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Rick Santorum Thinks Satan Has Taken Over America

Rick Santorum is easily the most likable candidate remaining in the contest for the Republican presidential nomination. Of all the Not Romneys to emerge this year, he’s the first that’s the antithesis of Romney: comfortable in his own skin,  intellectually consistent, and in touch with ordinary Americans–everything Romney is not.

He’s a man of deep religious faith who seems to truly live by his beliefs.* Indeed, it is this which makes him so grounded and consistent. In this case, however, extremism is a vice that makes him unfit to govern a free nation. His extreme homophobia and bizarre views on women are enough to make him someone that I can’t support but I recognize that a huge swath of America–and especially the Republican nominating electorate–have similar views. But there’s actually much more beneath the surface.

Right Wing Watch‘s Kyle Mantyla points to an August 2008 speech that Santorum gave at Ave Maria University. The video is there for you to view in context but a few quotes stand out:

[Satan] attacks all of us and he attacks all of our institutions. The place where he was, in my mind, the most successful and first successful was in academia. He understood pride of smart people. He attacked them at their weakest, that they were, in fact, smarter than everybody else and could come up with something new and different. Pursue new truths, deny the existence of truth, play with it because they’re smart. And so academia, a long time ago, fell.

And you say “what could be the impact of academia falling?” Well, I would have the argument that the other structures that I’m going to talk about here had root of their destruction because of academia. Because what academia does is educate the elites in our society, educates the leaders in our society, particularly at the college level. And they were the first to fall.

To be sure, Republican candidates have been attacking academia for years. Faculty at elite colleges, for a variety of reasons, tend to lean left. Further, it has long been common for preachers at Evangelical churches to counsel students about to go off to college to resist attempts by liberal professors to indoctrinate them and undermine their faith. The general attitude is what gives the Left the “Republicans are anti-science” talking point.

Still, I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a serious national politician claim that this is all a plot by . . . could it be . . . Satan.

The speech gets creepier from there.

And so what we saw this domino effect, once the colleges fell and those who were being education in our institutions, the next was the church. Now you’d say, ‘wait, the Catholic Church’? No. We all know that this country was founded on a Judeo-Christian ethic but the Judeo-Christian ethic was a Protestant Judeo-Christian ethic, sure the Catholics had some influence, but this was a Protestant country and the Protestant ethic, mainstream, mainline Protestantism, and of course we look at the shape of mainline Protestantism in this country and it is in shambles, it is gone from the world of Christianity as I see it. So they attacked mainline Protestantism, they attacked the Church, and what better way to go after smart people who also believe they’re pious to use both vanity and pride to also go after the Church.

That’s right: Somewhere along the way, Satan successfully destroyed mainline Protestant churches such that they’re not really Christian. (Thankfully, he spared the Catholic Church so that they could do God’s work and rape little boys.) As Ed Kilgore observes, this notion may be problematic with the Republican nominating electorate.

Now there is no uniform definition of “mainline Protestantism,” but most people would understand it as including the religious denominations affiliated with the World Council of Churches (which claim 560 million members), or in the U.S., with the National Council of Churches (about 45 million members). That’s a lot of church-going Christians. And while it’s not unusual to hear the occasional Protestant fundamentalist or Catholic traditionalist mock us mainliners as morally and theologically lax, excessively “secular,” too “liberal,” too friendly to feminists and sodomites and so on and so forth, you don’t hear many politicians publicly talk that way, much less suggest all these Christians are really in the grasp of Satan.

Granting that I’m a recovering academic and nonbeliever  it’s just bizarre that an obviously bright fellow–who, incidentally, has a BA  and JD from Penn State and an MBA from Pitt, so don’t be sure that he’s free from Satan’s influence, either–believes this nonsense. It’s Michele Bachmann level crazy. Yet he’s arguably the Republican frontrunner right now.

We’ll see soon enough whether Santorum’s retrograde views are a bug or a feature with the nominating electorate. At this point in the game, it’s quite possible that the extent of his zealotry is simply not well known. Santorum was never considered a serious contender for the nomination and his rise seems to be mostly a function of people wanting someone other than Romney to vote for, everyone else (even Herman “Shucky Ducky” Cain!) getting their turn, and Santorum seeming to be a humble, blue collar guy.

Historically, the religious extremists–Pat Robertson, Gary Bauer, Pat Buchanan, and others–have had brief surges and then fallen by the wayside to more mainstream candidates for the nomination. But the only alternative who remains standing is, ironically enough, a Mormon. And one Republicans decidedly don’t want to nominate.

Via Mark Kleiman

_______________
*As Alex Knapp and others regularly point out, most people in this category selectively omit cornerstone Christian teachings from their repertoire.  But I attribute this to the emphasis of church leaders rather than hypocrisy on the part of the flock. 

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About James Joyner
James Joyner is the publisher of Outside the Beltway, an associate professor of security studies at the Marine Corps Command and Staff College, and a nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council. He's a former Army officer and Desert Storm vet. He has a PhD in political science from The University of Alabama. Views expressed here are his own. Follow James on Twitter.

Comments

  1. DRS says:

    How long before the Republican establishment really hits the panic button and decides that Romney has to be sacrificed since he’s just not closing the deal and the hideous alternative is looming ever larger? The problem is no longer the anti-Romneys but rather Romney (Weakest. Front. Runner. Ever.) himself. We’re not even talking 1964 anymore. Most of the Republican Party right now would fall sobbing to their knees in gratitude at the prospect of a Barry Goldwater coming forward to save them from this fate.

    More popcorn!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

  2. Fiona says:

    I know that there are plenty of folks out there who believe in the actual existence of Satan as something more than a metaphor for evil, but Satan talk from a serious contender for the Republican nomination makes me twitchy and very, very nervous, especially when it’s combined with an Islamophobia that posits radical Islam terrorists under every rock.

    That Santorum is still standing is a testament to how deeply unpopular Romney is with a large chunk of the Republican electorate. But I’m not sure how Romney goes about pointing out the level to which Santorum is a religious extremist without getting caught up in the backlash.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1

  3. James says:

    A Republican who espouses judgmental religious zealotry? Surprise surprise.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 2

  4. This isn’t too surprising. By “mainline” he means “non-evangelical” and picks his side in the Kevin Phillips narrative. It’s all there, as outlined in American Theocracy, etc.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

  5. jpe says:

    Nothing I haven’t heard from my wacky evangelical extended family.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  6. rodney dill says:

    Well he wouldn’t be much of a Christian if he didn’t believe in God and Satan, and didn’t believe that they were both active in the world today.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 5

  7. superdestroyer says:

    Who cares? Santorum had zero chance of being the next president.

    The only question for the 2012 election is whether the Democrats will win enough seats in the House to put Nancy Pelosi back into the Speakers position.

    As the Republicans collapse, the change that there will be a SS tax cut in 2013 or that the temporary tax cuts will go down.

    By FY2014, taxes will have increase by a couple o 100 billion dollars but the federal budget will probably increase by more than that amount as the Democrats expand entitlements. At least the value of tax exempt investment will go up given the coming tax increase.

    The Obama Administraion and David AXelrod have the perfect storm: They can increase spending, raise taxes, and run huge deficits while blaming everything on the Republicans.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 20

  8. @rodney dill:

    I was raised in a traditional Lutheran church. It came across that temptation in our age was about our own weakness. In fact the first time I heard a congregation member mention a personalized devil, I was shocked. Enough so that I remember the incident all these years later.

    I’m sure Rick would find too much Ethics in that old church.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  9. @superdestroyer:

    Wrote yourself a scary movie there, did you?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  10. rodney dill says:

    @john personna:

    It came across that temptation in our age was about our own weakness.

    I was raised traditional Lutheran as well (ALC at the time) and I was never taught that temptation was about our own weakness. ( …at least not only about our personal weakness, succumbing to temptation would be different.)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  11. Jim Henley says:

    The whores and politicians will look up at Santorum and cry, “Save us!” and he’ll say, “No.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  12. superdestroyer says:

    @john personna:

    The government cannot run trillion dollar deficits forever and the Democrats have shown zero appetite for cutting spending. Thus, taxes will eventually have to be increased by huge amounts and as the Democratic Party grows, entitlement spending will expand.

    Instead of endless posts about Santorum, Gingrich, Palin, and the irrelevant Republicans, why not have more posts on spending, regulations, taxes, and economics. The first question everyone should have to answer is what is the maximum percentage of the GDP what everyone believes the U.S. can tolerate?

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 20

  13. Woody says:

    Many hard-line Christian media outlets place a great deal of stress on persecution. Despite the rather obvious fact that every major political figure in both parties stress their commitment to their faith (so do many media, business, and athletic elite), these outlets spend a great deal of their time screaming “Persecution!!”
    Fox News also spends a great deal of time – every day – claiming Christians are under constant persecution. They do this by finding some small local issue and amplify to 11 (i.e. the Otter Defense). The number of outlets – and the stridency – has steadily increased for literally decades. Argumentum ad baculum, but it’s spread on very fertile ground.
    Rick Santorum would have been fringe city even twelve years ago. However, as the outlets have found increased outrage = increased attention/advertising dollars, fringe is the new normal.
    To the 27% who use these outlets as their primary source for news, Rick Santorum represents the middle-of-the-road.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

  14. @superdestroyer:

    The government cannot run trillion dollar deficits forever and the Democrats have shown zero appetite for cutting spending.

    This is mind-rot. As I understand it, it works like this: “Since the Grand Bargain was a lie, there was no offer, and there can never be any offer. How do I know? Because any offer is false.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  15. Brummagem Joe says:

    and in touch with ordinary Americans–

    The subsequent commentary didn’t quite jibe with this remark unless you think ordinary Americans believe most of our university faculties are composed of Satanists. Of course Santorum’s craziness hasn’t received much scrutiny (it’s not a complete accident he lost his senate seat by a 18% margin) and probably won’t unless Romney goes into full trash mode. The problem for Romney is if he does it could backfire because most of Santorum’s negatives in a general are actually positives with the Republican primary electorates. For example while not believing most university professors are satanists many Republicans probably believe they are ivory tower elitists feeding at the public trough and attempting to contaminate the bodily essences of American youth.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  16. John Peabody says:

    I agree with the first comment: “More popcorn!”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  17. @rodney dill:

    I don’t remember which Lutheran church ours was, before the mergers and such. It was one with “America” in the title ;-). I do remember a rumor that pastor had taught at seminary but was pushed out for being “too conservative.” That seems odd, reading now.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  18. superdestroyer says:

    @john personna:

    The bargain was to raise taxes now with a promise of spending cuts later. Since those cuts would have to be passed by a Democratic controlled House and Senate, they were never going to happen. Outside of Defense, Democrats have not support any cuts to government spending since before World War II.

    To worry about what irrelevant Republicans are saying about religion, abortion, and contraception is just a way for too many policy wonks to distract themselves from what is relevant in politics and governance today.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 10

  19. @superdestroyer:

    As I say, brain rot. All laws are passed in the present, and take action in the future. Somehow the right has seized on a self-sealing argument that has nothing to do with specific proposals or specific spending. Your logic, such as it is, is that any law, because it takes place in the future, is false.

    This means you never have to consider a cut yourself, or actually vote for it.

    Oh, and as a happy “accident” the only real cuts happen in periods of Republican majority. So, off the hook again.

    It is complete “check your brain at the door” abandonment of responsibility.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  20. (It is really bizarre the corner Republicans have put themselves in with that argument. They cannot accept cuts, even when they pass with a Congressional majority, simply because there are Democrats in congress. WTF, right?)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  21. Tsar Nicholas II says:

    I have to disagree with the notion that Santorum is at the Bachmann level of crazy. Frankly I think that’s an insult to Santorum.

    If you objectively review Santorum’s career you’ll find that he’s basically a populist-Republican on domestic economic issues, a standard hawk on foreign policies and, at least until very recently, just slightly further to the right on social issues than the Republican paradigm. His lifetime voting record really is no different than Bob Dole’s or Orrin Hatch’s. For a while Mike DeWine had the same conservative rating as Santorum and DeWine is considered in many GOP circles to be a liberal. You also have to keep in mind that Santorum twice won statewide contests in Pennsylvania; hardly a bastion for extreme conservatism.

    This is not the track record of a crazy person. Michele Bachmann, on the other hand, is and always has been bug-eyed, dyed-in-the-wool crazy. A complete loon. On a scale of 1-10 Bachmann hits 11.

    Granted, the Santorum of today has gone berserk on social issues in general and with particular regards to religious issues. I believe, however, there is an explanation and to a certain extent there are extenuating circumstances. The man lost a child and then doubled down and wound up with a severely disabled child who won’t make it to Kindergarten. What I suspect happened here is those two events triggered a tsunami of Catholic guilt and Santorum has to some degree been swept away. Hence the metamorphosis from steel state Senator to pious preacher in chief.

    Ultimately, of course, this is a moot point. Santorum won’t be the nominee and if by some cosmic infarction he did become the nominee then Obama would defeat him by a colossal margin.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

  22. Scott O. says:

    @superdestroyer: I guess it was before your time but I was around the last time Republicans were in charge at the beginning of this century. They spent like sailors under the influence of Satan.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

  23. Brummagem Joe says:

    @Tsar Nicholas II:

    I have to disagree with the notion that Santorum is at the Bachmann level of crazy. Frankly I think that’s an insult to Santorum.

    versus

    Granted, the Santorum of today has gone berserk on social issues in general and with particular regards to religious issues

    .

    The martyr of Ekaterinburg demonstrates his usual capacity for oxymoronic pronouncements.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  24. Herb says:

    @superdestroyer: “The government cannot run trillion dollar deficits forever and the Democrats have shown zero appetite for cutting spending.”

    Don’t buy into the hype, Superdestroyer. The government loves to spend money, and that’s true whether a Democrat or one of your beloved Republicans are in charge. Who spent a lot of energy in his first term trying to give government money to churches? Not the Democrat. And that’s but one small example that leaves out the big ones (tax cuts during two wars? really??).

    If your views on the budget cause you to break towards Republicans, just consider that they’re no better on the issue than Democrats, and in many cases, worse. (Who was telling us just last year that a debt default would be just peachy?)

    The only reason to vote Republican these days is because you either think you lack enough state-sanctioned God in your life or you want to see people you don’t like suffer.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  25. James Joyner says:

    @Brummagem Joe: I’m not saying his views are mainstream; I’m rather sure they’re not. But he’s a populist who seems to genuinely connect with the concerns of the working class and in a way that doesn’t seem contrived.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

  26. Septimius says:

    Whew. I’m glad this site is back to normal. I had to go an entire day yesterday without reading that Santorum is crazy.

    Also, I appreciate how you worked in the comment about the Catholic Church raping little boys. Very helpful to the discussion. Bravo.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 8

  27. Brummagem Joe says:

    @James Joyner:

    But he’s a populist who seems to genuinely connect with the concerns of the working class and in a way that doesn’t seem contrived.

    I guess that’s why he lost his senate seat in PA by 18%….he might be able to connect with the concerns of the deeply religious working class but there’s no evidence that he connects with all of them. A couple of days ago he was making a speech to a Detroit business audience in praise of the virtues of income inequality and saying the auto industry should not have been bailed out.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  28. Bleev K says:

    Rick Santorum is easily the most likable candidate

    Likable? Really? Every time he opens his mouth and pukes his repugnant point of views, I hate him a little more. How can somebody “like” a freak like that is beyond me.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  29. Gold Star for Robot Boy says:

    @Septimius: If you’ve got a problem with the mention of pedophiles in the Catholic Church, take it up with the Catholic Church.

    Sincerely,
    A former altar boy whose parish was rocked when a priest hung himself in the rectory before the cops could get him

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  30. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Rick Santorum Thinks Satan Has Taken Over America

    Please Satan, just hurry up and finish the job, will ya?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  31. Ron Beasley says:

    I doubt that Santorum’s views are that much different than Scalia, Alito, Roberts or Thomas – very Conservative Catholics. That should give us all some pause.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  32. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Herb:

    The only reason to vote Republican these days is because you either think you lack enough state-sanctioned God in your life or you want to see people you don’t like suffer.

    Herb, you forgot one: The third reason is if one just does not think.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  33. superdestroyer says:

    @john personna:

    the only brain rot is the idea that what Congress says today has any relevance on Congress will do in the future.

    Congress should currently be looking at the FY13 budget. The current Congress should only be evaluated on whether is passes a budget well before October 1 and how large will the deficit be.

    Saying that the government can spend now and “grow” its wayout of the deficit is beyond idiotic and has a track record of major failure. Clinton and the Republican Congress managed to balance the budget in FY1999 and FY2000. so Congress can do things in the perfect.

    Saying that if the Republicans pass a tax increase that takes effect now on the promise that the Democrats will pass budget cuts in the future is as stupid a thing to do as Charlie Brown having Lucy hold the football.

    David Axelrod is a genius is that he has convinced everyone that they can have their cake and eat it too. The Democrats are just promising massive taxes and huge budget growth in the uture.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4

  34. superdestroyer says:

    @Scott O.:

    And those Republicans were run out of office with lousy approval ratings and now the Republicans are irrelevant.

    The only question is how much will the Democrats raise taxes given the change and how much will spending increase.

    During the dot.com boom of the 1990′s, the only thing that the Democrats managed to cut was defense spending. Domestic spending stayed level and no programs were cut.

    the only thing wonk wannabes should be discussing is the future and that means there should be no discussions of the Republican Party or its candidates.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  35. anjin-san says:

    Rick Santorum Thinks Satan Has Taken Over America

    Well, duh. Look at who the President is. Satan clearly has a pro-Kenyan, anti-colonial bias.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

  36. Franklin says:

    @john personna: I was raised in what I believe to be a typical Lutheran church, and I think I had a different experience than you. My early years were most certainly filled with some of that “Satan is always trying to tempt you” lesson. It was later on that I think people in our church stopped using that. Or maybe it was by design: Tell the little kids that Satan is trying to get you, but for more mature children use some better reasoning. Or maybe it was just me: taking it too literally as a child.

    Amusing (to me) Side Note: I almost pressed ‘Post Comment’ with the word ‘lesson’ spelled as ‘lesion’. I think that would have been funny trying to decipher.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  37. superdestroyer says:

    @Herb:

    Herb,

    I would be concerned about the big spending Republicans if I thought they would ever have influence on policy or governance again. However, since the Republicans are irrelevant now and will remain irrelevant in the future, the only party to discuss is the Democrats.

    President Obama has signal that he has no reason to cut spending other than defense spending. Thus, the future promises much higher taxes in the future, much higher levels of government spending, a higher percentage of spending on entitlements, and a gradual decline of the private sector.

    Instead of worrying about irrelevant politicians like Santorum who will probably never hold any office in the future. Why not discuss how the second term of the Obama Administration will act if Pelosi returns as speaker and the number of Democrats in the SEnate grows.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  38. superdestroyer says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Do you really think that the Democrats are demonstrating keen analytical abilities when they propose open borders, unlimited legal immigration along with expanding entitlement spending.

    The government will never be able to raise the tax dollars to fund all of the programs that the progressive support but Democrats keep claiming that they are based in reality.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5

  39. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    Saying that the government can spend now and “grow” its wayout of the deficit is beyond idiotic and has a track record of major failure.

    Actually deficit spending is a well recognized remedy amongst Keynesians and Monetarists for boosting economic growth (although monetarists don’t like it because they consider it the source of future inflation) which is a key part of reducing deficit spending. At least one third of the current deficit is the consequence of sub optimum economic performance. It’s cutting spending in the midst of recessions that has a track record of major failure (viz. Hoover/Mellon’s initial response to the great depression; and the current British govt’s austerity program).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  40. @rodney dill:

    Well he wouldn’t be much of a Christian if he didn’t believe in God and Satan, and didn’t believe that they were both active in the world today.

    Yes, but there is a significant difference in the belief that Satan seduces individuals to sin, which they then engage in under their own will and direction, and the belief that all the evil in the world is a result of an organized conspiracy to further Satan’s will in this world.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  41. If we had a journalism corp that actually did it’s job, one thing I would REALLY like to see Santorum asked about is his thoughts on the heresy of Americanism. All his blatherings make sense if he thinks this is actually the root cause of most of the problems in this country. If that is the case, it provides at lot os insight into what he’d be like as a President.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  42. superdestroyer says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    Keynesian economist also do not believe in raising taxes during a recession but since the Democrats keep wanting to raise taxes during a recession, they obviously are not real Keynesians. The real point of the Democrats is to increase baseline spending during a recession so that there will be even more spending during any future recovery.

    In the long run, taxes are going to go up and spending will go up. The discussion should be on the impacts of the spending and what percentage o the GDP can the government consume before the standard of living starts going down.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  43. WR says:

    @Septimius: You know, if the Catholic Church didn’t want people to talk about their priests raping little boys, maybe they should have tried to stop their priests from raping little boys instead of covering up the crimes, and then elevating the man in charge of the coverup to the papacy.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

  44. Jim Henley says:

    @WR: Well sure, that’s one solution.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  45. Jim Henley says:

    Meanwhile, is there anything more that distinguishes Santorum’s attention to “the concerns of the working class” than:

    * All GOP candidates want to cut the taxes of all corporations and rich people
    * Santorum wants to cut the taxes of corporations and rich people who own factories

    This is a real, not rhetorical, question. All I’ve seen discussed of Santorum’s Plan for American Manufacturing is tax cuts for manufacturers. Is that it? Or is there other stuff?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  46. @Jim Henley:

    At least based on his Senate records, limitations on foreign trade would likely be part of it too.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  47. john personna says:

    @superdestroyer:

    It is actually the mark of a mature and rational mind that you can plan for the future, and follow through. The position of the populist right is that we can never plan for the future, because we can never follow through.

    They don’t get the self-defeating aspect to that, for some strange reason.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  48. superdestroyer says:

    @john personna:

    The actual response is that progressives want the Republicans to take all of the risks in support higher taxes now. The budget cuts should lead the tax increases and not follow the tax increase. Reagan had a deal to cut spending and it never happened. Bush I had a deal to cut spending and it never happened. Bush II should have cut spending and never did. Clinton only cut defense spending.

    Since Congress had not cut domestic since the FDR administration, there is no reason to believe it will happen this time. Falling for the same scam more than once is the mark of an idiot. Why should the Republicans do along with the same scam one more time.

    In a few years the Democrats will have such a large majority that they will not have to worry about the Republicans. My guess is by that time all o the talk of budget cuts will be forgotten and all of the talk will be about tax increases on the core groups of the Republican Party.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  49. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    Keynesian economist also do not believe in raising taxes during a recession but since the Democrats keep wanting to raise taxes during a recession, they obviously are not real Keynesians.

    I note you don’t actually address the point I was making but introduce a red herring. Democrats haven’t raised taxes and the tax increases they propose on the very wealthy are not slated to rise until next year. Now we’ve disposed of your smokescreen how about addressing the actual point that you were talking total nonsense about deficit spending in a recession.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  50. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    Since Congress had not cut domestic since the FDR administration, there is no reason to believe it will happen this time. Falling for the same scam more than once is the mark of an idiot. Why should the Republicans do along with the same scam one more time.

    You seem completely oblivious of the fact that the largest increases in the public debt as a percentage of GDP have all happened during Republican presidencies up until now where at least 90% of the problem is a legacy from Dubya unless you think the deficit clock reset to zero on Jan 20, 2009. In the last calendar year of Bush’s admin the deficit was $1.3 trillion.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  51. superdestroyer says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    If the Democrats would have maintain control of the House, income taxes would have gone up in January 2011. Democrats wanted to raise taxes but did not want to take the political heat of doing it.

    What real Keynesians say you have to do if raise taxes during the boom times, pay off the debt as fast as possible, Since that never happens, there is no reason to deficit spend during the bad times. All deficit spending does is make the ratchet effect and makes the budget problems worse.

    If people have a taste for $3.5 trillion dollars worth of government, they should have to pay that price today, in the current budget year.

    Of course, i we did that there would be fewer supporting increased government spending and expanding government program.

    No deficits and paying for everything in the current year is the only thing that can be called fiscally conservative.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  52. superdestroyer says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    yes, I know that the Republicans have been lousy and one of the reasons that Bush II left office with a 20% approval rating is the failure of the Republican to manage the budget. That is why the Republicans should make cuts now and limit spending now. They are going to be blame no matter what happens, so why not do the sane thing and stop deficit spending.

    Every dollar of debt makes the Democrats more powerful since it increases the voters appetitie for government programs because they get the programs at a huge discount. The voters should be forced to pay full retail for the government that they want.

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  53. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    If the Democrats would have maintain control of the House, income taxes would have gone up in January 2011.

    This is simply not true (aka. a lie)

    What real Keynesians say you have to do if raise taxes during the boom times, pay off the debt as fast as possible, Since that never happens, there is no reason to deficit spend during the bad times.

    That’s exactly what Keynesians say then you come out with another lie. Clinton raised taxes and reduced the deficit to zero and then moved into surplus. And because we have a public debt does not obviate the need for deficit spending in a recession.

    No deficits and paying for everything in the current year is the only thing that can be called fiscally conservative.

    It’s also the thing that can be called terminally stupid as Hoover and Mellon found out.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  54. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    The voters should be forced to pay full retail for the government that they want.

    This is a good argument for increasing taxes on the wealthy and closing corporate loopholes since we have a progressive tax system

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  55. superdestroyer says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    First, there is no way to get $1.5 trillion for the wealthy. They just do not have that much wealth. The U.S currently get less than $1 trillion a year from income taxes. The only way to raise the taxes that would be required to fund what progressives want is to raise taxes by large margins on everyone. In reality, it would take more than a doubling of everyone’s income taxes. That is why raising taxes that much is a conservative idea.

    Raising taxes on just the rich would mean that most people would continue to demand even higher taxes and even more programs. If everyone had to pay twice as much, then politics would become about cutting programs and lowering taxes until equilibrium is reach.

    Deficit spending and progressive taxes make the Democrats stronger but make the economy and the U.S. weaker and thus it should be limit.

    When more than 50% o workers stop paying taxes, the U.S. will definitely be on the road to becoming a third world country because not enough voters will care about anything except getting goodies from the government.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  56. grumpy realist says:

    @superdestroyer: It seems to me that we’re already down the slide to third-world status. Brazil with nukes.

    If we want to return to first world status, we’re going to have to stop worrying about what the god-botherers want, ignore the anti-science Right, and make sure that EVERYBODY is contributing to the solution. Yes, extend Federal taxation to everyone, but at the same time make taxation the same level for income from labour and income from capital. Get rid of the loopholes. And don’t be so scared about estate taxes. If you’re going to tax stuff on a stepped-up basis as of the date of death, then you can bloody well have estate taxes. And no, it’s not “getting taxed twice.” With the stepped-up basis, most increase in capital isn’t even getting taxed ONCE.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  57. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    First, there is no way to get $1.5 trillion for the wealthy.

    I never said it was….this is just another of your strawmen. The size of the deficit is another. It’s currently running at $1.1 trillion not 1.5 trillion. Your numbers like your constantly shifting arguments and misprepresentations are largely bs. Some sums for you. For most of the time since the war the deficit has been around 2.5% of GDP so call it 400 million which is quite sustainable in a 15 trillion economy. So the real size of the problem is actually about 700 billion. About 350 of this will come the economy returning to optimum capacity, allowing all the Bush cuts to expire will bring in another 250 billion so this leaves around 100 in real cuts to corporate as well as social welfare.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  58. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    What real Keynesians say you have to do if raise taxes during the boom times, pay off the debt as fast as possible, Since that never happens, there is no reason to deficit spend during the bad times.

    *****

    That’s exactly what Keynesians say then you come out with another lie. Clinton raised taxes and reduced the deficit to zero and then moved into surplus. And because we have a public debt does not obviate the need for deficit spending in a recession.

    Btw will you be admitting you were talking baloney here? I won’t hold my breath.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  59. superdestroyer says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    If Clinton had passed health care reform in his first year, the temporary budget surplus would never have occurred. In addition, current accounts were running negative before Clinton left office.

    Claiming that the economy will grow and off set the deficit is laughable. The Obama proposed budget deficit for FY13 is $1.3 trillion http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/02/11/3002425/obamas-2012-budget-predicting.html
    and that is after the end of the war in Iraq and drawing down in Afghanistan.

    That is why Congress should make up in FY13. Believing that it will eventually go down depends upon some other Congress doing the heavy liting when all that they will do is run up more debt and start more programs.

    If the Obama Administration wants a $3.5 trillion dollar budget, then taxes should be $3.5 trillion to fund it. If voters want to fund $3.5 trillion in spending,then they would have to give up something else such as virtually all entertainment spending, charitable contribution, and virtually all discretionary spending. maybe when taxes, insurance, and their mortage totals 90% o their income, the people will get serious about cutting taxes.

    Also, Clinton benefitted from a massive speculative bubble that was totoally unsustainable to balance the budget. since progressive believing in things being sustainable, the onlysustainable thing to do is raise taxes to cover all expenditures and pass no cost to the next generation.

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  60. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    If Clinton had passed health care reform in his first year, the temporary budget surplus would never have occurred. In addition, current accounts were running negative before Clinton left office.

    Another red herring. He didn’t pass healthare and in any case you have no way of knowing that since the healthcare battle took place six years before he left office. And he left office leaving a surplus, it’s a matter of public record, so don’t lie again.

    Claiming that the economy will grow and off set the deficit is laughable.

    Lying again? I’ve just explained at some length that a combo of economic growth, tax increases and spending cuts are required to get the deficit down to a sustainable level.

    Also, Clinton benefitted from a massive speculative bubble that was totoally unsustainable to balance the budget.

    Speculative bubbles aren’t a major source of tax revenue. The spec bubble was in dot coms and largely a phenomenon confined to Wall Street. What made the difference was the 22 million jobs that got created on his watch.

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  61. WR says:

    @superdestroyer: “When more than 50% o workers stop paying taxes, the U.S. will definitely be on the road to becoming a third world country because not enough voters will care about anything except getting goodies from the government. ”

    A third world country where the rich are overtaxed to pay for the masses? Um, I hate to question your obvious knowledge of economics, but what third world country matches that description? Generally they’ve got the vast bulk of their wealth in the hands of the very few, well connected super rich, while the masses fight for pennies.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  62. Brummagem Joe says:

    @WR:

    A third world country where the rich are overtaxed to pay for the masses? Um, I hate to question your obvious knowledge of economics, but what third world country matches that description?

    He’s thinking of Sweden and Germany…economic basket cases both of them.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  63. An Interested Party says:

    Also, I appreciate how you worked in the comment about the Catholic Church raping little boys.

    The truth hurts, huh?

    He’s thinking of Sweden and Germany…economic basket cases both of them.

    This raises an interesting point…anyone who rails against third world countries would want to live in a country where the rich few don’t seemingly run a quasi-oligarchy where most of the wealth flows towards them, right? Well, anyone who has any sense, that is…sorry, superdestroyer…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  64. Murrell says:

    The mainline Protestant denominations have by and large abandoned basic Christian doctrines and are even denying the important teachings of the Bible such as creation, virgin birth, trinity, and the bodily resurrection of Jesus. The Bible warns about false prophets and those who lead their flocks (congregations and others) astray. Much of this is coming out of colleges and seminaries. Today’s church has embraced the social “gospel”, prosperity “gospel”, feminine theology, moral relevance and other false teachings. Ministers and other church leaders have become afraid they are going to offend someone so have swallowed completely the political correct behavior of many politicians. Churches have become little more than social clubs where no truths are taught and anything is accomadated. The Bible warns that these are signs of the last days. If you are not in a Bible believing and teaching church now, I urge you to find and get in one before it is too late.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 9

  65. @Murrell:

    moral relevance and other false teachings

    I’m assuming that was supposed to be “moral relativity”, although it’s a delightfully Freudian insight into the fundamentalist mindset as is.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  66. mantis says:

    Don’t vote for psychotic cultists.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  67. @WR:

    SD also distorted the numbers when he claimed 50% “of workers” … there being both unemployed, retirees and etc. in the real 47% “of Americans” who don’t pay income tax.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  68. superdestroyer says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    the economy was entering a recession before Clinton left office. People felt rich due to the growth of their stock profolios and the dot.com and accompanying tech bubble created a huge amount of jobs that were not sustainable in the long term. If Al Gore would have won, he would have run a deficit in every year he was in office. HOwever, it would have been smaller because the Republicans would have not approved any new spending programs.

    The Clinton Administration was as close as the U.S. has ever gotten to having a libertarian president and it is the last thing that the Democrats want to go back to. Remember the Democrats opposing welfare reform and trade liberalization.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  69. superdestroyer says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    Most people in Germany pay very high taxes. The average BMW workers takes home only about 1/3 o their gross pay.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  70. superdestroyer says:

    @WR: @john personna:

    The number of people not paying taxes is bound to increase. If payroll taxes and business taxes go up, more small business will begin to cheat on their taxes like they do in places like Greece.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

  71. superdestroyer says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    The unemployment rate in Sweden if around 7.5%. http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa6_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:se&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&dl=en&hl=en&q=unemployment+rate+sweden

    The unemployment rate for whites in the U.S. is 7.4%. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm and that is with none of those great Nordic social welfare programs.

    There is no real economic miracle in Sweden that cannot be explain by demographics.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

  72. An Interested Party says:

    The Bible warns that these are signs of the last days. If you are not in a Bible believing and teaching church now, I urge you to find and get in one before it is too late.

    Well, it is 2012…

    There is no real economic miracle in Sweden that cannot be explain by demographics.

    In other words, the dirty brown and black people are dragging America down…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

  73. willcommentforfood says:

    @DRS:

    Quite true, pass the popcorn.

    However, today’s Republican base thinks of Goldwater, who was ok with gay rights, as an evil liberal.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  74. splashy says:

    @superdestroyer:

    You say nothing about raising taxes on the very wealthy, and only talk about hurting the middle class and poor. Are you in the 1%?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  75. splashy says:

    @superdestroyer: That was not a “bargain” it was stealing from the middle class and poor to give to the wealthy, who never did create any jobs that mattered.

    It’s all part of the long con the Republicans have been running now for over 30 years. Read about it here, with quotes from the planners:
    http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/26-0

    If you are not in the 1% and you vote for Republicans, you have been scammed.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  76. superdestroyer says:

    @splashy:

    I guess you missed all of the posts where I said that they wealthy do not have $1.3 trillion dollars of income each year. I guess you missed the mention that total income tax collections in the U.S. is around $900 billion. Raising the income tax on the top 1% by a few percent is not going to produce $1.3 trillion.

    I the voters want $3.5+ in government, then the voters should have to pay $3.5 trillion in taxes and than would mean giving up around $1.3 trillion in other spending. Image what would happen to discretionary spending such as restaurant meals, vacations, or contributions to charity is everyone had their income taxes doubled.

    The voters needs to decide if they are willing to pay the cost of having $3.5 trillion in government spending and saying that all that needs to be done is raise taxes on the top 1% is idiotic.

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  77. Ebenezer Arvigenius says:

    Most people in Germany pay very high taxes. The average BMW workers takes home only about 1/3 o their gross pay.

    Complete nonsense. No matter how you slice it you won’t go below ~50%. And that already includes premiums for full-coverage healthcare.

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  78. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    Most people in Germany pay very high taxes. The average BMW workers takes home only about 1/3 o their gross pay.

    It’s actually about 45%….. not only deficient in economic knowledge but in irony too.

    the economy was entering a recession before Clinton left office. People felt rich due to the growth of their stock profolios and the dot.com and accompanying tech bubble created a huge amount of jobs that were not sustainable in the long term.

    Another blatant lie. The vast majority of the 22 million jobs created during Clinton’s presidency survived the dot com bust which was one of the shortest and shallowest in history because it was largely a Wall Street phenomenon. All the stuff about Gore is just the usual unsupporteed assertions we’ve become used to.

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  79. Brummagem Joe says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    It’s actually about 45%

    I see I expressed that badly….45% is approximately the tax take in Germany.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  80. WR says:

    @superdestroyer: Since that unemployment number in Sweden also includes non-whites, I have no idea what ludicrous, racist point you’re trying to make. But you should go to Sweden one of these days, if the government will let you have a passport (and if Sweden will let you in). You might be surprised how many faces there aren’t white.

    On second thought, don’t go there. I doubt your terrified heart could take the shock..

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  81. WR says:

    @splashy: I doubt SD is in the 1% of in his trailer park.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  82. superdestroyer says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    Does that include all of the mandatory insurances such as:
    Health insurance: 7.75 % out of your salary (capped at 44,550 € pa)
    Old age care: 0.975 % out of your salary (capped at 44,550 € pa)
    Unemployment benefits: 1.5 % out of your salary (capped at 66,000 € pa)
    Pension: 9.95 % out of your salary (capped at 66,000 € pa)

    http://www.toytowngermany.com/wiki/German_taxes

    Does it also include the value added tax, real property tax, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany

    The average middle class American pays over 40% in total taxes. Are you really doing to argue that German only pay 5% more?

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  83. Jim Henley says:

    @WR: Me, I’m thinking, you mean they get awesome social-welfare at a net cost of one tenth of a percentage-point in extra unemployment? Sign me up!

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  84. Ebenezer Arvigenius says:

    Does that include all of the mandatory insurances such as:
    Health insurance: 7.75 % out of your salary (capped at 44,550 € pa)
    Old age care: 0.975 % out of your salary (capped at 44,550 € pa)
    Unemployment benefits: 1.5 % out of your salary (capped at 66,000 € pa)
    Pension: 9.95 % out of your salary (capped at 66,000 € pa)

    Yes, yes, yes and yes.

    Obviously any kind of consumption tax (property, VAT) is not included. But since you compared take-home on gross income I don’t quite see your point with that.

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  85. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    The average middle class American pays over 40% in total taxes.

    Not in federal income taxes he doesn’t.

    The amount of individual income tax paid steeply declined by $166 billion, twice the decline from 2007 to 2008. Nationally, average effective income tax rates were at their lowest levels since the IRS began tracking them in 1986. The average tax rate for returns with a positive liability went from 12.24 percent in 2008 to 11.06 percent in 2009.

    To this must added payroll taxes, but this isn’t going to push individual total federal taxes to 40% or anything like it. Would you like to provide a link to support your claim that the average middle class American is paying 40% of his income in federal income taxes.

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  86. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    Example of a tax computationIncome tax for year 2011:

    Single taxpayer, no children, under 65 and not blind, taking standard deduction;

    $40,000 gross income – $5,800 standard deduction – $3,700 personal exemption = $30,500 taxable income
    $8,500 × 10% = $850.00 (taxation of the first income bracket)
    $30,500 – $8,500 = $22,000.00 (amount in the second income bracket)
    $22,000.00 × 15% = $3,300.00 (taxation of the amount in the second income bracket)
    Total income tax is $850.00 + $3,300.00 = $4,150.00 (10.375% effective tax)
    Note that in addition to income tax, a wage earner would also have to pay Federal Insurance Contributions Act tax (FICA) (and an equal amount of FICA tax must be paid by the employer):

    Now stop wasting our time with your mickey mouse bs.

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  87. Brummagem Joe says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    Roll in FICA and it goes to just over 16%of income.

    $40,000 (adjusted gross income)
    $40,000 × 4.2%[7] = $1,680 (Social Security portion)
    $40,000 × 1.45% = $580 (Medicare portion)
    Total FICA tax = $2,260 (5.65% of income)
    Total Federal tax of individual = $6,410.00 (16.025% of income)

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  88. grumpy realist says:

    Ha. I’m paying just around 25% on state and federal taxes combined….not too bad in my opinion. And yes, I’d rather pay more and get our finances in order and a better safety net.

    Would all those of you who think that Taxes Are Teh Ebil just shut the eff up and move to Somalia already?

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  89. superdestroyer says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    The average is actually 30% since Tax Freedom day occurs in April http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day

    What is amazing is the highest percentage of the GDP that is listed is less than 32%. That is probably the limit of taxation in the U.S. and that is what government at all levels should budget toward. 32% of the GDP.

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  90. superdestroyer says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    You forgot the 10% payroll taxes (SS and Medicare). You also forgot the state income tax.

    Then you add in the property tax, the sales taxes, the excite taxes, the fuel taxes, etc.

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  91. superdestroyer says:

    @grumpy realist:

    But are you willing to pay the 45% that Joe is saying the German pays plus the 19% VAT tax that they pay.

    What are you willing to give up to have the government consume such a high level of the GDP?

    People like Joe never mention what they are willing to give up because they do not want to give up anything. They just want the 1% to give up things.

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  92. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    You forgot the 10% payroll taxes (SS and Medicare). You also forgot the state income tax.

    Er….no…FICA is payroll taxes

    Roll in FICA and it goes to just over 16%of income.

    $40,000 (adjusted gross income)
    $40,000 × 4.2%[7] = $1,680 (Social Security portion)
    $40,000 × 1.45% = $580 (Medicare portion)
    Total FICA tax = $2,260 (5.65% of income)
    Total Federal tax of individual = $6,410.00 (16.025% of income)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  93. Jim Henley says:

    My salary puts me in the Top 10% and I live in a high-tax Blue state. Reckoning all federal and local taxes, including FICA and state property and sales taxes, my tax total burden is handily less than 40%. This isn’t through any trickery either: I pay whateverTurboTax tells me to pay. And I am among the most fortunate people, in terms of income, in the country. Our tax code is less progressive than many people imagine, but it’s at least mildly progressive. So there’s no way the vast majority of earners have a total tax burden of 40%.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  94. superdestroyer says:

    @Jim Henley:

    The average is actually around 30% since tax freedom day occurs in April. However, tax freedom day does not include the deferred taxes on the budget deficit. To make up the differences between government spending at all levels and government taxes at all levels, taxes would have to go up, it total, around 18% . Of course, that would mean that income taxes at the federal level would have to double.

    Anyone who want to double income taxes should first say what they are willing to give up in order to fund the government.

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  95. Jim Henley says:

    @superdestroyer: One of the actual useful outcomes of this discussion has been to make me realize that Tax Freedom Day isn’t just misleading, it is conceptually complete bullshit. It not only doesn’t signify what its supporters claim, it cannot signify anything given its own premises.

    I also reject the validity of your “deferred taxes on the budget deficit” notion in the context of tax rates, but that’s a separate issue.

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  96. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    The average is actually 30% since Tax Freedom day occurs in April

    Once again our resident Genius’ own numbers prove him wrong. The actual for all classes is 27.7 (not 30%) and obviously it would be lower on middle earners. Miles away from the figure of 40% he claimed for middle class tax payers

    The average middle class American pays over 40% in total taxes.

    And the Tax Foundation is a rightwing think tank a bit like Heritage with a vested interest in slanting the numbers.

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  97. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    Of course, that would mean that income taxes at the federal level would have to double.

    Anyone who want to double income taxes should first say what they are willing to give up in order to fund the government.

    As well as consistently misrepresenting the facts you’re also a fantasist.

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  98. superdestroyer says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    The federal government is running a budget deficit over around $1.3 trillion. The American voters has shown no interest in cutting the federal government. Thus, in the long run, the only way to manage the federal budget is to raise federal taxes to match the desired level of spending. That would mean a more than doubling of current income tax levels.

    Progressives have decided that they way to do that is to raise taxes on others (the rich) and to cut some spending on others (defense, law enforcement). Thus, progressives are showing to desire to pay anymore taxes themselves or to take any cuts themselves.

    O course, what you realize is that is income taxes were more than doubled, then the desire for ever expanding entitlements, ever expanding pork barrel spending, and ever expanding public sector employment would end.

    IN the long run, since the desire to actually pay for the government that people want to pay for is not there, the U.S. will continue with the deficit spending, pork barrel spending, and expanding entitlements until something else gives such as happening in several countries in Europe now.

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  99. LY says:

    Well, at least Rick S is right about one thing and that is the Devil is on the rise and when you look at all the money being thrown around you will know right away who side the devil is on…that would be him and his 5 billion dollar man who brought him. Instead of using some of that money to help people who are in need that you have cheated, instead, it is used for negative ads and attacking people and their beliefs plus theircharacters so you are right Rick the devil is right behind you.

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  100. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    The federal government is running a budget deficit over around $1.3 trillion. Thus, in the long run, the only way to manage the federal budget is to raise federal taxes to match the desired level of spending. That would mean a more than doubling of current income tax levels.

    As I said you’re delusional fantasist who consistently misrepresents facts. If you will persist in telling porkies try to avoid ones that are easy to check.

    CBO:
    In its baseline, CBO projects that the 2012 federal budget deficit will be about $1.1 trillion,

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  101. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    Bloomberg:

    The U.S. Congressional Budget Office predicted the budget deficit for fiscal year 2011 will be $1.066 trillion

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  102. WR says:

    @superdestroyer: “Progressives have decided that they way to do that is to raise taxes on others (the rich) and to cut some spending on others (defense, law enforcement). Thus, progressives are showing to desire to pay anymore taxes themselves or to take any cuts themselves. ”

    So according to SuperD, there are no rich progressives and no progressives in defense or law enforcement. He seems to think we all work for public radio.

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  103. Brummagem Joe says:

    @WR:

    He seems to think we all work for public radio.

    Or PP abortion factories, gay massage parlors, inner city drug houses, the Peace Corps, Ivy League faculties, the EPA, the DHSS, the MLK foundation, immigrant smuggling rings, et al.

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  104. superdestroyer says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    According to http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-10/obama-budget-to-project-901-billion-deficit-in-fiscal-2013

    The budget to be submitted to Congress will also show a deficit of $1.33 trillion this year

    And bloomberg also says The government posted a deficit of $1.3 trillion last year

    Please provide the specific with your post or is bloomberg.com now a right-wing website that cannot be trusted.

    Also, in the bloomberg story about the FY2013 budget submitted by the Obama Administraiton, http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-13/obama-sends-3-8-trillion-budget-to-congress-with-stimulus-tax-increases.

    he forecast shows a fiscal 2012 deficit of $1.33 trillion, or 8.5 percent of the economy, marking the fourth straight year the shortfall will exceed the trillion-dollar mark. That’s up from the administration’s estimate in September of $956 billion.

    At least the Obama budget is offering only a trillion dollar deficit in 2014

    Next year, the deficit is projected at $901 billion, or 5.5 percent of the economy, and up from the $648 billion that Obama’s economists predicted five months ago.

    If the American people have an appetite for $3.8 trillion dollars of government and vote out any politicians who actually talks about specific cuts, then the only solution is more than $1 trillion dollar of additional tax increases and the top 1% just does not have that level of government.

    If people are against austerity in government, then they are voting for austerity in their own lives and should have to pay the taxes for the government that they demand. In the long run, it is the only way of running the government that is sustainable.

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  105. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    And bloomberg also says The government posted a deficit of $1.3 trillion last year

    That was 2010. You said we were currently running a deficit of 1.3 trillion
    Viz.

    The federal government is running a budget deficit over around $1.3 trillion.

    The non partisan CBO projects the budgets deficits for the current year which ends in a few weeks to be 1.066 trillion and for next year 2012 it’s around 1.1 trillion. What Obama’s budget is is totally irrelevant to the projected numbers because everyone apart from you apparently knows it’s for the birds.

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  106. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    Please provide the specific with your post or is bloomberg.com now a right-wing website that cannot be trusted.

    Unlike I don’t feel it necessary to continually mispresent and distort information so you rely on what I say say as being accurate to the best of my knowledge…viz

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-19/u-s-budget-deficit-forecast-increased-by-cbo-to-1-066-trillion-for-2011.html

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  107. superdestroyer says:

    @Brummagem Joe:

    You did notice the date on the article of By Laura Litvan – Aug 19, 2010 2:40 PM ET. I gave you to cites from the last month. I wonder which one is more up to date.

    Are you really going to deny that President Obama submitted a budget this month with a $1.3 trillion dollar deficit of FY2013?

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  108. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    Are you really going to deny that President Obama submitted a budget this month with a $1.3 trillion dollar deficit of FY2013?

    No. But as anyone with any knowledge of this subject knows Obama’s budget in the words of John Boehner is dead on arrival.

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  109. Brummagem Joe says:

    @superdestroyer:

    You did notice the date on the article of By Laura Litvan – Aug 19, 2010 2:40 PM ET. I gave you to cites from the last month. I wonder which one is more up to date

    Since your links don’t work how would I know. Are you specifically claiming that the CBO has now revised its forecast for the 2011 deficit to 1.3 trillion.

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  110. zargon says:

    @Murrell: and the factual basis for believing that the gathered together scribblings of ancient tribal barbarians is the word of some omnipotent being and using them as a guide to life. people need to wake up and start taking responsibility for thier own lives and stop believing in divine guidance, fate etc…

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  111. Lou says:

    Somebody get Dana Carvey on the phone, stat! The Church Lady is needed now more than ever.

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  112. Calvin says:

    Wow! I’m with you.
    How can we trust ta candidate who spent his Fridays as a kid at Catholic Mass during the same time our true messiah Barry Hussein was banging his head on the ground in an Indonesia madras???
    I’m mean Jesus Christ: Santorum doesn’t believe in abortion or birth control like 99% of Latin America, whereas Obama was taught women should wear burkas and get stoned to death for be raped. That is, before the Chosen One BHO joined Rev. Wrights’ “goddamn America” church and learned wealth redistribution.

    Hmmm, the decision is so clear. Devote Catholic, vs. devote Marxist….

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  113. Lou says:

    @Calvin:
    Obama banged his head on fabric (madras)? Why would he do that?

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  114. John Mann says:

    @Calvin: It’s hard to imagine someone actually believing this nonsense, but then again, Santorum was a Romney supporter in 2008, so crazier things have happened.

    Still, the fact that supposedly rational adults are even discussing the possibility that such an entity as “Satan” exists is insane enough on the face of it.

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  115. James says:

    @Calvin:

    our true messiah Barry Hussein was banging his head on the ground in an Indonesia madras???

    This is easily some of the most ridiculous dand offensive drivel I’ve seen posted here. If you’re going to try and impugn Barack Obama’s biograpghy, do try and do better to hide your naked bigotry.

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