gun, period. You gotta go down fighting for your life, cause yer gonna die someway;someday!

  61. PJ says:

    @michael reynolds:

    6) What cover is available in a classroom that stops an AR-15 round? Exactly: none.

    Easy solution.

    Kevlar school desks!

    Edit:

    Kevlar school uniforms.

    Kevlar whiteboards.

    Kevlar Hamster cage.

    Kevlar potted plants.

    Kevlar hallway passes.

    Kevlar food trays.

    Is there anything we can’t make out Kevlar to save the children?

  62. Liberal Capitalist says:

    @kevin:

    …my action of good cover & targeting doorway; gun man would be dropped even it were a mom pushing stroller, granny et al.; If they be rampaging they would take brutal shots from my gun, period. You gotta go down fighting for your life, cause yer gonna die someway;someday!

    If you were in the military, you would likely be court marshaled for friendly fire, and then sent to prison for murder. Only in Florida do people get a break for shooting random people coming through a door.

    Gun in hand, adrenalin up, brain off. Thanks for making Michael’s point of amped up people shooting the wrong person and likely getting shot themselves.

  63. Jake says:
  64. Jake says:

    @michael reynolds:

    Gaslighting

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  65. Jake says:

    @michael reynolds:

    I can tell you don’t have children, no father would put their kids in harm’s way. Well maybe someone on the left.

    1
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  66. kevin says:

    @MarkedMan: One guy flips table / chair as shield advances while other guy advances on shooter he can only shoot one way at a time; not great but better odds than huddling & waiting.

  67. kevin says:

    Gun in hand, adrenalin up, brain off. Thanks for making Michael’s point of amped up people shooting the wrong person and likely getting shot themselves

    If I kill the shooter would I not resolve the conflict? & the shooter be wanting to shoot me anyway regardless of my having a gun. You come thru that doorway with a gun & screaming outside you gonna get a harsh retort;

  68. Paul L. says:

    @Liberal Capitalist:
    What does that have to do with Military Rules of Engagement?
    Love Progressives defending the Law Enforcement Caste “Broward Coward”
    “Why would anyone expect a lightly-armed school resource officer to confront and kill a gunman with an AR-15? That would have been a suicide mission.”
    But allowing a teacher to defend themselves with a gun is as bad as the Trump tax cuts or ending Net Neutrality.

  69. Liberal Capitalist says:

    @kevin:

    One guy flips table / chair as shield advances while other guy advances on shooter he can only shoot one way at a time; not great but better odds than huddling & waiting.

    Kevin, you are proving yourself a troll, and not an intelligent one.

    The desk won’t help, or stop a bullet, and in a lock-out situation, there likely wont be multiple armed adults in the room.

    Reality vs imagined movie hero fantasy:

    9MM penetration test through drywall, simulating 5 walls (10 sheets). Still lethal after 5 walls
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0qgQoej5zE

    Drywall insufficient? How about brick?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lkUvixtRVw

    In your school superhero scenario, you are dead and no one ever walked into the room.

    If you are going to set up your gun fapping scenarios, do it elsewhere, m’kay?

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  70. kevin says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl: Marxist can live free & safe here in USA, got no problem with their weak minded logic helps identify the goofs that lap that stuff up; [ you can avoid a problem if you know it to be a problem] As long as Marxist teacher drops a bad guy all good; A good battle cry from WWII goes like this “SMOKE A DEUTSCHE!”

    10
  71. kevin says:

    @Liberal Capitalist: If I kill the shooter would I not resolve the conflict? & the shooter be wanting to shoot me anyway regardless of my having a gun. You come thru that doorway with a gun & screaming outside you gonna get a harsh retort;

  72. kevin says:

    @michael reynolds: Again with never ending what if’s…according to sum math…you can divide time & distance forever hence the bullet never gets to its target…per yer math [abstract reason]. Your words paint you as person who would lockup because of chaos. You got to take risks everyday.

  73. kevin says:

    @Daryl’s other brother Darryl: Ouch…ha ha…butt you not refute my below avg. logic of good cover[desk chair stack of books may make a NATO round survivable long enough to return fire/by time] & target shooter as they come thru doorway. Just figured out spellchecker Ha.

  74. gVOR08 says:

    @MarkedMan:

    Or the unbelievable tech of police car doors

    I’ve always enjoyed that. It’s right up there with good guy with pistol beats ten bad guys with Uzis. That and that all movie cars catch fire after any bump.

  75. gVOR08 says:

    @Gustopher:

    First, we need to retrofit all of the schools in America with heating ducts large enough for an adult teacher to crawl through.

    And with hangers that will support an adult.

  76. gVOR08 says:

    @kevin:

    One guy flips table / chair as shield advances while other guy advances on shooter he can only shoot one way at a time

    Ranks right up there with the advice after Sandy Hook that the second graders should have rushed the shooter.

    10
  77. Stormy Dragon says:

    Turns up that in addition to the deputy who was onsite when the shooting started, three other deputies showed up part way through and just hid behind their cars. It wasn’t until police from a completely different town started showing up that anyone actually went into the building:

    Sources: Coral Springs police upset at some Broward deputies for not entering school

    Starting to sound more like the Cowards County Sheriff’s Department.

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  78. kevin says:

    @gVOR08: Sandy Hook teachers did fight back there, tooth & nail; a loaded gun would have helped. Gun beats knife; Gun beats rocks; Draw a gun a gun not good odds but better than Zero. Worlds been a cruel place since time zero plus 1 second. Lock & load cause some time you have to eat the bear or else???

    10
  79. kevin says:

    @Stormy Dragon: Yep; you can only depend on yourself in most cases. 10 % of people do 50% of the work & 50% of the people do 50% of the work; get yourself around the 10% er’s

  80. the Q says:

    Hey, last year there were over 4,300 armed bank robberies.
    We need to give all the bank tellers guns if we follow the NRA logic.

    Last year, 9300 robberies of pizza and other deliveryman. Again, all pizza deliverers should be given guns.

    Or we follow the sage advice of one Archie Bunker responding to the spate of skyjackings in the early 70’s:

    “Now I want to talk about another thing that’s on everybody’s minds today, and that’s your stick-ups and your skyjackings, and which, if that were up to me, I could end the skyjackings tomorrow. All you gotta do is arm all your passengers. He ain’t got no more moral superiority there, and he ain’t gonna dare to pull out no rod. And then your airlines, they wouldn’t have to search the passengers on the ground no more, they just pass out the pistols at the beginning of the trip, and they just pick them up at the end! Case closed. ”

    To quote Marx, (Karl not Groucho) “History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce.”

    This recycled Archie Bunker arming of the teachers qualifies.

  81. kevin says:

    @the Q: Say Q you still writing that “causality loop” stuff? [from Star date 2018]; USA airports doing ok job so need for loaded guns on jets[US Marshalls exception]; pizza dudes if they checkout should be armed; bankers they are robbing us [joke] but yeah they should be armed if they clear. Phasers set stun not fun.

  82. michael reynolds says:

    @MarkedMan:
    When I was researching this trilogy called FRONT LINES set in WW2 I watched a lot of old Army training films of the era. One involved a practical if primitive demonstration. IIRC, they set a bucket of water on a shelf at the back of a 6-7 inch tree. Then they fired the short carbine round which penetrated the tree and hit the bucket. Then they fired the rifle – through tree, annihilated bucket. See! You can shoot a Kraut through the tree!

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  83. Sleeping Dog says:

    @mattb:
    Actually, he left his weapon holstered, as he was aware that he could have been mistaken by law enforcement or another citizen as the shooter. He did come across Lougher struggling with another civilian who had control, but not possession of the gun. He acknowledged to reporters that he may have shot the wrong person if he had drawn his gun.

  84. Just 'nutha ig'nint cracker says:

    Don’t have a clip of it, but I have to admit that I did enjoy hearing Ted Cruz admit (and with pride at that) that the GOP is the party of Homer Simpson.

  85. Stormy Dragon says:

    @MarkedMan:

    Or the unbelievable tech of police car doors

    The doors on most police cars have a kevlar lining, so they are actually partially bullet proof. Newer ones are adding ceramic plates that can stop high powered rounds as well:

    Ford bulks up bulletproofing in police cars

  86. Kari Q says:

    There was a local incident of a man with an “assault style weapon and bullet proof vest” spotted near a large apartment complex recently. That was the description provided by the police officers who spotted the man after responding to the call from a citizen who described a man “with a big a** gun and body armor.”

    The police saw the man, but did not immediately arrest him. They, after all, were massively outgunned and the suspect was wearing a bullet proof vest. They called for backup. The individual got away, but was found the following day and sent for a mental health evaluation. Since no one was hurt, it’s easy to think they made the right call. But what if he had walked through the complex and opened fire on anyone he saw? Would those first officers on the scene be criticized for failing to stop him?

    And what if they had tried to arrest him? Would they have been shot?

    Real life isn’t the movie, and it’s not always clear what the right response is.

  87. Jim Brown 32 says:

    @MBunge: Fires are known quantities and firefighters are equipped to fight them. If per chance they are missing some equipment…say an extra long ladder, etc. We do not ask them to sacrifice themselves for the simple reason they are public servants. There are scenarios where fireman will not enter a building to spaceflight because of the danger of the structure imploding them. A school shooting is an ambush. The shooter has the element of surprise and the advantage. That SRO would have simply been number 18 and had candles lit with thoughts and prayers from people that haven’t the slightest idea of how an actual gunfight goes down. A service weapon and a vest rated for up to .45 in close quarters means he might as well have engaged the shooter with rock. The absolute minimum I would have entered that building alone with would have been a shotgun…otherwise I would waited for at least 1 other officer before entering. I expect officers to take some risks…but not recklessly sacrifice themselves

  88. Gustopher says:

    The stupidity from the gun crowd here is amazing.

    You might be better off with a gun in the unlikely incident of a school shooting (assuming you don’t shoot innocent people, or get shot by the SWAT team), but you also have to maintain that gun securely every single minute you’re not being attacked.

    We know that a gun in the house makes people less safe — the statistics have born this out year after year. You’re more likely to shoot yourself or a family member than any intruder.

    There is no reason to think that schools are going to be any better.

    5
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  89. JohnMcC says:

    Everyone has been fixated on action-movie scenarios. What about a political-thriller. Like, say, NEA operatives line up union members to volunteer to be gun-carriers. Say the union forms them into units (gotta cover for sick days and such, get organized) and when the next federal budget cuts provisions for school security (which the ‘tax cut budget’ just cut) — they form the nucleus of a successful left-wing government take over!

    Yeah!

    What did I win?

  90. Stormy Dragon says:

    @Jim Brown 32:

    They had four deputies and STILL didn’t go in. It wasn’t until police from a completely different town showed up that anyone actually went in.

    I’d also note that if Cruz had been accused of selling meth, these guys would have been happy to bust into his house at 2am, shoot his dog, and smack around the rest of his family.

    Police are all gung ho when it comes to assaulting defenseless people, but the moment there’s any danger, they just want to sit outside and leave the public to fend for themselves. Meanwhile, we spend millions of dollars on equipment and training for situations just like this, and then when the moment comes, it’s completely useless.

    If all police can be counted on is to investigate after the smoke clears, why bother having armed police at all?

  91. al-Ameda says:

    @Jake:

    I can tell you don’t have children, no father would put their kids in harm’s way. Well maybe someone on the left.

    So, not providing teachers with weaponry is putting your children in harm’s way?

    I have two grown daughters who managed to go through school, and graduate from college, and never were in classrooms where teachers had guns. I had no idea that I was a bad parent.

    So, I guess that after-the-fact thoughts and prayers are just not enough?

  92. @kevin: Where are the classroom (and perhaps hallway) full of panicked children in this scenario?

    Also: how quickly are you able to ascertain what the noise you hear actually is?

    Ever been teaching when the fire alarm goes off? (A device meant to indicate danger). Is your immediate reaction to jump into action because of danger, or is it to assume that it is a false alarm?

    Ever hear a really weird noise while teaching and spend several second trying to figure out what it is?

    How many seconds does it take for your brain to process what is going on? And how many of those same seconds makes it too late to act, even if you are armed? How many of those same second are used by others around you to create more chaos, difficulty and/or distraction?

  93. @kevin:

    If they be rampaging they would take brutal shots from my gun, period. You gotta go down fighting for your life, cause yer gonna die someway;someday!

    We have now entered Poe’s Law territory.

  94. MarkedMan says:

    @Steven L. Taylor: I had assumed Kevin was just being sarcastic and was surprised that so many were taking him seriously. So yeah, Poe’s Law.

  95. kevin says:

    @Steven L. Taylor: I knew I heard that law somewhere before so thanks for cite. We now find at least 4 Armed Broward Sheriffs were waiting safely outside till the bloodbath stopped. These Armed Hero’s then thread cautiously over the bloody tile to clear the school. Example of Poe’s Law playing out when your kid’s or your life hangs out to be snatched?We are over paying in blood & treasure. If you have gun & they are shooting at U…shoot back! No gun? Then pray your Police Dept. did not quota hire.

  96. kevin says:

    @Steven L. Taylor: Sure reaction differs in humans that be genetic. The mind would be able to quickly glean the type of threat screaming & bang, bang are from. If a grown adult has a gun during attack & a general plan of action, they would dramatically raise the odds of surviving that type of attack on them & kids. It’s not the end all but you can hedge your life for another moment in time.

  97. kevin says:

    @Stormy Dragon: I see your posts evolving as you get more facts. The Broward Co. Sheriffs are being shown as poorly trained, led & devoid of character. That be true in a lot of places & disiplines. Regression tools prove this on paper & our eyes now see it in 3D. What does one due with this insight? I would argue locally, exercise 2nd Right & prepare everyday that it will be a bad day. Then take some time to enjoy what good the Universe offers. Stay vigilant my friends.

  98. kevin says:

    @Liberal Capitalist: Not sure what a troll I be. But if typing my thoughts so be it. Your odds will improve if you are armed during, God forbid, a horror. They will also improve for yourself & those around you if pick up a chair/ desk, text book & attack or shield. How much? Is it worth it? I think yes.

  99. Turgid Jacobian says:

    @kevin: Just go away, man. Even the most boring trolls here are usually far more coherent than you’ve been so far.

  100. mattb says:

    @Sleeping Dog:

    Actually, he left his weapon holstered, as he was aware that he could have been mistaken by law enforcement or another citizen as the shooter.

    You are completely right. I found the account and he had disengaged the safety, but had not drawn:
    https://www.denverpost.com/2011/01/15/armed-bystanders-reaction-in-ariz-shootings-illustrates-complexity-of-gun-debate/

    Also, thought folks might appreciate the reality of what can happen when you are reacting in this type of unfolding situation:
    “Texas police shoot man who disarmed possible church shooter”
    https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/Texas-police-shoot-man-who-disarmed-possible-12704202.php

  101. Jim Brown 32 says:

    @Stormy Dragon: I would agree that after a 2nd officer arrived it was time to enter the building and make their way to the sound of gun fire. The fact that all 4 set up a perimeter to wait for a tactical team is an indication of department policy. The other PD apparently had no such restrictions. It all looks good in hindsight until you have a situation where the body count is 20 where 3 are victims of crossfire between the shooter, the SRO, and a beat cop. In that situation people will then say that the regular cops those should have set up perimeter and waited for those trained in hostage rescue/active shooter.

    What can I say….when you have the element of surprise and overwhelming force….it’s easy to be a badass. Being a badass when someone else has the advantage and firepower, one has to be conditioned for that. Cops train for the former scenario vice the latter. The people that are built to thrive in gunfights aren’t the types that join the local police force so there is a talent issue to add with training. And even assuming one of our badasses just happened to be a local SRO at a school with an active shooter… it’s an ambush.. the shooter has surprise and (usually) firepower on their side. The percentages are still not with our brave good guy with a gun to stop the attack.

  102. kevin says:

    @Turgid Jacobian: @Turgid Jacobian: Turgid Jacobian says:
    Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 20:32
    @kevin: Just go away, man. Even the most boring trolls here are usually far more coherent than you’ve been so far.

    So Far? you have left door open for my improvement. Thanks. But I take your advice & leave. Also before I go, you can be charged for being in a Turgid state in public. Jf(x, y),