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Six Baltimore Police Officers Charged In Death Of Freddie Gray

Handcuffs Jail

In a move that surprised some given previous warnings that the investigation may take time, the State’s Attorney for Baltimore announced today that Freddie Gray’s death had been determined to be a homicide and that charges, ranging from murder and manslaughter to assault, had been filed against the six Baltimore Police Officers involved in the incident that led to his death:

BALTIMORE — Prosecutors here, in an unexpected announcement, said Friday they had probable cause to file homicide, manslaughter and misconduct charges against police officers in the death of Freddie Gray, who died after sustaining a spinal cord injury while in police custody.

In a news conference, the state’s attorney in Baltimore, Marilyn J. Mosby, described repeated mistreatment of Mr. Gray. Time and again, she said, officers abused him, arresting him without grounds and violating police procedure by putting him in handcuffs and leg restraints in the van without putting a seatbelt on him.

Ms. Mosby also said the officers had repeatedly failed to seek medical attention for Mr. Gray after he was injured. By the time he was removed from the van, she said, “Mr. Gray was no longer breathing at all.”

“We have probable cause to file criminal charges,” Ms. Mosby said.

The death, Ms. Mosby said, is believed to be the result of an injury Mr. Gray sustained while riding in the van without a seatbelt.

Ms. Mosby also said that the knife the police say Mr. Gray was carrying had not been a legitimate basis for his arrest. “The knife was not a switchblade, and it is lawful,” she said. She said the officers had “failed to establish probable cause for an arrest.”

(…)

One officer, Caesar R. Goodson Jr. was charged with second-degree murder, manslaughter, assault and misconduct in office. Lt. Brian W. Rice was charged with manslaughter, assault, misconduct in office and false imprisonment. Officer William G. Porter and Sgt. Alicia D. White were each charged with manslaughter, assault and misconduct in office. Officers Edward M. Nero and Garrett E. Miller were charged with assault, misconduct in office and false imprisonment.

More from The Baltimore Sun:

The six Baltimore police officers involved in the arrest of Freddie Gray – who died last month after being injured in police custody – have been charged criminally, State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosbyannounced Friday.

Mosby’s announcement on the steps of the War Memorial Building was greeted with cheers and applause. Mosby said she told Gray’s family that “no one is above the law.”

Word traveled quickly of the charges against the officers. In West Baltimore, cars honked their horns. A man hanging out of a truck window pumped his fists and yelled; “Justice! Justice! Justice!”

At the corner where Gray was arrested, 53-year-old Willie Rooks held his hands up in peace signs and screamed, “Justice!”

Meecah Tucker, 23, wearing a T-shirt that read, “I Bleed Baltimore,” said: “If it was one of us doing that against a police officer, it would be first-degree murder.”

In Gilmor Homes, the neighborhood where Gray lived, things were quiet Friday, with a police helicopter circling overhead. At the intersection of North Avenue and Pennsylvania Avenue, the focus of rioting Monday and demonstrations all week, traffic moved through with many motorists honking their horns.

Warrants were issued for the arrest of all six officers. It wasn’t immediately clear where the officers were Friday morning.

Officer Caesar Goodson Jr., 45, who was the driver of a police van that carried Gray through the streets of Baltimore, was charged with second-degree murder, manslaughter, second-degree assault, two vehicular manslaughter charges and misconduct in office.

Officer William Porter, 25, was charged with involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault and misconduct in office.

Lt. Brian Rice, 41, was charged with involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault and misconduct in office.

Sgt. Alicia White, 30, was charged with involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault and misconduct in office.

Officer Edward Nero, 29, was charged with second-degree assault and misconduct in office.

Officer Garrett Miller, 26, was charged with second-degree assault, misconduct in office and false imprisonment.

If convicted of all charges, Goodson would face up to 63 years in prison. Rice would face up to 30 years and Porter, Nero, Miller and White would face up to 20 years.

Mosby’s recounting of the events as revealed by the investigation conducted by both her office and the Police Department is quite chilling:

In a detailed recounting of the events, Mosby described Gray being repeatedly denied medical attention by police officers, even as he asked for medical help and later was unresponsive in a police van.

Gray suffered a “severe and critical neck injury” as a result of being handcuffed, shackled and being unrestrained in the van.

Mosby said an investigation found officers placed Gray in wrist and ankle restraints and left him stomach-down on the floor of a police van as they drove around West Baltimore. Despite his repeated requests for medical attention, they did not provide it and continued to drive without securing him in the van, she said.

Officers on at least five occasions placed Gray in the van or checked on him and failed to secure him, she said. By the time they reached the Western District police station, he was not breathing and was in cardiac arrest, she said.

Mosby said her office did a “comprehensive, thorough and independent” investigation that began April 13, the day after Gray was injured.\

“My team worked around the clock, 12- and 14-hour days,” she said.

Mosby worked quickly in filing charges. Baltimore Police handed over their investigation to her office Thursday, one day earlier than they had promised.

More details of the charges will be contained in the indictments ultimately filed in this case and, of course, as these cases proceed forward through the legal system. As with every other person charged with a crime, it is important to note that these officers are entitled to a presumption of innocence until they are proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If the charges that Mosby detailed this morning are accurate, though, it would seem to be clear that they did not grant Freddie Gray the same presumption, nor did they even act with the kind of sympathy and respect you would expect from an officer of the law when dealing with someone who is injured and in pain. Instead, it would appear from the facts alleged that they took Gray on what is known colloquially as a “rough ride,” in which a suspect is restrained and placed in the back of a police van unrestrained while the officers take the van on a high speed ride through city streets that results in the suspect being tossed around the interior. Indeed, Gray’s case is not the first one in which someone was injured while being transported in a Baltimore police van. In this case, it appears from what Mosby has represented about the contents about the autopsy, as well as a report that was released yesterday, that the injury to Gray that proved to be fatal occurred when his head struck something inside the van, but there also appears to be a suggestion that he was injured to at least some extent prior to having been placed in the van or possibly during one of the times that the van stopped on its way to the police station where it was ultimately found that Gray was unconscious and unresponsive in the back of the van.

Today’s developments come at the end of a rather interesting twenty-four hours in which a number of reports were released in anticipation that something might be announced today. The Baltimore Police held a press conference early yesterday morning in which they announced that they had completed their investigation and turned their findings over to Mosby, but there were many leaders at the time who were cautioning residents that it could take some time before the State’s Attorney decides how to proceed. At the same time, The Washington Post came out with a report supposedly based on a leaked portion of that investigation which said that another prisoner who was in the van with Gray for a portion of the trip to the police station told police that he could hear loud noises coming from the enclosed cell next to him, supposedly evidence that Gray was trying to injure himself. By the end of the day, however, a reporter for one of the local television stations had tracked this second prisoner down, and he made it clear that  what was reported in the Post was heavily exaggerated and that he never heard any loud noises. Then, late last night, it was reported by a British newspaper that the man who had shot the cell phone video that originally led people to start asking questions about Gray’s death had been arrested for reasons that nobody seems to be able to figure out.

At least in the short term, this should go a long way toward calming things down in Baltimore and in the other cities where protests have popped up this week, including New York City, Washington, D.C., and Philadelphia. To a large degree, it was the perception that the case was being swept under the rug that was driving the protests to begin with, and now that charges have been brought. At the same time, though, it’s worth noting that, as with the cases of Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, and Walter Scott, the issues raised by the death of Freddie Gray go beyond one single case and one single police department. The perception among African-Americans at all income levels that they are treated differently by police is one that is based in reality, and it’s something that ought to be taken seriously rather than dismissed, which as Conor Friedersdorf points out today, is the way that many conservatives seem to treat the entire issue of police abuse. Additionally, while nothing can justify the rioting that took place in Baltimore on Monday, the reality of what people who live in inner city areas like Baltimore’s is something that America rarely pays attention to until something like this happens. The conditions that led to what happened in Baltimore exist in many parts of the country, all that’s waiting is a spark to set them off. We can either figure out how to deal with those problems now, or deal with those problems when the explode in violence.

In any case, the State’s Attorney has acted appropriately in this matter. Now, we should let the legal system do what it is designed to do.

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About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May, 2010 and also writes at Below The Beltway. Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. CB says:

    I see a lot of calls for BPD officers to walk off the job in protest. I am in 100% agreement. They absolutely should walk away, and open up positions to people who understand the flat out unsustainability of the current model.

    I’ll just disregard the idiocy involved in protesting charges filed against authorities involved in, at best, negligent manslaughter.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 47 Thumb down 0

  2. Just 'nutha' ig'rant cracker says:

    Well, good ole El Rushbo was running with the Washington Post article yesterday, not quite saying that Grey’s injuries must have been self-inflicted, so this would be another example of the left creating a story of police violence where there is none. Expect the right to identify the charged officers as martyrs prosecuted on trumped up charges soon.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 33 Thumb down 1

  3. Paul L. says:

    Doug left out that If the officer driving Freddie Gray’s van {Officer Caesar Goodson Jr} refuses to speak to investigators. But it is wrong to mention that because 5th.

    Support the Federal Law Enforcement Bill of Rights.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 18

  4. @CB:

    I’ll just disregard the idiocy involved in protesting charges filed against authorities involved in, at best, negligent manslaughter.

    You’re forgetting the false imprisonment charge. False imprisonment is a felony. If someone dies in the course of a comission of a felony, felony homicide makes it murder even if you didn’t intend to kill them.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 31 Thumb down 0

  5. Hal_10000 says:

    The one thing we need to realize is that this isn’t a few bad apples. We’ve had decades of governments looking the other way on police brutality, especially when it is visited upon black people. Dozens, perhaps hundreds of people have been subjected to these rough rides or worse. The threatened walkouts and the responses of, “How DARE you question us” are a direct result of that. If a corporate culture were this sick, you’d fire everyone and rebuild the company from scratch. I don’t think we need to go that far, but firing a few folks isn’t going to fix this. Baltimore PD doesn’t need a bandaid; it needs major surgery.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 42 Thumb down 1

  6. KM says:

    In this case, it appears from what Mosby has represented about the contents about the autopsy, as well as a report that was released yesterday, that the injury to Gray that proved to be fatal occurred when his head struck something inside the van, but there also appears to be a suggestion that he was injured to at least some extent prior to having been placed in the van or possibly during one of the times that the van stopped on its way to the police station where it was ultimately found that Gray was unconscious and unresponsive in the back of the van

    This needs to be verified by a third party medical examiner immediately. I’m sorry but at this point anything that comes out of Baltimore PD or is associated with them professionally needs to be treated with a healthy dose of skepticism. Pinning it on the “rough ride” and not the actions is the arrest is somewhat dubious; while you can certainly break your neck in a car ride, it seems somewhat unlikely that what was caught on camera did so little damage to Grey physically it warrants a “suggestion” of injury and was not listed as possible contributing factor.

    It also has the added benefit of taking a measure of guilt off the officers in question. It removes the bloodstain directly from their hands and makes them inattentive villains rather then cruel tormentors. A great way to minimize what they can in this most blatant act of violence – no cameras on the ride gives plausible deniability and the whole “we didn’t know he was badly hurt!” crap.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 0

  7. Hal_10000 says:

    @Just ‘nutha’ ig’rant cracker:

    Actually, I’ve been encouraged by some on the right wing taking this seriously. Bill O’Reilly, of all people, called for a zero tolerance policy for police brutality. Their biggest problem is that they don’t grasp the diseased cultural norm that is at the bottom of this.

    The allegation that Gray injured himself was real but ridiculous. It takes a lot to break someone’s neck, least of all severe their spine.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  8. Franklin says:

    I haven’t really been paying attention to the details. When somebody told me about the “rough ride” stuff I thought they were making stuff up. Now that it’s confirmed, I’m completely appalled. Six officers contributed to this? Not one of them had the guts to stand up and put a stop to this?
    I agree with CB … please go ahead and walk off if you can’t admit this was wrong. And don’t come back.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 33 Thumb down 0

  9. @Hal_10000:

    The one thing we need to realize is that this isn’t a few bad apples.

    Even if it is, don’t forget that the proverb “bad apples” comes from is “one bad apple spoils the entire barrel”.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 0

  10. Dave D says:

    Let’s not forget that his crime was making eye contact with an officer and running away. He had a switch blade on him, that is what led to his death. Allegedly having a switchblade on him became a capital offense.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 3

  11. @Dave D:

    He had a switch blade on him, that is what led to his death. Allegedly having a switchblade on him became a capital offense.

    Except the police lied about the switchblade. It was a perfectly legal pocket knife:

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/prosecutor-knife-switchblade-found-clipped-grays-pants-pocket-30729688

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 27 Thumb down 0

  12. CSK says:

    @Dave D:

    It wasn’t a switchblade. The knife he was carrying is perfectly legal in Maryland.

    But I see your point about it becoming a capital offense.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 0

  13. CB says:

    @Dave D:

    And it wasn’t even a switchblade!

    …D’oh. Stormy has it covered.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  14. C. Clavin says:

    More than 30% of the arrests in Baltimore are bogus.
    Including this one, which was for having a legal knife.
    Even so…I got $20 says the cops get off, again.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 3

  15. Franklin says:

    @Paul L.:

    Doug left out that If the officer driving Freddie Gray’s van {Officer Caesar Goodson Jr} refuses to speak to investigators.

    Oh, so is this your new right wing hero? You must be so proud. Instead of swearing to “protect and serve” this guy thinks his job is to “swerve and project.” I hope you take a ride with him someday.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 2

  16. T says:

    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/01/police-union-influence-maryland-runs-deep/

    Police unions play a significant role in Maryland politics, from campaign endorsements to influence peddling. According to public records, the largest police associations, including the Baltimore Fraternal Order of Police, donated $1,834,680 to state politicians over the last decade and retained several of most prominent lobbyists in the state.

    “Our people said that the committee leadership was worried about the police reaction,” explained Thomas Nephew, an activist with the Montgomery County Civil Rights Coalition, who was present at the March 12th hearing. “One of the legislative leaders said something like, if these bills go through, the cops will riot in the streets, which really tells you something.”

    Police unions gonna Police union.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  17. @CSK:
    @CB:
    @C. Clavin:

    Hah! Nimble dragon claws win again!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  18. DrDaveT says:

    Ms. Mosby also said the officers had repeatedly failed to seek medical attention for Mr. Gray after he was injured.

    Once again, this seems to be the most common link among all of the publicized incidents over the past couple of years. The level of provocation and/or justification behind the initial confrontation varies wildly, from “none at all” to “yeah, probably guilty as hell”. The absolute indifference to suffering and medical need is without exception.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 31 Thumb down 0

  19. DrDaveT says:

    @Franklin:

    Six officers contributed to this? Not one of them had the guts to stand up and put a stop to this?

    It’s actually worse than that. It wasn’t six officers — it was four officers, a sergeant, and a lieutenant. If that doesn’t scream “department policy” to you, it should.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 38 Thumb down 0

  20. Dave D says:

    @Stormy Dragon: I hadn’t seen that. This makes it so much worse. No wonder he was running from them.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  21. OzarkHillbilly says:

    the way that many conservatives seem to treat the entire issue of police abuse.

    Ho hum…. How ’bout them Cards?!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

  22. @Franklin:

    Not one of them had the guts to stand up and put a stop to this?

    As Frank Serpico discovered, police departments work on a “snitches get stitches” policy.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  23. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Hal_10000: The thing was, not only was his spine 80% severed, his larynx was crushed as well. How does a person do both to themselves?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 0

  24. michael reynolds says:

    The Baltimore police seem to be acting like a protection racket: pay up or we walk off and hey, who knows, someone might break your windows or beat up your mother. And then you’ll stop questioning how we do our thing.

    None of these cases have involved “bad apples.” When additional cops arrive on the scene and immediately participate rather than at the very least restraining fellow officers, it’s absurd to talk about bad apples. These are thoroughly rotten police departments, thugs in uniform.

    What’s changed is cameras in cell phones. Suddenly decades of allegations of police brutality – inevitably dismissed – are demonstrated to be true. Police are out-of-control gangs hired to defend the wealthy and suppress the poor. No different that strike-breaking Pinkertons or the secret police in any number of repressive countries.

    Police officials – including the idiots who run the police unions – need to get it through their heads that this sh!t won’t fly anymore, not in the age of cellphones. Juries watch TV, too, and people will be much more skeptical of cops in the future. The entire edifice of the criminal justice system (hah!) is crumbling behind overturned death sentences, new science about eyewitnesses, bogus FBI “science” and widespread police brutality.

    Thing one: End the drug war. This all goes back to the drug war which, in terms of its impact, is a war on vulnerable minorities. Get cops off of hassling people on possession charges and low-end street dealers, and focus them on violent crime. Cops should be there to protect life and property, not public morals.

    And it goes back to having a society saturated by guns, a frightened society, paranoid, which feeds both police paranoia and hair-trigger reactions.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 53 Thumb down 3

  25. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Dave D:

    He had a switch blade on him

    From the post above:

    Ms. Mosby also said that the knife the police say Mr. Gray was carrying had not been a legitimate basis for his arrest. “The knife was not a switchblade, and it is lawful,” she said. She said the officers had “failed to establish probable cause for an arrest.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0

  26. Tillman says:

    Dude on Twitter was talking about how successful a cynical attitude is when it comes to making predictions about victims of police brutality receiving justice. Didn’t reply, but wanted to say that’s how society works: you keep doing the same shit all the time until someone starts a riot, then you make as few changes as possible until the next one. Been that way at least since the 1500s under less-forgiving tyrannies. The mob rules, and if you do crap stupid enough to get a mob on your institutional ass, you’d best make some changes before they kill you.

    Perhaps we might grow soft enough one day that the mob’s worst threat against you is torching your house, and no one thinks of killing anybody to get a point across, but that is an illusion in our modern day too many people have.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

  27. michael reynolds says:

    It was fun to watch the press conference with the prosecutor, Ms. Mosby just for the open disdain she showed for the reporters at the end.

    If she brings this home look for her in a Governor’s race somewhere down the line.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 31 Thumb down 1

  28. KM says:

    @michael reynolds:

    Police officials – including the idiots who run the police unions – need to get it through their heads that this sh!t won’t fly anymore, not in the age of cellphones.

    THIS. A thousand times this. For the first time in history we can record almost anything when it happens. There is no need to trust authority to be honest because now we can see what they’re doing and hold them accountable. The thing about the Big Brother concept is he watches everyone. Potential eyes everywhere and citizenry that understand ht power of video means evil has less places to hide.

    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Nikon, Samsung and Apple are picking up the slack, apparently.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 29 Thumb down 0

  29. JKB says:

    The city as well as the police leadership are just as guilty. They’ve got several multi-million dollar settlements for “rough rides”, yet they didn’t see the benefit of outfitting the transport vans with cameras and other sensors? Or make it a fireable offense to not follow proper securing procedures for restrained suspects?

    If only the Democrats were permitted to run the city and African-Americans were in city government and the police leadership.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 38

  30. KM says:

    @JKB:

    I was all set to thumb up that till you go and ruin it with the partisan crap at the end. Do you really need to go for a pointless cheap shot when you already have a valid point? Bad authority is bad, regardless of what letter is after their name.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 46 Thumb down 2

  31. C. Clavin says:

    @michael reynolds:

    Police officials – including the idiots who run the police unions – need to get it through their heads that this sh!t won’t fly anymore, not in the age of cellphones.

    Yeah…probably not so much.
    More likely states will simply make it illegal to record police activity. This seems unconstitutional to me…but so does using religious freedom as an excuse to force an employers beliefs onto their employees…and yet here we are.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 4

  32. JKB says:

    It saddens that this tragedy has marred Socialist Massacre Celebration Day.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 35

  33. Tillman says:

    @KM: Something that most people don’t notice about 1984: the people under the worst scrutiny by Big Brother were members of what my HS English teacher called the Outer Party, the bureaucrats like Winston Smith and other government workers. As long as the proles (read: us) are fat and happy (read: not rioting), Big Brother was always more concerned with deviation from orthodoxy inside its own government machine.

    What we have here is proles rioting, which means someone in the Outer Party (read: this time it’s the police, next time probably a garbage collector strike or something) really screwed up. Multiple times at least. Americans only get lazier with the passage of time: stirring up an American riot in 2015 is much harder than it was in 1999, or 1968. If you can get an obese population to get on their feet and say you’re a bastard, then you’re making Baby Machiavelli and Baby Talleyrand-Périgord cry.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 1

  34. CSK says:

    @C. Clavin:

    The courts have consistently upheld the right of people to record police activity, although some state rep in Texas wants to make it illegal there for a non-press person to film from a distance of less than 25 feet.

    Prosecutors in states with strong laws about wiretapping and second-party consent to being recorded tried to use these statutes to prosecute people who filmed/taped/recorded arrests or other police activities..

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  35. superdestroyer says:

    @Franklin:

    Since Mr. Goodson is black, I doubt the rightwing will put much effort into protecting him. Mr. Goodson is going to learn that black law enforcement have no friends.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  36. michael reynolds says:

    @C. Clavin:
    Nah, you can’t outlaw cell phones or taping cops. Unconstitutional, no way, no how do the Supremes allow it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  37. michael reynolds says:

    @KM:

    Well, them plus Rorschach of course.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  38. Dave Schuler says:

    I hope this brings a halt to the violence, both public and private, that has rocked Baltimore.

    I have my doubts that the police officers will be convicted on the charges. Based on published accounts it’s hard to see how the charge of 2nd degree murder in particular would stand. The defense that the original arrest was a mistake should obviate the possibility of predicate felony. If every mistake by every police officer is a possible felony, you probably won’t retain many police officers.

    I also hope that these charges and arrests won’t bring an end to the refocusing of attention on the problems of our cities. The end of violence rather than be a good time to rest on our laurels is the perfect time to identify ways and means of remediation.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4

  39. rodney dill says:

    @KM: …and JKB is the only one you note throwing in a pointless partisan cheap shot at the end of a comment?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 9 Thumb down 11

  40. michael reynolds says:

    @Dave Schuler:

    It may not have been a mistake. It may have been sadism or it may have been payback for some earlier interaction.

    I suspect the reason for the top end charges is to push some of the cops to roll over on the others. The first to testify gets the best deal, and with their careers in law enforcement effectively over, they’ll start looking to their own welfare. Cops do not want to go to prison.

    If you want quick remediation you need to reduce the friction between the police and the people, and that means pulling cops off lifestyle crimes and onto the crimes the community actually wants solved. They need to follow the lead of the fictional Baltimore Police Major Bunny Colvin and end the drug war. That single decision would move the ball halfway to a better relationship.

    Jobs would be good, too, obviously. But first, stop arresting kids and their parents for drug use. Not every drug user is a terrible parent or worthless employee. An awful lot of great music has come from heroin addicts, a lot of great comedy has come from coke users. If we would cut through the propaganda of the drug warriors we’d see that enforcing drug laws does more damage than the drugs themselves.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 1

  41. stonetools says:

    Someone on Twitter noted that it took 12 days for the Prosecutor to charge the police in this case-whereas it has been 160 days since the drive by police shooting of 12 year Tamar Rice (recorded on video!).

    Maybe Cleveland needs a riot? (for which, of course, there is quite obviously, no excuse.)

    It does seem that the black community usually has to shout as loud as it can to get any justice at all in police brutality cases-and then often not even then (cough, Eric Garner?)

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 23 Thumb down 3

  42. jukeboxgrad says:

    Michael:

    This all goes back to the drug war which, in terms of its impact, is a war on vulnerable minorities.

    Yes, and it’s also a key way of suppressing D votes. About a million black people can’t vote because they’re in jail.

    An awful lot of great music has come from heroin addicts, a lot of great comedy has come from coke users.

    And the person who built the most valuable company in the world was someone who said “taking LSD was a profound experience, one of the most important things in my life.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 2

  43. Dave Schuler says:

    @michael reynolds:

    My point was not that it was a mistake but that it can be claimed to have been a mistake.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  44. C. Clavin says:

    @michael reynolds:
    Seriously? The Roberts Court? You underestimate them.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4

  45. C. Clavin says:

    @JKB:
    Oooooh…someone has been watching Fox News again!!!!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

  46. Facebones says:

    @CB:

    And it wasn’t even a switchblade!

    Seriously, no cop thought to have a drop blade? Rookies.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 0

  47. Facebones says:

    @michael reynolds:

    The Baltimore police seem to be acting like a protection racket: pay up or we walk off and hey, who knows, someone might break your windows or beat up your mother. And then you’ll stop questioning how we do our thing.

    The same thing happened here in NYC last Christmas after the Eric Garner protests. Cops stopped giving quality of life tickets and street cleaning tickets. As the NY Post reported, and probably being unintentionally ironic, the cops were having a slowdown and “only arresting people when necessary.” Arrests and tickets dropped a reported 93%.

    Wrap your mind around that. Only 7% of the arrests in NYC are considered “necessary” by the police. The rest? Basically revenue collection for the city, hassling minority teens, and making people miserable because they were five minutes late moving their car for street “cleaning.”

    Let the Baltimore cops walk off. Let the NYC ones as well. They’ve shown us that their jobs really aren’t as important to law and order as they pretend.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 35 Thumb down 1

  48. gVOR08 says:

    @Facebones: Drop blade? W. Bush was too dumb to take along a couple vials of anthrax to drop in Iraq. Is it fair to expect better planning from police than the president?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

  49. HarvardLaw92 says:

    I’ve enjoyed talking to (most of) you folks over the years, but this commentary is honestly just too much for me to stomach any further. I’m out of here. I wish you all well in your future endeavors.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 23

  50. Tyrell says:

    This seems kind of quick to have a thorough investigation. I am also not sure of a murder charge. They would have to prove intent. At best would be a manslaughter by negligence charge. But they need to have clear, indisputable evidence, not some trumped up conjecture, hypothesis, profile, theorem, guess work, feelings, some law professor’s theory, spin the wheel, or an effort to placate the crowd. This could easily wind up being another Casey Anthony, Zimmerman fiasco with a jury decision of not guilty or even thrown out by a judge.
    There are other possible explanations: an accident, another prisoner did it, a mob hit, or previous condition.
    I will admit openly that I do not have a lot of formal legal knowledge.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

  51. @Tyrell:

    They would have to prove intent.

    Not if the death occured in the commission of a felony:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  52. Electroman says:

    @CSK:

    Prosecutors in states with strong laws about wiretapping and second-party consent to being recorded tried to use these statutes to prosecute people who filmed/taped/recorded arrests or other police activities..

    One of those states was, in fact, Maryland.

    http://dockets.justia.com/docket/maryland/mddce/8:2012cv03592/221705/

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  53. Just 'nutha' ig'rant cracker says:

    @Hal_10000: And yet, Rush this morning described the charges laid against the officers as “the rape of justice and the rule of law,” at which point, one of the ditto heads called to ask if this incident was the latest step “the federalizing of law enforcement.”

    I’m glad that some on the right are taking this seriously. It opens the possibility that thinking, rather than reacting, will start happening. The idea that the right will see the systemic elements that this type of event indicates is a bridge too far for me.

    (And normally, I don’t listen to the right wingnut echo chamber, but I just got back from 8 years abroad rented a car for the week and couldn’t resist indulging myself as a guilty pleasure. The other highlight of the week was the assertion by Michael Medved that Hillary’s assertion about the US having 5% of the world’s population and 25% of the imprisoned of the world simply shows that the US is 5 times better at enforcing the law and bringing people to justice. WTF???!!!???)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  54. Another Mike says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    I’m out of here.

    I will miss you and your thoughtful and reasoned style of arguing a point. Truthfully, it always seemed to me that you were out of place here.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 7

  55. Rafer Janders says:

    @Another Mike:

    I dunno. He couldn’t really point to that much that was factually wrong with most of the commentary, though, could he? He just…didn’t care for the tone. Oh dear.

    I see this a lot with former prosecutors — they sort of get….emotionally captured, I suppose, by the police, and start to assume, whether conscously or not, that their job is to stand with the cops per se rather than with justice.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 2

  56. @Rafer Janders:

    I think it’s more a road to serfdom thing. DA’s that don’t toe the police line get trashed as “soft on crime” in elections, so non-capturered prosecutors never get promoted and are eventually constructively dismissed. Eventually only the true-believers are left.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

  57. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    Really? Out of all of the commentary that has happened here this is what did it for you? Why not make your case whatever that may be rather than leaving in a huff?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 35 Thumb down 1

  58. ernieyeball says:

    Mosby said she told Gray’s family that “no one is above the law.”

    So we would hope.

    THE WHITE HOUSE
    Office of the Press Secretary
    For Immediate Release
    April 30, 2015
    LAW DAY, U.S.A., 2015 ——-
    BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
    A PROCLAMATION
    Throughout the world, the rule of law is central to the promise of a safe, free, and just society. Respect for and adherence to the rule of law is the premise upon which the United States was founded, and it has been a cornerstone of my Presidency. America’s commitment to this fundamental principle sustains our democracy — it guides our progress, helps to ensure all people receive fair treatment, and protects our Government of, by, and for the people.
    This Law Day, we celebrate a milestone in the extraordinary history of the rule of law by marking the 800th anniversary of the Magna Carta. Centuries ago, when kings, emperors, and warlords reigned over much of the world, it was this extraordinary document — agreed to by the King of England in 1215 — that first spelled out the rights and liberties of man.
    The ideals of the Magna Carta inspired America’s forefathers to define and protect many of the rights expressed in our founding documents, which we continue to cherish today.
    The Magna Carta has also provided a framework for constitutional democracies throughout the world, and my Administration is committed to supporting good governance based upon the rule of law. Around the globe, we support strong civil institutions, independent judiciaries, and open government –because the rule of force must give way to the rule of law. For more than two centuries, we have witnessed these values drive opportunity and prosperity here in the United States, and as President, I will continue to work to bolster our systems of justice and advance efforts that do the same overseas.
    America is and always has been a nation of laws. Our institutions of justice are vital to securing the promise of our country, and they are bound up with the values and beliefs that have united peoples through the ages. The United States and our citizens are inextricably linked to all those around the world doing the hard work of strengthening the rule of law — joined
    in common purpose by our mutual interest in building freer, fairer, more just societies.
    NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, in accordance with Public Law 87-20, as amended, do hereby proclaim May 1, 2015, as Law Day, U.S.A.
    I call upon all Americans to acknowledge the importance of our Nation’s legal and judicial systems with appropriate ceremonies and activities, and to display the flag of the United States in
    support of this national observance.
    IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this thirtieth day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand fifteen, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-ninth.
    BARACK OBAMA

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  59. jukeboxgrad says:

    I can’t remember the last gbcw here.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  60. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Grewgills:

    There is no case to make. This panel has determined its verdict long before today’s announcement of charges, and challenging the orthodoxy of what has increasingly become some sort of self-congratulating mental masturbation society / echo chamber just doesn’t interest me much any longer. To be frank, it never really has. I’m not sure why I stuck around as long as I did.

    An HONEST discussion of this subject would by necessity involve a challenge to the blanket “cops bad / poor oppressed people good” nonsense that has been bandied about over the last few days, and it would involve facing some uncomfortable facts that I suspect this bunch of apologists would be incensed about being confronted with. I grew up in Baltimore, so I can speak to those uncomfortable facts from first-hand experience, but why bother? What’s to be gained at this point? They don’t want to hear it. In their own way, they’re every bit as closed minded as the right-wingers they excoriate.

    In that light, let the echo chamber do its thing. I’ll be doing mine by volunteering my services pro bono to the defense.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 25

  61. jukeboxgrad says:

    A troll is “one who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.”

    I remember when you said this:

    You are entirely missing the point and mistaking a performance for a position. The point was not to argue a position. The point was to present a pinata designed to cause you and others like you to react

    “Present a pinata designed to cause you and others like you to react” is just a longer way of saying “deliberately provocative,” and I think what we’re seeing from you is just another deliberately provocative “performance.” You have already warned us that anyone who takes you seriously is probably “mistaking a performance for a position.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 4

  62. @Stormy Dragon:

    DA’s that don’t toe the police line get trashed as “soft on crime” in elections

    Case in point, the Baltimore FOP is already threatening the political career of City Councilman Nick Mosby for merely being married to a state’s attorney that dared indict cops:

    An Open Letter to State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosby 5/1/2015

    Most importantly, it is clear that your husband’s political future will be impacted, for better or worse, by the outcome of your investigation.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

  63. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    For example …

    Riddle me this: Maryland, and Baltimore in particular, has some of the most generous welfare & assistance programs int the nation. A single mother living in Baltimore (of which there is a surplus, given the facts that 2/3rd of the city’s births are to unwed mothers, and 60% of the city’s households are headed by single parents) qualifies for a buffet of assistance. TANF, SNAP, Medicaid, Housing Assistance, Utilities Assistance, WIC, Emergency Food Assistance, etc. The list goes on and on, to the point where a single mom with 2 kids in Baltimore receives the equivalent of $18.35 an hour in benefits.

    We’re throwing money at them, and yet nothing has changed in West Baltimore in my lifetime. Nothing has changed in Sandtown. We have the same shiftless, lazy people (which is what they are – uncomfortable facts …) sitting around on steps that we had when I was a child. We’ve thrown literally hundreds of billions of dollars at the problem, and yet we’re worse off than when we started. You can’t expect anything different from people who expect nothing from themselves, and that’s just how it is.

    Baltimore has a black mayor. A black state’s attorney. The bulk of the police force is black, as is the police commissioner. The fire chief is black. 8 of the 15 members of the Baltimore City Council (a majority …) are black. To assert that these people have no political power, that they are unrepresented, in the face of those facts is frankly bullshit.

    Yea, I get slavery this, and redlining that, but you know, all that ended long ago. I’m fed up with the endless historical excuses that are offered up to excuse the fact that quite a large chunk of this community just doesn’t give a damn. They’d rather sit around and blame everyone and everything else but themselves for a problem that they do little, if anything, of their own volition to alleviate. They live in a hell of their own creation, and I just don’t feel sorry for them any longer. They’ve burned that goodwill up. My sympathy now is reserved for the people whose distasteful job it is to corral them and keep them under control so the rest of us can live our lives out in some semblance of order.

    If you consider that to be trolling, you have bigger problems than being offended by me. I’d suggest spending a few weeks in West Baltimore as a remedy.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 14 Thumb down 22

  64. @HarvardLaw92:

    And what of the above justifies arresting a person who’s broken no law and then bouncing them around the back of a van until their neck snaps?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 36 Thumb down 1

  65. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    Most importantly, it is clear that your husband’s political future will be impacted, for better or worse, by the outcome of your investigation.

    In other words “It is clear that the natives are going to take their anger out on your husband, given where his constituency is located, unless you throw them some white sacrifices to keep them placated.”

    They aren’t threatening her career. They aren’t threatening his. They are not too subtly suggesting that she’s playing politics by pandering to her husband’s base, and given the short span of her “investigation”, I’m inclined to agree. Job number one at this point down on Holliday Street is to keep certain sections of the city quiet. In that reality, was there ever any doubt that, regardless of the circumstances, that these officers weren’t going to be charged with something?

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 21

  66. Turgid Jacobian says:

    @HarvardLaw92: Too bad you’re leaving. On every damn thing except “law and order” you’re an extremely interesting voice. I guess once a prosecutor, you never think anybody ‘gets’ the impacts of crime.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 2

  67. Turgid Jacobian says:

    @HarvardLaw92: “In that reality, was there ever any doubt that, regardless of the circumstances, that these officers weren’t going to be charged with something?”

    Yes, and as that I offer the last 50 years. Where were you?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 0

  68. @HarvardLaw92:

    PS – The dramatically storming out in a huff thing doesn’t work if you keep coming back to see if people miss you yet.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 24 Thumb down 1

  69. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    A known drug dealer with multiple convictions for narcotics trafficking standing in a drug-infested area who runs from the police justifies arrest, IMO. The courts have been clear on that point.

    As for the bouncing around, you weren’t there. I wasn’t there. You’re assuming that it happened, I suspect because you dislike the police. I suspect that it didn’t. There’s enough reasonable doubt introduced by the testimony of the other passenger that he injured himself, and that’s all that I need to hear. Given the choice between 6 decorated cops and one drug dealer, I know who I’m, more likely to believe.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 25

  70. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Turgid Jacobian:

    No, I’m just beyond fed up with apologists. Do I favor the police? Absolutely. It is what it is.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 21

  71. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    I think you are reading things into comments if you think that is what is being argued. There are bad cops and there are cops and others protecting them. I think that is hard to deny at this point. There are certainly problems in the community, some from within, but some also imposed from without (redlining etc). I don’t think that is much in dispute either.

    I’ll be doing mine by volunteering my services pro bono to the defense.

    Seriously? It doesn’t seem to be disputed at this point (not even by the police involved) that Gray was picked up for a legal pocket knife, then restrained him and put him in the back of a van without belting him in for a ‘rough ride’. Following that he was not given medical treatment. That also is not in dispute. Why would you go out of your way to offer your services pro bono to officers who did this?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 27 Thumb down 0

  72. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Turgid Jacobian:

    You’re missing the point. They could be utterly blameless and they’d still be charged with something to placate the hordes down in West Baltimore who’ve made a drug dealer into their latest hero du jour. That’s reality. The alternative is another riot.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 19

  73. @HarvardLaw92:

    A known drug dealer with multiple convictions for narcotics trafficking standing in a drug-infested area who runs from the police justifies arrest, IMO. The courts have been clear on that point.

    Except not. Running from the cops can establish reasonable suspicion (Illinois v. Wardlow), but arrest requires probable cause. Gray’s flight justified the police stopping him and searching him, but when the stop revealed no evidence of an actual crime, they were required to release him.

    Instead they fabricated an imaginary switchblade to justify arresting him on bullshit charges.

    PS – Am I the only one who notices that HarvardLaw92 never cites any actual cases for his legal opinions?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 29 Thumb down 1

  74. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Grewgills:

    Seriously? It doesn’t seem to be disputed at this point (not even by the police involved) that Gray was picked up for a legal pocket knife, then restrained him and put him in the back of a van without belting him in for a ‘rough ride’. Following that he was not given medical treatment. That also is not in dispute. Why would you go out of your way to offer your services pro bono to officers who did this?

    Gray was picked up because he ran, and between his arrest history and the crime-infested nature of the area, that’s sufficient cause to arrest him. The knife was discovered after he’d been apprehended.

    The rough ride thing is disputed, and frankly, I just don’t believe it. Failing to provide medical assistance? Fine, I’ll accept negligence, but murder? Good luck …

    Why would I go out of my way? Because I’m too familiar with the folks that live in West Baltimore, and I’m too familiar with Baltimore politics. I’ve decided that I believe they’re being railroaded in order to placate the natives, and they deserve a defense. Why wouldn’t I volunteer to assist?

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 21

  75. ernieyeball says:

    @HarvardLaw92:..I’m out of here. I wish you all well in your future endeavors.

    (6 Posts later.)
    Promises. Promises.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 3

  76. anjin-san says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    made a drug dealer into their latest hero du jour

    I for one don’t think the guy was a “hero” – and I’m not sure anyone else does. Looks like he was a petty criminal who was not committing any crimes when he was arrested. He certainly still has rights even with an arrest sheet. It seems pretty clear that this was an end-to-end clusterf**k by the cops in question that ended with a man dying for no good reason that I can see.

    I have no problem going to bat for a cop that is doing his job the right way. What happened here was wrong, wrong, wrong.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 28 Thumb down 2

  77. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    Do you really think it at all likely that Gray crushed his own trachea and nearly severed his own spine, or do you just think you are a good enough attorney to convince a jury of that?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 29 Thumb down 2

  78. @HarvardLaw92:

    The rough ride thing is disputed, and frankly, I just don’t believe it.

    The city’s paid out millions of dollars the past few years for doing it to other people and you still don’t believe. Funny how you’re willing to arrest Gray based solely on past behavior yet fail to suspect the police based on their past behavior.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 42 Thumb down 1

  79. Turgid Jacobian says:

    @HarvardLaw92: Fair enough, man. I tend to be skeptical of them.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  80. MBunge says:

    @michael reynolds: “An awful lot of great music has come from heroin addicts, a lot of great comedy has come from coke users.”

    Yeah, let’s pump the breaks a bit. Heroin didn’t make those addicts musical and coke didn’t make those users funny. They did make some of them dead and even more complete wrecks.

    It’s one thing to be against our disasterous drug policies. It’s another thing to be pro-heroin for pity’s sake. What’s next? Meth makes you a really alert security guard?

    Mike

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  81. anjin-san says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Of course the cops deserve a defense. And Freddie Gray, criminal or not, deserved to live to see another day.

    I’d be curious to see you case that these guys are being railroaded. Their behavior seems pretty egregious to me.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1

  82. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    Instead they fabricated an imaginary switchblade to justify arresting him on bullshit charges.

    Or they simply made a good-faith error about the nature of the knife. You have proof of this knowing and intentional fabrication? See where this is going?

    Feel free to call up Marilyn Mosby and offer her your assistance.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 17

  83. @anjin-san:

    I’d be curious to see you case that these guys are being railroaded.

    They’re being treated like peasantry and being subjected to the same justice as everyone else. Don’t we know the King’s Men are susposed to be above the law?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 1

  84. @HarvardLaw92:

    Or they simply made a good-faith error about the nature of the knife. You have proof of this knowing and intentional fabrication?

    Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Unless it’s actually your job to know the law. Then, meh! Whatever.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 31 Thumb down 1

  85. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    The city’s paid out millions of dollars the past few years for doing it to other people and you still don’t believe.

    The city settled lawsuits, which all cities do on a regular basis. You’re intelligent enough to know why they do that, and you’re intelligent enough to know that it doesn’t establish verification of the underlying allegations.

    You want to believe that the police are bad. Knock yourself out. I disagree, so I’m volunteering to help defend them. Given a choice between 6 decorated cops and a neighborhood full of drug dealers venerating a drug dealer, it’s doesn’t even require a second thought.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 17

  86. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Unless it’s actually your job to know the law. Then, meh! Whatever.

    I’ll take that as “No, I do not have any evidence to suggest that this wasn’t a good-faith error”. Thanks for playing.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 17

  87. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    and now it’s your contention that these decorated officers couldn’t tell the difference between a switchblade and a normal pocket knife? Seriously? Is that really the standard you want police held to?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 31 Thumb down 1

  88. anjin-san says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Or they simply made a good-faith error about the nature of the knife. You have proof of this knowing and intentional fabrication?

    I think everyone here will stipulate that you are a talented attorney. But we are not in court. Do you believe that the cops made a “good faith error” regarding the knife?

    I’m curious, are right and wrong important to you here, or do you just want to help your team win?

    (btw, I was raised by a pretty fair attorney, so I know all about the will to win that drives good lawyers)

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1

  89. PT says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Sounded pretty troll-y to me too. Sounded like Superdestroyer…

    “It” didn’t end all that long ago. And its going to take more time that just yours and my lifetime to heal.

    True change is only starting. There’s a long way to go.

    Its honestly hard for me to believe you’re being serious.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 2

  90. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @anjin-san:

    And Freddie Gray, criminal or not, deserved to live to see another day.

    Unless he injured himself, which is not outside the realm of possibility.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 34

  91. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @PT:

    “It” didn’t end all that long ago. And its going to take more time that just yours and my lifetime to heal.

    It ended 50 years ago. Just how long do you think will be required for these people to step up and take responsibility for their own lives?

    Or should we just double the amount we’re spending on them to no apparent gain?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 14

  92. anjin-san says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    drug dealers

    I was a drug dealer for a long time. I worked behind a bar, making drinks for some of the richest, most famous, and most successful people in America. But alcohol is legal, in spite of the hideous carnage it leaves in its wake.

    The guy at 7.11 that sells you a pack of smokes is a drug dealer too. Cigarettes killed my father.

    Are you so sure of the ground you are standing on when you make moral judgements about drug dealers?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 1

  93. Turgid Jacobian says:

    @HarvardLaw92: I absolutely don’t agree with this. See, lots of us can go on fact-free excursions.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

  94. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @anjin-san:

    Do you believe that the cops made a “good faith error” regarding the knife?

    Truthfully? Yes, I do. More importantly, I believe that a jury will believe it too. It offends me that what passes for city government in Baltimore is likely throwing these people to the wolves in order to buy peace.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 14

  95. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Grewgills:

    Both …

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3

  96. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Turgid Jacobian:

    Have you ever lived in Baltimore? LOL

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 10

  97. @HarvardLaw92:

    I’ll take that as “No, I do not have any evidence to suggest that this wasn’t a good-faith error”. Thanks for playing.

    Take that as “it doesn’t matter whether or not it was a good-faith error”. If someone was caught with a knife that was actually illegal, the fact they made “a good faith error” about what knives were allowed would not be a defense to a weapons charge in court. I merely expect the cops be held to the same standard as the rest of the public. If a general citizen is expected to keep up with the petty details of what knives are and aren’t legal, it doesn’t seem to onerus to expect the same cops, who are paid considerable somes of money to keep up to date on such matters.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 28 Thumb down 1

  98. anjin-san says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Unless he injured himself, which is not outside the realm of possibility.

    Sure. It’s possible he crushed his own larynx and severed his own spine.

    It’s also possible that I will have a threesome with Ashley Judd and Sandra Bullock. Possible but not very likely.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 31 Thumb down 2

  99. PT says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Ha, now I’m sure you’re trolling.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

  100. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @anjin-san: @anjin-san:

    Are you so sure of the ground you are standing on when you make moral judgements about drug dealers?

    Given the nature of his convictions (it wasn’t marijuana he was dealing), yea, I am. I have no use for, nor will I mourn the passing of, a heroin dealer.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 13

  101. @anjin-san:

    I think everyone here will stipulate that you are a talented attorney.

    Point of order, I don’t. We have no actual evidence he’s a lawyer at all, much less a talented one. I certainly haven’t been impressed by his legal arguments.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 2

  102. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @PT:

    Why? Because you don’t like the question, or you don’t have an answer to it?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 10

  103. anjin-san says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    heroin

    Legality aside, how is heroin worse than alcohol? Please be specific.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  104. Rafer Janders says:

    @Grewgills:

    Why not make your case whatever that may be rather than leaving in a huff?

    Sometimes, if you can’t get a taxi, you have to leave in a huff.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  105. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    The good-faith error sanitizes culpability with regard to having made the arrest. You know what I’m arguing here. Don’t go off on tangents just because you dislike the argument.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 9

  106. Console says:

    Top five police departments you probably shouldn’t go out of your way to defend:

    1. New Orleans
    2. Baltimore
    3. L.A.
    4. Philadelphia
    5. NYC

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

  107. Turgid Jacobian says:

    @HarvardLaw92: How many good faith errors are they allowed per dead black guys?

    Knife? Sure, why know, I don’t know what an illegal knife looks like except when I’m charging them.
    Unrestrained cuffed guy in back? Sure, I mean, it’s against policy and stuff but whatever.
    Asked for medical attention? Eh, may be faking, forget that guy.
    How many stops did we make? Three, definitely–after all a police report is a legal document! Oh, wait, yes that one we forgot… um, never mind that. Sure, we’d arrest a “civilian” for that kind of thing…

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 24 Thumb down 2

  108. michael reynolds says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    They live in a hell of their own creation

    They. Those people. Singular. As though they were an undifferentiated mass all moved by a single will.

    These are individuals with individuals stories, individual beliefs and individual struggles. I’m reminded of the story of Lot. Are there no righteous men and women in Baltimore? Are they all shiftless and lazy? Are they to blame for their problems? Is each of them to blame? Every last one of “them?”

    Tell me, if you’re 19 with a baby in your arms, where do you get to live in Baltimore on the minimum wage you earn at Burger King? It’s not in the better neighborhoods, is it? It’s in the ghetto. And once you’re there, making your minimum wage, spending two hours a day on a bus, begging child care from your relatives and neighbors, always terrified that social service will take your kid, terrified of the crime all around you, just what do you do to “fix” Baltimore?

    We have street gangs funded by the drug war lording it over decent people. The police meant to protect the people are down in Harborplace protecting tourists, protecting the source of revenue. You can be hardworking and determined but you’ll still live your life trapped and helpless between gangs and criminals and thuggish police. What exactly are those millions of “they” supposed to do about it?

    Give me your three point plan for how an unwed mom making minimum wage in Baltimore is supposed to fix any of this?

    What do you think marginal people, people with no power, no money, no time, are supposed to do to fix the corrupt, impoverished mess that is Baltimore? The people who should be doing something – people with power and money and resources and time – are busy trying to keep their taxes down and have zero interest in ensuring that the poor are safe or fed or well-policed.

    I don’t think you understand or have much sympathy for the poor. You don’t understand how radically different their lives are from yours. These people live their lives from birth to death in quicksand, and you don’t get it.

    I would be sorry to see you bail. You’re highly intelligent and logical – and we’re not overburdened with folks like that. But this is not about logic, it’s about emotions – fear, hopelessness, worry, despair. The best analogy I can suggest is that you think back to the last time you had a bad flu. Think about how difficult every single little thing was when you had fever or chills. That’s a taste of what poverty feels like.

    We’ve tried moral condemnation, and we’ve tried ignoring the problem, and we’ve tried paternalistic outside intervention. Nothing is going to work unless we get people jobs, or failing a job some meaningful function to perform in society. We have an ideological objection to that in both political parties. We need to rethink that ideology, because joblessness is likely to get worse and stay worse. We need a different paradigm because the old bootstraps thing is clearly not working.

    Personally, I think the era of small government is over. Whether it’s Baltimore or the Appalachians or California’s Central Valley, we are splitting ever more clearly into haves and have-nots. Pretending that the have-nots are going to be able to pull themselves up is sheer fantasy. We need a different approach.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 40 Thumb down 1

  109. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    It strains credulity. Honestly, how possible and how likely do you really think it is that Gray crushed his own larynx and nearly severed his own spinal cord?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 23 Thumb down 0

  110. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @anjin-san:

    You can’t excise legality. That said, which would you rather do, one drink or one hit of heroin?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 9

  111. ernieyeball says:

    @HarvardLaw92:..I’m not sure why I stuck around as long as I did.

    Now that you have posted 11 times after your alleged self imposed exile I suspect it might have something to do with, what did U call it?

    …self-congratulating mental masturbation…

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 2

  112. anjin-san says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    That said, which would you rather do, one drink or one hit of heroin?

    Neither, I’ve been clean and sober for 26 years.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  113. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Grewgills:

    Who’s to say what he did to himself inside that box? We have the statement of another prisoner who asserted that, at a minimum, he was violent. I see no evidence that it occurred during the arrest, and I see no evidence of “rough riding”. I see a lot of allegations that serve to validate people’s predetermined conclusions, but I’m not seeing a lot of evidence.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 16

  114. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ernieyeball:

    That opinion hasn’t changed. Frankly, this place has become more or less the left-wing equivalent of Freeperland IMO. Same devotion to orthodoxy and dogma, just at the other end of the political spectrum.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 9

  115. michael reynolds says:

    @MBunge:

    Heroin didn’t make those addicts musical and coke didn’t make those users funny.

    No, and that wasn’t my point, although I wrote it carelessly so I can understand your reading of it. I was just making the point that we should not assume every guy with a drug problem is a dead loss to humanity.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

  116. @HarvardLaw92:

    The good-faith error sanitizes culpability with regard to having made the arrest. You know what I’m arguing here.

    Heien v. North Carolina? (Again, why is the non-lawyer the one coming up with all the case law?) Again, that ruling only applies to the reasonable suspicion necessary for the initial stop, not the probable cause necessary for the subsequent arrest.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1

  117. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @michael reynolds:

    Nothing is going to work unless we get people jobs, or failing a job some meaningful function to perform in society

    Like I said before, nothing and nobody can help people who refuse to help themselves. West Baltimore today is populated by the same type of people it was populated by in the 1960s. They’re still where they are, despite hundreds of billions of dollars having been thrown at them, and you can not delete their lack of self-responsibility from that outcome.

    I’m sympathetic, but I also know that what we are doing isn’t working. It will never work as long as these people prefer to maintain their status quo.

    The people who should be doing something – people with power and money and resources and time – are busy trying to keep their taxes down and have zero interest in ensuring that the poor are safe or fed or well-policed.

    Bullshit. Maryland offers some of the most generous benefits and assistance programs in the nation. A single mom with 2 kids can bring in assistance worth over $18 an hour in addition to working minimum wage.

    But – and this is the salient point – why would she when she’s being paid a healthy subsidy? Unemployment in Sandtown is 50%. Do you really think that’s entirely because there are no jobs for these people to do?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 13

  118. Console says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    You took the “maybe he broke his own neck” story with a straight face?

    Good god, you really are a lawyer.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 3

  119. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    As much as you are accusing others here of reacting emotionally and without evidence due to their biases, it seems pretty apparent at this point that you are allowing your dislike of “those people” guide your decision making more than any of the evidence that we have thus far.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 29 Thumb down 1

  120. michael reynolds says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    Again, why is the non-lawyer the one coming up with all the case law?

    Probably because this @HarvardLaw92 is James P appropriating his name. The arguments are too “non-legal” and frankly dense to be the real guy.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 2

  121. anjin-san says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    That said, which would you rather do, one drink or one hit of heroin?

    I think it’s worth noting that I was practicing alcoholic drinking from the very first drink, and that the stuff damn near ruined my life. Do I think that heroin is more dangerous than alcohol? Nope. And a lot of the individual and societal problems associated with heroin use are downstream consequences of it’s legal status.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  122. michael reynolds says:

    @anjin-san:

    I think we’re being trolled by James P. @HarvardLaw92 argues with law and precedent and a scalpel. This guy is about 30 IQ points south and too emotional.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 3

  123. Franklin says:

    @HarvardLaw92: Sorry to see you go. I am surprised that you find the charges so incredible, but that’s what a trial is for. People are always going to have opinions based on their experience and what is currently known, and in my opinion it doesn’t look good for the officers at all. Sorry if you don’t like that opinion.
    As for the rest of your complaint, I’m sympathetic to the idea that there’s a cultural problem in many places. I don’t know what the solution is, either.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

  124. Franklin says:

    @michael reynolds: Crap, and I just replied to him. You may be onto something there.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  125. jukeboxgrad says:

    HarvardLaw92:

    If you consider that to be trolling

    I said you’re a troll because you said you’re a troll. You warned me that if I took your remarks seriously I would be “mistaking a performance for a position.” You said your goal was “to cause you and others like you to react,” and now you’re doing it again. Please proceed.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 2

  126. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @michael reynolds:

    No. It’s me. Live in Rye. Three kids. Partner at a white shoe in M&A.

    You seem thrown by the fact that I could feel this way. Point blank? These people tried to kill my nephew Monday night, so whatever sympathy or goodwill they might have had with me is gone. Done. Over.

    Anything I can do now to return the favor, I will do. If that involves helping defend these cops, then so be it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 16

  127. jukeboxgrad says:

    Stormy Dragon:

    The dramatically storming out in a huff thing doesn’t work if you keep coming back to see if people miss you yet.

    He did this before. Link. More of the same.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

  128. KM says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    We have the statement of another prisoner who asserted that, at a minimum, he was violent. I see no evidence that it occurred during the arrest, and I see no evidence of “rough riding”.

    (1) Why are you taking the word of a criminal as gospel? Didn’t just go off earlier about how untrustworthy drug dealers are and wouldn’t take their word for it ? Why is this one suddenly acceptable? How exactly was he “violent” according to this person, what actions was he taking (kicking, screaming, banging head, etc) that lead to the incident?

    (2) The medical examiner would have stated if it was self-inflicted. Seriously, the angle, force and pressure to serve a spine and fracture a larynx are pretty frigging distinctive and the direction of the break/severance would be obvious. If the handcuffed, shackled, unrestrained man managed to stand up in the middle of moving vehicle and hurl himself against something to incur such injuries instead of being caused by the police or the actual ride itself (since he couldn’t snap his own neck with bound hands and would have been free-sliding around too much to use a bench deliberately), don’t you think the ME would have put it forth to exonerate the officers? Or is he/she in on it too?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 24 Thumb down 0

  129. Turgid Jacobian says:

    @michael reynolds: I don’t know–earlier on, he said his kid was a B’more firefighter who’d been out among the chaos. So, emotional reactions are pretty understandable.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  130. jukeboxgrad says:

    he said his kid was a B’more firefighter

    Nephew.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

  131. Rafer Janders says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    We have the same shiftless, lazy people (which is what they are – uncomfortable facts …)

    Wow. The mask slips, doesn’t it?

    This is flat-out racist talk, and nothing else.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 2

  132. Rafer Janders says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    A known drug dealer with multiple convictions for narcotics trafficking standing in a drug-infested area who runs from the police justifies arrest, IMO.

    For what crime? Cite it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2

  133. Rafer Janders says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Given the choice between 6 decorated cops and one drug dealer, I know who I’m, more likely to believe.

    Actually, it’s now 6 accused felons.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 2

  134. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    How can it be racist if it’s also accurate? Have you ever spent any time in West Baltimore? I have. I speak from experience …

    Is any accurate criticism leveled at people racist, or is that simply your go-to pejorative for someone who’s saying something you dislike – but don’t seem to be trying to refute.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 10

  135. Rafer Janders says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Gray was picked up because he ran, and between his arrest history and the crime-infested nature of the area, that’s sufficient cause to arrest him.

    Bullshit. A lie. It may be reason to detain him, but for an arrest, you need an actual crime. Avoiding the police (a reasonable tactic given their thuggery) and having a criminal history are not, in themselves, crimes.

    Again: what crime was Gray arrested for? Cite it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 3

  136. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    Actually, it’s now 6 accused felons.

    We’ll see how that one pans out. The last I heard, money was already pouring in for their defense, and if I can do anything to help get them off, I will. Murder is a reach, and I suspect you know that.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7

  137. Rafer Janders says:

    @anjin-san:

    I think everyone here will stipulate that you are a talented attorney.

    Easy on that “everyone.” Having gone to the same law school as him, I will, however, stipulate that he is an attorney.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  138. James says:

    It seems that the witness has stated that what he told the police had been exaggerated http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/04/30/wjz-exclusive-the-other-man-in-the-van-with-freddie-gray-breaks-his-silence/

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

  139. jukeboxgrad says:

    Rafer Janders, you noticed that he said this:

    We have the same shiftless, lazy people

    Which is no surprise, given what he has said before. Link:

    I see these people as gaming the system in order to twist a well-meaning, but ill regulated program in order to get as much as they can get from it. They’re con artists, and they are raising another generation of con artists, who will probably end up raising con artists of their own.

    On the other hand, he later said that these words of his were just “a perfomance.” Link. So keep in mind that you are dealing with someone who is into “perfomance.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

  140. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    So it has absolutely nothing to do with the facts of the case and whether or not you think the cops gave him a rough ride that ended in his death. It is all about your emotional response and your desire to get back at people that you feel threatened a family member. Justice be damned, if getting these cops off hurts the people that tried to hurt your nephew then that’s good enough, huh?
    You seriously need to step back from this a moment and think about your positions rather than letting your anger about what happened to your nephew and your visceral dislike of poor people in Baltimore guide you.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0

  141. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    Thuggery? You spend a day in those damn neighborhoods and then get back to me about thuggery.

    They threw a concrete block at his truck. He was just trying to help them and they tried to kill him. THAT’S thuggery, friend.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 12

  142. KM says:

    @HarvardLaw92 :

    These people tried to kill my nephew Monday night, so whatever sympathy or goodwill they might have had with me is gone. Done. Over.

    And I am truly sorry about that – I suspect no one here wishes you or your family ill. We do enjoy your commentary and losing a poster makes this corner of the internet a little bit quieter. Being a firefighter is a tough gig and requires a special kind of person to keep going back day after day.

    But you’re getting completely out of whack here. If this were the courtroom, you’d need to recuse yourself before the judge tossed you out. You are clearly flustered and emotional to the point you blinding siding with a group that’s opposite to those you feel hurt your family and waiving away facts in favor of bias. You have no problems throwing your lot in with police who have very little evidence backing them up solely based on your current emotional state. Please stop, put the keyboard down, take a deep breath, and think on this:

    The nameless They you keep referring to? That’s how they may have viewed your nephew Monday. Not a person but a cog in a machine. Part of the problem, not a tear shed if something happens to him. It’s a terrible feeling, no? That your loved one is considered evil solely because of a stupid association some makes and acts out on it, putting them in danger and making their lives hell.

    I don’t care what Gray did before hand; this was a BS arrest, regs were clearly broken and a life was lost. Something went wrong here and we owe it to the citizens of Baltimore and every good cop out there to get rid of the bad ones. Good cops and firefighters do not deserve to be tarred and feathered because there are azzholes in the department. You want to protect them? Then stop with the blind loyalty and get rid of the poisonous influences within. Dirty cops don’t deserve protection from good cops and prosecutors – a criminal is a criminal, after all.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 35 Thumb down 1

  143. Rafer Janders says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    I see no evidence that it occurred during the arrest,

    That’s true, he probably left the house with a severed spine and a crushed voice box.

    and I see no evidence of “rough riding”.

    It took the cops one hour to transport Gray a distance of six blocks, during which hour they made at least one extended stop. After that one hour ride, Gray, who had walked into the van, emerged from it with a severed spine and crushed voice box. But no, there’s no evidence of it…..

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 2

  144. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Grewgills:

    then that’s good enough, huh?

    It will have to be. Where’s the justice for my nephew? The animals who tried to kill him and his fellow firefighters will never be brought to justice. Why are people so up in arms about one person who contributed nothing to society, but they seemingly couldn’t care less about firefighters? Hell, these people would probably defend and excuse their actions as well.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 15

  145. Rafer Janders says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Thuggery? You spend a day in those damn neighborhoods and then get back to me about thuggery.

    I lived in poor African-American neighborhoods for several years. Hands down, the most aggressively thuggish were the cops.

    Like I said: flat-out racist.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 2

  146. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    I do feel for you about what happened to your nephew. My brother is a fire fighter and my mom was a prosecutor. I grew up around police, prosecutors and judges, then later city attorneys and other public servants in an area of the deep South that has pretty much all of the same problems Baltimore has and a worse history. I had a fair number of friends in the poorer part of town (coincidentally also the West End), so none of this is at all foreign to me.
    Your nephew and his fellow fire fighters weren’t injured from what you said. What justice do you think he deserves at this point?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 1

  147. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    It took the cops one hour to transport Gray a distance of six blocks, during which hour they made at least one extended stop. After that one hour ride, Gray, who had walked into the van, emerged from it with a severed spine and crushed voice box. But no, there’s no evidence of it…..

    Which proves exactly what? Suggestive? Sure, but I think you know that you and I both can come up with a lot of suggestions about what happened that are equally plausible. I’m seeing a lot of circumstantial evidence, but you know where this one ends. The same place it always ends – in the jury box.

    Juries don’t care about justice. They want to assign blame, and you learned that the same place that I did.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 16

  148. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    I lived in poor African-American neighborhoods for several years. Hands down, the most aggressively thuggish were the cops.

    So it’s fair to say that your attitude towards cops is biased by your life experiences then. Mine are as well.

    Like I said: flat-out racist.

    Like I said: not when it’s accurate.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 15

  149. jukeboxgrad says:

    Number of comments he has posted since saying “I’m out of here:” 22. I think he meant ‘I’m out of here until I post my next comment.’

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 5

  150. Lit3Bolt says:

    @Grewgills:

    Because African-Americans are simultaneously super-human and super-villain. They are expected to be happy in ALL circumstances, saintly in ALL interactions, and if they are not, they acquire supernatural abilities such as hulking up to run through bullets, shooting themselves in the head while cuffed, and snapping their own neck and larynx through sheer demonic willpower alone.

    The myths of blacks in the US needs to be torn down. They are not controlled by a black Hive-mind, they do not lust for every white woman they see, they are not uncontrollable rage-machines that can break a cop in two with their bare hands, they are not solely motivated by greed and pleasure, and not all of them use drugs.

    But America believes this because America is still scared shitless of black people. More than anything, that’s an admission of racism and white guilt right there.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1

  151. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Grewgills:

    Your nephew and his fellow fire fighters weren’t injured from what you said. What justice do you think he deserves at this point?

    I didn’t say they weren’t injured. I said they eventually made it home OK.

    What justice do I think he deserves? It seems to me that cutting a working firehose when men are inside a fire and throwing a concrete block at a moving fire engine with firefighters inside certainly satisfies the elements of attempted murder. I’m more likely to be named Queen of England …

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7

  152. Turgid Jacobian says:

    @HarvardLaw92: What justice did the dead man receive?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  153. T says:

    @michael reynolds:

    Probably because this @HarvardLaw92 is James P appropriating his name.

    Plot twist: they are the same person.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  154. Turgid Jacobian says:

    Moderators, I’m stuck in the spam filer. Only one attempt should be freed.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  155. HarvardLaw92 says:

    Note: just for what it’s worth, they caught one of the guys who was cutting firehoses. Know what Miss Crusader for Justice Mosby charged him with?

    Obstructing firefighting operations, malicious destruction of property and reckless endangerment. Three GD misdemeanors. Seems pretty pale from where I’m sitting. I suppose drug dealers are more important to her than firefighters …

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 13

  156. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Turgid Jacobian:

    If he did it to himself, which is plausible, what justice does he deserve?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 11

  157. Rafer Janders says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    The animals who tried to kill him and his fellow firefighters will never be brought to justice.

    How do we know your nephew didn’t try to kill himself? It’s certainly within the bounds of probability. Maybe he cut his own firehose….

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 3

  158. Rafer Janders says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    They threw a concrete block at his truck.

    Oh no! That sounds dangerous! If it had hit him, it maybe could have severed his spine or crushed his voice box!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 2

  159. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    You mean besides the doer having been caught on video slicing the hoses? Nice try …

    I suppose it’s certainly plausible that he teleported himself out of the truck up onto the bridge, tossed the concrete block, then teleported himself back into the truck.

    No, wait, that was captured on video as well.

    You have video of what happened inside that van that we don’t know about?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 8

  160. Rafer Janders says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    I suppose drug dealers are more important to her than firefighters …

    Some prefer Scotch, some vodka, but me, I like nothing better than a fine whine…..

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

  161. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    If you think that I’m going to entertain your suggestion that the life of a scum drug dealer matters more than the life of a good person like my nephew, you can go to hell.

    Did he somehow “oppress” them too? Spare me …

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 8

  162. Rafer Janders says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    You mean besides the doer having been caught on video slicing the hoses?

    Where’s this video? I don’t see any video.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

  163. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    I see. You think it’s appropriate to target firefighters, put their lives at risk, and subsequently be charged with a misdemeanor.

    Were the firefighters in your poor neighborhood thuggish and oppressing you too? Is that why you seemingly don’t value their lives, or at the least value the life of a drug dealer more?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 10

  164. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    https www youtube com/watch?v=S8W9iw6gx40

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4

  165. Rafer Janders says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Well, again, you SAY they were targeted, but I think you know that you and I both can come up with a lot of suggestions about what happened that are equally plausible. I’m seeing a lot of unsubstantiated claims about chunks of concrete and cut firehoses, but you know where this one ends. The same place it always ends – in the jury box.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  166. Tyrell says:

    @michael reynolds: I certainly agree that drug users should not be arrested and there should be decriminalization of drug possession. There should policies that take away the street profit. Then you can put the dealers out of business. Those who are serving time for possession or using drugs should be released.
    As a child I held the F.B.I. in awe. I read about their agents and had great respect for Director Hoover, who personally went out on arrests of dangerous gang members. I thoroughly enjoy the “Criminal Minds” tv program which delves into the minds of the violent criminals.
    In my life I have known policemen who were well respected members of the community, respected by all races. Why was this ? They took seriously their duty to serve the people. Most of them never drew their gun! They knew many of the citizens by name. They did everything from helping ladies cross the streets to rescuing cats. In summer they would get the fire depts. to turn on the hydrants so kids could cool off in the summer. I also remembered the time a policeman gave a ride to an older lady who had bags of groceries. They patrolled on foot. They did not wear all kinds of riot gear or military stuff. That was the police I grew up with.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  167. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    What other plausible explanation can you offer for cutting a firehose when firefighters are clearly inside a burning building?

    The thug felt like he needed a shower? By all means, impress me.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 8

  168. Rafer Janders says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    What other plausible explanation can you offer for cutting a firehose when firefighters are clearly inside a burning building?

    You have video of them inside that burning building?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  169. KM says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    what justice does he deserve?

    It’s becoming pretty clear you don’t want justice – you want blood. Vengeance is not justice. Bitterness does not lead to truth and two wrongs don’t make a right. You are a reasonable adult – you know this.

    That rage your feeling is what Gray’s family is feeling right now; someone hurt someone they love and the law is doing little about it. I’m sure Gray’s family is wondering why murder one isn’t on the table while you’re angry assault or higher isn’t in the cards. Can they prove, in a court of law in front of a jury that you previously stated only wants to cast blame, anything higher then what is currently charged with knowing they might skate if overcharged? How will you feel if they walk when a jury doesn’t agree it fits the criteria of attempted manslaughter?

    I totally understand your anger and frustration. I’ve had my wrist broken in the line of duty at a previous job with absolutely nothing done to the offender – a goddamn knife fight I broke up to my detriment and several police reports. Dangerous jobs are hard on loved ones and it’s incredibly irritating to this day I never got the resolution I needed and eventually I just got a new job.

    But Harvard? I lived. Your nephew lived. It could have been a hell of a lot worse. Breathe. Have a drink. Do some yoga if that’s your thing. Go spend time with your nephew or give him a call. The ass will do time, maybe not as much as you’d like, but something is better then nothing. You’re starting to see enemies here where there are none. Rafer’s needling you because the arguments you’d been making up-thread can be easily turned on you, trying to point out your feelings are clouding your debate. Parroting your own words back to get you to see what you are actually saying. That you’re falling for it is a sign it might be time to call it a night…..

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 23 Thumb down 1

  170. T says:

    @Tyrell:

    That was the police I grew up with.

    so tell me, what did aunt bee’s pie REALLY taste like…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

  171. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    I suppose the firehose just drug itself inside the building?

    Still waiting for that video of what happened inside the van, or is asking for it somehow “oppressing” you?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 8

  172. Turgid Jacobian says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    No proof, fellow.

    But, at a minimum: not to be left unrestrained in a dangerous moving vehicle, for starters. They have a reason for their policy. Violating their policy is knowingly subjecting someone in their power to EASILY AVOIDABLE AND POTENTIALLY MORTAL avoidable danger.

    I guess that’s too much for you to ask of the brave men in blue?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  173. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @KM:

    and the law is doing little about it. I’m sure Gray’s family is wondering why murder one isn’t on the table

    Say again? Six officers have been charged in his death, at least one of them with murder.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5

  174. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Turgid Jacobian:

    I’d call it negligence. Perhaps even reckless disregard. I might even call it manslaughter IF the prosecutor offered it up as a deal. I wouldn’t call it murder.

    I have my doubts that the jury will either. This will almost certainly not go to trial in Baltimore City.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5

  175. KM says:

    @HarvardLaw92 :
    Murder in the second is the highest.

    I’m not saying I agree or disagree with the charges – I’m saying the family is probably wondering why murder one isn’t on the table since they, like yourself, want the max sentencing done for the highest charge possible.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  176. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @KM:

    The ass will do time, maybe not as much as you’d like, but something is better then nothing

    It’s actually unlikely that he’ll serve any time, given the statutes in question, which is why it is such a slap in the face.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6

  177. jukeboxgrad says:

    they caught one of the guys who was cutting firehoses

    Why are you suggesting there was more than one cutter? Why are you suggesting that more than one hose was cut?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 2

  178. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @KM:

    I’m sure their lawyer can explain 2-201 to them. I’m capable of reading 2-206 on my own.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6

  179. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ jukeboxgrad

    Because hoses were slashed all over the city, and I can produce as many firefighters as you’d like to attest to that fact. Having been on scene, I think they’re probably reliable witnesses – and juries love them.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

  180. Turgid Jacobian says:

    @HarvardLaw92: I basically agree with you on that if the defendants are private citizens, and expect you’re right that murder charges don’t stick. But morally I expect those who have real power to inflict violence and death in my name to be held to a higher standard.

    That immunity standards exist to render their civil responsibility less than that of the average person offends me deeeply.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  181. Cd6 says:

    I have no idea why y’all continue to attempt rational argument with “they’re all thugs” hardboard law guy. Anybody who is willing to believe “maybe he crushed his own larynx while handicapped in the back of the van” is just too stupid to argue woth

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 24 Thumb down 1

  182. jukeboxgrad says:

    hoses were slashed all over the city

    Citation needed.

    I can produce as many firefighters as you’d like to attest to that fact

    Any number greater than zero would be a good start.

    I’m pretty sure this promise is as solid as another one you made recently: “I’m out of here.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 3

  183. Bob @ Youngstown says:

    Some of you may consider this off topic, but the conditions in Baltimore (and many other urban communities) remind me of my days of working with the general population on the Indian Reservations in southwestern South Dakota.

    80% unemployment, poor schools, crushing dispair, and little hope for their future, a tribal police force that was feared because they were bullies. It was better to sit at “home” and drink yourself to death. For teenage girls, they would intentionally get pregnate, not so much to get whatever governmental assistance was possible, but to have some (baby) who loved them unconditionally and the child would establish their self-worth. For the guys, they would join gangs, for the purpose of proving some self-worth.

    You can claim that “we’ve wasted millions by pumping aid” into Baltimore (just as is done on the Rez), but it’s all for naught because it’s not what was really needed.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

  184. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Turgid Jacobian:

    The standards regarding civil liability don’t so much subject them to a lesser penalty so much as they require a higher standard of proof. I think that’s fair, given that without them we’d essentially have no police forces at all. Nobody would do the job.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5

  185. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Bob @ Youngstown:

    because it’s not what was really needed.

    What is needed?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  186. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Cd6:

    “they’re all thugs”

    What is your preferred term for people who loot stores, burn down buildings, set vehicles ablaze, throw concrete blocks at firefighters and rocks at cops, slash working hoselines and generally engage in mayhem? Misunderstood?

    Thugs seems accurate enough to me, but by all means please let me know what the PC term is for these people so I might avoid offending your delicate sensibilities.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 10

  187. Turgid Jacobian says:

    @HarvardLaw92: Okay, interesting: thanks.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  188. jukeboxgrad says:

    Paul L.:

    Support the Federal Law Enforcement Bill of Rights

    When even someone like Jenos notices that you cited a parody with a straight face, then you are in special territory.

    You will have to try harder if you expect to get as much attention as our more prolific troll.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

  189. bk says:

    @HarvardLaw92: Maybe you should try that Cornell Law professor guy’s blog. Very intelligent commentary there. Check it out. He even spells out the name of his blog phonetically. (And he makes me ashamed that we are in the same profession).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  190. M13 says:

    @Cd6: He’s a genocidal racist, after all “they” threw a rock at his “nephew” don’t ya know.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2

  191. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    It really burns you that not everybody is falling over themselves feeling sorry for these rioters, doesn’t it?

    Typical bleeding heart crap. You aren’t doing these people any favors by paternalistically patronizing them to assuage your own sense of guilt. But hey, why not I guess.

    Nobody being responsible for anything seems to be the way of the world these days, so I’ll play along with you. Yes, they live in poverty while largely doing nothing of their own volition to change their situation.Yes, they exist in what seems like a permanent bubble of feelings of entitlement stemming from wrongs few of them ever personally had to experience. Yes, they make choices that perpetuate their cycle of poverty while being generously supported by the state.

    But none of that is their fault. They’re blameless, because blaming them for anything offends Jukeboxgrad’s sense of propriety, right?

    I think “troll” has become your new term for “someone who says something that offends me”.

    I’m underwhelmed …

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 5 Thumb down 19

  192. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @M13:

    So I should just look askance and say “tsk tsk, yes, they tossed a concrete block at my nephew’s fire truck and slashed his hoseline while he was in a burning building, but they’re misunderstood and they have been “oppressed” (WTFever …), so it’s OK if they blow off a little steam. If he gets hurt, well that’s just his bad luck. He should have ducked.”

    Is that how it works?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 9

  193. jukeboxgrad says:

    I think “troll” has become your new term for “someone who says something that offends me”.

    One more time: I said you’re a troll because you said you’re a troll.

    hoses were slashed all over the city

    I am aware of one cutter cutting one hose. Is pointing out that you like to make shit up enough to get you to finally make good on your promise to disappear?

    I can produce as many firefighters as you’d like to attest to that fact

    Still waiting.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 3

  194. jukeboxgrad says:

    and slashed his hoseline while he was in a burning building

    You presented a video of one cutter cutting one hose. Your nephew happened to be in that exact building?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

  195. Anonne says:

    HL92 proves Conor’s point.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  196. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    As I said, many hoses were slashed. Firefighters make excellent witnesses in court.

    Interestingly, that’s exactly one more video than you’ve produced (i.e. zero …) of what happened inside that van – but you’re SURE about what happened in there because – well, why are you so sure about what happened in that van. .

    Remind me how again? Do you have ESP? Did you see it via osmosis? 😀

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 5

  197. jukeboxgrad says:

    Except that HL92 pretends to not be a conservative.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4

  198. jukeboxgrad says:

    many hoses were slashed

    You said this:

    I can produce as many firefighters as you’d like to attest to that fact

    I guess you meant to say ‘I can produce them but I won’t.’

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  199. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Anonne:

    I do take them seriously. I’m just tired of them being held up as a banner which the cop haters of the world use to indict the system as a whole.

    I’m also, despite being center-left, not all that fond of bleeding heart save the world types. They annoy me.

    Both seem to have showed up in abundance on these Baltimore threads.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 8

  200. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    Except that HL92 pretends to not be a conservative.

    To you, anybody to the right of Bernie Sanders is a conservative. You’ll excuse me if I’m not interested.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 8

  201. jukeboxgrad says:

    To you, anybody to the right of Bernie Sanders is a conservative.

    Anonne thinks you are a conservative, and I pointed out correctly that you claim you are not. Two minutes later, you confirmed what I said. I’m sorry this annoys you.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

  202. jukeboxgrad says:

    It appears that one person cut one hose. Who else gratuitously turned that into plural, besides our friend HL92, based on no evidence whatsoever? Twitchy (“protesters”), People (“rioters”) and CNN (“rioters”). That darn liberal media.

    But not even Breitbart, Twitchy or Rush is claiming that “many hoses were slashed.” We only hear that claim from the person who just described himself as “center-left.” Interesting how that works.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  203. winfield scott says:

    @Rafer Janders: Bravo!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2

  204. jukeboxgrad says:

    HarvardLaw92:

    that’s exactly one more video than you’ve produced (i.e. zero …) of what happened inside that van – but you’re SURE about what happened in there

    I’ll wait patiently while you cite my comment where I made a claim about “what happened inside that van.” Once again, you are making shit up. That’s what you did when you said this:

    hoses were slashed all over the city

    You have a pattern of making worthless statements. But my favorite one is this:

    I’m out of here

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 4

  205. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    I claim to be what I’ve always claimed to be – center-left. I’m sorry if I don’t pass your purity test, but frankly, as I said, I couldn’t give any less of a shit.

    I have been told by my nephew, and others working with him, that multiple hoselines were slashed. I have no reason to doubt him. We’ve already established that slashing occurred, so what is it with you? Putting firefighters at risk is only meaningful if it happens at more than one location? Are you asserting that it’s OK since it was (in your mind) “only” one hoseline?

    Now, back to that question you keep avoiding – You’re convinced that you know exactly what happened inside that van. On what evidence do you base this sense of certainty? You’ve certainly seen no video of what happened inside it – as none exists.

    So we have me asserting that hoselines were slashed, and the video backs up my assertion that slashing occured. Jukeboxgrad asserts that aggressive driving broke Gray’s neck, but has no video to back up the assertion.

    Note: anytime you want to admit that this is personal with you and involves nothing more than your sense of dislike for me, that’d be ok too.

    But you still don’t know what happened inside that van. I’m betting this gets shipped out to Howard or Harford for trial. Three guesses as to which one of our viewpoints those jury pools have more in common with?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 8

  206. jukeboxgrad says:

    I have been told by my nephew, and others working with him, that multiple hoselines were slashed.

    And that’s why there are this many media reports “that multiple hoselines were slashed:” zero.

    Why is it that your “nephew, and others working with him” are giving this important information only to you, and to no one else? Maybe they think no one in the press would have any interest in hearing this important information?

    You’re convinced that you know exactly what happened inside that van.

    One more time: I’ll wait patiently while you cite my comment where I made a claim about “what happened inside that van.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 4

  207. jukeboxgrad says:

    Jukeboxgrad asserts that aggressive driving broke Gray’s neck

    Where did I do that?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

  208. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    So what is your theory about how Gray’s neck got broken? By all means, lay it out.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 7

  209. jukeboxgrad says:

    So what is your theory about how Gray’s neck got broken?

    You said this:

    Jukeboxgrad asserts that aggressive driving broke Gray’s neck

    I can’t find the part of your comment where you explain why you said I said something I never said.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

  210. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    And that’s why there are this many media reports “that multiple hoselines were slashed:” zero.

    So you are calling my nephew a liar?

    Where’s your proof that it didn’t happen? The media has largely been falling over themselves sniffling about the poor oppressed rioters. I’m not surprised they don’t seem to care about reporting anything that discounts that narrative.

    But, again, as we have seen, slashing DID occur. Are you prepared to state with certainty that only one hose line was slashed? If so, on what evidence do you base this?

    We had a multi-car pileup near my town the other day. No media reported on it. Does that mean that it didn’t happen?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 7

  211. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    No, you seem certain that the police deliberately broke Gray’s neck / caused it to be broken. If that is inaccurate, then mea culpa, but as I requested, lay out your theory of the events in question. If you believe that mine is wrong, then supply your own. You’ve made it clear that you dislike both me and my proposed sequence of events, so supply your own. Do something besides whine about me being a meanie.

    And remember, my guys are presumed innocent. I don’t have to prove anything. That’s Mosby’s job. All their legal teams have to do is put Gray on trial – which will be considerably easier once the cases get moved out of Baltimore City (as they almost certainly will).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 7

  212. jukeboxgrad says:

    So we have me asserting that hoselines were slashed, and the video backs up my assertion that slashing occured

    You said this:

    hoses were slashed all over the city

    Your video shows one cutter cutting one hose. Your claim that “hoses were slashed all over the city” is fiction. You are a prolific bullshitter.

    So you are calling my nephew a liar?

    I’m calling you a liar. Here’s an example of just one lie you told recently:

    Jukeboxgrad asserts that aggressive driving broke Gray’s neck

    Making shit up is a habit of yours.

    Where’s your proof that it didn’t happen?

    I’m surprised that Harvard never taught you anything about the concept of proving a negative.

    The media has largely been falling over themselves sniffling about the poor oppressed rioters.

    Yes, there is no such thing as a right-wing media that would be drooling over a credible report that “hoses were slashed all over the city.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

  213. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    So, should we take the above as “I have no theory of the crime” or “I simply refuse to lay out a theory of the crime because I’m more interested in attacking someone I dislike”?

    As I said, even if only one hose line is slashed, does that not bother you? Are you prepared to go on record stating that you believe it was wrong, and the person(s) who did it should be charged with attempted murder and belongs in prison?

    Or are you one of those people who believes it was justified, and the person(s) who did it should not be charged. (I have actually heard this argument from people …)

    Christ man, take a position that amounts to more than you disliking me. You’ve more than made that clear. Make a fricking argument …

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7

  214. jukeboxgrad says:

    So, should we take the above as “I have no theory of the crime” or “I simply refuse to lay out a theory of the crime because I’m more interested in attacking someone I dislike”?

    Neither, but I understand that you just can’t stop trying to put words into someone else’s mouth.

    take a position

    I did. You said this:

    hoses were slashed all over the city

    You lied.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

  215. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    You are disparaging an entire community of tens of thousands and a protest that was for over a week entirely non violent made up of thousands over the actions of a few hundred. You have repeatedly called 10s of thousands of people shiftless and lazy based on your personal prejudices. You have repeatedly characterized thousands of people as thugs based on the actions of 10% or less of their number.
    It is crystal clear at this point that you have absolutely no interest in justice for Gray, for the protesters, for the people of West Baltimore, or for the police that are supposed to serve them. Your singular concern is vengeance for the act of a few people that may have put your nephew at risk. You seem to want that with such passion that you could not care less if anyone else receives anything approaching justice. You simply don’t care what happened to Gray or if the officers deliberately gave him a ‘rough ride’ that led to his death. You do care that getting the officers off will be a poke in the eye to the community that you have a visceral hate on for right now. That is the “justice” you want. I hope that after some reflection that you will realize that this has been a low point for you.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 28 Thumb down 0

  216. jukeboxgrad says:

    Your singular concern is vengeance for the act of a few people that may have put your nephew at risk.

    I see no reason to believe that he actually has a nephew. I also see no reason to believe that he has actually stepped foot in either Baltimore or Harvard Law School.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

  217. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    You made a positive claim that fire hoses were slashed all over the city. As evidence you provided a youtube video of exactly one hose being slashed. If you were on the other side of this debate you would rightly point out that is a laughable attempt at proving the first assertion.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  218. T says:

    this is getting good.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  219. Grewgills says:

    @michael reynolds:
    Nope, he’s just so mired in his own emotions that he is arguing like mr p.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  220. jukeboxgrad says:

    a laughable attempt

    Yes, but probably not more laughable than this:

    I’m out of here

    Or this:

    Unless he injured himself, which is not outside the realm of possibility.

    Anyway, laughter is appropriate. After all, he said that what he does is “a performance.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

  221. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Grewgills:

    No, I am making two points.

    1) Rioters are thugs. They deserve no compassion, no consideration of their grievances and no quarter. Baltimore handled this sort of thing better in 1968. This latest episode was about SRB getting herself reelected and trying not to look bad on television.

    2) West Baltimore, among many Baltimore neighborhoods, is populated by people who are far removed from slavery, far removed from redlining, far removed from segregation and far removed from Jim Crow. They enjoy one of the most generous assistance packages available in the country and live in a city with one of the highest spending per pupil rates in the country. Despite these facts, and despite hundreds of billions of dollars having been expended on their welfare over the last 50 or so years, they remain mired in poverty. They still have a 67% unwed birth rate. They still have a 60% single parent household rate. Parts of Baltimore have a 50% unemployment rate.

    At what point does responsibility for those outcomes begin to attach to them? At what point do we accept that throwing money at the problem has done nothing but grow the problem? At what point do we dare demand that they accept some degree of responsibility for their own futures?

    I have respect for anyone who works hard to better themselves, and there are many in those neighborhoods trying to do so. Them I’ll help in any way I can. What I do not respect is people justifying laziness by holding up the umbrella of racism and calling themselves oppressed.

    Immigrants from other countries come here and face the same disadvantages, if not more, and yet they thrive. They aren’t burning down their own GD neighborhoods. It’s just one group. Why is that?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 10

  222. jukeboxgrad says:

    Blah, blah, blah. You said this:

    hoses were slashed all over the city

    You’re a liar.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  223. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    They again. One fuc/ing person allegedly threw a piece of concrete at a fire truck. Another one person cut a hose. Now they, which apparently means either all of West Baltimore or all of the protesters, tried to kill your nephew. The entire community are thugs. The entire protest are thugs intent on killing fire fighters.
    Throwing a rock at a truck is attempted murder. Cuffing a man, sitting him on a narrow bench, failing to belt him in* is at worst reckless disregard in your world. The latter is ok though because… thug and drugs.
    Jesus man, can logic reach anywhere inside your head at this point?
    @HarvardLaw92:
    On point one, you have not until this post distinguished between residents of WB, protesters (the vast majority of whom are and were peaceful), and the rioters. You have had nothing but insults to cast in their direction.

    *in direct breach of policy because it can end in seriously injured or dead people

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  224. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Grewgills:

    It’s many things. I’m enraged about the attacks on firefighters. No argument there. Given the opportunity, I’d cheerfully throw the switch myself. The fact that the people responsible for this will likely never see the inside of a cell is beyond comprehension.

    I’ve also been getting progressively more and more annoyed of late about the direction of the discussion around here. Far left wingers, especially the smug paternalistic variety, annoy me as much, if not more, than far right wingers. Cop haters positively infuriate me. Consider this sort of my way of flipping them off.

    My position on that one is call a Crip when your house is being robbed – see how that one works out for you. These people do a job that none of us would do – and face things that no one should see – on a daily basis. They deserve more than this baying for their blood mentality that is oozing up from the ground.

    I can tell you this much – convicting all six of these officers won’t change a single thing about West Baltimore. It’s beyond fixing at this point.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 8

  225. PT says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Oh ffs. Bye already.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

  226. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Grewgills:

    One fuc/ing person allegedly threw a piece of concrete at a fire truck

    Not allegedly. https /www youtube com/watch?v=9G6bJp53L2g

    Throwing a rock at a truck is attempted murder

    Not according to Marilyn Mosby …

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3

  227. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @PT:

    Nah, I think I’ll stick around and voice a more dissenting opinion than I have in the past from now on. This mutual masturbation society needs a little shaking up.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3

  228. jukeboxgrad says:

    I think I’ll stick around

    Until the next time you say this:

    I’m out of here

    We’ve seen this movie before.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 2

  229. PT says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    That’s fine my man. But next time your opening move shouldn’t be announcing your exit. It opens you up for deserved ridicule. And then there’s the hateful racist stuff. But by all means … Dissent.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0

  230. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @PT:

    I honestly wouldn’t have returned, but this:

    I think it’s more a road to serfdom thing. DA’s that don’t toe the police line get trashed as “soft on crime” in elections, so non-capturered prosecutors never get promoted and are eventually constructively dismissed. Eventually only the true-believers are left.

    pissed me off enough to come back. I still think it’s a losing proposition and this place is unavoidably an echo chamber at this point, but at least it might be amusing.

    Again, since when is making accurate, but uncomfortable, assertions racist? Know what I think is racist? The paternalistic attitude towards these people displayed by many on here which presumes that they have to be helped because they’re incapable of doing anything for themselves.

    I’m pointing to 50 years of failed policies, dramatically failed policies, and saying “the emperor has no clothes”. It’s time to try something else. The folks invested in the emperor’s garments don’t like that. They’d rather buy him more invisible cloaks so they can congratulate themselves on their magnanimity and feel swell.

    The problem is that he’s still naked …

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 13

  231. humanoid.panda says:

    @HarvardLaw92: Re: all your contributions on this thread:
    I grew up In Israel. Between the time I turned 18 and the time I turned 28 and emigrated ,the following things happened, in rough chronological order:
    * A youth hostel I was staying at was hit by a rocket shot from Lebanon.
    * My best friend from junior high was killed in a bus bomb.
    * So did the brother of an ex-girlfriend
    * And a brother of another close friend
    * My parents house was hit by another rocket, which would have killed my sister if she was not out working.
    * My brother got hit by a bullet that ricocheted off his helmet in Gaza.

    This doesn’t make me unique in any way: in fact, as Israelis go, I am lucky, having lost no close family or friends.

    Doe this mean that, like my fellow Israelis, I should have voted for Bibi and his “kill the brutes” coalition partners?

    If not, why not?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 0

  232. humanoid.panda says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    1) Rioters are thugs. They deserve no compassion, no consideration of their grievances and no quarter. Baltimore handled this sort of thing better in 1968. This latest episode was about SRB getting herself reelected and trying not to look bad on television.

    No quarter? Seriously, you are basically advocating for policing much more brutal than the American army did in Iraq- or the Israeli army in Palestine?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  233. Tillman says:

    I think I’ll just leave The Case for Reparations here.

    I was going to quote the last bit about how the subprime financing crisis hit Baltimore pretty bad due to how they marketed subprime loans to black people (even if they would qualify for prime!), but I’ll not bother and link the whole thing

    After reading this thread, fairly certain either none of you are lawyers, or you’re all horrible lawyers.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 0

  234. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @humanoid.panda:

    No, I am saying that the proper response to a riot is not to stand back and let it happen. The proper response is to bring it to an end as quickly as possible and as forcefully as necessary. That was not done until it was far too late, primarily IMO because Baltimore’s mayor was more worried about how she’d look on TV than she was with doing her job.

    When you have an active riot and you dodge calls from the governor for 2 1/2 hours, as she did, you are playing politics. That was inexcusable.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4

  235. jukeboxgrad says:

    I honestly wouldn’t have returned, but this … pissed me off enough to come back.

    That’s hilarious, because when you “returned” (shortly after saying “I’m out of here”) you proceeded to post roughly 60 comments that neglected to reference the comment that supposedly “pissed [you] off enough to come back.” It pissed you off so much that you forgot to say anything about it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 2

  236. jukeboxgrad says:

    and you dodge calls from the governor for 2 1/2 hours, as she did

    Another lie from a serial liar.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

  237. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    Another lie from a serial liar.

    Your little tiff with me is getting boring. You don’t like me. I assure you the feeling is mutual. Move on …

    I suppose The Baltimore Sun and Maryland’s governor are lying now as well?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3

  238. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Tillman:

    Caveat emptor.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3

  239. jukeboxgrad says:

    I suppose The Baltimore Sun and Maryland’s governor are lying now as well?

    The Baltimore Sun did not make a claim. The Republican governor made a claim, and his claim is unsupported, and even his claim is not a claim that the mayor was ‘dodging’ his calls.

    But surely you also heard this from your nephew, right?

    Move on

    You’re confused. The one who promised to leave is you.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 3

  240. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    So we can chalk that one as “Jukeboxgrad believes that the Governor of Maryland is a liar too”.

    Is that how it works? Anybody who disagrees with you or says something that you dislike is a liar? I imagine you must spend a great deal of time attacking people.

    Or perhaps that’s why you spend so much time here – you like echo chambers.

    I know – maybe she was in the bathroom for 2 hours! Maybe none of aides told her that the governor was calling – repeatedly. I mean, it’s just the governor, right? Nothing important … 😀

    You’re a piece of work …

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 7

  241. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @n Jukeboxgrad

    You’re confused. The one who promised to leave is you.

    Consider that rescinded. At this point I’ll cheerfully stick around just to be a personal pain in your ass and see how long you can keep up this tantrum.

    Oh, and just for kicks – you know who’s responsible for people getting crappy mortgages? The nimrods who signed them. Feel free to explode.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 8

  242. jukeboxgrad says:

    So we can chalk that one as “Jukeboxgrad believes that the Governor of Maryland is a liar too”.

    The liar is you, because the claim he made is not the claim you made. You also need to explain why you said “the Baltimore Sun” supports your claim. They don’t. They only reported what the governor said.

    Maybe none of aides told her that the governor was calling

    Earlier you said this:

    Unless he injured himself, which is not outside the realm of possibility.

    If it’s plausible that a man wearing handcuffs figured out how to break his own neck, then it’s also plausible that “none of aides told her that the governor was calling.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

  243. michael reynolds says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    If this is really you then I’m disappointed. When I was in my 20’s my wife was pistol-whipped by a black man in an attempted rape. I went a bit ape shit for an hour or two but then I got a grip. And I was a 25 year-old waiter not a middle-aged lawyer. And I didn’t see it on TV, or hear about it later, I heard her scream and saw the blood.

    Is this really the worst sh!t that’s happened to you?

    This is an overreaction on your part and I suspect you’ll be sorry for it when you pause and reflect. Because I have to tell you, you are subverting your own case. You’re denigrating people who’ve generally experienced far, far more trauma and fear in their lives than you have in this unfortunate incident. You’re coming off like a sheltered rich kid who never took a fist in the teeth before, while sneering at people with a tenth of your resources and ten times your bad breaks.

    You’re not making sense, you’re not arguing rationally, you sound fwcking drunk. Not only are you irrational, you’re flailing, you’re missing facts, you’re making logic errors and having holes poked in you by people you’d normally handle. You’re coming off weak.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 32 Thumb down 1

  244. Matt says:

    Now I’m a simpleton and a non lawyer so I could use some help here.

    Is Harvardlaw92 really saying that he believes that Gray intentionally injured himself in an incredibly painful and fatal manner? IF so could someone explain to me why someone would do such a thing when they weren’t high out of their mind on pcp?

    Also is Harvardlaw92 really advocating that we should not care because Gray had a prior criminal record? That we should wait till the police kill an upstanding member of society before doing anything?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 1

  245. jukeboxgrad says:

    I could use some help here

    It’s not complicated. He’s a troll. One way we know is that he said so.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3

  246. HarvardLaw92 says:

    Interesting. Most people would think that when she “did not return his repeated phone calls for more than two hours”, she had a reason.

    So the Baltimore Sun is in the business of repeating unsubstantiated rumors? Earlier you were holding media coverage up as a surety. Now you are asserting that it can’t be relied on. Which is it?

    If it’s plausible that a man wearing handcuffs figured out how to break his own neck, then it’s also plausible that “none of aides told her that the governor was calling.”

    Because his head and his body were restrained and completely immobile, right? As you have admitted, you have no video of what happened, so it’s possible that he slammed his own head against something in a fit of rage.

    I’d be more likely to believe SRB if she wasn’t also refusing to respond to the governor’s assertion. Could that be because she knows she’d get thrown under the bus if she tried to lie?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 10

  247. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Matt:

    Is Harvardlaw92 really saying that he believes that Gray intentionally injured himself in an incredibly painful and fatal manner?

    No, he is saying that it is POSSIBLE that Gray intentionally injured himself, and that possibility introduces reasonable doubt if you can sell it to a jury. Remember, Mosby has to prove her case. All the defense team has to do is muddy the water and put Gray on trial. This is especially relevant given the overwhelming likelihood that the cases will be moved to another county for trial. Helpful hint – those counties are quite different demographically from Baltimore City.

    Also is Harvardlaw92 really advocating that we should not care because Gray had a prior criminal record? That we should wait till the police kill an upstanding member of society before doing anything?

    No, he isn’t. He’s saying that the victim wasn’t a choirboy, and at least one person on the jury is likely to care about that. Maryland requires unanimous verdicts by constitutional mandate unless waived by the defendant (which none of them will be dumb enough to do), and you only need one.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 14

  248. jukeboxgrad says:

    Most people would think that when she “did not return his repeated phone calls for more than two hours”, she had a reason.

    Except that we don’t actually know that she “did not return his repeated phone calls for more than two hours.” We only know that the Republican governor made this claim, and that the claim is unsupported. And even if it’s true that she “did not return his repeated phone calls for more than two hours,” we don’t know that the reason is ‘dodge,’ because that’s not the only possible reason.

    So the Baltimore Sun is in the business of repeating unsubstantiated rumors?

    They are in the business of reporting what people say. They reported what the governor said. You claimed they did more than that. That’s because you’re a liar.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 3

  249. Tillman says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Oh, and just for kicks – you know who’s responsible for people getting crappy mortgages? The nimrods who signed them.

    Society, in its infinite wisdom, decided Wells Fargo was at fault to the tune of millions of dollars they had to provide to defrauded signatories, but whatever. Your views are well-known.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 21 Thumb down 0

  250. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    What I saw in that video was something being thrown at the truck that turned into a cloud of dust as soon as it hit the front of the truck. Have you seen cinder blocks before? Have you seen cinder blocks hit with force before? Here is a video of a cinder block being hit with 5000lbs of force. Note how it doesn’t disintegrate into a puff of powder. What was thrown at that fire truck was not a cinder block. Even if that were a cinder block (which by appearances it was not) the most damage it would have possibly done to a speeding fire truck would be to either damage the front grill and perhaps the radiator or spiderweb part of the windshield. It would not have penetrated the windshield. None of the firemen in that truck had their lives put in danger by that thrown whatever it was. It was a bad act worthy of condemnation, but it was not attempted murder. The fact that you said you would gleefully throw the switch (kill) the person who did this is not indicative of someone looking for justice. The officers you want to defend pro bono at a bare minimum recklessly disregarded department policy by cuffing the hands and feet of Gray and placing him on a thin bench in the back of a van without strapping him in before driving at least 30 minutes back to the station. The fact that you want to work to get them off with no punishment doesn’t speak to a desire for justice. This all speaks to either a profound lack of empathy and the desire for blood from anyone who you feel did you or yours wrong or of another ‘performance’ to rile up people you don’t like. Neither of those speak well of you. Alternately you are just too emotionally tied up in this at the moment to be rational. I’m hoping for the latter.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1

  251. Matt says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    No, he isn’t. He’s saying that the victim wasn’t a choirboy, and at least one person on the jury is likely to care about that

    So you’re appealing to emotion with that and since those on the jury are human there’s at least one person who it’ll effect and thus the case is “won”. That’s a fascinating piece of information. I keep getting summoned for jury duty so I guess at some point I’ll see this in person.

    I find it disheartening the way you slander whole areas of people for the actions of the few. I’m in a poor area that seems to be in a similar vein to your descriptions. I along with quite a few other people here are currently trying to pull ourselves out of this poverty. It just saddens me that despite all my effort and my good record all it takes is one or two idiots on my block to get me hit with the same brush.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  252. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Tillman:

    Wells agreed to settle. Society decided nothing. Wells decided that it was cheaper in the long run in terms of financial cost and its public image to make it go away.

    You’re correct though about my views. Nobody in this subprime mess signed a mortgage with a gun to their head. If they’re guilty of being stupid and gullible, whose fault is that?

    You have to love people who ostensibly can afford a mortgage, but can’t afford a fricking attorney to explain to them what they are signing. The last I heard, Legal Aid is free …

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 11

  253. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Matt:

    So you’re appealing to emotion with that and since those on the jury are human there’s at least one person who it’ll effect and thus the case is “won”.

    My job is to defend the interests of my clients regardless of their guilt. If I know they are guilty, it limits what I do in pursuit of that defense, but that’s it. Justice is a consideration for the jury.

    I find it disheartening the way you slander whole areas of people for the actions of the few.

    I’m simply asking difficult questions which these folks do not like. Is everyone in West Baltimore et al lazy? No, but I’ll wager it’s a larger percentage than these good folk here want to admit to themselves. As I said, I’ll gladly help anyone who is trying to help themselves, but I have no use for someone whose purpose in life is to game the system in order to avoid having to accept responsibility for their own life. I grew up in Baltimore, and I can say with some specificity based on that history of direct observation of and experience with the city that the latter category of people is also a larger percentage than the good folk here want to admit to themselves.

    I’m willing to draw that distinction. The folks here seem offended by the suggestion that anybody there be held accountable for their own failures, and frankly, that offends me.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 8

  254. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    No, he is saying that it is POSSIBLE that Gray intentionally injured himself…

    Earlier I asked

    Grewgills says:
    Friday, May 1, 2015 at 20:22
    @HarvardLaw92:
    Do you really think it at all likely that Gray crushed his own trachea and nearly severed his own spine, or do you just think you are a good enough attorney to convince a jury of that?

    To which you responded.

    HarvardLaw92 says:
    Friday, May 1, 2015 at 20:38
    @Grewgills:

    Both …

    You have said more than that it was possible. You said it was likely and that you could convince a jury of that. The latter seems much more important to you and from your commentary here the past couple of days it seems the reason is spite. Spite is what is driving you, not any sense of justice or decency. You are acting like a spoiled child hurt for the first time. On the bright side whenever anyone asks what unquestioned privilege looks like I can point them to you in this thread.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

  255. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Grewgills:

    Again, the video is what was available. I have no reason to believe that my nephew either doesn’t know what a cinder block looks like or has any reason to lie to me about his truck having been hit by one. I’m really not going to debate that point any further.

    The officers you want to defend pro bono at a bare minimum recklessly disregarded department policy by cuffing the hands and feet of Gray and placing him on a thin bench in the back of a van without strapping him in before driving at least 30 minutes back to the station. The fact that you want to work to get them off with no punishment doesn’t speak to a desire for justice.

    I suspect they’ll be convicted of something (although an exoneration is entirely possible), but it won’t remotely be murder. I’m fine with that. Again, justice is a concern of the jury. I think they are being made out to be scapegoats with charges that are disproportionate to whatever they may have done, ergo I’m going to (if they indeed desire my assistance) help them.

    This all speaks to either a profound lack of empathy and the desire for blood from anyone who you feel did you or yours wrong

    The Gray side of this equation has more than enough empathy to go around. I think it fitting that these officers, and by association all the other officers and firefighters who have to deal with the crap reality of Baltimore’s situation day in and day out, deserve some empathy too. In any case, they’ll be well represented regardless of who ends up driving.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 9

  256. jukeboxgrad says:

    Grewgills:

    You have said more than that it was possible. You said it was likely

    Expecting him to tell one story is expecting too much. The stories keep changing. There are many examples, but the simplest one is this:

    I’m out of here … I think I’ll stick around

    When someone makes it clear that they don’t expect to be taken seriously it’s a mistake to take them seriously.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  257. anjin-san says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    someone whose purpose in life is to game the system

    When I lived in San Anselmo, one of our police captains retired with full disability from “job stress” – I mean living in San An is kinda like living in Disneyland. Stress from being a police captain in a hamlet with pretty much no crime broke this man’s health?

    Two weeks later, he had a press release in the local paper announcing that he had stared a security business. Guess he was not quite broken after all. Still, he was happy to cash the disability checks.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  258. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Grewgills:

    Spite is what is driving you, not any sense of justice or decency.

    Perhaps, but it’s not worth quibbling over. I think perhaps the long list of abuses that police officers suffer on a daily basis evens out the moral scale on this one, but I’ll do what I do in this regard for my own reasons. I don’t require your moral approval to do it. Yet again, justice is the concern of the system. Of the jury.

    You said it was likely and that you could convince a jury of that.

    Not to toot my own horn, but I’m a pretty good attorney. I could convince a jury that day is night – or better put – I can sure convince one of them anyway, and one is all that I need.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 9

  259. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @anjin-san:

    If you feel like hopping a plane, I’ll be glad to point out to you to whole blocks of people in Baltimore doing the same. It’s an endemic, parasitic way of life passed down from parent to child. I once heard it put like this by a teacher in Baltimore: “When they are five, they have dreams. Once they hit 10, they have a plan.” I’d wager your average 12 year old in West Baltimore can tell you more about welfare eligibility than your average attorney can. It’s a sad, sickening truth – the cycle perpetuates itself because they learn grift as a way of life.

    While I disagree with what he did, at least your guy contributed something of value in his life.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 12

  260. jukeboxgrad says:

    I have no use for someone whose purpose in life is to game the system

    Which is what you said before. Link:

    I see these people as gaming the system in order to twist a well-meaning, but ill regulated program in order to get as much as they can get from it. They’re con artists, and they are raising another generation of con artists, who will probably end up raising con artists of their own.

    And then you said that this statement was not your actual “position,” but was rather just “a performance,” and that it was “designed to cause you and others like you to react.” Link. And now we are being treated to a repeat “performance.” Why not just suggest that we reread the earlier threads? Think of all the innocent pixels that could be saved.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  261. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    I have no reason to believe that my nephew either doesn’t know what a cinder block looks like or has any reason to lie to me about his truck having been hit by one.

    Your nephew was in a highly stressful situation in a truck speeding through a riot on the way to a fire. He doesn’t need to be lying to be wrong.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

  262. jukeboxgrad says:

    I’m surprised that you actually still think that he actually has a nephew.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  263. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Perhaps, but it’s not worth quibbling over.

    My quibble was with your earlier claim that you wanted justice. If you are willing to admit that this a a performance for the sake of spite rather than you giving two sh!ts about justice I can let it drop.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  264. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Grewgills:

    Why are you determined to believe that he is? Doesn’t fit the narrative?

    Look, I think this has been worn out. If you want to support these people, knock yourself out. I’ll be doing everything I can to defend the officers. If that means actively defending them, so be it. If it means writing a very large check, then so be it. Whatever it takes.

    Spite? Desire to help them? Belief that they are being railroaded?

    Probably all of the above, but like I said, I don’t require your moral approval.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 8

  265. jukeboxgrad says:

    Grewgills:

    If you are willing to admit that this a a performance

    He already did that. When he made the same statements before he stated explicitly that he was just putting on “a performance.” Maybe he’s doing it again because he expects applause this time.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

  266. Grewgills says:

    @jukeboxgrad

    I’m surprised that you actually still think that he actually has a nephew.

    Whether he does or not doesn’t effect my argument and I give people the benefit of the doubt when it is about something as personal as family. No matter how much I disagree with him HL is a person with family he cares about just like the rest of us and I’m not going to piss on that.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  267. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    The fact that it was aimed at pissing you off in that prior thread does not indicate that 1) I do not believe it or 2) that it was in any way inaccurate.

    You can continue to rant about me all you like. This thread has run its course. If you feel the need, send the Gray family a check. At least they won’t be paying his legal fees for the open charges he was facing at the time of his death, but I suspect they’ll still take your cash.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 8

  268. jukeboxgrad says:

    Grewgills:

    I give people the benefit of the doubt

    Generally a good idea, but also a bad idea when it’s someone who says things like this:

    hoses were slashed all over the city

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

  269. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Why are you determined to believe that he is? Doesn’t fit the narrative?

    I watched the video that you said showed his truck was hit with a cinder block, if what hit that firetruck was a cinder block I’m visiting from Alpha Centauri. If a cinder block lobbed in front of a fire truck speeding through an intersection can break through the windshield then they are making fire trucks in Baltimore much less sturdy than they do out here in the middle of the Pacific. You claimed that act was attempted murder. If the act of throwing whatever it was has no real chance to seriously injure, much less kill, anyone in that truck then your assertion is false. Your assertion that you would gleefully kill (flip he switch) the person that threw whatever is not the statement of someone in the least concerned with justice.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

  270. jukeboxgrad says:

    The fact that it was aimed at pissing you off in that prior thread does not indicate that 1) I do not believe it or 2) that it was in any way inaccurate.

    Your statement was this:

    You are entirely missing the point and mistaking a performance for a position. The point was not to argue a position. The point was to present a pinata designed to cause you and others like you to react

    So I shouldn’t think you “do not believe it,” which suggests that you do “believe it.” But even though you “believe it,” it’s not actually your “position.” Thanks for clearing that up.

    aimed at pissing you off

    Thanks for admitting, again, that you are a troll.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

  271. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Grewgills:

    At no time did I assert that was his truck in the video, did I? He says it happened, his peers back him up and I believe them. That’s all that needs to be said, and as I said earlier, I’m not going to debate their honesty. You can believe as you choose.

    As far as justice, no, I am not concerned with it. Justice would be the kid who slashed hoses burning up in a fire. Justice would be the kids throwing cinder blocks getting their heads caved in by one. I’m generally an easy going guy, and I pay the taxes that support these parasites without complaining (much), but when you endanger the life of someone I love, especially when he’s putting his life at risk trying to save you from your own stupidity, then all bets are off. You become the enemy.

    If that offends you, well, I’m sorry that it does, but that’s your issue, not mine. if it comes down to his life or the life of everybody in West Baltimore, well, it’s not even a choice.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 11

  272. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    In other words, I offend you. Go pound sand, you effete bleeding heart asshole. I couldn’t care any less.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 10

  273. jukeboxgrad says:

    I offend you.

    Wrong. I don’t know why you would think you are important enough to offend anyone. You make me laugh. You are proving that this statement you made recently:

    This thread has run its course.

    Has as much credibility as the one you made a long time ago:

    I’m out of here

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

  274. Grewgills says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    As far as justice, no, I am not concerned with it.

    So I gathered a while back, but good of you to cop to it.

    Justice would be

    Now I understand what you mean when you say justice. If you shoot a gun in the air and the bullet lands in someone else’s yard, justice would be you being shot in the face. If you run a red light and narrowly miss running over someone then justice would be you then being T boned by a semi. Am I getting this right now?

    if it comes down to his life or the life of everybody in West Baltimore, well, it’s not even a choice

    Wow! You would prefer over 50,000 people dead to 1 member of your family and it isn’t even close. What about 100,000 would that be a close call? A million? How many of these lazy, shiftless thugs would you sacrifice for one of your own?

    If that offends you

    No, I just have an overdeveloped sense of SIWOTI and I would rather argue than grade papers at the moment. Tomorrow is another day and I suspect I will have less time to procrastinate.
    I hope your family comes out of this fine and I hope you rethink some of your arguments here when you have cooled down a bit.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  275. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @michael reynolds:

    Possibly all true. Rage is an exceedingly ugly thing, and it brings the resentments that we ALL carefully hide away in order to function in society out from behind their masks. Baltimore is a complicated place, with a lot of resentments bubbling just below the surface. I’m a child of Baltimore – my bubbie was the sweetest lady imaginable but she didn’t like the schvartza, and she wasn’t remotely unique in that regard, either as a Jew or as a Baltimorean, but especially not as a Baltimorean Jew. That particular divide goes back for a LONG time in Baltimore …

    It’s one of the reasons I get annoyed when people who don’t live there, who’ve never lived there, rattle on as if they know the dynamics of the place. West Baltimore has been a cesspool populated by the same sort of people for decades, at least since the mid 1950s.

    Maybe I should be more sympathetic, but I’m just not any longer. Not defending that or bemoaning it – it just is what it is. I’m fresh out of empathy by this point, and this little self-congratulating dogooder army, certain members in particular, is just so saccharine it makes my teeth hurt. I normally keep that sense of contempt to myself. Tonight, I didn’t. Sue me.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 12

  276. Ben Wolf says:

    @JKB: I would think as a self-identified conservative you would empathize with a day marked by the murder of peacefully striking Chicago workers being murdered by agents of the state.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  277. Ben Wolf says:

    @HarvardLaw92: I can assure you so long as you’ve commented here, never have you kept contempt to yourself. Indeed a smouldering hatred for others appears a primary component of your existence. So do not think yourself under some obligation to attempt congeniality or restraint — one should not hold another responsible for what lay beyond ability.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 1

  278. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Ben Wolf:

    I assure you that I have. That I engage you, for example, at all and attempt to do so congenially, given your particular brand of politics (which I find odious) is a prime example of that effort at tolerance.

    Don’t confuse hatred with contempt. I hate very few people, but feel contempt for a somewhat larger set. To hate someone, you have to care about them on some level. Contempt doesn’t require that degree of emotional involvement. I’m sure that you, of all people, understand that concept well.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 8

  279. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Ben Wolf:

    by the murder of peacefully striking Chicago workers being murdered by agents of the state.

    Interesting way of putting it, given that the mayhem began when striking workers attempted to rush the gates in order to attack strikebreaking workers who were being protected by the police (due to prior and ongoing harassment of these workers by the striking workers).

    Or that the massacre the next day was triggered when anarchists threw a bomb at the police. Interestingly, more police officers died that day than workers.

    Interesting which parts of history get remembered and which parts get (conveniently) forgotten …

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 11

  280. jukeboxgrad says:

    I see that when you said “this thread has run its course” what you meant by that was ‘I’m not done posting comments.’ Which is also what you meant when you said “I’m out of here.”

    Your comments make perfect sense once it’s understood that what you say tends to be the opposite of the truth.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

  281. HarvardLaw92 says:

    I suppose I should be flattered by your obsessive personal focus on me, but to be honest it’s a tad creepy stalkerish. You really need to get some new material. You’ve worn out what you’re (trying to) work with at this point.

    Or you could just refer to my last comment to you. It’s still valid.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

  282. jukeboxgrad says:

    it’s a tad creepy

    I’m sorry you’re still so confused. You said this:

    hoses were slashed all over the city

    That’s a lie, and it’s a lie that is both important and transparent. Also both important and transparent is the way you doubled down on your lie after you were caught. Pointing out liars isn’t “creepy.” It’s necessary.

    You making so many other statements that are also divorced from reality (like “I’m out of here,” in a comment which you followed with about 80 subsequent comments) is just icing on the cake.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

  283. Turgid Jacobian says:

    “As far as justice, no, I am not concerned with it.”

    This is weird to me because I could have sworn that you once said you were steeped in tikkun olam.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  284. Hazelrah says:

    Man, when I saw the number of posts to this I had no idea how it was going to turn out. My father was a cop. My uncle was a cop. I grew up around cops all my life. I like cops. I don’t trust a single one of them. Just my opinion from my own experiences.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0

  285. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Turgid Jacobian:

    I am, to the extent that the mitzvot do not constitute misukan for those they are intended to serve.

    In court, my job is not to seek justice. It is to vigorously defend the interests of my client to the best of my professional ability. Justice is the goal of the overall system.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5

  286. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    I’ll be focusing on everybody else’s comments. Yours are just the same protracted personal gripe repeated over and over.

    But hey. if beating that dead horse gives you your jollies, you just knock yourself out there, Sunshine 😀

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3

  287. jukeboxgrad says:

    I’ll be focusing on everybody else’s comments.

    Promises, promises. I wish this one wasn’t worthless, but your track record indicates that it is.

    Of course there’s nothing unusual about running into a troll, but trolls rarely announce explicitly that trolling is their intention. So it’s helpful to notice that you said this:

    This has been an extended sort of game I’ve played

    And this:

    You are entirely missing the point and mistaking a performance for a position. The point was not to argue a position. The point was to present a pinata designed to cause you and others like you to react

    And this:

    it was aimed at pissing you off

    What you do is “a performance,” and a “game,” and we can’t claim you didn’t warn us.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

  288. Folderol & Ephemera says:

    We have the same shiftless, lazy people (which is what they are – uncomfortable facts …) sitting around on steps that we had when I was a child.

    My sympathy now is reserved for the people whose distasteful job it is to corral them and keep them under control so the rest of us can live our lives out in some semblance of order.

    the hordes down in West Baltimore who’ve made a drug dealer into their latest hero du jour.

    I believe they’re being railroaded in order to placate the natives,

    Just how long do you think will be required for these people to step up and take responsibility for their own lives?

    These people tried to kill my nephew Monday night, so whatever sympathy or goodwill they might have had with me is gone

    the life of a scum drug dealer

    You become the enemy.

    As far as justice, no, I am not concerned with it.

    you effete bleeding heart asshole

    Do you have any idea what you sound like?!? It’s embarrassing.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 25 Thumb down 2

  289. HarvardLaw92 says:

    LOL, he’s predictable …

    Something for you to grouse and grumble about:

    The cases will almost certainly be moved out of Baltimore City to one of the surrounding counties for trial. That means one thing: largely conservative, law & order type majority white juries.

    Maryland is a compulsory unanimous verdict state, by constitutional mandate, so it only takes one juror voting to acquit for these guys to walk. I wonder how those juries I described above are going to weigh out a convicted felon heroin dealer with a lengthy sheet for burglary, assault, destruction of property, multiple counts of trafficking of narcotics (in his case heroin and crack), etc. Hell, the guy was facing charges again when he died. He was a career criminal.

    In other words, the guy was a poster boy for everything that these jurors will despise and revile.

    And it only takes one of them to acquit. I wonder which one it’ll be?

    You’re in for disappointment.

    You may now return to your regularly scheduled horse beating. 😀

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7

  290. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Folderol & Ephemera:

    Do you have any idea what you sound like

    Do you have any idea how little I care about how you think I sound? Feel free not to read it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 9

  291. TROLL b o x GRAD says:

    Junkie the original internet troll

    As Baltimore burns, rioters slash fire hoses

    notice the “s” at the end of hoses…..it makes it pural ie more than one hose

    http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/baltimore-burns-rioters-slash-fire-hoses/nk4tr/

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2

  292. Guarneri says:

    @anjin-san:

    As someone with a family history of this problem i would like to congratulate you on your recovery. Too few actually get from where you were to where you are. It is an under appreciated accomplishment.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  293. jukeboxgrad says:

    As Baltimore burns, rioters slash fire hoses

    I realize you are too stupid to bother reading the article you cited:

    a rioter slashed a hose

    I already posted examples of the so-called liberal media using plural for no reason. Thanks for providing another example.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

  294. jukeboxgrad says:

    Do you have any idea how little I care

    More words that are divorced from reality. You already told us you care, because you have said repeatedly and explicitly that your statements are specifically designed to provoke. Which means you are a troll, by definition.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

  295. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    Keep on beating that horse.

    I predict that Jukeboxgrad will respond again with the same personal attack in 4 … 3 … 2 …

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5

  296. Guarneri says:

    Whether hl92 is really hl92 or a troll seems entirely irrelevant at this point. He/she has done a magnificent job of getting you all tied up in your panties.

    Another day, another worthless thread.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 8

  297. Xenos says:

    @HarvardLaw92: @HarvardLaw92: Typical ignorant HLS bullshit.

    The day is remembered not because of who threw the bomb (probably one of the anarchist factions, but accusations it was police agents have not been disproven) but because a number of moderate labor leaders were rounded up, given trials that clearly did not meet due process, and promptly executed.

    Within a few years the executed men were given post-mortem pardons due to the outrageous actions of prosecutors and political leaders.

    I some damn-fool HLS prosecutor had been in place in Baltimore the place would be a war zone by now. No damn sense or the intellectual humility necessary to learn a damn thing from anyone else as wonderful as you, I guess.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

  298. Folderol & Ephemera says:

    Do you have any idea how little I care about how you think I sound?

    It’s becoming apparent that you don’t seem to care how your writing may be perceived. But it really doesn’t make you look any better if you rebut an observation of your embarrassing behavior with the most petulant “I don’t care!” rejoinder possible (with the standard “If you don’t like it you don’t have to read it” nonsense).

    But feel free to continue destroying whatever was left of your pseudonym’s reputation here. You had a good run!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 1

  299. Barry says:

    @DrDaveT: “Once again, this seems to be the most common link among all of the publicized incidents over the past couple of years. The level of provocation and/or justification behind the initial confrontation varies wildly, from “none at all” to “yeah, probably guilty as hell”. The absolute indifference to suffering and medical need is without exception. ”

    Yes. For example, in the SC murder, one of the officers knelt on the head (I’ll bet it was actually the neck) of a man who’d been shot multiple times, for several minutes. The police rendered no first aid for several minutes.

    It was an organized ‘finishing off’ of an injured man.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  300. jukeboxgrad says:

    I predict that Jukeboxgrad will respond again

    It’s not exactly a difficult prediction because I never said I wouldn’t. You’re the one who said this:

    I’ll be focusing on everybody else’s comments.

    I said your promise to ignore me was worthless, and you promptly proved that I was right. I look forward to your next worthless promise. I’m sure there will be many.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  301. Barry says:

    @Dave Schuler: “I have my doubts that the police officers will be convicted on the charges. Based on published accounts it’s hard to see how the charge of 2nd degree murder in particular would stand. The defense that the original arrest was a mistake should obviate the possibility of predicate felony. If every mistake by every police officer is a possible felony, you probably won’t retain many police officers.”

    First of all, f*ck all lying arguments about the police quitting, or not applying for the job. When that happens we’ll worry, but it never has before.

    Second, f*ck you for lying about what happened. This was not a ‘mistake’, this was the murder of a prisoner, pure and simple.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 5

  302. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Xenos:

    Not to ruin a good rant, but the executions took place more than a year after the original trial, and only then after the defendants had completely exhausted their appeals process (in which they enjoyed the services of no less than 4 competent attorneys) to both the Supreme Court of Illinois (which upheld the convictions) and the US Supreme Court (which denied certiorari).

    Just how much due process do you think was denied them?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 9

  303. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Folderol & Ephemera:

    This is a collection of strangers on the internet. You might want to consider getting some degree of perspective.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 8

  304. Barry says:

    @Dave Schuler: “My point was not that it was a mistake but that it can be claimed to have been a mistake. ”

    No, you’re statement was about it being a mistake, but thanks for admitting that you’re lying.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4

  305. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    It’s not exactly a difficult prediction because I never said I wouldn’t

    Of course you will. Like I said, you’re nothing if not predictable.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 5

  306. jukeboxgrad says:

    This is a collection of strangers on the internet.

    This is a collection of people that includes people who are sincere as well as people who are insincere. Thanks for doing such a good job of letting us know which category you’re in.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

  307. Bob @ Youngstown says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    At 9:08 am on 5/2/2015 you refered to Gray as:

    convicted felon heroin dealer

    Could you please tell us when Gray was convicted as a heroin dealer?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  308. Barry says:

    @Tyrell: “This seems kind of quick to have a thorough investigation. I am also not sure of a murder charge.”

    First, it’s been close to two weeks. Second, the investigation needed only to establish cause and evidence to indict, not to convict.

    And finally, the police loaded a guy into a van, and delivered him dead. What part of that do you not understand?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  309. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Barry:

    This was not a ‘mistake’, this was the murder of a prisoner, pure and simple.

    Murder requires intent, which is why the one officer charged with murder is actually being charged with what actually amounts to criminally negligent homicide. The title of the statute is a quirk of Maryland law, but it’s not actually murder in the sense that we legally define murder.

    Even then, the likelihood of a conviction on that charge is remote.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 5

  310. jukeboxgrad says:

    you’re nothing if not predictable

    Predicting that I’m going to confront lying liars who lie is not exactly hard, since I’ve been doing it here and elsewhere for a long time.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

  311. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Bob @ Youngstown:

    Sure.

    January 14, 2015: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute

    December 31, 2014: Possession of narcotics with intent to distribute

    April 13, 2012: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, violation of probation

    July 16, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession with intent to distribute

    March 14, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to manufacture and distribute

    August 29, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, violation of probation

    July 16, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance (2 counts)

    Note those are just the trafficking charges. His record includes several others besides those.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5

  312. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    You did alliteration! Well done 😀

    Keep toiling. The horse might not be dead yet? 😀

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 8

  313. Barry says:

    @Just ‘nutha’ ig’rant cracker: “I’m glad that some on the right are taking this seriously. It opens the possibility that thinking, rather than reacting, will start happening. The idea that the right will see the systemic elements that this type of event indicates is a bridge too far for me. ”

    Frankly, the overwhelming majority of the right supports this. The only time they’ve had trouble is when the police use force – even, or especially, reasonable and prudent force – against right-wingers.

    The most that we’ve ever seen is a very, very few individuals having problems, and almost all of them recant once it’s clear what the right-wing line is.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  314. Folderol & Ephemera says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    You might want to consider getting some degree of perspective.

    Commenter, heal thyself.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

  315. Barry says:

    @Stormy Dragon: “Eventually only the true-believers are left. ”

    IMHO, true-believers in their own power. Corrupt prosecutors in conspiracy with corrupt police wield a lot of power.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

  316. Barry says:

    @Grewgills: “Really? Out of all of the commentary that has happened here this is what did it for you? Why not make your case whatever that may be rather than leaving in a huff? ”

    It’s weird, since he seemed to be more reasonable recently.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

  317. Bob @ Youngstown says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    Sorry, that’s an arrest record, not a conviction record.

    According to Balt Sun and LA times, the drug possession with intent arrests were for MJ, not heroin.

    Can you come up with a conviction?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

  318. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Folderol & Ephemera:

    At this point I am just having fun. The topic is long since exhausted.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 7

  319. jukeboxgrad says:

    HarvardLaw92:

    those are just the trafficking charges

    You said this:

    a convicted felon heroin dealer

    What you cited is a list of charges, not convictions. Since you don’t understand the difference you should ask Harvard Law School for a refund.

    You will show proof that he is “a convicted felon heroin dealer” at roughly the same time you show proof for this lie you told:

    hoses were slashed all over the city

    I guess “convicted felon heroin dealer” is something else you heard from your imaginary “nephew.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  320. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Bob @ Youngstown:

    Sorry, in Maryland, arrests for marijuana are listed as marijuana. CDS means a controlled substance. They distinguish between the two.

    You should feel free to examine his disposition records here if it interests you.

    You’ll want to look for CDS:POSS W/INTENT DIST: NARC, and CDS:POSSESS-NOT MARIJUANA, among others. Those are the headliners though.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4

  321. jukeboxgrad says:

    You should feel free to examine his disposition records

    The burden of proving a claim rests with the person who made the claim. That’s you. You’re refusing to support your claim because it’s another lie.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4

  322. Barry says:

    @HarvardLaw92: Everything that you said is a lie, pure and simple:

    “There is no case to make. ”

    There is an excellent case to make – a prisoner was delivered dead by violence.

    “This panel has determined its verdict long before today’s announcement of charges,”

    We get to do that, especially when the evidence is overwhelming – and remember that the BPD has had almost two weeks to leak any exculpatory evidence, which they have not.

    “… and challenging the orthodoxy of what has increasingly become some sort of self-congratulating mental masturbation society / echo chamber just doesn’t interest me much any longer. ”

    There are multiple lies in here, which I’ll unpack.

    First, about 40% of the American people like and want corrupt, brutal, and illegal police who are a law unto themselves, so long as the police target the people the right dislikes.

    Second, liberals don’t and do not treat all cops as being evil. We consider evil cops to be evil, along with those who aid and abet them.

    Third, we are not a self-congratulating orthodoxy – we are a faction which is against the prevailing orthodoxy of power.

    Fourth, don’t be so full of yourself – you’ve participated in many debates here; the only reason that you’re leaving in a fraudulent huff is that you have an opinion which is factually wrong and morally indefensible.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 3

  323. Barry says:

    @HarvardLaw92: I thought that you left in a huff, Mr. Harvard Lawyer.

    Don’t you even have the self-control to wait until tomorrow, and to come back in another thread?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

  324. Barry says:

    @Stormy Dragon: “PS – The dramatically storming out in a huff thing doesn’t work if you keep coming back to see if people miss you yet. ”

    I did expect at least better acting from a Harvard lawyer.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  325. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @< Jukeboxgrad

    Case # 108213015, Baltimore City Circuit Court. Pleaded guilty to CDS: POSS W/INT MANF/DISTR/DISP, 4/23/2009. Sentenced to 4 years.

    There are others.

    Would you like to continue?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5

  326. jukeboxgrad says:

    Believing that he’s actually an actual “Harvard lawyer” is about as wise as believing that he was sincere when he said this:

    I’m out of here

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

  327. jukeboxgrad says:

    CDS: POSS W/INT MANF/DISTR/DISP … Would you like to continue?

    I’d like you to help me find the part that says “heroin.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

  328. Barry says:

    @HarvardLaw92: “As for the bouncing around, you weren’t there. I wasn’t there.”

    His neck was broken, *and* ‘rough rides’ are a known thing.

    BTW, we know better than to accept a stupid and dishonest argument ‘you weren’t there’, and the implication that we can’t make reasonable inferences.

    ” You’re assuming that it happened, ”

    He’s dead. That’s not an assumption.

    “I suspect because you dislike the police. ”

    You don’t have a single thing to support that.

    “I suspect that it didn’t. ”

    You suspect that he’s not dead?

    “There’s enough reasonable doubt introduced by the testimony of the other passenger that he injured himself, and that’s all that I need to hear. Given the choice between 6 decorated cops and one drug dealer, I know who I’m, more likely to believe. ”

    First, the testimony of a man in the custody of those who want certain testimony is not reliable; if you had actually gone to law school, you’d know that.

    Second, the ‘testimony’ states that a many broke his own neck by slamming against the wall of a vehicle, while bound hand and foot. That’s clearly a lie propagated by the murderers, and you are clearly lying in their defense.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

  329. Barry says:

    @Barry: Oh, and for somebody who stormed out in a huff, you still seem to be here.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

  330. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Barry:

    Let me be a little more blunt with you then:

    Your evident moral outrage aside, the likelihood that these guys walk is quite high. In fact, I’d say it’s overwhelming if the cases are sent to another jurisdiction, which is also quite likely.

    I’m having a difficult time caring that a career criminal is dead – because he was a career criminal – and I assure you that there will be at least one person on the juries who’ll feel the same way. There always is …

    One is all that it takes in Maryland.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5

  331. Barry says:

    @HarvardLaw92: “No, I’m just beyond fed up with apologists. Do I favor the police? Absolutely. It is what it is. ”

    Again with the lies. You are not fed up with apologists – you are one yourself. And almost everybody here favors the police – what we don’t favor is corrupt police, and their dishonest apologists.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 3

  332. Barry says:

    @HarvardLaw92: BTW, didn’t you just ‘storm out in a huff’?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

  333. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Barry:

    Feel free to make your argument to the court. I’ve made up my mind about this one, as have you. Neither of us is interested in hearing what the other has to say on the matter.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 7

  334. Barry says:

    @HarvardLaw92: “They could be utterly blameless and they’d still be charged with something to placate the hordes down in West Baltimore who’ve made a drug dealer into their latest hero du jour.”

    They are not utterly blameless. That’s the whole point, which you are quite deliberately missing.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 4

  335. Barry says:

    @HarvardLaw92: Still waiting for the door to close behind your storming-out-in-a-huff-@ss.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 2

  336. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Barry:

    Again with the lies. You are not fed up with apologists – you are one yourself. And almost everybody here favors the police – what we don’t favor is corrupt police, and their dishonest apologists.

    See previous comment. One dead lowlife isn’t worth six cops. There’s really nothing more for you and I to discuss.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 9

  337. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Barry:

    LOL, oh no, at this point I’m staying. I’m just not going to be as nice as I’ve been in the past. You can take that for what you believe it to be worth (which I assure you doesn’t interest me either).

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 6

  338. Barry says:

    @HarvardLaw92: “The rough ride thing is disputed, and frankly, I just don’t believe it. Failing to provide medical assistance? Fine, I’ll accept negligence, but murder? Good luck …”

    Still waiting for the huff-storm.

    As for disputing the rough ride thing, explain the broken neck.

    And do you think that we’re dumb enough to take ‘is disputed’ as meaning anything except that criminals and their defenders will lie?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

  339. Barry says:

    @Grewgills: “Do you really think it at all likely that Gray crushed his own trachea and nearly severed his own spine, or do you just think you are a good enough attorney to convince a jury of that? ”

    Answer the question, Harvard.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3

  340. jukeboxgrad says:

    HarvardLaw92:

    Case # 108213015, Baltimore City Circuit Court. Pleaded guilty to CDS: POSS W/INT MANF/DISTR/DISP, 4/23/2009. Sentenced to 4 years.

    There are others.

    Would you like to continue?

    You said this:

    a convicted felon heroin dealer

    The relevant statute is here. “CDS” is a large category which includes many substances that are not “heroin.” So the “heroin” part is something else you heard from your imaginary “nephew,” right?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 4

  341. jukeboxgrad says:

    Barry:

    explain the broken neck

    He already told us Freddie did that to himself.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  342. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Barry:

    They are not utterly blameless. That’s the whole point, which you are quite deliberately missing.

    Really? Seems to me that until they are convicted, which for reasons stated above is unlikely to ever happen, they are innocent of all charges against them. I’m not deliberately missing it. I’ve made a conscious decision that I do not care.

    Unfortunate things happen all the time.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 7

  343. Bob @ Youngstown says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    You should feel free to examine his disposition records here if it interests you

    Thank you, because it does interest me…..however the link that you provided is DEAD !

    My understanding is that the only conviction with jail time was when he was 18, and he spent 2 years in jail. It’s not clear that he was dealing heroin.

    Providing a dead link is not helpful.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  344. Barry says:

    @HarvardLaw92: “Or they simply made a good-faith error about the nature of the knife. You have proof of this knowing and intentional fabrication? See where this is going?”

    First, for somebody who’s making a big kerfuffle about knowing what people are thinking, perhaps you should shut up (and you know – storm out in a huff).

    Second, we’re aware that you are quite deliberately and quite dishonestly not mentioning the whole ‘murdered a prisoner’ thing.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

  345. Barry says:

    @Stormy Dragon: “They’re being treated like peasantry and being subjected to the same justice as everyone else. Don’t we know the King’s Men are susposed to be above the law? ”

    Thanks for point this out. HarvardHuffn’Puff here is claiming that ‘not being above the law’ is somehow a bad thing.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

  346. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Barry:

    I’m not sure you get how this works.

    My guys are innocent until proven guilty. I don’t have to prove ANYthing. That’s the job of YOUR side of this argument.

    All I have to do is attack the victim and put him on trial, which I assure you is what will happen in court.

    And all I need is one. Maybe he’s a closet racist. Maybe’s he knows someone whose life was destroyed by drugs. Maybe he just likes cops.

    It doesn’t matter to me. All I need is one …

    You, on the other hand, need all of them. Best of luck …

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 9

  347. Barry says:

    @HarvardLaw92: “I’ll take that as “No, I do not have any evidence to suggest that this wasn’t a good-faith error”. Thanks for playing. ”

    Coming from a guy who still hasn’t even acknowledge a killing, that’s rich.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3

  348. Barry says:

    @HarvardLaw92: “Unless he injured himself, which is not outside the realm of possibility. ”

    Stop lying. I’m amazed at your ability to rebuke everybody here for prejudging things, while looking at a dead prisoner, and finding doubt, when that doubt fits your prejudices.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

  349. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Barry:

    Second, we’re aware that you are quite deliberately and quite dishonestly not mentioning the whole ‘murdered a prisoner’ thing.

    Murder requires deliberate intent to effect death. You have evidence that these officers sent out with the intent of causing Mr. Gray’s death?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5

  350. jukeboxgrad says:

    Bob @ Youngstown:

    Providing a dead link is not helpful.

    A link that works is here. Follow the instructions and enter the name. You will see cases that reference “CDS,” which is a large category that includes many substances that are not heroin. So our friend’s “heroin” claim is yet another lie from a serial liar.

    That’s why he’s ignoring your questions.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  351. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Barry:

    Coming from a guy who still hasn’t even acknowledge a killing, that’s rich.

    I acknowledge a death. The circumstances of that death, from a criminal standpoint, are yet to be determined by a jury.

    and I only need one juror. I only care about one juror.

    Let me be frank with you – I do not care. His life, such as it was anyway, isn’t worth destroying 6 cops. Baltimore is a better place without him in it. If that offends you, feel free to go off on some emotional rant. I’ve had mine already. I’m back to cold now.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 9

  352. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    No, from his bail bondsman:

    REID: He was accused of being a heroin dealer.

    How long do you intend to play this game? I’ll need some coffee if you’re really off on one of your righteousness tangents, so let me know.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 5

  353. Barry says:

    @HarvardLaw92: “It ended 50 years ago. Just how long do you think will be required for these people to step up and take responsibility for their own lives?”

    Bullsh*t. That’s not even a new lie.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3

  354. Barry says:

    @HarvardLaw92: “It offends me that what passes for city government in Baltimore is likely throwing these people to the wolves in order to buy peace. ”

    Where the alleged Harvard lawyer equates ‘police officers not being above the law’ to ‘throwing people to the wolves’.

    Honesty is no more your strength than actually huff-storming-out’ing’ is.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

  355. jukeboxgrad says:

    from his bail bondsman:

    REID: He was accused of being a heroin dealer.

    I know “he was accused of being a heroin dealer.” You said he was convicted. You said that because you’re a liar. Find a child who can help you grasp the difference between “accused” and “convicted.”

    I’ll need some coffee

    You have problems that won’t be solved by coffee.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2

  356. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Barry:

    You didn’t answer the question, I notice. You guys never seem to want to address that one.

    if it hasn’t been long enough, in your considered opinion, how long do you think will be required before we can begin to legitimately expect these people to carry at least a portion of their own weight? 50 years? 100 years? Next week?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

  357. Bob @ Youngstown says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    And all I need is one

    Example of high-minded officer of the court. Proof or truth be damned, all I need is one member of the jury to be persuaded by ANY means, even if it has nothing to do with the testimony presented at trial.

    I see that as “win at all costs” even if the cost undermines the “overall goal of justice for all”.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  358. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Trey:

    LOL, knock yourself out. Have fun.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4

  359. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Bob @ Youngstown:

    It will be testimony presented at trial. It’ll just be testimony concerning Gray and his activities.

    Are you asserting that these officers aren’t entitled to advance whatever defense they feel is useful to them?

    I see it as having made a value judgment. You’re free, of course, to make your own. I’ve made mine.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4

  360. jukeboxgrad says:

    Bob @ Youngstown:

    Proof or truth be damned

    Nothing new about this. He already said this:

    I’m a lawyer. Frankly, I’m a damn good one. I bend the rules for a living

    So he admitted that he’s no different than the people he condemns. Link.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  361. Rafer Janders says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Murder requires deliberate intent to effect death.

    Actually, not necessarily true, only first-degree does. Second-degree, for example, can be a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender’s obvious lack of concern for human life. The van driver cop in Baltimore was in fact charged with second-degree depraved-heart murder, where “depraved-heart” means that the suspect held a reckless disregard for another person’s life.

    For a charge of felony murder, you don’t even have to have committed the murder yourself — if someone is murdered in the commission of a felony, then everyone involved in that felony, not just the killer, can be charged with the murder. No intent is necessary.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 2

  362. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    It warms my heart to know that you are willing to spend your entire day scouring my postings in pursuit of something that I don’t care about in the least.

    What do you think the outcome is going to be? People are going to dislike me? Well, helpful hint, they probably already do now. Whoopee … Strangers on the internet, remember? How will I ever survive if strangers on the internet dislike me? Whatever will I do?

    Beginning to see how utterly ridiculous you’re acting? You’re pursuing a goal that your opponent doesn’t care if you achieve. Is this seriously how you spend your days?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 5

  363. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    Second degree murder in Maryland requires intent. Depraved heart murder is a misnomer that is more akin to depraved indifference. Different elements, different sentencing guidelines.

    That said, I think I’ve been more than clear about why a conviction on that charge in this case, which only one officer is facing to begin with, is exceedingly unlikely. Are you disputing the procedural analysis?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4

  364. jukeboxgrad says:

    You’re pursuing a goal that your opponent doesn’t care if you achieve.

    You thinking that I care whether or not you care is yet another example of how stupid you are.

    Is this seriously how you spend your days?

    I have spent many days deconstructing clowns like you, and for many good reasons.

    For the benefit of those just tuning in, here’s a quick review of a couple of your most colorful lies. I like this one:

    hoses were slashed all over the city

    I also like this one:

    a convicted felon heroin dealer

    It’s interesting to notice your consistency as a liar. In both cases you are exaggerating the truth (one hose was slashed, and Gray was a convicted drug dealer, but the drug was not necessarily heroin). In both cases, when caught you doubled down on the lie. In both cases, you pretended to show proof even though your so-called proof did not support your claim. In both cases, you tried to change the subject after your phony ‘proof’ was challenged.

    Please proceed.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  365. HarvardLaw92 says:

    You thinking that I care whether or not you care is yet another example of how stupid you are.

    LOL, you must, else why do you keep toiling away? For that matter, why do you keep responding?

    I have spent many days deconstructing clowns like you, and for many good reasons.

    Such as? It sounds to me like you need to get laid. You’ve got a bad case of SIWOTI that is being used against you

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 6

  366. Rafer Janders says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Second degree murder in Maryland requires intent. Depraved heart murder is a misnomer that is more akin to depraved indifference. Different elements, different sentencing guidelines.

    The name of the charge under Maryland law is “second-degree depraved heart murder.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  367. Bob @ Youngstown says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Are you asserting that these officers aren’t entitled to advance whatever defense they feel is useful to them?

    Absolutely not, but even you should recognize that attacking the victim is not always a good tactic.
    No doubt that the defense will be counting on using Gray’s past, but it will be up to a judge to determine if his past is probative to the present case.

    I see it as having made a value judgment. You’re free, of course, to make your own. I’ve made mine.

    As for myself, I’ll wait till the trial and the testimony before I pass judgement.

    Have a blessed day.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  368. jukeboxgrad says:

    you must, else why do you keep toiling away?

    For reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not you care. By the way, the word for a person who asks questions while refusing to answer them is chutzpah.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

  369. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    Big deal. He’ll never be convicted of it, and I suspect you know that already. She’s showboating for the benefit of the natives.

    In fact, I suspect that a broad majority of these charges will not withstand the jury room. The bar for conviction in Maryland is just too high, and none of these guys is going to waiver unanimity.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7

  370. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Bob @ Youngstown:

    Absolutely not, but even you should recognize that attacking the victim is not always a good tactic.

    No, but when your victim is a black drug dealer, your defendants are cops and your jury pool is largely conservative and majority white, it’s a pretty great one – especially in a compulsory unanimity state.

    No doubt that the defense will be counting on using Gray’s past, but it will be up to a judge to determine if his past is probative to the present case.

    His past directly affects their decision to effect the stop in the first place and to pursue. It’ll get in.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 9

  371. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    For reasons that have nothing to do with whether or not you care.

    Well, ok, if it’s what gives you a chubby.

    By the way, the word for a person who asks questions while refusing to answer them is chutzpah.

    By the way, the term for a person who spends hours toiling away on the internet when he’s too dumb to grasp that he’s being toyed with for someone else’s amusement is SIWOTI.

    I don’t take you seriously? Haven’t you gotten that yet? You’re amusing because you take me SO seriously, so much so that you must defeat and expose the stranger on the internet!

    Like I said, you desperately need to get laid. The sooner the better. Since I suspect that is also unlikely to happen, please saddle up that donkey and charge away, Don.

    LMAO … rme at the freaks you meet on the internet …

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7

  372. Jack says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Riddle me this: Maryland, and Baltimore in particular, has some of the most generous welfare & assistance programs int the nation. A single mother living in Baltimore (of which there is a surplus, given the facts that 2/3rd of the city’s births are to unwed mothers, and 60% of the city’s households are headed by single parents) qualifies for a buffet of assistance. TANF, SNAP, Medicaid, Housing Assistance, Utilities Assistance, WIC, Emergency Food Assistance, etc. The list goes on and on, to the point where a single mom with 2 kids in Baltimore receives the equivalent of $18.35 an hour in benefits.

    We’re throwing money at them, and yet nothing has changed in West Baltimore in my lifetime. Nothing has changed in Sandtown. We have the same shiftless, lazy people (which is what they are – uncomfortable facts …) sitting around on steps that we had when I was a child. We’ve thrown literally hundreds of billions of dollars at the problem, and yet we’re worse off than when we started. You can’t expect anything different from people who expect nothing from themselves, and that’s just how it is.

    Baltimore has a black mayor. A black state’s attorney. The bulk of the police force is black, as is the police commissioner. The fire chief is black. 8 of the 15 members of the Baltimore City Council (a majority …) are black. To assert that these people have no political power, that they are unrepresented, in the face of those facts is frankly bullshit.

    Yea, I get slavery this, and redlining that, but you know, all that ended long ago. I’m fed up with the endless historical excuses that are offered up to excuse the fact that quite a large chunk of this community just doesn’t give a damn. They’d rather sit around and blame everyone and everything else but themselves for a problem that they do little, if anything, of their own volition to alleviate. They live in a hell of their own creation, and I just don’t feel sorry for them any longer. They’ve burned that goodwill up. My sympathy now is reserved for the people whose distasteful job it is to corral them and keep them under control so the rest of us can live our lives out in some semblance of order.

    If you consider that to be trolling, you have bigger problems than being offended by me. I’d suggest spending a few weeks in West Baltimore as a remedy.

    Welcome to the Republican Party.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1

  373. jukeboxgrad says:

    he’s too dumb to grasp that he’s being toyed with for someone else’s amusement

    You thinking that you are not a source of amusement is a source of amusement.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

  374. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Jack:

    I used to be a Republican. If it weren’t for their ridiculous obsession with everybody’s sex life and the bible thumping, I’d still be one.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7

  375. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    Like I said, if it’s what gets you through your evidently sad little day, saddle up the donkey and charge away.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 8

  376. jukeboxgrad says:

    charge away

    You thinking I need your permission is yet another source of amusement.

    If it weren’t for their ridiculous obsession with everybody’s sex life

    Hilarious, coming from someone who just said this:

    you need to get laid … ok, if it’s what gives you a chubby

    Self-awareness is not exactly your strong point.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

  377. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    Dapple, away! Charge the windmill!

    ROFL … freak 😀

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

  378. Ken says:

    Wow, this is some thread. I have two questions:

    1) When did HarvardLaw92 become such an angry racist asshole and WATB? Or is that just James P or superdestroyer using his name?

    I mean – “shiftless, lazy people”? Seriously? You misspelled “ni**ers”, dude.

    2) Since he has apparently already admitted that it nothing more than a performance specifically intended to get reactions from the crowd here (i.e., trolling), why has he still being allowed to post dozens of additional angry, racist trollposts?

    Okay, that’s actually three, I know

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 2

  379. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @ Jukeboxgrad

    Have fun toiling. I think I’ll get some golf in since it’s such a lovely day.

    I’ll check back in later to see how you’ve progressed though, OK? I wouldn’t want to to think I don’t love you any longer. :roll:

    😀 *doubled over with laughter* 😀

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

  380. Ken says:

    @Ken: When did HarvardLaw92 become such an angry racist asshole and WATB?

    @HarvardLaw92: I used to be a Republican. If it weren’t for their ridiculous obsession with everybody’s sex life and the bible thumping, I’d still be one.

    That clears it up, thanks

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

  381. jukeboxgrad says:

    I’ll check back in later

    Good idea. Oops, I almost forgot. You said this:

    hoses were slashed all over the city … I can produce as many firefighters as you’d like to attest to that fact

    When you said “I can produce,” did you mean on this planet? Did you mean during this century? Because so far you have managed to “produce” this number: zero. So when you “check back in later,” will you finally manage to “produce” what you said you “can produce?” Or will it be just be more of your fascinating commentary about my “chubby?” Just curious.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

  382. anjin-san says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    If you feel like hopping a plane, I’ll be glad to point out to you to whole blocks of people in Baltimore doing the same.

    Gee, I’m impressed by your unique life experience in Baltimore. Why do that when I could just hop in my car and drive to 73rd Ave. in Oakland, where I lived about half a century ago?I don’t think you have anything going on there that I could not find here.

    My family has deep roots in Oakland. When I was little, we had paper drives, science fairs, and father/son spaghetti dinners where the dads (who all affected the astronaut look) listened to Roger Miller Records, and talked about Johnny U and “The Pack”. (Hey, I had a Tyrell moment!)

    Things have changed for sure, and not for the better. Yet I manage to go through my days without despising the poor people that live in my old neighborhood.

    So, rationalize the systemic abuse of disability retirements by police if you must. I’m sure you could do the same for billionaires who game the system for profit.

    Is the guy who has been ranting in here the real you? If it is, I can only feel sorry for you.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

  383. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Ken:

    I mean – “shiftless, lazy people”? Seriously? You misspelled “ni**ers”, dude.

    No, I meant what I said. Shiftless, lazy people, irrespective of race. Do you dispute that there is a healthy serving of shiftless, lazy people living in West Baltimore?

    If so, go visit. You’ll change your mind on that topic. I grew up there, so no need for me to visit again. Nothing much ever changes there. Same people sitting on stoops drinking or shooting or smoking their lives away.

    Since he has apparently already admitted that it nothing more than a performance specifically intended to get reactions from the crowd here (i.e., trolling), why has he still being allowed to post dozens of additional angry, racist trollposts?

    Jukeboxgrad is recycling old posts from a long ago thread into this thread, for reasons known only to him but which apparently help him make it through his day. I’ve always been exceedingly pro-cop. Is that something that you’d honestly find to be that surprising?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 8

  384. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @anjin-san:

    Yet I manage to go through my days without despising the poor people that live in my old neighborhood.

    I do not “despise” them. I just do not feel sorry for them any longer. I will say that I’m pretty ill with the ones that burn down buildings and loot stores. Those folks I do have contempt for, but they are a subset of the larger problem. That having been said, their lives are the product of their own bad choices, and at some point the responsibility for those outcomes has to fall at their own feet. For me anyway, that point has arrived.

    I used to believe they could be saved, but then I came to the conclusion that they probably do not want to be saved. They want to be supported, while simultaneously railing about the indignity of being supported, and that hypocrisy was just too much to stomach, so I exited the room.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 8

  385. jukeboxgrad says:

    Jukeboxgrad is recycling old posts from a long ago thread into this thread

    January is not “long ago,” and what you did then is relevant because it’s blindingly obvious that you’re doing precisely the same thing now. What you said today:

    I have no use for someone whose purpose in life is to game the system

    What you said in January:

    I see these people as gaming the system

    So when you said that then it was just “a performance,” but now it’s not? More hilarity, please.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 3

  386. Ken says:

    @HarvardLaw92: Shiftless, lazy people, irrespective of race.

    Yeah, sure – your nonstop references to “these people”, the “shiftless, lazy” “thugs” “whose purpose in life is to game the system in order to avoid having to accept responsibility” is about *everyone*

    If “white people can be ni**ers, too” is the best you’ve got, color me unimpressed

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 2

  387. Bob @ Youngstown says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    No, but when your victim is a black drug dealer, your defendants are cops and your jury pool is largely conservative and majority white,

    In other words “a jury of your peers”……

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  388. anjin-san says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    I do not “despise” them.

    The language you have been employing on this thread suggests otherwise.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 0

  389. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Bob @ Youngstown:

    In other words “a jury of your peers”……

    Jury pools have to reflect as much as reasonably possible the racial makeup of the jurisdiction from which they are drawn. In all of the likely candidates (Howard, Anne Arundel, and Harford, IMO) that is far and away majority white. It’s just the nature of the beast under the best of circumstances. With compulsory unanimity thrown in, it becomes even more pointed, because only one holdout is required to derail the conviction.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4

  390. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @anjin-san:

    The language you have been employing on this thread suggests otherwise.

    If so, mea culpa. I suspect that is to some extent because we’ve been discussing multiple sets of a population, and to another extent because people who are offended read their own issues into commentary, which colors it to fit their outrage.

    I don’t think the majority of the folks there are bad people. I do think the looters are bad people who belong in prison. The rest I think have mostly made bad choices and now they have to live with them. That doesn’t make them bad people, but it does at some point have to make it their problem.

    Until they have an interest in solving it, it’ll never get solved. You can’t help people who seemingly refuse to help themselves.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4

  391. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Ken:

    Yeah, sure – your nonstop references to “these people”, the “shiftless, lazy” “thugs” “whose purpose in life is to game the system in order to avoid having to accept responsibility” is about *everyone*

    It IS about everyone. In the context of this discussion, it’s blacks, but i feel exactly the same way about a white single mother in Mississippi engaging in the same behaviors. A culture of dependency isn’t defined by race. Neighborhoods are defined by race. Dependency is an equal opportunity disease.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4

  392. Ben Wolf says:

    @HarvardLaw92: Your wikipedia history is showing. Workers peacefully protesting approached the gate and were immediately fired upon by police, killing several. Do leave these complex issues to others, you seem unsuited to it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 1

  393. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Ben Wolf:

    That’s the funny thing about history – you have to read multiple versions of it to get anywhere near the truth. If you want to select the ones that fit your preferred narrative and disregard the rest, be my guest.

    The striking workers had been harassing strikebreakers at the McCormick plant for several days. Why would they suddenly peacefully approach them, at the very time they were leaving the plant, on this one particular day? Did they suddenly have an interest in witty repartee? In tea with the boys? The cops were there in the first place to protect the strikebreakers precisely because they had been previously harassed.

    I notice that you didn’t dispute the assertion that the cops were attacked first the following day, or that more of them died than civilians.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4

  394. Jack says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    I’m not sure you get how this works.

    My guys are innocent until proven guilty. I don’t have to prove ANYthing. That’s the job of YOUR side of this argument.

    All I have to do is attack the victim and put him on trial, which I assure you is what will happen in court.

    And all I need is one. Maybe he’s a closet racist. Maybe’s he knows someone whose life was destroyed by drugs. Maybe he just likes cops.

    It doesn’t matter to me. All I need is one …

    You, on the other hand, need all of them. Best of luck …

    And where were you on the George Zimmerman trial?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2

  395. Another Mike says:

    @HarvardLaw92: used to be a Republican.

    Interesting. That explains this comment.:

    “They’d rather buy him more invisible cloaks so they can congratulate themselves on their magnanimity and feel swell.”

    It is the feeling of moral superiority that counts. Whether the program really helps or fails, is not that important. The credit was earned by taking the action and the good feelings were banked then.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

  396. Modulo Myself says:

    @Jack:

    This has zero to do with George Zimmerman. There’s no fight, no conflict, no threat, no ambiguous situation. It’s about six officers who carted around a shackled prisoner, and who, according to the prosecutor, knew he was unresponsive and did nothing about it. Have you ever come across somebody, asked them a question, found them unresponsive, and then ignored it?

    “Hey Jack how are you?”
    (Jack lies face-down, silent, motionless.)
    “Well, have a nice day.”

    5 of 6 officers gave statements, it looks like. I’m guessing they basically issued their own guilty verdicts and probably put the worst words and actions in the role of the driver, who did not cooperate.

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  397. Jack says:

    Long and interesting thread.

    Most of you know that I am no fan of heavy handed police tactics nor the current state of law enforcement as we know it today. But,I must say, I agree with HarvardLaw92 on this. There will be no conviction anywhere close to homicide or manslaughter.

    FACT: Gray was alive when he entered the van.
    FACT: He was unresponsive (not dead) when they went to pull him out.
    FACT: Something, which must be proved, but to which no one can offer evidence, happened in the interim.

    6 officers have been charged. If they all stick together, which is very likely, at most you will see a conviction for negligence or misconduct.

    There is no proof that any one officer can be blamed for Gray’s death. You cannot point to any one person and say “He caused Gray’s death”, and make it stick.

    The officers cannot be forced to testify. So all there will be is supposition.

    What many people want to do is simply say, all the officers are to blame, and be done with it. But, that’s not how the justice system works. As long as the defense can argue that many other things might have happened during transport, none of which were attributable to the officers, caused Gray’s injuries.

    Thus, there is reasonable doubt.

    Something happened. Yes. But until someone can say specifically what happened beyond any reasonable doubt, this will not result in any jail time for the officers…and thus, more rioting and looting by those that loved and cared for Gray so much that their only recompense is to riot and loot.

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  398. Jack says:

    @Modulo Myself:

    There’s no fight, no conflict, no threat, no ambiguous situation.

    But, you are wrong. The officers that chased Gray will say he fought and resisted arrest (fighting and ambiguity).

    The arresting officers will say he was combative as they tried to get him in the van (fighting and ambiguity).

    The driver will say he was injured before being transported (ambiguity).

    Everyone will point to someone else and no one will be held accountable because no one person is accountable because police, as is designed, are unaccountable–unless they confess to it.

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